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So employees should be able to do raunchy stand up comedy about farts and sex then? Some topics are unprofessional in a work environment. Politics has become on

So employees should be able to do raunchy stand up comedy about farts and sex then? Some topics are unprofessional in a work environment. Politics has become one of them.

jakelazaroff 5y ago
So what counts as political? Let’s take a recent polarizing topic: whether trans people should use the bathroom corresponding to their gender identity. Which bathroom do trans employees use? How can Basecamp possibly avoid that issue?
- DashAnimal 5y ago
  Couldn't Basecamp just have designated bathrooms, choose one way or the other, employees follow company guidelines and HR for dealing with complaints? Would employees discussing this internally finally solve the bathroom war and bring everyone to one side?
- digitaltrees 5y ago
  Political speech is anything related to normative discussion of public or social policy especially as it relates to government action. Simple.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - jakelazaroff 5y ago
    Okay, so let’s tweak the example a bit so it involves literal speech. Say an employee asks a coworker to refer to them with a specific set of pronouns, and the coworker refuses. Who is bringing politics into the workplace? People are upset about the policy because it gives cover to treat people’s identities (such as using they/them pronouns) as forbidden political speech.
    - ratww 5y ago
      Nobody is bringing politics to the workplace. But the person refusing to use the pronouns is kind of being an asshole? I mean, it's a workplace, not a school. You don't get to choose how you call other people, period. Other people's pronouns and names don't really matter to your day to day job, just call them whatever they want and go on with your life.
      - jakelazaroff 5y ago
        The response would be something like "I come here to work, not have their lifestyle shoved down my throat". You do see how a blanket "no politics" rule creates space for HR to turn to the other employee and say "look, you two are not gonna solve this at work so just leave the pronoun stuff at home", right?
        ratww 5y ago
        No I don't. Someone saying that name/pronoun choice is "shoving a lifestyle down their throats" is not being reasonable and is being an unreasonable asshole on purpose just to make a point. At this point you tell this person to shut the fuck up or get the fuck out. Telling someone how you should be called is not unreasonable. You're still allowed to roll eyes in your head, but calling them anything else is behaving like a petulant schoolchildren. There's no place for that in a professional environment. Just accept and move on with your life.
        jakelazaroff 5y ago
        I agree with you, but you have to realize that you’re describing a sociopolitical stance that is far from universal. See for example this comment elsewhere in the thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27002001 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27002001 Imagine that a coworker keeps misgendering you, and that commenter is your manager. Your workplace has a “no politics” rule. Who do you think will be told to stop being “political”?
        5y ago
- slaughtr 5y ago
  It reads to me - based on the founders' blogs - that the issue would then become one related to the business and thus be open for discussion. Maybe not exactly what they were thinking (Apple. Apple. Apple.) but still in the spirit of it. However, the rest of the company openly discussing another employee's bathroom dealings probably crosses lines outside of politics. I would be highly uncomfortable if that came up at my employer about some new hire.
  - jakelazaroff 5y ago
    My point was that Basecamp is forced to take a stance on the issue. But probably a better scenario to illustrate the point is an employee intentionally misgendering another. Who is “bringing politics into the workplace” — the employee who asks for a specific set of pronouns, or the employee who refuses to use them?
    - rswail 5y ago
      The employee who refuses to use them. They are being deliberately confrontational. If, in 2021, with all of the medical, psychological and sociological evidence, you refuse to accept that gender identity is an individual's choice, and to respect that choice, then you are at fault.
      - jakelazaroff 5y ago
        I mean, I strongly agree. But the point is that not everyone would.
      - disgruntledphd2 5y ago
        > with all of the medical, psychological and sociological evidence, you refuse to accept that gender identity is an individual's choice Look, I really don't want to be confrontational, but I would like to know more about this evidence. Can you provide me with some sources?
      - throwawayacc2 5y ago
        I have posted a similar comment above, I will make a similar comment here. And I am making this comment in good faith. My religious beliefs prevent me from accepting the frame of reference of the person requesting unconventional pronouns. Their frame is “my identity is different to what society imposes on me, I will ask that you treat me in the way I request, not using the societal default”. My frame is “God has made Adam and Eve, a man and a woman. They are not interchangeable, by asking me to accept interchanges, you are asking me to go again my religious beliefs and commit sin”. I am asking this sincerely. Why must I give in to accommodate the other instead of the other way around? Why must I commit sin instead of the other accepting my religion prevents me from indulging the request?
- digitaltrees 5y ago
  Political deals with social and governmental public policy. Company bathroom policy is not political. If the company wants to solicit policy debate for a specific bathroom policy then it’s leadership can. The CEO could also issue a unilateral decision with no debate.
  - jrochkind1 5y ago
    They pretty much announced they will never want to solicit policy debate on anything ever again, is how I read it. Which is what made some employees realize the boss didn't respect them and wouldn't tolerate dissent, so they didn't respect the boss anymore, so they took the buy-out (which was in fact very kind).
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
  > Which bathroom do trans employees use? How can Basecamp possibly avoid that issue? First, working remotely solves that problem for Basecamp. You use the bathroom at your home. Second, if you are designing for an office, you have private, individual bathrooms. What happens behind a closed bathroom door, and what someone looks like behind a closed bathroom door, is nobody's business.
- WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
  Since Basecamp is a 100% remote company, the trans people can use the bathroom they have at their home.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  > How can Basecamp possibly avoid that issue? Unisex bathrooms?
marcinzm 5y ago
The policy changes go far beyond banning politics or unprofessional behavior. Unless unprofessional is defined as anything which says anything negative about management directly or indirectly in any circumstance including yearly reviews.
jonathankoren 5y ago
The idea that “politics” is a distinct idea is absurd. To use your example of sex jokes, I can very easily see the same people trying to ban “political discussions” supporting sex jokes at work. It’s just a joke! Laugh or don’t, that’s up to you, either way it’s not big deal. Just grow up and accept that there are different types of humor, and complaining about jokes is just a way to bring everyone down. Focus on your job, not the jokes. In fact, that was the very argument before sexually harassment and hostile work environments became grounds for civil lawsuits. Also, the very idea that any company is “above politics” is patently absurd. Is labor organizing political? It’s certainly about the workplace. Is advocating for a tax shelter in Delaware and Ireland political? How about advocating for removing the tax shelters? That’s certainly about the company. Nah, banning “politics” is just a way to enforce the CEO’s politics and place them above question.
- digitaltrees 5y ago
  Employees discussing politics is a different issue that a company acting in the political theater. Reducing conflict by discouraging political discussion is not necessarily about any one political perspective it may just be about keeping the workplace civil.
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  I think that's just so. In this case, what is defined as "politics" is basically "what will make the owners uncomfortable or challenge them." And well, sure, such as it ever was. They usually try to put a fancier face on it, because when you make it so blatant, well, people who have options will leave.
mrgoldenbrown 5y ago
DHH himself famously defended raunchy technical presentations like the CouchDB porn one, and also wrote about not wanting to censor himself to blend in: http://archive.ph/2013.06.25-012232/http://david.heinemeierhansson.com/posts/39-im-an-r-rated-individual http://archive.ph/2013.06.25-012232/http://david.heinemeierh...
- digitaltrees 5y ago
  Sounds like he has matured. He isn’t the first and won’t be the last to become more professional as he gets older. If that’s not what is going on here then I hope at least to show an alternative way a policy such as this could be interpreted.
- ketamine__ 5y ago
  You've posted this twice and it's really looking like a hit job. What does this have to do with no politics at work?
  - lazyasciiart 5y ago
    It seems pretty well connected to "raunchy stand up comedy about farts and sex", which was proposed by a different commenter as an analogue to politics. If you object to the analogy, perhaps you should debate it with the person who made it.
- papito 5y ago
  I wouldn't judge a person for who they were, I would judge them for who they have become. People learn and people grow. To get life experience, you need to spend... life. Back in the day when you forked a repo on Github, it said "intense forking action". Sometimes people don't TRY to be offensive, they just want to be funny. Mix in immaturity and stir. But, given my example, should we never ever use Github again?
lreeves 5y ago
Know what else is unprofessional? A list of funny ethnic names being shared around. Edit: Like even ignoring for a moment how the employees felt about this how do you think customers and prospective customers felt? It's completely inappropriate no matter how you slice it, and DHH and Jason picked this as the hill to die on. Ridiculous.
- wutbrodo 5y ago
  It's unprofessional regardless, but I don't believe it was ethnic names in particular: > current employees were so mortified by the practice that none of them would give me a single example of a name on the list. One invoked the sorts of names Bart Simpson used to use when prank calling Moe the Bartender: Amanda Hugginkiss, Seymour Butz, Mike Rotch. > Many of the names were of American or European origin. But others were Asian, or African, and eventually the list — titled “Best Names Ever” — began to make people uncomfortable. What once had felt like an innocent way to blow off steam, amid the ongoing cultural reckoning over speech and corporate responsibility, increasingly looked inappropriate, and often racist. [1] [1] From the link dang shared, above: https://www.platformer.news/p/-what-really-happened-at-basecamp https://www.platformer.news/p/-what-really-happened-at-basec...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jrochkind1 5y ago
I don't think that's what I wrote, no?

So employees should be able to do raunchy stand up comedy about farts and sex then? Some topics are unprofessional in a work environment. Politics has become one of them.

jakelazaroff 5y ago

So what counts as political? Let’s take a recent polarizing topic: whether trans people should use the bathroom corresponding to their gender identity. Which bathroom do trans employees use? How can Basecamp possibly avoid that issue?

DashAnimal 5y ago
Couldn't Basecamp just have designated bathrooms, choose one way or the other, employees follow company guidelines and HR for dealing with complaints? Would employees discussing this internally finally solve the bathroom war and bring everyone to one side?
digitaltrees 5y ago
Political speech is anything related to normative discussion of public or social policy especially as it relates to government action. Simple.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jakelazaroff 5y ago
  Okay, so let’s tweak the example a bit so it involves literal speech. Say an employee asks a coworker to refer to them with a specific set of pronouns, and the coworker refuses. Who is bringing politics into the workplace? People are upset about the policy because it gives cover to treat people’s identities (such as using they/them pronouns) as forbidden political speech.
  - ratww 5y ago
    Nobody is bringing politics to the workplace. But the person refusing to use the pronouns is kind of being an asshole? I mean, it's a workplace, not a school. You don't get to choose how you call other people, period. Other people's pronouns and names don't really matter to your day to day job, just call them whatever they want and go on with your life.
    - jakelazaroff 5y ago
      The response would be something like "I come here to work, not have their lifestyle shoved down my throat". You do see how a blanket "no politics" rule creates space for HR to turn to the other employee and say "look, you two are not gonna solve this at work so just leave the pronoun stuff at home", right?
      - ratww 5y ago
        No I don't. Someone saying that name/pronoun choice is "shoving a lifestyle down their throats" is not being reasonable and is being an unreasonable asshole on purpose just to make a point. At this point you tell this person to shut the fuck up or get the fuck out. Telling someone how you should be called is not unreasonable. You're still allowed to roll eyes in your head, but calling them anything else is behaving like a petulant schoolchildren. There's no place for that in a professional environment. Just accept and move on with your life.
        jakelazaroff 5y ago
        I agree with you, but you have to realize that you’re describing a sociopolitical stance that is far from universal. See for example this comment elsewhere in the thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27002001 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27002001 Imagine that a coworker keeps misgendering you, and that commenter is your manager. Your workplace has a “no politics” rule. Who do you think will be told to stop being “political”?
        5y ago
slaughtr 5y ago
It reads to me - based on the founders' blogs - that the issue would then become one related to the business and thus be open for discussion. Maybe not exactly what they were thinking (Apple. Apple. Apple.) but still in the spirit of it. However, the rest of the company openly discussing another employee's bathroom dealings probably crosses lines outside of politics. I would be highly uncomfortable if that came up at my employer about some new hire.
- jakelazaroff 5y ago
  My point was that Basecamp is forced to take a stance on the issue. But probably a better scenario to illustrate the point is an employee intentionally misgendering another. Who is “bringing politics into the workplace” — the employee who asks for a specific set of pronouns, or the employee who refuses to use them?
  - rswail 5y ago
    The employee who refuses to use them. They are being deliberately confrontational. If, in 2021, with all of the medical, psychological and sociological evidence, you refuse to accept that gender identity is an individual's choice, and to respect that choice, then you are at fault.
    - jakelazaroff 5y ago
      I mean, I strongly agree. But the point is that not everyone would.
    - disgruntledphd2 5y ago
      > with all of the medical, psychological and sociological evidence, you refuse to accept that gender identity is an individual's choice Look, I really don't want to be confrontational, but I would like to know more about this evidence. Can you provide me with some sources?
    - throwawayacc2 5y ago
      I have posted a similar comment above, I will make a similar comment here. And I am making this comment in good faith. My religious beliefs prevent me from accepting the frame of reference of the person requesting unconventional pronouns. Their frame is “my identity is different to what society imposes on me, I will ask that you treat me in the way I request, not using the societal default”. My frame is “God has made Adam and Eve, a man and a woman. They are not interchangeable, by asking me to accept interchanges, you are asking me to go again my religious beliefs and commit sin”. I am asking this sincerely. Why must I give in to accommodate the other instead of the other way around? Why must I commit sin instead of the other accepting my religion prevents me from indulging the request?
digitaltrees 5y ago
Political deals with social and governmental public policy. Company bathroom policy is not political. If the company wants to solicit policy debate for a specific bathroom policy then it’s leadership can. The CEO could also issue a unilateral decision with no debate.
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  They pretty much announced they will never want to solicit policy debate on anything ever again, is how I read it. Which is what made some employees realize the boss didn't respect them and wouldn't tolerate dissent, so they didn't respect the boss anymore, so they took the buy-out (which was in fact very kind).
RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
> Which bathroom do trans employees use? How can Basecamp possibly avoid that issue? First, working remotely solves that problem for Basecamp. You use the bathroom at your home. Second, if you are designing for an office, you have private, individual bathrooms. What happens behind a closed bathroom door, and what someone looks like behind a closed bathroom door, is nobody's business.
WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
Since Basecamp is a 100% remote company, the trans people can use the bathroom they have at their home.
Aeolun 5y ago
> How can Basecamp possibly avoid that issue? Unisex bathrooms?

marcinzm 5y ago

The policy changes go far beyond banning politics or unprofessional behavior. Unless unprofessional is defined as anything which says anything negative about management directly or indirectly in any circumstance including yearly reviews.

jonathankoren 5y ago

The idea that “politics” is a distinct idea is absurd. To use your example of sex jokes, I can very easily see the same people trying to ban “political discussions” supporting sex jokes at work. It’s just a joke! Laugh or don’t, that’s up to you, either way it’s not big deal. Just grow up and accept that there are different types of humor, and complaining about jokes is just a way to bring everyone down. Focus on your job, not the jokes. In fact, that was the very argument before sexually harassment and hostile work environments became grounds for civil lawsuits. Also, the very idea that any company is “above politics” is patently absurd. Is labor organizing political? It’s certainly about the workplace. Is advocating for a tax shelter in Delaware and Ireland political? How about advocating for removing the tax shelters? That’s certainly about the company. Nah, banning “politics” is just a way to enforce the CEO’s politics and place them above question.

digitaltrees 5y ago
Employees discussing politics is a different issue that a company acting in the political theater. Reducing conflict by discouraging political discussion is not necessarily about any one political perspective it may just be about keeping the workplace civil.
jrochkind1 5y ago
I think that's just so. In this case, what is defined as "politics" is basically "what will make the owners uncomfortable or challenge them." And well, sure, such as it ever was. They usually try to put a fancier face on it, because when you make it so blatant, well, people who have options will leave.

mrgoldenbrown 5y ago

DHH himself famously defended raunchy technical presentations like the CouchDB porn one, and also wrote about not wanting to censor himself to blend in: http://archive.ph/2013.06.25-012232/http://david.heinemeierhansson.com/posts/39-im-an-r-rated-individual http://archive.ph/2013.06.25-012232/http://david.heinemeierh...

digitaltrees 5y ago
Sounds like he has matured. He isn’t the first and won’t be the last to become more professional as he gets older. If that’s not what is going on here then I hope at least to show an alternative way a policy such as this could be interpreted.
ketamine__ 5y ago
You've posted this twice and it's really looking like a hit job. What does this have to do with no politics at work?
- lazyasciiart 5y ago
  It seems pretty well connected to "raunchy stand up comedy about farts and sex", which was proposed by a different commenter as an analogue to politics. If you object to the analogy, perhaps you should debate it with the person who made it.
papito 5y ago
I wouldn't judge a person for who they were, I would judge them for who they have become. People learn and people grow. To get life experience, you need to spend... life. Back in the day when you forked a repo on Github, it said "intense forking action". Sometimes people don't TRY to be offensive, they just want to be funny. Mix in immaturity and stir. But, given my example, should we never ever use Github again?

lreeves 5y ago

Know what else is unprofessional? A list of funny ethnic names being shared around. Edit: Like even ignoring for a moment how the employees felt about this how do you think customers and prospective customers felt? It's completely inappropriate no matter how you slice it, and DHH and Jason picked this as the hill to die on. Ridiculous.

wutbrodo 5y ago
It's unprofessional regardless, but I don't believe it was ethnic names in particular: > current employees were so mortified by the practice that none of them would give me a single example of a name on the list. One invoked the sorts of names Bart Simpson used to use when prank calling Moe the Bartender: Amanda Hugginkiss, Seymour Butz, Mike Rotch. > Many of the names were of American or European origin. But others were Asian, or African, and eventually the list — titled “Best Names Ever” — began to make people uncomfortable. What once had felt like an innocent way to blow off steam, amid the ongoing cultural reckoning over speech and corporate responsibility, increasingly looked inappropriate, and often racist. [1] [1] From the link dang shared, above: https://www.platformer.news/p/-what-really-happened-at-basecamp https://www.platformer.news/p/-what-really-happened-at-basec...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jrochkind1 5y ago

I don't think that's what I wrote, no?