24 ms·

Physical media lets you have privacy without logging when you watch media, what media you consume, how many times you consume it, or how long you consume it. Yo

by lrvick 6y ago

Physical media lets you have privacy without logging when you watch media, what media you consume, how many times you consume it, or how long you consume it. You can enjoy it offline, and in 20 years long after the studio that licensed it is gone. You can give it to a friend or loan it out. Or sell it. It is yours. Meanwhile DRM media we pay full price for, or if the content is only available via streaming we pay for it indefinitely. In neither case are we assured access a decade from now on different devices and we certainly don't get any privacy as studios track every second we consume. Worse, when big companies decide it is not profitable enough to keep "purchased" data around anymore, they just cut it loose. Try opening a book from the Microsoft eBook store. It will fail because they closed down the DRM servers. The books stopped working. PlayStation 3 store? Wii store? Same story. You can no longer access your purchases. Literally the only way to get the same freedoms with modern digital media we had with physical media, is piracy. We got scammed.

teachingassist 6y ago
> Wii store? Same story. You can no longer access your purchases. Not really. You can still play games purchased at the Wii Shop, you just can't re-download them. [Edited to note: Apparently you can re-download or transfer to a Wii U] That's not meaningfully different from having one physical copy: you can use the physical copy until the point that it's worn out.
- SCHiM 6y ago
  The difference between the time it takes physical copies to wear out is much much longer than the time it takes $company to decide that it's time to force everyone to buy the next latest-and-greatest. I've got NES cartridges from the 80s or 90s still working.
  - teachingassist 6y ago
    > I've got NES cartridges from the 80s or 90s still working. And I've got Switch cartridges that are dependent on Nintendo's continued online support. My point was that a physical Wii still works and is still a physical object, so it serves the same functional purpose here as individual NES cartridges.
- lrvick 6y ago
  "...for the time being you may continue to re-download content you have purchased or transfer that content from a Wii system to a Wii U system. Be aware that these features will eventually end at a future date." https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/27560/~/wii-shop-channel-discontinuation https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/... It happened recently so there is a grace period to download final copies of a game, but if your console dies and you want to transfer games to another unit you get off eBay in a few years, you are SOL.
  - teachingassist 6y ago
    > if your console dies and you want to transfer games to another unit you get off eBay in a few years, you are SOL. Again, this is not functionally different than your cartridge dying. If your NES cartridge dies, you can replace it with a second-hand copy, or you're SOL. The same. You're saying that there's a consumer benefit to a console-cartridge system being modular (such that either module can be replaced when desired, rather than needing to replace them as a package), but I don't think this has any bearing on ownership rights, nor any of the other points that you claimed. At least, not in the case of the Wii Shop.
    - lrvick 6y ago
      Large game collections are of much more value than a console, and consoles are more complex and have a much higher failure rate. Particularly if it is a console vs a simple media like a Wii game optical disc that is well taken care of. Maybe I had 100 $40 games on my $100 console. Console breaks, I lose all games. With physical media: One game breaks, I lose one game. One console breaks, I lose one console. Way less risk. Also I can't sell or transfer the digital copies to friends or family. Lock-in digitals are not at all equivalent rights of physical copies.
    - jimktrains2 6y ago
      For cartridge roms and pressed CDs the failure rate is much, much lower than the console and the expected life span much longer. Not to mention it's often possible to back those mediums up and play the backups or original media on another console.
SCHiM 6y ago
Do you think it'd be a good idea to force companies to open source abandonware? We could claw back space from copyright laws, and force companies to remove DRM schemes, open source DRM-ed copyright, servers and any/all assets required to run "the store" locally. This is analogous to right to repair, DRM "breaking" your property should be banned.
- dataflow 6y ago
  How would you define abandonware?
  - SCHiM 6y ago
    I don't think I have the full definition. But if you think about online games, it becomes abandonware if you can no longer log into the game servers? Or if your product is dependent on DRM, then is becomes abandonware when the DRM servers shut down. I think different classes of media will require different definitions of when they become abandonware, but I think we'll mostly know it when we see it.
    - dataflow 6y ago
      Your definitions are better than what I was imagining, but I think they might still have rather significant edge cases & loopholes in reality. To give some examples off the top of my head: What if (say) access ends up varying across jurisdictions? What if they keep the servers running, but start charging for them? What if the company wants to sell to someone in another jurisdiction? etc.
  - iso1631 6y ago
    I would require copyright holders to renew their copyright. 5 years for free, then $1 for the 6th year, $2 for the 7th, $4 for the 8th, $8 for the 9th, $1m for the 25th, etc.
    - ziml77 6y ago
      Not every copyright holder is a massive corporation. Artists produce many pieces per year. That would cost them a lot to keep copyrights.
wildpeaks 6y ago
This is why supporting DRM-free stores is important (e.g. Bandcamp for music and GOG for games).
- alpaca128 6y ago
  Are there similar platforms for buying ebooks? I like ebooks but I'm not comfortable with all the layers of DRM involved in it.
  - lrvick 6y ago
    I looked and looked and looked for an option here, and almost pulled the trigger on book scanning gear. Eventually I gave up realizing it is an extraordinary effort to personally rip books just to have drm-free digital copies. Instead I built a floor-to-ceiling bookshelf and filled it. I read ink on slices of dead trees now, like a barbarian.
    - throws23577 6y ago
      That's one of my dreams, floor to ceiling bookshelves filled with books. Can't you try 'Calibre' [1] instead of paid book scanning gear? It's GPL. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calibre_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calibre_(software)
      - lrvick 6y ago
        That means buying the DRM copies in the first place, further contributing to that system. Also it is a PITA. Pretty much all e-paper readers are proprietary and track all reading too which is a second order problem.
        Qwertious 6y ago
        IMO the long-term solution is attaching an author-payment system widget to pirate sites. It's not illegal to pay authors, so a payment system can't be DMCA'd, and pirate websites pop back up like weeds and can't realistically be stamped out. Magnet links are way too portable for that and anyone can spin up a new VPS with 100MB or so of data (the size of TPB's db IIRC) to keep on going.
beckman466 6y ago
> Physical media lets you have privacy without logging when you watch media, what media you consume, how many times you consume it, or how long you consume it. I am so excited for my great-great-great-great ... grandchildren to find a layer of plastic DVDs in the earth’s crust 25 generations from now /s. Seriously, Blu ray discs and DVDs are such a waste of resources.
- lrvick 6y ago
  As long as the disk still exists /somewhere/, a digital copy you ripped from it is legal to keep and backup for personal use indefinitely, and transfer to a new owner of the physical copy. One of your many rights if you -actually- own a copy of media. Many sites offer DRM-Free music and books without needing to have a redundant physical copy laying around, but in video media this is extremely rare, and that is a problem.
  - iso1631 6y ago
    > As long as the disk still exists /somewhere/, a digital copy you ripped from it is legal to keep and backup for personal use indefinitely, and transfer to a new owner of the physical copy. Depends on your jurisdiction. Ripping a dvd or bluray in the first place would be illegal in the states. Any type of format shifting (including say CD to mp3) is illegal in the UK - even if you did buy a drm free WAV, unless the copyright holder explicitly gives you permission to copy it to your phone, or another computer, you're stuck.
    - lrvick 6y ago
      This is hotly debated in the US, I will grant, but it seems -most- US lawyers agree personal ripping of "encrypted" DVDs is Fair Use. https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/is-it-legal-to-rip-a-dvd-for-personal-use--551306.html https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/is-it-legal-to-rip-a-dvd-... Some like to claim DMCA could be used to prosecute someone for bypassing the encryption on a DVD for personal backups but this has, to my knowledge, never been tested in court when an individual defendant was purely using it for personal backups. There has been a case in favor of DMCA seeking to restrict the release of selling products that allow users to to this: https://www.eff.org/cases/realnetworks-v-dvd-cca-realdvd-case https://www.eff.org/cases/realnetworks-v-dvd-cca-realdvd-cas... That was an insane call, and it is a pity they didn't appeal as AFAICT. A similar issue to this was challenged recently with DMCA being used to stop the distribution of the open source youtube-dl tool making the same anti-circumvention claims but in the end this fizzled out as having no merit. If anyone from Hollywood really wants to test this in court I will happily publish a video of myself ripping one of their DVDs that I purchased for personal use. It would not be a good look for them to to anything about it, and would bet a -lot- that they lose. Still, I would like to see this chilling effect gray zone be put to rest so people are not scared to use their rights.
qohen 6y ago
Relevant XKCD (from 2008): https://xkcd.com/488/ https://xkcd.com/488/
criley2 6y ago
Physical media doesn't automatically provide privacy. There are players which do track what blu-rays you put in them. Blu-ray players are internet enabled and include advertisements, which obviously can have tracking as well. Also you are tracked by the banks and stores you make the purchase from. You bought a Blu-Ray at Target on a Discover card. Target tracked it and sold it. Discover tracked it and sold it. Companies batched that together and added it to the same profile that Netflix updated. You still got tracked. Physical media also includes A LOT of DRM as well. You called digital streams "DRM media", which is a weird phrase considering all physical media uses DRM as well. I think you're remembering some rose-tinted view of physical medias past, not discussing the reality of physical media in 2021. It's weird that you're so inaccurate with these terms and concepts, it's almost like you have an agenda >Literally the only way to get the same freedoms with modern digital media we had with physical media, is piracy. And there it is: The Pirates Rationale™ You see it a lot. An excuse in need of rationalizations, so the details get mixed up because it's not about the details, it's about the end point. Stealing media you didn't buy is literally stealing from artist and developers and no amount of crying about how the DRM on Blu-Ray is more OK than the DRM on Netflix will change that. This community should not be as immoral as Reddit and proudly and openly support stealing software and content that you did not, in some form, pay the artist/creator to access. If you're "pirating" things you own, consider ripping and cracking them instead, less chance of malicious code that way. But if you're using your loose understanding of these concepts to justify stealing from developers and artists, then shame on you.
- lrvick 6y ago
  I literally bought many hundreds of used CDs and had them shipped to https://murfie.com/ https://murfie.com/ to rip for me and give me FLACs automatically, because that was the only way to get lossless drm-free music I wanted legally. I even wrote a python library to automate the process since I had so much music I wanted to obtain legally that I needed bulk access. I spent thousands of dollars and many hours trying to play by the rules on this project. A: The artist got nothing. CDs were mostly used, and the artists are often no longer alive. B: Murfie went out of business and can't even afford to sort and return my discs to me. I can't prove I own my own music if challenged. It is all unsorted in a warehouse in the midwest somewhere. Am I a criminal now anyway after all that work? How many others would go that far to get a legal DRM-free music collection? In the end I still got screwed. If I could just download DRM-free music/movies/games directly, take my money. Since that is usually not a thing, what other options do people that want freedom and privacy have?
ikerdanzel 6y ago
The piracy it is. They indirectly force consumers to consider that alternative. While back during napster time, majority of people are not tech savvy. Today, even my neighbor "young" grandma knows torrenting.
GeekyBear 6y ago
> We got scammed. Personally, I had movies I had purchased years ago automatically upgraded to 4K HDR versions. That's certainly one advantage over physical disks.
- wccrawford 6y ago
  For me, the advantage is that I don't have to go find the disc and physically insert it, and deal with whatever disc was in there before. I get to just watch my movie when I want. I also don't have to physically store the discs, which is a bigger deal than it sounds like. I really don't want shelves and shelves of books and movies in my house. I have a few bookcases of our favorites, and that's it. Even better is monthly streaming services, though. Then I don't pay nearly as much and get almost all the convenience, but with the risk that any particular movie might no longer be streaming.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    > Even better is monthly streaming services, though. Then I don't pay nearly as much and get almost all the convenience, but with the risk that any particular movie might no longer be streaming. That's it for me. If I buy something now I'm looking for a DRM free version (even though are Blu Rays even DRM fee? I'm sure there's a day when the certs or licenses will expire), otherwise it's streaming services. If I never buy something from a digital store I'm not sad when it disappears.
  - lrvick 6y ago
    Former me would agree with you, but I hit my breaking point when I saw Microsoft eBooks stop working, or shows I liked pulled from streaming services. There is no permanence no matter how much I pay when media has DRM. I for one only pull dvds out of the box once ever. It is easy enough to rip DVDs or Blu-rays to a NAS and use Kodi. Sadly that option is becoming less and less possible as many shows become streaming platform exclusives. Accept the monthly fees, tracking, and proprietary devices/apps or no entertainment for you.
    - 6y ago
jgalt212 6y ago
> Physical media lets you have privacy without logging when you watch media Don't some blu ray players try to connect to the internet whenever you watch a disc? I think my PS3 used to do that.
- lrvick 6y ago
  You have identified the reason my physical media players and TVs don't get connected to the internet.
- wilsonnb3 6y ago
  PS4 and Xbox One both need to be connected the first time you watch a blu ray, I think so that Microsoft/Sony only have to pay blu ray licensing fees if you actually use the feature. Not sure about other blu ray players but I imagine those are the most common ones.
BiteCode_dev 6y ago
"The books stopped working" is a fantastic writing prompt for a dystopian novel.
- caseysoftware 6y ago
  Which could happen system-wide because they turned off the DRM servers (a la Microsoft books) or maybe you've been deemed "unacceptable" on the platform.
- lrvick 6y ago
  I have been looking for a book title to express my discontent at the state of freedom and privacy in our rapidly all digital society today and what we can do about it. There are several more cases of books being remotely disabled and I see this being used for censorship before long. ...Noted
  - ashtonbaker 6y ago
    You should check out the book "Radicalized" by Cory Doctorow! It's four short stories. The first one - "Unauthorized Bread" was published online: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
    - lrvick 6y ago
      On the way! Thanks.
- opinologo 6y ago
  Take a look at this great story from Richard Stallman: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html
  - datavirtue 6y ago
    It's chilling how much this doesn't sound rediculous.
saurik 6y ago
FWIW, there is some subtlety here with respect to "physical media", as something that otherwise looks like physical media can still have DRM annoying enough that you might not be able to have a functional player when you go to use your media 20 years later (particularly if your console has Internet access).
- don-code 6y ago
  Case in point: Terminator 2 Extreme, purchased in 2003. I figured that having the physical media meant I could play this forever long as I owned the discs. I haven't been able to play those discs since 2008, when the license servers went offline.
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    See if your local library has a copy. My library doesn't have many Blu-Rays, but the ones they do have seem to be DRM-free.
cuillevel3 6y ago
It's heartbreaking to see Nintendo Switch consoles on ebay with hundreds of dollars worth of eshops games. At that point you're selling an email address.
lmilcin 6y ago
> We got scammed. Well, depends on how you look at it and how comfortable you are forgetting about how it looked before you could buy online. I pay for convenience which is a service rather than tangible good. If I need a book for my research, I would prefer to have access to it immediately rather than wait two weeks to get it from overseas. My time is valuable and the pause on the project or inconvenience of not having the book for a week or two cost me much more than price of the book. If I want to watch a movie with my kids I am fine renting the movie for the price of the DVD even if I know I could be watching the DVD multiple times. Most times we do not re-watch movies anyway and it is worth to me to be able to do something with my kids on a whim rather than have to plan it. If I pay for Spotify I understand I don't own all those titles. But, for a price of half a CD per month I get access to as many titles as I can listen to. This lets me discover new music on a whim. Something, that was not possible when I was buying physical CDs in a music store. Also I paid A LOT more for CDs than I pay currently for access to much more music. But I agree things should be called properly without creating false impression that you own something rather than pay for a time-limited service.
- ghaff 6y ago
  I used to be somewhat skeptical of the convenience claim. A former colleague argued that the attraction of Napster was more about convenience than price which I didn't really buy. But if we look at the popularity of streaming services today versus owning even DRM-free music, that would seem to support the convenience theory. (It hasn't taken off for books to the same degree but I'd guess that's in part because the vast majority of people just don't consume enough to make an all you can eat offering work.) As perhaps both cause and effect, there's probably also something of a generational shift in which ownership of stuff you can put your hands on may just not be as appealing to many younger people, especially if they're urban dwellers without a lot of space.
  - ademup 6y ago
    Owning music is made much more difficult now that the ability to use it has been greatly diminished. Many new cars don't even come with CD players. Sure, there are work arounds, but I think that moves us beyond a measure of "convenience".
eplanit 6y ago
You're right. I've returned to buying only physical media -- haven't purchased an online format for 6 months+. I agree, we got played. About a year ago, Amazon changed the verbiage on the ui from "you own this movie" to "you purchased this movie". That was my clue and trigger to change.
- elliekelly 6y ago
  This reminds me of the widespread move to change from “private message” to “direct message” on platforms like facebook and twitter. A subtle hint in the UI as to how things really work.
  - jsjohnst 6y ago
    Twitter has always, to my knowledge, called them DMs. I’ve always hated FB messaging, despite using it out of necessity occasionally, so I can’t speak to if/when the naming scheme changed there. That said, a bunch of smaller messaging sites made that shift, so your core point is valid, I just think you overshot with your examples potentially.
- chrisfinazzo 6y ago
  An interesting exception - it is still Audible's policy to say you keep everything you've bought if you decide to cancel a subscription. This still ties those books to their app but it seems like the best we can hope for given the alternative choice. There have been at various times scripts found on GitHub, BitBucket and the rest that will convert the files to MP3, effectively breaking out of the DRM, but this has been hit or miss in my experience. My pipe dream for all of these services is still a buyout clause which would provide you with the unprotected files for a fee, but with the rise in popularity of streaming services, legally and financially, there doesn't seem to be much will to help a shrinking segment of the customer base with a niche concern. How much to charge for this would be a terrible debate, as trying to do it "at cost" per purchase - presumably the company's preference - would be heinously expensive.
  - frankish 6y ago
silicon2401 6y ago
> We got scammed Not everyone got scammed. I've exclusively purchased physical media or 'acquired' it in DRM-free ways. Piracy is one option yes, but things like GOG are a legal and DRM-free way to get media, which is why I actually buy from them. I only buy digital if I don't care about losing the media, like a movie I just want to watch at a friends place that's not available on a streaming service. Never understood why people didn't see this earlier. Thankfully many things are available digitally thanks to the work of digital archivists (aka data hoarders) who make an effort to keep media alive
HideousKojima 6y ago
>PlayStation 3 store? For what little it is worth, Sony has postponed shutting down the PS3 and PS Vita stores after backlash. The PSP store will still be shutting down this summer. Your point still stands regardless
agumonkey 6y ago
Cannot stop thinking the web was sold as a better and cheaper business model due to false understanding of digitalization as the amount of caveats is getting ridiculous. We keep having to walk on eggs for everything and get regular bad surprises.
2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
I typed a big long response and deleted it because I think that people just do not care.
- borepop 6y ago
  I relate to this energy.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
    Most users just do not care about "owning" DRM-free files. Most users don't have any clue about how to store, manage, or safeguard their DRM-free digital purchases.
    - Arrath 6y ago
      To be quite honest I'm basically in this boat. With the rationalization in the back of my mind that if Amazon were to ban my account and block access to my ebook library, or were Steam to do the same thing to my games; fuck em. I already paid for the items, I'll dust off my torrent client if I need to get them some way or another. Until such time, I have enough other stuff going on in my life that I don't particularly have the time to search for DRM-free media in my purchasing, organize and curate the collection, and so on.
    - wruza 6y ago
      It’s not their fault. We do not have even primitive means to access (except the html part) or participate in the internet, despite FOSS everything. Backups/storage? Dropbox/Google. Send a file to your buddy? Telegram/GDrive. Remote help? TeamViewer. Hosting a site? Facebook/Wix. We failed everything, and only very tech-savvy users can (and have time to) do one of the above without depending on something corporate. Imagine if every browser had UI->API connection to popular hostings (or a local pc) and could allow users (and businesses) to exchange files, documents, messages, media, etc, and also had established UIs for all of that. All these instagrams, facebooks, google services, dropboxes simply exploited OS shortcomings and stupid complexity of its operation. If a user could just tap to publish a photo, they wouldn’t need a platform/service and a separate app for that. If a user could bypass NAT, they wouldn’t need remote help services. IIRC, the top comment on Dropbox was along the lines of “will not fly, everyone can rsync/email their files for free”. Turned out nobody can. We still use corporate services to send files across the same room, because even simple file sharing still doesn’t fucking work, not to mention media-exchange/play and UIs for that. It’s not “Most users don’t have any clue ...”, it’s “All users don’t ...”.
amelius 6y ago
> We got scammed. This is what happens when a technology enters the mainstream. Average people don't care about the same things that tech-people care about. See eternal September as another example. Eventually the market always serves the "average" client best, and the more demanding people (which are usually the early adopters of a technology) aren't served so well.
- z3ncyberpunk 6y ago
  Wrong tech is a tool. Those pushing this are at fault, this is not just what happens as a natural course of technology adoption
red_trumpet 6y ago
Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/488/ https://xkcd.com/488/
javajosh 6y ago
>We got scammed. Yes, but it matters less than we think, since it mostly affects entertainment consumption. In fact, I'd argue that the amount people get burned for using DRM content is precisely enough to keep physical media alive and well for along time; and insofar as DRM enables the production of more stuff, and the inevitability that the popular stuff will "escape" thanks to piracy, that's its not that big of a deal. That said, the issues of DRM are far more vital for creator applications! When you've coupled your ability to write, communicate and earn a living to any privately controlled service that is hard to replace (and that is the very definition of the Google vs. Apple software ecosystem, to take the most important example) then you've lost something far more profound, and when things go sideways (losing your Google account, say) you won't be prepared. It is scary that so many public services require access to a smartphone, when "having a smartphone" is itself not a public service. (And no, library computers don't count. You can't install and use an app in the library computer browser.)
city41 6y ago
Physical media fails too, it's become a real problem in the retro gaming world. Optical discs start to break down and even worse optical drives wear out with no viable replacements. So piracy helps preserve physical media too.
amznthrwaway 6y ago
I love my physical media free life. I love not having to deal with storage for my collection. I love that my content got upgraded from HD to 4K. I love that I have all my movies available at both of my homes, and while traveling. I don’t give the single tiniest shit about Apple knowing that I just watched a movie. I think the odds of Apple serving me my movies in 30 years is higher than the odds of me having working dvd and blu-ray players in 30 years. Not 100% in either case, but I’ll roll the dice. I didn’t get scammed. I got a more convenient life. If I had a magic wand, I’d make it so I could cheaply re-sell content that I’m done with, but it’s not a bad trade off.
mfer 6y ago
> Physical media lets you have privacy without logging when you watch media, what media you consume, how many times you consume it, or how long you consume it. Quick note, smart TVs when using the smart features capture this information and send it to the manufacturer or their partner. The manufacturers often sell it. It subsidizes the cost of the TV. Using physical media does not mean your viewing isn't being monitored.
holtalanm 6y ago
this is why, whenever I can, i buy games from GoG instead of Steam. and purchase paper books rather than digital if at all possible. Is there a digital book seller that doesn't use DRM?
zepto 6y ago
> Physical media lets you have privacy without logging when you watch media, what media you consume, how many times you consume it, or how long you consume it. You can enjoy it offline, and in 20 years long after the studio that licensed it is gone. If you mean books, then yes. If you mean DVDs, then no - many TVs will report what you are watching back to the manufacturer.
zerocrates 6y ago
You can still download purchases from the PS3 store; in fact you can still buy things from it (but only because of an outcry when Sony announced they were closing it). I'm pretty sure you can still download past purchases from the Wii store too. Of course, those kinds of "we're keeping the servers up after the store is closed" situations are necessarily limited so it's just a matter of time. As you say, once the calculus of remaining users and the reputational damage of shutting down gets small enough then it'll happen. On the other hand, Playstation has a worse set of problems going on: systems apparently need to phone home if their CMOS battery dies or is replaced, and if those servers aren't around anymore or you have no internet, even physical copies don't play. (As far as I know this is just about resetting the clock but it's still a network dependency.)
- chungy 6y ago
  > I'm pretty sure you can still download past purchases from the Wii store too. Correct, at least for now. You haven't actually been able to buy anything since 2019. In my opinion, this was reason enough to find a complete archive of all the Wii Shop files and just go through the library to find the gems. It might be technically illegal, but the only legal process of obtaining any of these games is finding a Wii that happened to have a particular game already installed on it. Instead of wasting money and acquiring dozens of otherwise-identical consoles, I opt for the preservation (formerly piracy) route.
chrisshroba 6y ago
I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I was wondering if you have a source on the claim that studios know every second you watch one of their films. Specifically, I was under the impression that Apple wasn't phoning home with users' watching habits. Do you have a source on that? (I'd like to update my mental model if so)
- kdmdmdmmdmd 6y ago
  In cases where you actually downloaded the content, check the end-user license agreement of iOS and macOS. I think if you read this, as you’re required to do, you will find that they explicitly state thais when they say they declaring their rights to track this kind of consumption for market purposes and to enforce law.
neilv 6y ago
FWIW, Sony just backtracked on the PS3 and Vita store shutdowns, for now (but still moving forward with PSP store shutdown, last I heard): https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2021/04/20/sony-isnt-closing-down-the-ps3-and-ps-vita-stores-after-all-for-now/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2021/04/20/sony-isnt-c... I agree that there's been some highly questionable shutdowns of DRM and content servers by a few major companies, later disabling things that they claimed customers were buying. It seems we're lacking sufficient regulatory/judicial disincentives for companies to hoover up much of the market for selling content products, then fly-by-night shutdown of the DRM and content servers that they'd intentionally made part of the products.
- lrvick 6y ago
  IMO if someone wants to shut down distribution of DRM media, then they should grant users blanket license to own a single copy in whatever format they wish. If that means they are protected from legal recourse for obtaining a single pirated copy, that works. Else, they have to do the work to distribute DRM free copies until every user has one, since they changed the terms of ownership.
nomel 6y ago
Almost all of my optical media from around the year 2000 oxidized and stopped working. I've lost more CDs, DVDs, and blue rays to scratches than I care to admit. Many of my old photos and books were destroyed with some water damage. Much of it was due to improper storage, but that's where the very real value of not having something physical or on site comes from. When I get a choice between cloud and physical, I now always buy cloud from the largest, stable, cloud distributors (Amazon or Apple, never Google or Microsoft). I will pay more if needed. It's a valuable service to me to not have to babysit a movie/book/photo. I've personally never lost anything to DRM, but I've lost dozens of physical media, over the years, for one reason or another. Freedom is great, but the freedom of not having to lug things around with me is the freedom I would rather pay for. But I'm the type of person that gets terrified when I see someone's DVD /Blueray collection that covers a wall, "I hope you have homeowners insurance".
- lrvick 6y ago
  This is a real shame. I encourage anyone with physical media to make digital backups right away in case the media becomes unreadable down the road. Then the original media, readable or not, is just a physical license certificate that sits on a shelf. In the case of blu-rays or DVDs be sure you rip them by simply doing analog MITM recording in a custom LCD controller just after the DRM decryption is done so you don't break DRM circumvention laws. For sure avoid using any of the really good open source tools that can get you identical copies in a shorter period of time. That would be illegal.
  - nomel 6y ago
    I’ve known a few people that had all of their photos backed up on USB flash drives. Once their main drives eventually died they quickly leaned that flash drives have a limited unpowered shelf life. I’ve seen family members cry. I tell everyone to use a real cloud backup services, rather than a home grown backups that everyone forgets to refresh.
causality0 6y ago
We need consumer digital rights. Any device, service, or license that depends on an external server should be required to carry an expiration date that defines the minimum length of time for which the maker is willing to support it. Failure to render that support should result in liability for a full refund of the purchase price. The other day I saw a dusty copy of Tabula Rasa on the shelf at Walmart. That game shut down twelve years ago.
pontifier 6y ago
I'm committed to reviving Murfie.com a digital access and remote ownership service that respects ownership of media.
- lrvick 6y ago
  I really hope that is true. This was such a step in the right direction. I would like to have a complete set of the FLAC files for the hundreds of CDs I have in your warehouse, and my original disks back. At that point I would gladly start shipping new batches of disks to be ripped to continue building my legal FLAC collection.
tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
AACS (the BluRay copy protection system) is making a lot of effort to change what physical ownership means, and I'm pretty sure many TVs and players are working on "improving" on the privacy aspects too. One of the nastier aspects is that inserting a new disk can permanently modify your drive to no longer work with your player software, because the content industry no longer trusts that software. https://hackaday.com/2014/09/08/unbricking-a-bluray-drive/ https://hackaday.com/2014/09/08/unbricking-a-bluray-drive/

by lrvick 6y ago

teachingassist 6y ago

> Wii store? Same story. You can no longer access your purchases. Not really. You can still play games purchased at the Wii Shop, you just can't re-download them. [Edited to note: Apparently you can re-download or transfer to a Wii U] That's not meaningfully different from having one physical copy: you can use the physical copy until the point that it's worn out.

SCHiM 6y ago
The difference between the time it takes physical copies to wear out is much much longer than the time it takes $company to decide that it's time to force everyone to buy the next latest-and-greatest. I've got NES cartridges from the 80s or 90s still working.
- teachingassist 6y ago
  > I've got NES cartridges from the 80s or 90s still working. And I've got Switch cartridges that are dependent on Nintendo's continued online support. My point was that a physical Wii still works and is still a physical object, so it serves the same functional purpose here as individual NES cartridges.
lrvick 6y ago
"...for the time being you may continue to re-download content you have purchased or transfer that content from a Wii system to a Wii U system. Be aware that these features will eventually end at a future date." https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/27560/~/wii-shop-channel-discontinuation https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/... It happened recently so there is a grace period to download final copies of a game, but if your console dies and you want to transfer games to another unit you get off eBay in a few years, you are SOL.
- teachingassist 6y ago
  > if your console dies and you want to transfer games to another unit you get off eBay in a few years, you are SOL. Again, this is not functionally different than your cartridge dying. If your NES cartridge dies, you can replace it with a second-hand copy, or you're SOL. The same. You're saying that there's a consumer benefit to a console-cartridge system being modular (such that either module can be replaced when desired, rather than needing to replace them as a package), but I don't think this has any bearing on ownership rights, nor any of the other points that you claimed. At least, not in the case of the Wii Shop.
  - lrvick 6y ago
    Large game collections are of much more value than a console, and consoles are more complex and have a much higher failure rate. Particularly if it is a console vs a simple media like a Wii game optical disc that is well taken care of. Maybe I had 100 $40 games on my $100 console. Console breaks, I lose all games. With physical media: One game breaks, I lose one game. One console breaks, I lose one console. Way less risk. Also I can't sell or transfer the digital copies to friends or family. Lock-in digitals are not at all equivalent rights of physical copies.
  - jimktrains2 6y ago
    For cartridge roms and pressed CDs the failure rate is much, much lower than the console and the expected life span much longer. Not to mention it's often possible to back those mediums up and play the backups or original media on another console.

SCHiM 6y ago

Do you think it'd be a good idea to force companies to open source abandonware? We could claw back space from copyright laws, and force companies to remove DRM schemes, open source DRM-ed copyright, servers and any/all assets required to run "the store" locally. This is analogous to right to repair, DRM "breaking" your property should be banned.

dataflow 6y ago
How would you define abandonware?
- SCHiM 6y ago
  I don't think I have the full definition. But if you think about online games, it becomes abandonware if you can no longer log into the game servers? Or if your product is dependent on DRM, then is becomes abandonware when the DRM servers shut down. I think different classes of media will require different definitions of when they become abandonware, but I think we'll mostly know it when we see it.
  - dataflow 6y ago
    Your definitions are better than what I was imagining, but I think they might still have rather significant edge cases & loopholes in reality. To give some examples off the top of my head: What if (say) access ends up varying across jurisdictions? What if they keep the servers running, but start charging for them? What if the company wants to sell to someone in another jurisdiction? etc.
- iso1631 6y ago
  I would require copyright holders to renew their copyright. 5 years for free, then $1 for the 6th year, $2 for the 7th, $4 for the 8th, $8 for the 9th, $1m for the 25th, etc.
  - ziml77 6y ago
    Not every copyright holder is a massive corporation. Artists produce many pieces per year. That would cost them a lot to keep copyrights.

wildpeaks 6y ago

This is why supporting DRM-free stores is important (e.g. Bandcamp for music and GOG for games).

alpaca128 6y ago
Are there similar platforms for buying ebooks? I like ebooks but I'm not comfortable with all the layers of DRM involved in it.
- lrvick 6y ago
  I looked and looked and looked for an option here, and almost pulled the trigger on book scanning gear. Eventually I gave up realizing it is an extraordinary effort to personally rip books just to have drm-free digital copies. Instead I built a floor-to-ceiling bookshelf and filled it. I read ink on slices of dead trees now, like a barbarian.
  - throws23577 6y ago
    That's one of my dreams, floor to ceiling bookshelves filled with books. Can't you try 'Calibre' [1] instead of paid book scanning gear? It's GPL. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calibre_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calibre_(software)
    - lrvick 6y ago
      That means buying the DRM copies in the first place, further contributing to that system. Also it is a PITA. Pretty much all e-paper readers are proprietary and track all reading too which is a second order problem.
      - Qwertious 6y ago
        IMO the long-term solution is attaching an author-payment system widget to pirate sites. It's not illegal to pay authors, so a payment system can't be DMCA'd, and pirate websites pop back up like weeds and can't realistically be stamped out. Magnet links are way too portable for that and anyone can spin up a new VPS with 100MB or so of data (the size of TPB's db IIRC) to keep on going.

beckman466 6y ago

> Physical media lets you have privacy without logging when you watch media, what media you consume, how many times you consume it, or how long you consume it. I am so excited for my great-great-great-great ... grandchildren to find a layer of plastic DVDs in the earth’s crust 25 generations from now /s. Seriously, Blu ray discs and DVDs are such a waste of resources.

lrvick 6y ago
As long as the disk still exists /somewhere/, a digital copy you ripped from it is legal to keep and backup for personal use indefinitely, and transfer to a new owner of the physical copy. One of your many rights if you -actually- own a copy of media. Many sites offer DRM-Free music and books without needing to have a redundant physical copy laying around, but in video media this is extremely rare, and that is a problem.
- iso1631 6y ago
  > As long as the disk still exists /somewhere/, a digital copy you ripped from it is legal to keep and backup for personal use indefinitely, and transfer to a new owner of the physical copy. Depends on your jurisdiction. Ripping a dvd or bluray in the first place would be illegal in the states. Any type of format shifting (including say CD to mp3) is illegal in the UK - even if you did buy a drm free WAV, unless the copyright holder explicitly gives you permission to copy it to your phone, or another computer, you're stuck.
  - lrvick 6y ago
    This is hotly debated in the US, I will grant, but it seems -most- US lawyers agree personal ripping of "encrypted" DVDs is Fair Use. https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/is-it-legal-to-rip-a-dvd-for-personal-use--551306.html https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/is-it-legal-to-rip-a-dvd-... Some like to claim DMCA could be used to prosecute someone for bypassing the encryption on a DVD for personal backups but this has, to my knowledge, never been tested in court when an individual defendant was purely using it for personal backups. There has been a case in favor of DMCA seeking to restrict the release of selling products that allow users to to this: https://www.eff.org/cases/realnetworks-v-dvd-cca-realdvd-case https://www.eff.org/cases/realnetworks-v-dvd-cca-realdvd-cas... That was an insane call, and it is a pity they didn't appeal as AFAICT. A similar issue to this was challenged recently with DMCA being used to stop the distribution of the open source youtube-dl tool making the same anti-circumvention claims but in the end this fizzled out as having no merit. If anyone from Hollywood really wants to test this in court I will happily publish a video of myself ripping one of their DVDs that I purchased for personal use. It would not be a good look for them to to anything about it, and would bet a -lot- that they lose. Still, I would like to see this chilling effect gray zone be put to rest so people are not scared to use their rights.

qohen 6y ago

Relevant XKCD (from 2008): https://xkcd.com/488/ https://xkcd.com/488/

criley2 6y ago

Physical media doesn't automatically provide privacy. There are players which do track what blu-rays you put in them. Blu-ray players are internet enabled and include advertisements, which obviously can have tracking as well. Also you are tracked by the banks and stores you make the purchase from. You bought a Blu-Ray at Target on a Discover card. Target tracked it and sold it. Discover tracked it and sold it. Companies batched that together and added it to the same profile that Netflix updated. You still got tracked. Physical media also includes A LOT of DRM as well. You called digital streams "DRM media", which is a weird phrase considering all physical media uses DRM as well. I think you're remembering some rose-tinted view of physical medias past, not discussing the reality of physical media in 2021. It's weird that you're so inaccurate with these terms and concepts, it's almost like you have an agenda >Literally the only way to get the same freedoms with modern digital media we had with physical media, is piracy. And there it is: The Pirates Rationale™ You see it a lot. An excuse in need of rationalizations, so the details get mixed up because it's not about the details, it's about the end point. Stealing media you didn't buy is literally stealing from artist and developers and no amount of crying about how the DRM on Blu-Ray is more OK than the DRM on Netflix will change that. This community should not be as immoral as Reddit and proudly and openly support stealing software and content that you did not, in some form, pay the artist/creator to access. If you're "pirating" things you own, consider ripping and cracking them instead, less chance of malicious code that way. But if you're using your loose understanding of these concepts to justify stealing from developers and artists, then shame on you.

lrvick 6y ago
I literally bought many hundreds of used CDs and had them shipped to https://murfie.com/ https://murfie.com/ to rip for me and give me FLACs automatically, because that was the only way to get lossless drm-free music I wanted legally. I even wrote a python library to automate the process since I had so much music I wanted to obtain legally that I needed bulk access. I spent thousands of dollars and many hours trying to play by the rules on this project. A: The artist got nothing. CDs were mostly used, and the artists are often no longer alive. B: Murfie went out of business and can't even afford to sort and return my discs to me. I can't prove I own my own music if challenged. It is all unsorted in a warehouse in the midwest somewhere. Am I a criminal now anyway after all that work? How many others would go that far to get a legal DRM-free music collection? In the end I still got screwed. If I could just download DRM-free music/movies/games directly, take my money. Since that is usually not a thing, what other options do people that want freedom and privacy have?

ikerdanzel 6y ago

The piracy it is. They indirectly force consumers to consider that alternative. While back during napster time, majority of people are not tech savvy. Today, even my neighbor "young" grandma knows torrenting.

GeekyBear 6y ago

> We got scammed. Personally, I had movies I had purchased years ago automatically upgraded to 4K HDR versions. That's certainly one advantage over physical disks.

wccrawford 6y ago
For me, the advantage is that I don't have to go find the disc and physically insert it, and deal with whatever disc was in there before. I get to just watch my movie when I want. I also don't have to physically store the discs, which is a bigger deal than it sounds like. I really don't want shelves and shelves of books and movies in my house. I have a few bookcases of our favorites, and that's it. Even better is monthly streaming services, though. Then I don't pay nearly as much and get almost all the convenience, but with the risk that any particular movie might no longer be streaming.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  > Even better is monthly streaming services, though. Then I don't pay nearly as much and get almost all the convenience, but with the risk that any particular movie might no longer be streaming. That's it for me. If I buy something now I'm looking for a DRM free version (even though are Blu Rays even DRM fee? I'm sure there's a day when the certs or licenses will expire), otherwise it's streaming services. If I never buy something from a digital store I'm not sad when it disappears.
- lrvick 6y ago
  Former me would agree with you, but I hit my breaking point when I saw Microsoft eBooks stop working, or shows I liked pulled from streaming services. There is no permanence no matter how much I pay when media has DRM. I for one only pull dvds out of the box once ever. It is easy enough to rip DVDs or Blu-rays to a NAS and use Kodi. Sadly that option is becoming less and less possible as many shows become streaming platform exclusives. Accept the monthly fees, tracking, and proprietary devices/apps or no entertainment for you.
  - 6y ago

jgalt212 6y ago

> Physical media lets you have privacy without logging when you watch media Don't some blu ray players try to connect to the internet whenever you watch a disc? I think my PS3 used to do that.

lrvick 6y ago
You have identified the reason my physical media players and TVs don't get connected to the internet.
wilsonnb3 6y ago
PS4 and Xbox One both need to be connected the first time you watch a blu ray, I think so that Microsoft/Sony only have to pay blu ray licensing fees if you actually use the feature. Not sure about other blu ray players but I imagine those are the most common ones.

BiteCode_dev 6y ago

"The books stopped working" is a fantastic writing prompt for a dystopian novel.

caseysoftware 6y ago
Which could happen system-wide because they turned off the DRM servers (a la Microsoft books) or maybe you've been deemed "unacceptable" on the platform.
lrvick 6y ago
I have been looking for a book title to express my discontent at the state of freedom and privacy in our rapidly all digital society today and what we can do about it. There are several more cases of books being remotely disabled and I see this being used for censorship before long. ...Noted
- ashtonbaker 6y ago
  You should check out the book "Radicalized" by Cory Doctorow! It's four short stories. The first one - "Unauthorized Bread" was published online: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
  - lrvick 6y ago
    On the way! Thanks.
opinologo 6y ago
Take a look at this great story from Richard Stallman: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html
- datavirtue 6y ago
  It's chilling how much this doesn't sound rediculous.

saurik 6y ago

FWIW, there is some subtlety here with respect to "physical media", as something that otherwise looks like physical media can still have DRM annoying enough that you might not be able to have a functional player when you go to use your media 20 years later (particularly if your console has Internet access).

don-code 6y ago
Case in point: Terminator 2 Extreme, purchased in 2003. I figured that having the physical media meant I could play this forever long as I owned the discs. I haven't been able to play those discs since 2008, when the license servers went offline.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  See if your local library has a copy. My library doesn't have many Blu-Rays, but the ones they do have seem to be DRM-free.

cuillevel3 6y ago

It's heartbreaking to see Nintendo Switch consoles on ebay with hundreds of dollars worth of eshops games. At that point you're selling an email address.

lmilcin 6y ago

> We got scammed. Well, depends on how you look at it and how comfortable you are forgetting about how it looked before you could buy online. I pay for convenience which is a service rather than tangible good. If I need a book for my research, I would prefer to have access to it immediately rather than wait two weeks to get it from overseas. My time is valuable and the pause on the project or inconvenience of not having the book for a week or two cost me much more than price of the book. If I want to watch a movie with my kids I am fine renting the movie for the price of the DVD even if I know I could be watching the DVD multiple times. Most times we do not re-watch movies anyway and it is worth to me to be able to do something with my kids on a whim rather than have to plan it. If I pay for Spotify I understand I don't own all those titles. But, for a price of half a CD per month I get access to as many titles as I can listen to. This lets me discover new music on a whim. Something, that was not possible when I was buying physical CDs in a music store. Also I paid A LOT more for CDs than I pay currently for access to much more music. But I agree things should be called properly without creating false impression that you own something rather than pay for a time-limited service.

ghaff 6y ago
I used to be somewhat skeptical of the convenience claim. A former colleague argued that the attraction of Napster was more about convenience than price which I didn't really buy. But if we look at the popularity of streaming services today versus owning even DRM-free music, that would seem to support the convenience theory. (It hasn't taken off for books to the same degree but I'd guess that's in part because the vast majority of people just don't consume enough to make an all you can eat offering work.) As perhaps both cause and effect, there's probably also something of a generational shift in which ownership of stuff you can put your hands on may just not be as appealing to many younger people, especially if they're urban dwellers without a lot of space.
- ademup 6y ago
  Owning music is made much more difficult now that the ability to use it has been greatly diminished. Many new cars don't even come with CD players. Sure, there are work arounds, but I think that moves us beyond a measure of "convenience".

eplanit 6y ago

You're right. I've returned to buying only physical media -- haven't purchased an online format for 6 months+. I agree, we got played. About a year ago, Amazon changed the verbiage on the ui from "you own this movie" to "you purchased this movie". That was my clue and trigger to change.

elliekelly 6y ago
This reminds me of the widespread move to change from “private message” to “direct message” on platforms like facebook and twitter. A subtle hint in the UI as to how things really work.
- jsjohnst 6y ago
  Twitter has always, to my knowledge, called them DMs. I’ve always hated FB messaging, despite using it out of necessity occasionally, so I can’t speak to if/when the naming scheme changed there. That said, a bunch of smaller messaging sites made that shift, so your core point is valid, I just think you overshot with your examples potentially.
chrisfinazzo 6y ago
An interesting exception - it is still Audible's policy to say you keep everything you've bought if you decide to cancel a subscription. This still ties those books to their app but it seems like the best we can hope for given the alternative choice. There have been at various times scripts found on GitHub, BitBucket and the rest that will convert the files to MP3, effectively breaking out of the DRM, but this has been hit or miss in my experience. My pipe dream for all of these services is still a buyout clause which would provide you with the unprotected files for a fee, but with the rise in popularity of streaming services, legally and financially, there doesn't seem to be much will to help a shrinking segment of the customer base with a niche concern. How much to charge for this would be a terrible debate, as trying to do it "at cost" per purchase - presumably the company's preference - would be heinously expensive.
- frankish 6y ago

silicon2401 6y ago

> We got scammed Not everyone got scammed. I've exclusively purchased physical media or 'acquired' it in DRM-free ways. Piracy is one option yes, but things like GOG are a legal and DRM-free way to get media, which is why I actually buy from them. I only buy digital if I don't care about losing the media, like a movie I just want to watch at a friends place that's not available on a streaming service. Never understood why people didn't see this earlier. Thankfully many things are available digitally thanks to the work of digital archivists (aka data hoarders) who make an effort to keep media alive

HideousKojima 6y ago

>PlayStation 3 store? For what little it is worth, Sony has postponed shutting down the PS3 and PS Vita stores after backlash. The PSP store will still be shutting down this summer. Your point still stands regardless

agumonkey 6y ago

Cannot stop thinking the web was sold as a better and cheaper business model due to false understanding of digitalization as the amount of caveats is getting ridiculous. We keep having to walk on eggs for everything and get regular bad surprises.

2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago

I typed a big long response and deleted it because I think that people just do not care.

borepop 6y ago
I relate to this energy.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
  Most users just do not care about "owning" DRM-free files. Most users don't have any clue about how to store, manage, or safeguard their DRM-free digital purchases.
  - Arrath 6y ago
    To be quite honest I'm basically in this boat. With the rationalization in the back of my mind that if Amazon were to ban my account and block access to my ebook library, or were Steam to do the same thing to my games; fuck em. I already paid for the items, I'll dust off my torrent client if I need to get them some way or another. Until such time, I have enough other stuff going on in my life that I don't particularly have the time to search for DRM-free media in my purchasing, organize and curate the collection, and so on.
  - wruza 6y ago
    It’s not their fault. We do not have even primitive means to access (except the html part) or participate in the internet, despite FOSS everything. Backups/storage? Dropbox/Google. Send a file to your buddy? Telegram/GDrive. Remote help? TeamViewer. Hosting a site? Facebook/Wix. We failed everything, and only very tech-savvy users can (and have time to) do one of the above without depending on something corporate. Imagine if every browser had UI->API connection to popular hostings (or a local pc) and could allow users (and businesses) to exchange files, documents, messages, media, etc, and also had established UIs for all of that. All these instagrams, facebooks, google services, dropboxes simply exploited OS shortcomings and stupid complexity of its operation. If a user could just tap to publish a photo, they wouldn’t need a platform/service and a separate app for that. If a user could bypass NAT, they wouldn’t need remote help services. IIRC, the top comment on Dropbox was along the lines of “will not fly, everyone can rsync/email their files for free”. Turned out nobody can. We still use corporate services to send files across the same room, because even simple file sharing still doesn’t fucking work, not to mention media-exchange/play and UIs for that. It’s not “Most users don’t have any clue ...”, it’s “All users don’t ...”.

amelius 6y ago

> We got scammed. This is what happens when a technology enters the mainstream. Average people don't care about the same things that tech-people care about. See eternal September as another example. Eventually the market always serves the "average" client best, and the more demanding people (which are usually the early adopters of a technology) aren't served so well.

z3ncyberpunk 6y ago
Wrong tech is a tool. Those pushing this are at fault, this is not just what happens as a natural course of technology adoption

red_trumpet 6y ago

Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/488/ https://xkcd.com/488/

javajosh 6y ago

>We got scammed. Yes, but it matters less than we think, since it mostly affects entertainment consumption. In fact, I'd argue that the amount people get burned for using DRM content is precisely enough to keep physical media alive and well for along time; and insofar as DRM enables the production of more stuff, and the inevitability that the popular stuff will "escape" thanks to piracy, that's its not that big of a deal. That said, the issues of DRM are far more vital for creator applications! When you've coupled your ability to write, communicate and earn a living to any privately controlled service that is hard to replace (and that is the very definition of the Google vs. Apple software ecosystem, to take the most important example) then you've lost something far more profound, and when things go sideways (losing your Google account, say) you won't be prepared. It is scary that so many public services require access to a smartphone, when "having a smartphone" is itself not a public service. (And no, library computers don't count. You can't install and use an app in the library computer browser.)

city41 6y ago

Physical media fails too, it's become a real problem in the retro gaming world. Optical discs start to break down and even worse optical drives wear out with no viable replacements. So piracy helps preserve physical media too.

amznthrwaway 6y ago

I love my physical media free life. I love not having to deal with storage for my collection. I love that my content got upgraded from HD to 4K. I love that I have all my movies available at both of my homes, and while traveling. I don’t give the single tiniest shit about Apple knowing that I just watched a movie. I think the odds of Apple serving me my movies in 30 years is higher than the odds of me having working dvd and blu-ray players in 30 years. Not 100% in either case, but I’ll roll the dice. I didn’t get scammed. I got a more convenient life. If I had a magic wand, I’d make it so I could cheaply re-sell content that I’m done with, but it’s not a bad trade off.

mfer 6y ago

> Physical media lets you have privacy without logging when you watch media, what media you consume, how many times you consume it, or how long you consume it. Quick note, smart TVs when using the smart features capture this information and send it to the manufacturer or their partner. The manufacturers often sell it. It subsidizes the cost of the TV. Using physical media does not mean your viewing isn't being monitored.

holtalanm 6y ago

this is why, whenever I can, i buy games from GoG instead of Steam. and purchase paper books rather than digital if at all possible. Is there a digital book seller that doesn't use DRM?

zepto 6y ago

> Physical media lets you have privacy without logging when you watch media, what media you consume, how many times you consume it, or how long you consume it. You can enjoy it offline, and in 20 years long after the studio that licensed it is gone. If you mean books, then yes. If you mean DVDs, then no - many TVs will report what you are watching back to the manufacturer.

zerocrates 6y ago

You can still download purchases from the PS3 store; in fact you can still buy things from it (but only because of an outcry when Sony announced they were closing it). I'm pretty sure you can still download past purchases from the Wii store too. Of course, those kinds of "we're keeping the servers up after the store is closed" situations are necessarily limited so it's just a matter of time. As you say, once the calculus of remaining users and the reputational damage of shutting down gets small enough then it'll happen. On the other hand, Playstation has a worse set of problems going on: systems apparently need to phone home if their CMOS battery dies or is replaced, and if those servers aren't around anymore or you have no internet, even physical copies don't play. (As far as I know this is just about resetting the clock but it's still a network dependency.)

chungy 6y ago
> I'm pretty sure you can still download past purchases from the Wii store too. Correct, at least for now. You haven't actually been able to buy anything since 2019. In my opinion, this was reason enough to find a complete archive of all the Wii Shop files and just go through the library to find the gems. It might be technically illegal, but the only legal process of obtaining any of these games is finding a Wii that happened to have a particular game already installed on it. Instead of wasting money and acquiring dozens of otherwise-identical consoles, I opt for the preservation (formerly piracy) route.

chrisshroba 6y ago

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I was wondering if you have a source on the claim that studios know every second you watch one of their films. Specifically, I was under the impression that Apple wasn't phoning home with users' watching habits. Do you have a source on that? (I'd like to update my mental model if so)

kdmdmdmmdmd 6y ago
In cases where you actually downloaded the content, check the end-user license agreement of iOS and macOS. I think if you read this, as you’re required to do, you will find that they explicitly state thais when they say they declaring their rights to track this kind of consumption for market purposes and to enforce law.

neilv 6y ago

FWIW, Sony just backtracked on the PS3 and Vita store shutdowns, for now (but still moving forward with PSP store shutdown, last I heard): https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2021/04/20/sony-isnt-closing-down-the-ps3-and-ps-vita-stores-after-all-for-now/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2021/04/20/sony-isnt-c... I agree that there's been some highly questionable shutdowns of DRM and content servers by a few major companies, later disabling things that they claimed customers were buying. It seems we're lacking sufficient regulatory/judicial disincentives for companies to hoover up much of the market for selling content products, then fly-by-night shutdown of the DRM and content servers that they'd intentionally made part of the products.

lrvick 6y ago
IMO if someone wants to shut down distribution of DRM media, then they should grant users blanket license to own a single copy in whatever format they wish. If that means they are protected from legal recourse for obtaining a single pirated copy, that works. Else, they have to do the work to distribute DRM free copies until every user has one, since they changed the terms of ownership.

nomel 6y ago

Almost all of my optical media from around the year 2000 oxidized and stopped working. I've lost more CDs, DVDs, and blue rays to scratches than I care to admit. Many of my old photos and books were destroyed with some water damage. Much of it was due to improper storage, but that's where the very real value of not having something physical or on site comes from. When I get a choice between cloud and physical, I now always buy cloud from the largest, stable, cloud distributors (Amazon or Apple, never Google or Microsoft). I will pay more if needed. It's a valuable service to me to not have to babysit a movie/book/photo. I've personally never lost anything to DRM, but I've lost dozens of physical media, over the years, for one reason or another. Freedom is great, but the freedom of not having to lug things around with me is the freedom I would rather pay for. But I'm the type of person that gets terrified when I see someone's DVD /Blueray collection that covers a wall, "I hope you have homeowners insurance".

lrvick 6y ago
This is a real shame. I encourage anyone with physical media to make digital backups right away in case the media becomes unreadable down the road. Then the original media, readable or not, is just a physical license certificate that sits on a shelf. In the case of blu-rays or DVDs be sure you rip them by simply doing analog MITM recording in a custom LCD controller just after the DRM decryption is done so you don't break DRM circumvention laws. For sure avoid using any of the really good open source tools that can get you identical copies in a shorter period of time. That would be illegal.
- nomel 6y ago
  I’ve known a few people that had all of their photos backed up on USB flash drives. Once their main drives eventually died they quickly leaned that flash drives have a limited unpowered shelf life. I’ve seen family members cry. I tell everyone to use a real cloud backup services, rather than a home grown backups that everyone forgets to refresh.

causality0 6y ago

We need consumer digital rights. Any device, service, or license that depends on an external server should be required to carry an expiration date that defines the minimum length of time for which the maker is willing to support it. Failure to render that support should result in liability for a full refund of the purchase price. The other day I saw a dusty copy of Tabula Rasa on the shelf at Walmart. That game shut down twelve years ago.

pontifier 6y ago

I'm committed to reviving Murfie.com a digital access and remote ownership service that respects ownership of media.

lrvick 6y ago
I really hope that is true. This was such a step in the right direction. I would like to have a complete set of the FLAC files for the hundreds of CDs I have in your warehouse, and my original disks back. At that point I would gladly start shipping new batches of disks to be ripped to continue building my legal FLAC collection.

tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago

AACS (the BluRay copy protection system) is making a lot of effort to change what physical ownership means, and I'm pretty sure many TVs and players are working on "improving" on the privacy aspects too. One of the nastier aspects is that inserting a new disk can permanently modify your drive to no longer work with your player software, because the content industry no longer trusts that software. https://hackaday.com/2014/09/08/unbricking-a-bluray-drive/ https://hackaday.com/2014/09/08/unbricking-a-bluray-drive/