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I think it's reasonable to argue against (such a heavy emphasis) on home ownership; but it has to apply equally. Everyone striving to own a home is a consisten

I think it's reasonable to argue against (such a heavy emphasis) on home ownership; but it has to apply equally. Everyone striving to own a home is a consistent scenario, which has pros and cons. Social housing that's owned by nobody/everybody is a consistent scenario, which has pros and cons. Having some paying rent to others who own (or, even worse, have buy-to-let mortgages), is inherently unjust.

chii 6y ago
> inherently unjust. Why is it inherently unjust? The owner paid to have the building constructed. That took upfront capital. Asking the renter to pay for the use of this capital doesn't sound unjust to me. Is renting out a car you purchased inherently unjust?
- neilparikh 6y ago
  > The owner paid to have the building constructed. Much of the rent paid in big cities is not for the construction or maintenance costs, but the land value. Did the owner construct the land?
  - chii 6y ago
    > Did the owner construct the land? The land itself had to be acquired somehow. The very first owner paid for an army to take the land from the indigenous population that "owned" it, and that "cost" is a chain that is linked all the way to today (and at every step of the transaction, somebody profits by increasing the price a bit). So either you raise another army today (at an even greater cost) to acquire the land, or you pay the asking price from the current owners.
    - neilparikh 6y ago
      Your initial claim was about the situation being just. This argument explains why and what situation we have, but you've done nothing to explain why it's just. "Raise another army or pay the price" is hardly a ringing endorsement of the fairness of the system. The key thing to note is that this isn't the only model of land ownership possible. There are other that are more fair (land value taxes and community land trusts for example). To be clear, I don't really have anything against individual landowners; it's the system that's unjust.
    - throwaway316943 6y ago
      It’s not just the acquisition of the land but also the investment in the economy that surrounds the land. All land starts out near worthless and in the middle of no where. Generations of sacrifice and investment are what turns it into a highly valuable property. That process can also reverse if the owner ceases to improve the property and invest in the community.
      - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
        >All land starts out near worthless and in the middle of no where. // No. People don't raise armies to steal land that's worthless. If you're going back to pre-history then the land near a nice river that has plenty of game, isn't predated by larger animals, and has nice fruit trees is worth way more to a person than some section of desert. If right to live on land also goes with rights to exploit resources beneath the land then disparities in value as you approach the industrial era become massive.
        throwaway316943 6y ago
        How much of that intrinsic value is still there once everything is paved?
        Viliam1234 6y ago
        There is a concept called "path dependence". Something may be important to get you from point A to point B, even if at point B you perhaps don't use it at all. You start with a place with nice fruit trees near the river, then a few people build their houses there, then someone builds roads and a port, then someone builds larger houses, then someone builds factories... and at some moment in the future, there is a huge city, but the river is poluted and the trees were cut down. There is another place with no trees and no river. Hundred years later, there is no city.
      - Smaug123 6y ago
        That's what Georgism is about: fully separating those two concepts. The land is valuable because of the community; the property is valuable because of its owner. So under Georgism, all land is held under common ownership, with the land's value being entirely taxed away from its occupier, allowing you to profit personally only by improving the property and supplying value to others thereby.
  - frockington1 6y ago
    No but he bought it when others did not. Envy is rarely going to yield better results
- chriswarbo 6y ago
  > Why is it inherently unjust? Heh, I wasn't taking a position on renting versus ownership. I said there are pros and cons of both. What is unjust is to advocate for renting, if that rent will go to an owner/landlord. After all, why should owners/landlords exist at all, if renting is apparently so good? Social housing avoids this hypocrisy, since the "owner" is not a person (or person-surrogate, like a corporation).
  - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 6y ago
    > Social housing avoids this hypocrisy, since the "owner" is not a person (or person-surrogate, like a corporation). Like the housing projects in the inner cities?
    - chriswarbo 6y ago
      Based on my (very limited) understanding of inner city housing projects in the USA, then yes. AFAIK those planning such projects did not themselves live in social housing (unlike, say, many soviet officials), hence there's still an element of hypocrisy there (note that I never claimed otherwise; I specifically chose the word "this" in the sentence you've quoted. I'll also re-re-state that I've not made any argument for or against home ownership or renting)
      - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 6y ago
        The problem is, the housing projects ended up being a major contributor to gangs in the cities. Growing up, "the projects" was a common euphemism for gang-infested ghettos, even though that likely was only true for a small portion of the projects. See here, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidized_housing_in_the_United_States#Social_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidized_housing_in_the_Unit...
        chriswarbo 6y ago
        Yes, there are pros and cons; hence why I haven't argued for or against any approach to housing (although I have been arguing against the hypocricy of someone advocating for an approach that they don't themselves follow, like non-renting landlords having renters)

chii 6y ago

> inherently unjust. Why is it inherently unjust? The owner paid to have the building constructed. That took upfront capital. Asking the renter to pay for the use of this capital doesn't sound unjust to me. Is renting out a car you purchased inherently unjust?

neilparikh 6y ago
> The owner paid to have the building constructed. Much of the rent paid in big cities is not for the construction or maintenance costs, but the land value. Did the owner construct the land?
- chii 6y ago
  > Did the owner construct the land? The land itself had to be acquired somehow. The very first owner paid for an army to take the land from the indigenous population that "owned" it, and that "cost" is a chain that is linked all the way to today (and at every step of the transaction, somebody profits by increasing the price a bit). So either you raise another army today (at an even greater cost) to acquire the land, or you pay the asking price from the current owners.
  - neilparikh 6y ago
    Your initial claim was about the situation being just. This argument explains why and what situation we have, but you've done nothing to explain why it's just. "Raise another army or pay the price" is hardly a ringing endorsement of the fairness of the system. The key thing to note is that this isn't the only model of land ownership possible. There are other that are more fair (land value taxes and community land trusts for example). To be clear, I don't really have anything against individual landowners; it's the system that's unjust.
  - throwaway316943 6y ago
    It’s not just the acquisition of the land but also the investment in the economy that surrounds the land. All land starts out near worthless and in the middle of no where. Generations of sacrifice and investment are what turns it into a highly valuable property. That process can also reverse if the owner ceases to improve the property and invest in the community.
    - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
      >All land starts out near worthless and in the middle of no where. // No. People don't raise armies to steal land that's worthless. If you're going back to pre-history then the land near a nice river that has plenty of game, isn't predated by larger animals, and has nice fruit trees is worth way more to a person than some section of desert. If right to live on land also goes with rights to exploit resources beneath the land then disparities in value as you approach the industrial era become massive.
      - throwaway316943 6y ago
        How much of that intrinsic value is still there once everything is paved?
        Viliam1234 6y ago
        There is a concept called "path dependence". Something may be important to get you from point A to point B, even if at point B you perhaps don't use it at all. You start with a place with nice fruit trees near the river, then a few people build their houses there, then someone builds roads and a port, then someone builds larger houses, then someone builds factories... and at some moment in the future, there is a huge city, but the river is poluted and the trees were cut down. There is another place with no trees and no river. Hundred years later, there is no city.
    - Smaug123 6y ago
      That's what Georgism is about: fully separating those two concepts. The land is valuable because of the community; the property is valuable because of its owner. So under Georgism, all land is held under common ownership, with the land's value being entirely taxed away from its occupier, allowing you to profit personally only by improving the property and supplying value to others thereby.
- frockington1 6y ago
  No but he bought it when others did not. Envy is rarely going to yield better results
chriswarbo 6y ago
> Why is it inherently unjust? Heh, I wasn't taking a position on renting versus ownership. I said there are pros and cons of both. What is unjust is to advocate for renting, if that rent will go to an owner/landlord. After all, why should owners/landlords exist at all, if renting is apparently so good? Social housing avoids this hypocrisy, since the "owner" is not a person (or person-surrogate, like a corporation).
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 6y ago
  > Social housing avoids this hypocrisy, since the "owner" is not a person (or person-surrogate, like a corporation). Like the housing projects in the inner cities?
  - chriswarbo 6y ago
    Based on my (very limited) understanding of inner city housing projects in the USA, then yes. AFAIK those planning such projects did not themselves live in social housing (unlike, say, many soviet officials), hence there's still an element of hypocrisy there (note that I never claimed otherwise; I specifically chose the word "this" in the sentence you've quoted. I'll also re-re-state that I've not made any argument for or against home ownership or renting)
    - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 6y ago
      The problem is, the housing projects ended up being a major contributor to gangs in the cities. Growing up, "the projects" was a common euphemism for gang-infested ghettos, even though that likely was only true for a small portion of the projects. See here, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidized_housing_in_the_United_States#Social_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidized_housing_in_the_Unit...
      - chriswarbo 6y ago
        Yes, there are pros and cons; hence why I haven't argued for or against any approach to housing (although I have been arguing against the hypocricy of someone advocating for an approach that they don't themselves follow, like non-renting landlords having renters)