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Most treadmills have a guard or plastic covering on the bottom that stops the tread from pulling something underneath it. From pictures, the peloton treadmill d
by rgbrenner 6y ago
Most treadmills have a guard or plastic covering on the bottom that stops the tread from pulling something underneath it. From pictures, the peloton treadmill doesnt have this... so I would guess if anything gets between the back of the device and the floor, it'll pull it under the machine.
Edit: confirmed (warning: video shows a child being injured): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onXNnlCYJ4Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onXNnlCYJ4Y
- WORMS_EAT_WORMS 6y agoMy first instinct was to assume this to be parents doing a blame-game at Peloton for their own negligence. But this actually makes sense. A child or pet gets in there it really is game over. I can imagine even if an adult somehow slips up that it would be insanely painful and difficult to free yourself -- especially at a running pace.
- richwater 6y agoWhy are you letting your children operate a machine with absolutely no supervision?
- trhway 6y agoyou don't get it - this machine is inherently dangerous even with full supervision. Check the Animats comment above.
- WORMS_EAT_WORMS 6y agoHuh? I’m not doing anything. Ultimately — yes — those parents are responsible for their kid’s death here. I agree. Horrible accident. But who cares? This isn’t a political boxing match. The machine should be safer. Both can be true. Go outside..
- ironmagma 6y agoWhat is with this obsessive victim-blaming attitude? Safety regulations are a technology, we invented them for a reason.
- PurpleFoxy 6y agoIf the user slips up they will pull the safety cutoff which is attached to their clothing which stops the treadmill.
- james_pm 6y agoLiterally nobody wears those.
- PurpleFoxy 6y agoThey don’t really get to complain that the machine didn’t stop when they fell if they didn’t wear the clip specifically made to stop that event. You can’t sue the bike company because you didn’t wear your helmet.
- whyenot 6y agoOf course you can sue the bike company, and if your foot got caught because there was no chain guard, causing you to crash and be injured in an accident, you might even win. Even if you weren't wearing a helmet.
- aidenn0 6y agoMy bike doesn't have a chain guard. If I don't tuck my laces before going for a ride I could possibly kill myself.
- ajb 6y agoYikes. Sounds like they just didn't do a safety review. Given that they are also apparently "opposing" the recall, I wouldn't trust them with a 10 foot pole now. They've put themselves in the same category as the Schlitterbahn, whose water slide decapitated a 10-year-old.
- mhh__ 6y agoMove fast and break limbs
- thathndude 6y agoYeah. I can’t believe they’re opposing this. How can you defend your design after seeing this video.
- koheripbal 6y agoI don't think they have the ability to recall all the sold equipment. This isn't the same as recalling a car by having owners drive them to the nearest dealership for a modification/repair. They are advising customers to keep the safety key out of the device to prevent kids from using it. ...and I think that makes sense. A design change is already made on their newer models, but this sort of issue exists with any treadmill, which is why they all have safety keys.
- Animats 6y agoThat's what it looks like to me, too. That's a terrible design. It's just the right height to suck a small pet under the machine and crush the animal.[1] Or a foot. Looks like Pelotron wanted a nice clean look, so they left the guards off. That looked nice in the Jetsons series in 1962.[1] But not in real life. In industry, this is called an unguarded pinch point. Classic cause of injuries and amputations. It's an OSHA violation in an industrial operation. Every other treadmill I've ever seen had substantial guarding around the pinch points. OSHA: "1910.211(d)(44): 'Pinch point' means any point other than the point of operation at which it is possible for a part of the body to be caught between the moving parts of a press or auxiliary equipment, or between moving and stationary parts of a press or auxiliary equipment or between the material and moving part or parts of the press or auxiliary equipment." [1] https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB1eJfm0.img https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB1e... [2] https://youtu.be/0JQbeCAlF6s?t=82 https://youtu.be/0JQbeCAlF6s?t=82
- thedrbrian 6y agoKinda surprised they didn’t add a weight sensor on the legs so that when something is pulled under and it lifts the base it cuts the power.
- toomuchtodo 6y agoPhotoelectric safety switch between the back legs would’ve also worked (like a garage door beam), depending on how sturdy those legs are mounted for alignment.
- jturpin 6y agoI was thinking this as well. For how much tech this thing seems to have, and for such a high price tag, they could easily justify putting, I don't know, two or three IR sensors down there.
- PurpleFoxy 6y agoThese all introduce failure points for the product. Bit of dust floats under the treadmill and now it’s not working and you have an angry customer.
- sgpl 6y agoWarning for others clicking on the link, it's pretty graphic and appears to be a video of an actual incident with the treadmill. I was expecting it to be a product demo video or something.
- TaylorAlexander 6y agoYes thankfully I clicked away but that really needs a warning.
- smnrchrds 6y agoThe video has a warning.
- smnrchrds 6y agoFor the people who stopped watching halfway through: thankfully the child survives at the end.
- 6y ago
- foepys 6y agoThis looks like a typical startup disruption approach where they wanted to build the hardware from the ground up and didn't ask industry experts why something is done the way it is.
- 1123581321 6y agoReviewing profiles of Peloton mechanical engineers suggests they employ experts, including from heavily regulated industries. It seems unlikely that this was built without discussion or research. However, it’s true that they misjudged the risk here.
- mhh__ 6y agoIn this case wouldn't it be a cultural thing for the management rather than the engineers? They're both human, but if the boss says get it done or get out, the standard is set from the top.
- 1123581321 6y agoCertainly. It would be comforting, as an engineer myself, to think that management must not have considered the problem. However, the truth is that management, design and engineering are all quite capable of trying to avoid problems, potentially to great lengths, and failing anyway.
- ironmagma 6y agoThey may employ experts, but that's a different thing entirely from listening to them.
- rconti 6y agoI'm not sure how this speculation adds to the conversation, though.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- baybal2 6y agoAny treadmill I've seen had a sensor which shuts down the mill if the tread gets jammed.
- soneil 6y agoI think that's really the damning bit - in the video shown, you can see ripples in the belt still moving towards the kid just after the sister runs off. The belt's jammed, the user's dismounted, and it's still trying to win.
- Hamuko 6y agoAt some point the treadmill actually spits the kid out. It reverses the speed for like one, two seconds when the kid was jammed and everything had stopped, but then it starts going back in its original direction and the kid gets sucked back in before he has time to get clear.
- avianlyric 6y agoYeah the Peloton does detect itself getting jammed. You can see it automatically start running backwards to unjam itself in the video, then start running forward again. Crazy to think that someone thought that was a good idea.
- userbinator 6y agoPerhaps "most" is an exaggeration, since I have one which doesn't and the comments here and images found online suggest that many others don't. IMHO that video shows negligence on the part of the parents. There was a camera there but no physical presence. Exercise equipment is dangerous if not used correctly, and although I'm one who doesn't believe in "helicopter parenting", I certainly wouldn't let my kid play with a treadmill with only a camera watching.
- js2 6y agoMy True 500 had nothing to prevent something from being pulled under it. Landice makes high end residential treadmills and their models don’t appear to either: https://www.landice.com/sites/default/files/90%20SERIES_SERVICE_MANUAL.pdf https://www.landice.com/sites/default/files/90%20SERIES_SERV... However, compared to those treadmills, the Peloton Tread+ has much larger diameter rollers and step-up height. It's also much heavier (455 lbs vs 340 lbs). It looks uniquely dangerous to me among residential treadmills. Landice L7 and L8: https://cdn.sweatband.com/Landice_L9_Club_Pro_Sports_Trainer_Treadmill_3_2000x2000.jpg https://cdn.sweatband.com/Landice_L9_Club_Pro_Sports_Trainer... Peloton Tread+: https://g.foolcdn.com/image/?url=https:%2F%2Fg.foolcdn.com%2Feditorial%2Fimages%2F621877%2Fpton-stock-peloton-stock-peloton-treadmill-recall-safety-cpsc-child-dies.jpg&w=700 https://g.foolcdn.com/image/?url=https:%2F%2Fg.foolcdn.com%2...
- HenryBemis 6y agoThank you for sharing these pictures. They clearly show the difference in height. The Landice can be a threat for a pet or can grab/scratch a foot. The Peloton clearly/visible is higher and a small child can sneak or can be pulled under it.
- trhway 6y agoon the page 90 there is visible a crossbar which prevents from pulling in under. You can also see it here https://www.treadmillreviews.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Landice-L7-Treadmill-1.png https://www.treadmillreviews.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/... Most threadmills have it, and it is hard to imagine why a one wouldn't have it.
- js2 6y agoLandice calls them deck slats and they are structural members that hold the two halves of the treadmill together. You can see that clearly on page 4 here: https://www.landice.com/sites/default/files/Install%20TreadBelt%2C%20Deck%20%26%20Impact%20Absorbers.pdf https://www.landice.com/sites/default/files/Install%20TreadB... (Aside, but I love that Landice puts their excellent technical documentation online.) If they also serve a safety purpose, great. (My True has these too, but there's about 2-3" between the horizontal bar and the belt.) The Peloton Tread+ must have the horizontal structural cross-members inside the belt. They'd have to make the side rails taller to accommodate a safety bar: https://support.onepeloton.com/hc/en-us/articles/360035933551-Slat-Belt-Sagging-Underneath-The-Tread- https://support.onepeloton.com/hc/en-us/articles/36003593355...
- rconti 6y agoYes, the video confirms what I expected from the description. And yeah, the video is a bit gruesome but apparently he was okay. We have a Peloton Treadmill (now called the Tread+, but the original one is the same as the Tread+), in fact my wife is running on it right now. If you do a Google Image Search for "treadmill", you will see most treadmills are belt-style, and often have a metal bar underneath the back, a few inches in. NOT a cover on the back -- the plastic cover is typically on the FRONT of most treadmills, which won't help with things getting sucked underneath at the back, which is where this would happen. The Tread+ is a "slat style" treadmill similar to something really high end like a $10k+ Woodway, but other brands also sell slatted style treadmills. It's definitely obvious how something can get sucked under the back of the tread, however I'm not sure how much better having a protective bar is; I really wouldn't want an arm to get sucked between the belt and a protective bar underneath, which is usually at least a few inches from the underside of the belt. And of course the Tread+ is something like 450lbs; the heavier the treadmill, the more problematic something like this is likely to be. Having it shut off when something goes under it does't really help; I'm not sure I'd want my kid to get crushed by a stationary treadmill either. Like most treadmills, the Tread has a safety key which you're supposed to wear (but not everyone does, and of course kids playing on it are not going to). Actually, I just realized the obvious answer is, if you have kids, take the safety key off when you're not using it. But, mistakes happen, and of course something can also get sucked under when a properly trained adult is using the device as well. (One of our cats took a serious blow to the head from the swinging arm of our elliptical, but he was fine; cat.) I definitely wouldn't want anything going under the pedals of our Peloton bike either; metal pedal plus speed plus flywheel mass would be a REALLY bad time. Back to the Tread, the belt stops if there's no weight on it for "a while" but I'm not sure how long; certainly it takes more than 10 seconds. And, again, you'd be left with a kid trapped under a STOPPED treadmill which is not much better. There's no particular safety for turning it on. Typically I select my profile on the touchscreen but the knobs on the side to start the belt are active before starting a class. I think they might even be active when the tablet is "on" (tap the power button on the cross bar first) but before choosing a profile. I suppose a workaround would be to require a login before turning it on, but of course this is a step most other treadmills don't have either.
- avianlyric 6y ago
- thathndude 6y agoHoly sh!t. This is indefensible. That Peloton is even trying to defend itself is asinine. They need to pull this product ASAP.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- avianlyric 6y agoWhat I find most amazing in that video is that the treadmill stalls, detects an error condition, reverses for a second, then immediately goes full pelt forward again. It’s crazy to think the treadmill has the ability to detect a potentially dangerous situation (the belt is completely jammed). But instead of shutting down, it does everything it can to keep operating and doing as much damage as possible. Peloton didn’t need to add extra guards or sensors, they just needed someone to program the damn thing to shutdown when it jams. Rather than programming it with some dangerous and stupid auto-unjam sequence.
- herpderperator 6y ago> Peloton didn't need to add extra guards or sensors, they just needed... This is a very naive comment. Substantial damage can be caused prior to the system detecting an error condition; this is no excuse for not having guards.
- koheripbal 6y agoThe good news with this is that they can deploy software updates with their treadmills, so they'll likely fix this.
- biofox 6y agoI can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, but software should never be used to compensate for unsafe hardware. That lesson should have become standard knowledge after the Therac-25 disaster, which happened as a result of replacing a hardware interlock with a software one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25
- avianlyric 6y agoSoftware is used to make hardware safe all the time. Look in any factory with automation and you’ll find hundreds Programmable Logic Controllers (PLCs) running safety critical operations, and acting as interlocks. Look inside a car, and you can find a dozen software based systems designed to make the hardware safer. E.g. Traction control, body stability systems, ABS breaking, software that decides which airbags fire in a collision, lane departure computer vision systems, air pressure alerts, engine control systems that look for unsafe operating conditions etc etc Ultimately software can be made safe. Long and rigorous software development processes and audit process are what makes it safe. Ultimately there’s nothing inherently safer about hardware safety systems, they’re engineered and suffer from human error. Proper risk assessments are always required, and safety systems should be built to match the risk. There’s no one size fits all’s. In Pelotons case, they clearly failed to assess and address the risk properly.
- ljm 6y agoTreadmills aren't child-friendly machines either, so why is this video showing two children messing around with the machine without any supervision?
- js2 6y agoI just watched the video. Every treadmill I’m familiar with has a safety key attached to a lanyard that the runner is supposed to attach to their waist band that immediacy pulls the key and deactivates the treadmill if the runner falls. I don’t know how this treadmill is still operating after the older child gets off. Maybe the key was left in place and the treadmill left turned on but that’s really f’ing dangerous. A modern treadmill should reset itself after a period of non-use and require the key to be removed and re-inserted. That’s in addition to a physical safety guard under the belt this treadmill clearly should have (see my post elsewhere in this thread comparing the size of the Peloton to another premium residential brand). This Peloton is a death machine. I didn’t realize the CSPC doesn’t have the regulatory authority to force a recall. ETA: just learned yet another thing. It’s really hard to physically reach the switch to turn it off. The switch is located under the treadmill. Wtf. See the 8 minute mark of this video: https://youtu.be/McgwmLkYJPc https://youtu.be/McgwmLkYJPc
- bikeshaving 6y agoI was a child once. I have distinct memories of playing with treadmills. Turning them on while sitting on them. Running Hot Wheels Cars on them while they’re running. The design of these treadmills is pure negligence regardless of safety keys or kill switches.
- js2 6y agoThere are advantages to large rollers, a high deck and a heavy chassis. But these are all things that make this a more dangerous machine that other residential treadmills. Peloton should reduce that risk with a physical barrier under the deck. But even with that, this treadmill should still have a safety key and an accessible (for an adult) physical on/off switch.
- koheripbal 6y agoThese treadmills also have safety keys. The mom in these cases, is leaving them in. Definitely some changes Peloton can make though.
- BrissyCoder 6y agoThis is truly terrible design and I hope the machines are recalled... but there is more than a little onus on the parents here (at least in case of the linked video - can't speak to the other incidents). If you are responsible for children that age you should be actively evaluating your home for these types of risks. Letting them play on a piece of machinery like that unsupervised is neglect imo. From the time the little girl notices something is wrong (and is presumably and making a lot of noise) there is still no adult visible after a full 35 seconds has elapsed.
- anfilt 6y agoI have seen lots of trade mills without a guard there. Just googling image shows quite a few that don't have a guard there. If the issue is the guard it's more than just peloton that then needs to revise their design. What I do find more interesting is how the treadmill is still running even after the other kid gets off. There is a reason a lot treadmills have lanyard that shuts it off.
- throwaway189262 6y agoI don't understand how they released it like that. When my mom told me about kids getting stuck I immediately said "yeah under the back right?" And I've only seen Peloton in ads. What a stupid design. They deserve to get sued into oblivion
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]