5 ms·

Lots of people have talked eloquantly about the monetary greed the Super League entailed, but I think it misses the wider point, Kronke (et al) have long been p

Lots of people have talked eloquantly about the monetary greed the Super League entailed, but I think it misses the wider point, Kronke (et al) have long been pushing for a _redistribution of power_ in football, away from the 'leagues' (e.g. the Premier League, La Liga, UEFA) to the clubs and owners themselves. Which is the now the canonical model for US sports, where they're most comfortable. Another example of this is last year's "Project Big Picture"[0] in the Premier League, which was mostly led by the same owners with the same motivations. As an illustrive example, take the NFL where Roger Goodell's purpose is to serve the leagues owners. He's an instrument of their will and so's steered the NFL in a direction that benefits them the most (e.g. Goodell will always pick the path that gets them the most money). The Premier League on the other hand takes decisions that are seen by big club owners as precisely _against_ their interests (e.g. distributing TV money from foreign TV deals equally to all clubs when they claim >80% of matches watched outside the UK are of the 5-6 big clubs, the classic but reductive 'No one in Malaysia wants to watch Bolton play') [0]: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/africa/54510898 https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/africa/54510898

jonwinstanley 5y ago
Yes, the owners want their status to mean they receive more guaranteed income. But that’s not how football works. Status and brand shouldn’t matter, you get money based on your results. Most of these clubs are pretty much assured of qualification for Europe anyway, but at least they earn it by finishing in the top few places in their national league. They already have the most money, they want to get rid of the risk that they might not always do so.
kasey_junk 5y ago
But the NFL distributes all TV money equally to all teams as well even though no one in Malaysia wants to watch Tampa Bay. Further most of that money goes to the players not the club owners. How do you square that with your thesis?
- hewrin10 5y ago
  Speaking as someone from Malaysia, I would love to there be an easy way to watch NFL games here.
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    Pirating them is quite easy, though that doesn't fix the timezone problem
- ilamont 5y ago
  I think some of them would like to see Tom Brady play for Tampa Bay, especially after winning the Super Bowl. About five years ago his old team the patriots played in Mexico City’s arena to 75,000 people and it was a huge hit. This is in a country which has its own strong soccer culture.
- addicted 5y ago
  The CBA gives owners 52% of football related money and players 48%. So, no, the majority of the money does not go to players. And the way football related is defined is fairly narrow, so some obvious revenue sources (suite upgrades, parking, etc) do not fall under football related and therefore goes to the owners. Further, the vast majority of wealth the owners make is through the rapidly increasing value of their teams. At the end of the day the income is peanuts compared to the wealth and asset value appreciation that is generated by the teams.
  - rory 5y ago
    How much of that value appreciation is derived from income, vs the status symbol nature of owning a team?
  - djrogers 5y ago
    > The CBA gives owners 52% of football related money and players 48%. So, no, the majority of the money does not go to players. I think you're looking at this a bit too narrowly - every expense involved in running an NFL team comes out of that 52% that the owners "get", so none of the owners are actually seeing all 52% of that money. Please note - I'm simply responding to the specifics here - I'm not saying that owners are hard done by, in fact I believe the split should be more weighted to the players (and include roster expansion and more pay/stability for practice squad players).
- solidasparagus 5y ago
  There's only 32 NFL teams and even when the crappy ones play internationally, they draw huge crowds. And that's because it's a closed circuit so the level of play of the worst teams is much higher than the worst teams in European football. The NFL as a league is also designed to have a much higher degree of parity than European football. There are also fewer games, which increases the importance of each game. These rules are dictated by the NFL (more or less) because the goal of the league is to make the league successful by being fun to watch. The NFL might distribute money evenly, but only among the select, limited number of teams that the NFL allows to be a part of the NFL brand.
  - throw_nbvc1234 5y ago
    The "draft" plays a role in this too where the worst teams, in theory, get the best players further increasing the chance of parity. Unless those terrible teams are terrible because their management sucks and just repeatedly make terrible decisions over the years.
  - martin8412 5y ago
    Of course 32 teams will be better than the literally 10 thousands of teams in European, which all have a chance of playing at the highest level, albeit not a huge chance for most of them. My local football team is part of same pyramid as CL, despite them only playing for fun. Small local teams have risen through the ranks to the best national leagues.
dash2 5y ago
Yeah, I think this is more about power. Sky News has put this on its front page. Wonder if that's because they've invested heavily in the existing setup? I'm not sure a super league isn't a good idea. At the moment the top six or so teams in the Premiership are more or less unbeatable by those beneath them. I'd like to see more games where they play other great teams in Europe, and fewer of them beating Middlesbrough or whatever. (Or Norwich, my local team that just got promoted.)
- gmtx725 5y ago
  you say that but a complete minnow (Leicester) won the league only five years ago putting all these 'big' clubs to shame. Yes the odds are stacked in their favour but the only thing that keeps it exciting is the (small) chance of a big upset.
- flr03 5y ago
  Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool are out of the Europe spots at the moment though. I want to see the best teams playing in the Champion's League, not the wealthiest.
rizz0 5y ago
Club != Owners. The club is the people, the owners own the shares of the company. Your comment frames the situation as a "League Owner" vs "Club Owner" power struggle. That struggle is real, but it ignores the critical aspect that makes European football appealing: European football is about the clubs, the communities they represent, and cultural rivalry between communities. In essence Man City is Man City because they are not Bolton, not because Malaysians want to watch them. Reason European clubs are good is that they're intertwined with society. European football became big business, but that's not where it came from, nor what it is.
- zelos 5y ago
  > the communities they represent, and cultural rivalry between communities. This has always confused me: what's the connection between the community and the club? How does Man City 'represent' Manchester?
  - barbazoo 5y ago
    From my experience, clubs are much more connected with the community in Europe. Where I'm from, you'd have sports clubs that offer different sports at different levels. In Germany you'll find a "Sportverein (SV), Fussballclub (FC), Turn- und Sportgemeinschaft (TSG), etc" in almost every town. If it's a generic club, they'll have many sports. Eintracht Frankfurt for instance has a Bundesliga football team but they also have amateur football teams, handball teams, hockey, etc. Towns often have more than one sports club so there connection to "your" club as well. So there is a direct connection between your town and the sports club. It's the place where you sign your kid up to participate in team sports. Independent clubs aren't really a thing in Europe, for instance Bayern Munich is the team from Munich. They'll probably never be based in Berlin just because they're making them a better offer. Local clubs often have a long history, too. It's not uncommon for a local sports club to be over a hundred years old as well (TSG 1899 Hoffenheim, founded in 1899).
  - randomsearch 5y ago
    Clubs are heavily involved in their communities. They do a lot of charity and community work. Lots of players come through the club’s youth system, which usually contains a disproportionate number of local kids. The history of the clubs and cities are intertwined. It’s just a massive cultural deal. Can’t properly explain it but the clubs are part of it people’s identity, which often they inherit from their parents.
frockington1 5y ago
As an American, not having 15 leagues with the worlds best players spread out seems like a great idea. I'd rather watch the worlds best players play each other every week than have to wait a full year for the Champions league
walshemj 5y ago
If the US had relegation from baseball and football it would improve the sport. At the moment there is no penalty for coming last in the AFL or NFL :-) oh and next year you have first pick of the best new players
- mandevil 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_le... The NFL, MLB, and the NBA are all higher revenue sports than the EPL. Even the NHL brings in more revenue than every other sports league than the big 3 North American sports + EPL- 30% more than La Liga or Bundesliga. So if revenues for sports without relegation are so much greater than the revenues for sports with relegation, why would it improve the sport?
  - prionassembly 5y ago
    The best music is also not the one that draws the higher revenues.
  - anthk 5y ago
    Now add up all the major leagues in Europe and sum it up again.
    - mandevil 5y ago
      Sure, but let's go by # of teams: The top 58 teams in promotion-relegation system: (EPL+La Liga+Bundesliga- I'll even through in UCL since it's mostly the same core teams driving the attention) 15.5 billion euros The top 62 teams in limited entry leagues: (NFL+NBA) 21.1 billion euros (You can even add in Ligue 1 and Serie A and you STILL don't get to just what the NFL and NBA pull in, setting aside MLB and the NHL. MLS, which does not do promotion/relegation, and is clearly the fifth biggest sport in the US, pulls in ~as much as the EFL.) In terms of money, which is a rough but reasonable proxy for fan interest, limited entry leagues seem to make more money.
  - duncanawoods 5y ago
iso1631 5y ago
It's another example of Americans exporting their culture, and not even recognising how they are different. It's there in travel, it's there on the internet, it's there in sport. It's not deliberate arrogance, it just comes from the same core belief that thinks the USA is the best in everything {insert newsroom speech}

jonwinstanley 5y ago

Yes, the owners want their status to mean they receive more guaranteed income. But that’s not how football works. Status and brand shouldn’t matter, you get money based on your results. Most of these clubs are pretty much assured of qualification for Europe anyway, but at least they earn it by finishing in the top few places in their national league. They already have the most money, they want to get rid of the risk that they might not always do so.

kasey_junk 5y ago

But the NFL distributes all TV money equally to all teams as well even though no one in Malaysia wants to watch Tampa Bay. Further most of that money goes to the players not the club owners. How do you square that with your thesis?

hewrin10 5y ago
Speaking as someone from Malaysia, I would love to there be an easy way to watch NFL games here.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  Pirating them is quite easy, though that doesn't fix the timezone problem
ilamont 5y ago
I think some of them would like to see Tom Brady play for Tampa Bay, especially after winning the Super Bowl. About five years ago his old team the patriots played in Mexico City’s arena to 75,000 people and it was a huge hit. This is in a country which has its own strong soccer culture.
addicted 5y ago
The CBA gives owners 52% of football related money and players 48%. So, no, the majority of the money does not go to players. And the way football related is defined is fairly narrow, so some obvious revenue sources (suite upgrades, parking, etc) do not fall under football related and therefore goes to the owners. Further, the vast majority of wealth the owners make is through the rapidly increasing value of their teams. At the end of the day the income is peanuts compared to the wealth and asset value appreciation that is generated by the teams.
- rory 5y ago
  How much of that value appreciation is derived from income, vs the status symbol nature of owning a team?
- djrogers 5y ago
  > The CBA gives owners 52% of football related money and players 48%. So, no, the majority of the money does not go to players. I think you're looking at this a bit too narrowly - every expense involved in running an NFL team comes out of that 52% that the owners "get", so none of the owners are actually seeing all 52% of that money. Please note - I'm simply responding to the specifics here - I'm not saying that owners are hard done by, in fact I believe the split should be more weighted to the players (and include roster expansion and more pay/stability for practice squad players).
solidasparagus 5y ago
There's only 32 NFL teams and even when the crappy ones play internationally, they draw huge crowds. And that's because it's a closed circuit so the level of play of the worst teams is much higher than the worst teams in European football. The NFL as a league is also designed to have a much higher degree of parity than European football. There are also fewer games, which increases the importance of each game. These rules are dictated by the NFL (more or less) because the goal of the league is to make the league successful by being fun to watch. The NFL might distribute money evenly, but only among the select, limited number of teams that the NFL allows to be a part of the NFL brand.
- throw_nbvc1234 5y ago
  The "draft" plays a role in this too where the worst teams, in theory, get the best players further increasing the chance of parity. Unless those terrible teams are terrible because their management sucks and just repeatedly make terrible decisions over the years.
- martin8412 5y ago
  Of course 32 teams will be better than the literally 10 thousands of teams in European, which all have a chance of playing at the highest level, albeit not a huge chance for most of them. My local football team is part of same pyramid as CL, despite them only playing for fun. Small local teams have risen through the ranks to the best national leagues.

dash2 5y ago

Yeah, I think this is more about power. Sky News has put this on its front page. Wonder if that's because they've invested heavily in the existing setup? I'm not sure a super league isn't a good idea. At the moment the top six or so teams in the Premiership are more or less unbeatable by those beneath them. I'd like to see more games where they play other great teams in Europe, and fewer of them beating Middlesbrough or whatever. (Or Norwich, my local team that just got promoted.)

gmtx725 5y ago
you say that but a complete minnow (Leicester) won the league only five years ago putting all these 'big' clubs to shame. Yes the odds are stacked in their favour but the only thing that keeps it exciting is the (small) chance of a big upset.
flr03 5y ago
Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool are out of the Europe spots at the moment though. I want to see the best teams playing in the Champion's League, not the wealthiest.

rizz0 5y ago

Club != Owners. The club is the people, the owners own the shares of the company. Your comment frames the situation as a "League Owner" vs "Club Owner" power struggle. That struggle is real, but it ignores the critical aspect that makes European football appealing: European football is about the clubs, the communities they represent, and cultural rivalry between communities. In essence Man City is Man City because they are not Bolton, not because Malaysians want to watch them. Reason European clubs are good is that they're intertwined with society. European football became big business, but that's not where it came from, nor what it is.

zelos 5y ago
> the communities they represent, and cultural rivalry between communities. This has always confused me: what's the connection between the community and the club? How does Man City 'represent' Manchester?
- barbazoo 5y ago
  From my experience, clubs are much more connected with the community in Europe. Where I'm from, you'd have sports clubs that offer different sports at different levels. In Germany you'll find a "Sportverein (SV), Fussballclub (FC), Turn- und Sportgemeinschaft (TSG), etc" in almost every town. If it's a generic club, they'll have many sports. Eintracht Frankfurt for instance has a Bundesliga football team but they also have amateur football teams, handball teams, hockey, etc. Towns often have more than one sports club so there connection to "your" club as well. So there is a direct connection between your town and the sports club. It's the place where you sign your kid up to participate in team sports. Independent clubs aren't really a thing in Europe, for instance Bayern Munich is the team from Munich. They'll probably never be based in Berlin just because they're making them a better offer. Local clubs often have a long history, too. It's not uncommon for a local sports club to be over a hundred years old as well (TSG 1899 Hoffenheim, founded in 1899).
- randomsearch 5y ago
  Clubs are heavily involved in their communities. They do a lot of charity and community work. Lots of players come through the club’s youth system, which usually contains a disproportionate number of local kids. The history of the clubs and cities are intertwined. It’s just a massive cultural deal. Can’t properly explain it but the clubs are part of it people’s identity, which often they inherit from their parents.

frockington1 5y ago

As an American, not having 15 leagues with the worlds best players spread out seems like a great idea. I'd rather watch the worlds best players play each other every week than have to wait a full year for the Champions league

walshemj 5y ago

If the US had relegation from baseball and football it would improve the sport. At the moment there is no penalty for coming last in the AFL or NFL :-) oh and next year you have first pick of the best new players

mandevil 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_le... The NFL, MLB, and the NBA are all higher revenue sports than the EPL. Even the NHL brings in more revenue than every other sports league than the big 3 North American sports + EPL- 30% more than La Liga or Bundesliga. So if revenues for sports without relegation are so much greater than the revenues for sports with relegation, why would it improve the sport?
- prionassembly 5y ago
  The best music is also not the one that draws the higher revenues.
- anthk 5y ago
  Now add up all the major leagues in Europe and sum it up again.
  - mandevil 5y ago
    Sure, but let's go by # of teams: The top 58 teams in promotion-relegation system: (EPL+La Liga+Bundesliga- I'll even through in UCL since it's mostly the same core teams driving the attention) 15.5 billion euros The top 62 teams in limited entry leagues: (NFL+NBA) 21.1 billion euros (You can even add in Ligue 1 and Serie A and you STILL don't get to just what the NFL and NBA pull in, setting aside MLB and the NHL. MLS, which does not do promotion/relegation, and is clearly the fifth biggest sport in the US, pulls in ~as much as the EFL.) In terms of money, which is a rough but reasonable proxy for fan interest, limited entry leagues seem to make more money.
- duncanawoods 5y ago

iso1631 5y ago

It's another example of Americans exporting their culture, and not even recognising how they are different. It's there in travel, it's there on the internet, it's there in sport. It's not deliberate arrogance, it just comes from the same core belief that thinks the USA is the best in everything {insert newsroom speech}