6 ms·

I assume engineering positions are on the top bracket of salary distribution. If not even this is enough to pursue home ownership, what kind of people are able

by lbrito 6y ago

I assume engineering positions are on the top bracket of salary distribution. If not even this is enough to pursue home ownership, what kind of people are able to afford a house? Honest question.

almoehi 6y ago
The general assumption you make is wrong - it’s not like in North americas. There are eng jobs in the top bracket, but the big majority isn’t.
Traubenfuchs 6y ago
Lawyers, consultants, doctors, couples and don‘t forget about those who inherit some money and those who are happy with a 300k single apartment.
nicoburns 6y ago
> If not even this is enough to pursue home ownership, what kind of people are able to afford a house? Honest question. Yeah, nobody can. At least not without a huge mortgage. That's why house prices are one of the biggest political issues in Europe.
ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>what kind of people are able to afford a house The kind where both partners have top jobs (less common) or receive inheritance (most common).
rm445 6y ago
A couple who are both in a good income bracket?
estaseuropano 6y ago
Price/sq meter varies between 100-2000€, so it really depends on your region, lifestyle and choices. If you have a normal salary (or both working) you can afford a small house. Mortgages also tend to be reasonable in Germany.
- archi42 6y ago
  I think the 100 is a typo? :P [as in "... varies between 100-2000€..."] I'm currently looking for a house in SW Germany, near the french border. I'd be happy if prices would max out at 2000€/m². I can not renovate a full building (both time and skill-wise), so - including necessary improvements - houses we're looking at start at about 1800€/m² and surpass 2200€/m². And we're not talking about "center of town" here or even "built after 1990". More like "neighboring municipality" or "no way I move so close to the Autobahn Zubringer". Obviously Munich or Berlin are much more expensive, and "middle of nowhere" (like in "also no or little tech jobs") is cheaper.
  - corty 6y ago
    I don't think it is a typo. There are areas out in the sticks where nobody wants to move (because no internet, no mobile reception, no public transport, next city is 50km away, next supermarket 20km), where 100€/m² is possible. But anything marginally close to a railway track, Autobahn or federal road or any bigger city at all is far more expensive.
    - archi42 6y ago
      I ask due to a mixture of doubt, but also curiosity: Can you point to areas with prices in the 100Euro/m² range? For a house that's suited for living, and not destruction? My grandma's house might sell for that range (~200 Euro/m²), but it has 120m², was built at or before 1900 (as a poor farmers house) and there have been no meaningful improvements since the 1970s. So, as sad as it is: Best thing one can do is scap the house and build a new one. But then it's cheaper/easier to just buy some empty land. That town is pretty much "Arsch der Welt", though they now have 50MBit/s internet since a few years. Next city (a small Kreisstadt) has multiple super markets and is 20km away. Mobile reception in the town is okay, I think they just skipped 3G for a decade and now partially swap 2G for LTE. Public transport to/from the Gymnasium [45m bus drive] is three times a day: Going there in the morning, and returning for 13 and 18 o'clock (so pupils can get to and from school for both the regular 6 lesson days and the longer 10 lesson days). For anything else you need a car; an electric car might work, since for most interesting hacker jobs you only need a total range of maybe 150km per day (outliers in both directions apply). OTOH, even if people might seem a bit skeptical of newcomers at first, they turn out to be super friendly. After all, it's easy to know everyone by name if you're just 250 people. Where I live (Saarland) the "Bodenrichtwert"[0] alone is usually between 80 and 120 Euro for the "affordable" areas I looked at. So little chance getting more than a ruin for 100 Euro/m². [0] For non-Germans: The "Bodenrichtwert" is the average price per m² of "raw land", that is, excluding improvements like houses. It is updated every 2 years to include recent sales in an area.
frockington1 6y ago
With negative interest rates, debt is incredibly cheap. People are probably able to leverage themselves more than in North America
- the-dude 6y ago
  Is this your experience, or an assumption? German mortages are known for the requirement to bring plenty money of your own.
wink 6y ago
Of course my sample size is limited, but except in some rare circumstances where I live (Munich) people don't just buy or build a house before they're 40-50 unless they got money from their parents. Even with a job in tech. The pay absolutely looks great when viewed from a perspective of having less, but if you're actually saving up for a house and want to stay here and not live somewhere remotely, it's really hard. But this is one of the most expensive cities. You can be lucky and be living in a small town 50-100km outside and if you don't have to commute daily, it's completely reasonable to buy a house (on rates) in your late 20s.
namelosw 6y ago
It's one of the outstanding problems of the current world. Not only in Germany, but there are also even crazier countries that most people can't afford to buy a small apartment their whole life. Old houses belong to older generations, and new houses are bought by rich people. Young people don't stand a chance, for some cities even not with a lifelong mortgage - unless they live in countries like Singapore which explicitly tackled this problem.
- kalnins 6y ago
  How did Singapore tackle it?
  - HDMI_Cable 6y ago
    I believe it was a combination of two factors (I'm not Singaporean so it would be nice if someone could correct me). Most of the housing units are owned by the government and are leased out to prospective owners based on a pseudo-waiting list type system for a fixed term (50 years?), and Singapore tends to build more housing than the west.
mustafa_pasi 6y ago
> I assume engineering positions are on the top bracket of salary distribution. No, not really. Unlike in the US, other professions still make more to much more. Engineering pays same to slightly more. Tenured professors make more than most SWEs, but there are some SWEs who make more than that. Lawyers and notaries make much more. Doctors of course make much more. I bet architects make more as well but this one I have not checked. Any credentialed financial job makes at least as much. Managers in any industry will make more than any typical SWE (being a manager is how you typically break into the six figure range). But to answer your question, mortgages are affordable and most people rent.
- Tarsul 6y ago
  if we're talking Germany then architects don't earn a lot. Some do but many of them earn less than people in administration in big companies (so less than 60k). Mechanical engineering and IT (Engineers) earn comparatively high in Germany; yes doctors and professors earn more (which is not surprising, or maybe only to people in SV?) but aside from that you don't have a lot of people who earn more. Actually, most lawyers earn less than 60k€ (seems pretty much like a winner takes all market). If you're looking from an American perspective the wages of teachers in Germany are impressive (especially since they don't pay much in taxes), around 60k€ (and dont have to pay 15% in health care nor 10% for their pension like usual workers!) so they are easily in the top 20% wages for Germany.
Spooky23 6y ago
Engineering is always a boom/bust. Germany doesn't have local industries that have the need for the wacky salaries being paid in some verticals. You might remember American Standard advertising toilets that we re-engineered for efficiency by aerospace engineers. There's a reason why late-90s aerospace engineers pivoted to toilet architecture. (Hint: Not a passion for the throne.)
mratsim 6y ago
Same in France especially Paris. A decent home (say 80 m²) is at least 700k€ at the moment. Only people who bought a decade ago, work in Finance or as a notaries or sold shares in a successful startup can afford it.
- maigret 6y ago
  I think now the prices are more expensive in Germany overall, although there is less variation... Paris is very expensive it's true. But you'll be damned to find a decent home under 500k in the whole South Germany. And they are not nearly as nice as the old french houses. I'm really contemplating relocating or buying something in France at the moment.
cortesoft 6y ago
People who already own another home they are selling.
tsss 6y ago
> what kind of people are able to afford a house? - People with 30+ year mortgages - People living in the middle of nowhere who will work at the same crappy company for the rest of their lives (or lose everything when they are let go) - People who commute 2h per day - People who inherit at least 100k - People who bought their first house 10 or 15 years ago and now think they're invincible because real estate prices have exploded
csomar 6y ago
1- By living with roommates and renting a room (sometimes half a room). 2- By taking painfully long commutes to cheaper locations. 3- By living with parents/partner. This is not an option for most people, but probably what makes moving to a job a difficult situation. > what kind of people are able to afford a house? Apparently, half of Germany can't afford a home. - https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-rate-in-europe/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-ra...
- levital 6y ago
  Mind, the ownership statistics may not be fully reflective of the ability to afford a home in Germany. There's a long rental tradition in Germany with strong tenants rights.
- disabled 6y ago
  Yeah, but you can expect that your pension can pay for apartment rent and other costs of living, indefinitely.
- imtringued 6y ago
  Renting was a pretty good deal in Germany. Urbanization has caught up and its a terrible deal in major cities.
  - allendoerfer 6y ago
    Just not true. German cities are constantly listed on „bubble“ lists, because property prices are rising way faster than rents. When you buy property in Frankfurt or Munich, you are betting on further price increases without any hope of profitability through renting it out.
Blumfid 6y ago
In the last 10 years I have seen prices and still see them here around munich 100km radius where it just gets more expensive. I ask that question and I make now nearly 6 figures. Before it was passible to buy a flat and pay it off, now prices are where you wanna sell it in 30 years or so.

by lbrito 6y ago

I assume engineering positions are on the top bracket of salary distribution. If not even this is enough to pursue home ownership, what kind of people are able to afford a house? Honest question.

almoehi 6y ago

The general assumption you make is wrong - it’s not like in North americas. There are eng jobs in the top bracket, but the big majority isn’t.

Traubenfuchs 6y ago

Lawyers, consultants, doctors, couples and don‘t forget about those who inherit some money and those who are happy with a 300k single apartment.

nicoburns 6y ago

> If not even this is enough to pursue home ownership, what kind of people are able to afford a house? Honest question. Yeah, nobody can. At least not without a huge mortgage. That's why house prices are one of the biggest political issues in Europe.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago

>what kind of people are able to afford a house The kind where both partners have top jobs (less common) or receive inheritance (most common).

rm445 6y ago

A couple who are both in a good income bracket?

estaseuropano 6y ago

Price/sq meter varies between 100-2000€, so it really depends on your region, lifestyle and choices. If you have a normal salary (or both working) you can afford a small house. Mortgages also tend to be reasonable in Germany.

archi42 6y ago
I think the 100 is a typo? :P [as in "... varies between 100-2000€..."] I'm currently looking for a house in SW Germany, near the french border. I'd be happy if prices would max out at 2000€/m². I can not renovate a full building (both time and skill-wise), so - including necessary improvements - houses we're looking at start at about 1800€/m² and surpass 2200€/m². And we're not talking about "center of town" here or even "built after 1990". More like "neighboring municipality" or "no way I move so close to the Autobahn Zubringer". Obviously Munich or Berlin are much more expensive, and "middle of nowhere" (like in "also no or little tech jobs") is cheaper.
- corty 6y ago
  I don't think it is a typo. There are areas out in the sticks where nobody wants to move (because no internet, no mobile reception, no public transport, next city is 50km away, next supermarket 20km), where 100€/m² is possible. But anything marginally close to a railway track, Autobahn or federal road or any bigger city at all is far more expensive.
  - archi42 6y ago
    I ask due to a mixture of doubt, but also curiosity: Can you point to areas with prices in the 100Euro/m² range? For a house that's suited for living, and not destruction? My grandma's house might sell for that range (~200 Euro/m²), but it has 120m², was built at or before 1900 (as a poor farmers house) and there have been no meaningful improvements since the 1970s. So, as sad as it is: Best thing one can do is scap the house and build a new one. But then it's cheaper/easier to just buy some empty land. That town is pretty much "Arsch der Welt", though they now have 50MBit/s internet since a few years. Next city (a small Kreisstadt) has multiple super markets and is 20km away. Mobile reception in the town is okay, I think they just skipped 3G for a decade and now partially swap 2G for LTE. Public transport to/from the Gymnasium [45m bus drive] is three times a day: Going there in the morning, and returning for 13 and 18 o'clock (so pupils can get to and from school for both the regular 6 lesson days and the longer 10 lesson days). For anything else you need a car; an electric car might work, since for most interesting hacker jobs you only need a total range of maybe 150km per day (outliers in both directions apply). OTOH, even if people might seem a bit skeptical of newcomers at first, they turn out to be super friendly. After all, it's easy to know everyone by name if you're just 250 people. Where I live (Saarland) the "Bodenrichtwert"[0] alone is usually between 80 and 120 Euro for the "affordable" areas I looked at. So little chance getting more than a ruin for 100 Euro/m². [0] For non-Germans: The "Bodenrichtwert" is the average price per m² of "raw land", that is, excluding improvements like houses. It is updated every 2 years to include recent sales in an area.

frockington1 6y ago

With negative interest rates, debt is incredibly cheap. People are probably able to leverage themselves more than in North America

the-dude 6y ago
Is this your experience, or an assumption? German mortages are known for the requirement to bring plenty money of your own.

wink 6y ago

Of course my sample size is limited, but except in some rare circumstances where I live (Munich) people don't just buy or build a house before they're 40-50 unless they got money from their parents. Even with a job in tech. The pay absolutely looks great when viewed from a perspective of having less, but if you're actually saving up for a house and want to stay here and not live somewhere remotely, it's really hard. But this is one of the most expensive cities. You can be lucky and be living in a small town 50-100km outside and if you don't have to commute daily, it's completely reasonable to buy a house (on rates) in your late 20s.

namelosw 6y ago

It's one of the outstanding problems of the current world. Not only in Germany, but there are also even crazier countries that most people can't afford to buy a small apartment their whole life. Old houses belong to older generations, and new houses are bought by rich people. Young people don't stand a chance, for some cities even not with a lifelong mortgage - unless they live in countries like Singapore which explicitly tackled this problem.

kalnins 6y ago
How did Singapore tackle it?
- HDMI_Cable 6y ago
  I believe it was a combination of two factors (I'm not Singaporean so it would be nice if someone could correct me). Most of the housing units are owned by the government and are leased out to prospective owners based on a pseudo-waiting list type system for a fixed term (50 years?), and Singapore tends to build more housing than the west.

mustafa_pasi 6y ago

> I assume engineering positions are on the top bracket of salary distribution. No, not really. Unlike in the US, other professions still make more to much more. Engineering pays same to slightly more. Tenured professors make more than most SWEs, but there are some SWEs who make more than that. Lawyers and notaries make much more. Doctors of course make much more. I bet architects make more as well but this one I have not checked. Any credentialed financial job makes at least as much. Managers in any industry will make more than any typical SWE (being a manager is how you typically break into the six figure range). But to answer your question, mortgages are affordable and most people rent.

Tarsul 6y ago
if we're talking Germany then architects don't earn a lot. Some do but many of them earn less than people in administration in big companies (so less than 60k). Mechanical engineering and IT (Engineers) earn comparatively high in Germany; yes doctors and professors earn more (which is not surprising, or maybe only to people in SV?) but aside from that you don't have a lot of people who earn more. Actually, most lawyers earn less than 60k€ (seems pretty much like a winner takes all market). If you're looking from an American perspective the wages of teachers in Germany are impressive (especially since they don't pay much in taxes), around 60k€ (and dont have to pay 15% in health care nor 10% for their pension like usual workers!) so they are easily in the top 20% wages for Germany.

Spooky23 6y ago

Engineering is always a boom/bust. Germany doesn't have local industries that have the need for the wacky salaries being paid in some verticals. You might remember American Standard advertising toilets that we re-engineered for efficiency by aerospace engineers. There's a reason why late-90s aerospace engineers pivoted to toilet architecture. (Hint: Not a passion for the throne.)

mratsim 6y ago

Same in France especially Paris. A decent home (say 80 m²) is at least 700k€ at the moment. Only people who bought a decade ago, work in Finance or as a notaries or sold shares in a successful startup can afford it.

maigret 6y ago
I think now the prices are more expensive in Germany overall, although there is less variation... Paris is very expensive it's true. But you'll be damned to find a decent home under 500k in the whole South Germany. And they are not nearly as nice as the old french houses. I'm really contemplating relocating or buying something in France at the moment.

cortesoft 6y ago

People who already own another home they are selling.

tsss 6y ago

> what kind of people are able to afford a house? - People with 30+ year mortgages - People living in the middle of nowhere who will work at the same crappy company for the rest of their lives (or lose everything when they are let go) - People who commute 2h per day - People who inherit at least 100k - People who bought their first house 10 or 15 years ago and now think they're invincible because real estate prices have exploded

csomar 6y ago

1- By living with roommates and renting a room (sometimes half a room). 2- By taking painfully long commutes to cheaper locations. 3- By living with parents/partner. This is not an option for most people, but probably what makes moving to a job a difficult situation. > what kind of people are able to afford a house? Apparently, half of Germany can't afford a home. - https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-rate-in-europe/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-ra...

levital 6y ago
Mind, the ownership statistics may not be fully reflective of the ability to afford a home in Germany. There's a long rental tradition in Germany with strong tenants rights.
disabled 6y ago
Yeah, but you can expect that your pension can pay for apartment rent and other costs of living, indefinitely.
imtringued 6y ago
Renting was a pretty good deal in Germany. Urbanization has caught up and its a terrible deal in major cities.
- allendoerfer 6y ago
  Just not true. German cities are constantly listed on „bubble“ lists, because property prices are rising way faster than rents. When you buy property in Frankfurt or Munich, you are betting on further price increases without any hope of profitability through renting it out.

Blumfid 6y ago

In the last 10 years I have seen prices and still see them here around munich 100km radius where it just gets more expensive. I ask that question and I make now nearly 6 figures. Before it was passible to buy a flat and pay it off, now prices are where you wanna sell it in 30 years or so.