5 ms·

As an Alumni of the University of Minnesota's program I am appalled this was even greenlit. It reflects poorly on all graduates of the program, even those uninv

by nwelna 5y ago

As an Alumni of the University of Minnesota's program I am appalled this was even greenlit. It reflects poorly on all graduates of the program, even those uninvolved. I am planning to email the department head with my disapproval as an alumni, and I am deeply sorry for the harm this caused.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
anp 5y ago
Based on my time in a university department you might want to cc whoever chairs the IRB or at least oversees its decisions for the CS department. Seems like multiple incentives and controls failed here, good on you for applying the leverage available to you.
- tw04 5y ago
  I'm genuinely curious how this was positioned to the IRB and if they were clear that what they were actually trying to accomplish was social engineering/manipulation. Being a public university, I hope at some point they address this publicly as well as list the steps they are (hopefully) taking to ensure something like this doesn't happen again. I'm also not sure how they can continue to employ the prof in question and expect the open source community to ever trust them to act in good faith going forward.
  - detaro 5y ago
    first statement + commentary from their associate department head: https://twitter.com/lorenterveen/status/1384954220705722369 https://twitter.com/lorenterveen/status/1384954220705722369
    - woofie11 5y ago
      Wow. Total sleazeball. This appears to not be his first time with using unintentional research subjects. Source: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C22&q=Loren+Terveen+wikipedia&btnG= https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C22&q=Lor... This is quite literally the first point of the Nuremberg code research ethics are based on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code#The_ten_points_of_the_Nuremberg_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code#The_ten_points_... This isn't an individual failing. This is an institutional failing. This is the sort of thing which someone ought to raise with OMB. He literally points to how Wikipedia needed to respond when he broke the rules: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_laboratory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_no...
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - fourthark 5y ago
        I didn't see any unethical work in a quick scan of the Google Scholar listing. I saw various works on collaboration in Wikipedia. What did you see that offended you?
        krageon 5y ago
        You realise that the GP went through the trouble to point out that research on people should involve consent, and that they [wikipedia] needed to release a statement saying this. What does that tell you about the situation that gave rise to that statement?
        fourthark 5y ago
        Got it, and @Tobu's comment describes the issue perfectly. Thanks!
      - Tobu 5y ago
        As far as I can tell, the papers he co-authored on Wikipedia were unlike the abuse of the kernel contribution process that started last year in that they did not involve active experiment, but passive analysis of contribution history. Doesn't mean there aren't ethical issues related to editors being human subjects, but you may want to be more specific.
- chx 5y ago
  They claim they got the IRB to say it's IRB-exempt.
  - woofie11 5y ago
    A lot of IRBs are a joke. The way I've seen Harvard, Stanford, and a few other university researchers dodge IRB review is by doing research in "private" time in collaboration with a private entity. There is no effective oversight over IRBs, so they really range quite a bit. Some are really stringent and some allow anything.
  - anp 5y ago
    Which would suggest the IRB’s oversight is broken in that institution somehow, right?
    - Tobu 5y ago
      Well, the university of Minnesota managed to escape responsibility after multiple suicides and coercion of subjects of psychiatric research. From one regent: “[this] has not risen to the level of our concern”. https://www.startribune.com/markingson-case-university-of-minnesota-can-t-regain-trust-under-current-leadership/299415621/ https://www.startribune.com/markingson-case-university-of-mi...
      - gjack905 5y ago
        Wow, very interesting read (not finished yet though), thank you. To me, this seems like it should be considered as part of UNM's trustworthiness as a whole and completely validates GKH's decision (not that any was needed).
ksec 5y ago
I am wondering if UMN will now get a bad name in Open Source and any contribution with their email will require extra care. And if this escalate to MSM Media it might also damage future employment status from UMN CS students. Edit: Looks like they made a statement. https://cse.umn.edu/cs/statement-cse-linux-kernel-research-april-21-2021 https://cse.umn.edu/cs/statement-cse-linux-kernel-research-a...
- djbebs 5y ago
  It should. Ethics begins at the top, and if the university has shown itself to be this untrustworthy then no trust can be had on them or any students they implicitly endorse. As far as I'm concerned this university and all of its alumni are radioactive.
  - binbag 5y ago
    That's a bit much, surely. I think the ethics committee probably didn't do a great job in understanding that this was human research.
  - fighterpilot 5y ago
    Their graduates have zero culpability here (unless they were involved). Your judgement of them is unfair.
    - rualca 5y ago
      Their graduates might not have been directly involved, but it's not possible to ig ore that those graduates were the product of an academic environment where this kind of behavior was not only sanctioned from the top but also defended as an adequate use of resources.
      - psds2 5y ago
        Adequate use of resources seems like a bizarre reasoning. Do you also evaluate how a candidates alma mater compensates its football staff before you hire?
tester756 5y ago
>It reflects poorly on all graduates of the program how it does?

by nwelna 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

anp 5y ago

Based on my time in a university department you might want to cc whoever chairs the IRB or at least oversees its decisions for the CS department. Seems like multiple incentives and controls failed here, good on you for applying the leverage available to you.

tw04 5y ago
I'm genuinely curious how this was positioned to the IRB and if they were clear that what they were actually trying to accomplish was social engineering/manipulation. Being a public university, I hope at some point they address this publicly as well as list the steps they are (hopefully) taking to ensure something like this doesn't happen again. I'm also not sure how they can continue to employ the prof in question and expect the open source community to ever trust them to act in good faith going forward.
- detaro 5y ago
  first statement + commentary from their associate department head: https://twitter.com/lorenterveen/status/1384954220705722369 https://twitter.com/lorenterveen/status/1384954220705722369
  - woofie11 5y ago
    Wow. Total sleazeball. This appears to not be his first time with using unintentional research subjects. Source: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C22&q=Loren+Terveen+wikipedia&btnG= https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C22&q=Lor... This is quite literally the first point of the Nuremberg code research ethics are based on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code#The_ten_points_of_the_Nuremberg_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code#The_ten_points_... This isn't an individual failing. This is an institutional failing. This is the sort of thing which someone ought to raise with OMB. He literally points to how Wikipedia needed to respond when he broke the rules: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_laboratory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_no...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - fourthark 5y ago
      I didn't see any unethical work in a quick scan of the Google Scholar listing. I saw various works on collaboration in Wikipedia. What did you see that offended you?
      - krageon 5y ago
        You realise that the GP went through the trouble to point out that research on people should involve consent, and that they [wikipedia] needed to release a statement saying this. What does that tell you about the situation that gave rise to that statement?
        fourthark 5y ago
        Got it, and @Tobu's comment describes the issue perfectly. Thanks!
    - Tobu 5y ago
      As far as I can tell, the papers he co-authored on Wikipedia were unlike the abuse of the kernel contribution process that started last year in that they did not involve active experiment, but passive analysis of contribution history. Doesn't mean there aren't ethical issues related to editors being human subjects, but you may want to be more specific.
chx 5y ago
They claim they got the IRB to say it's IRB-exempt.
- woofie11 5y ago
  A lot of IRBs are a joke. The way I've seen Harvard, Stanford, and a few other university researchers dodge IRB review is by doing research in "private" time in collaboration with a private entity. There is no effective oversight over IRBs, so they really range quite a bit. Some are really stringent and some allow anything.
- anp 5y ago
  Which would suggest the IRB’s oversight is broken in that institution somehow, right?
  - Tobu 5y ago
    Well, the university of Minnesota managed to escape responsibility after multiple suicides and coercion of subjects of psychiatric research. From one regent: “[this] has not risen to the level of our concern”. https://www.startribune.com/markingson-case-university-of-minnesota-can-t-regain-trust-under-current-leadership/299415621/ https://www.startribune.com/markingson-case-university-of-mi...
    - gjack905 5y ago
      Wow, very interesting read (not finished yet though), thank you. To me, this seems like it should be considered as part of UNM's trustworthiness as a whole and completely validates GKH's decision (not that any was needed).

ksec 5y ago

I am wondering if UMN will now get a bad name in Open Source and any contribution with their email will require extra care. And if this escalate to MSM Media it might also damage future employment status from UMN CS students. Edit: Looks like they made a statement. https://cse.umn.edu/cs/statement-cse-linux-kernel-research-april-21-2021 https://cse.umn.edu/cs/statement-cse-linux-kernel-research-a...

djbebs 5y ago
It should. Ethics begins at the top, and if the university has shown itself to be this untrustworthy then no trust can be had on them or any students they implicitly endorse. As far as I'm concerned this university and all of its alumni are radioactive.
- binbag 5y ago
  That's a bit much, surely. I think the ethics committee probably didn't do a great job in understanding that this was human research.
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  Their graduates have zero culpability here (unless they were involved). Your judgement of them is unfair.
  - rualca 5y ago
    Their graduates might not have been directly involved, but it's not possible to ig ore that those graduates were the product of an academic environment where this kind of behavior was not only sanctioned from the top but also defended as an adequate use of resources.
    - psds2 5y ago
      Adequate use of resources seems like a bizarre reasoning. Do you also evaluate how a candidates alma mater compensates its football staff before you hire?

tester756 5y ago

>It reflects poorly on all graduates of the program how it does?