4 ms·

> In my experience Americans sort of take for granted the breadth and depth of consumer protection you enjoy. As a european, it's amusing to hear you say that

> In my experience Americans sort of take for granted the breadth and depth of consumer protection you enjoy. As a european, it's amusing to hear you say that as the majority of European countries have far, far more stringent consumer-protection regs than the US, such as mandatory 2 year warranties, distance-selling laws, legal rights to a refund or replacement, and so on. Apple's 90 day warranty is a joke when you can buy the same product, for almost the same price after factoring-in VAT, with a 2 year warranty only a 5 hour flight away...

gambiting 6y ago
And everywhere in EU sellers have to accept a return within 14 days for any online purchases, for any reason. And no, they can't charge a restocking fee. You can only be asked to pay for the postage back. And in general, the responsibility for the goods is always with the seller first, manufacturer second. If your laptop breaks and the seller says "oh the manufacturer declined warranty" then sorry, tough luck, it's the seller who has to repair/replace it now.
- vetinari 6y ago
  > within 14 days for any online purchases Almost. It does not apply to custom-made products. Apple resellers consider BTO models to be custom-made and thus not eligible for this protection. But at least they warn you upfront.
  - DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
    > Apple resellers consider BTO models to be custom-made and thus not eligible for this protection. I thought the only get-out for Apple was personalized items, namely those with laser-engraving. BTO/JIT orders where you choose from a narrow set of options (e.g. RAM size, HDD size, etc) in Apple's case probably wouldn't be BTO because they tend to pre-assemble a modest stockpile of all of the different BTO configs. Lower-volume products, like the $6000 Mac Pro might have a case, but it's not like a returned (but new, even unopened) MacPro isn't resalable...
    - vetinari 6y ago
      I was purchasing BTO MBP (I would think a popular config at that) in December and got that notice... Apple itself might not do that, but we don't have them here (not all EU countries have the presence), and they probably don't take the return from the resellers.
- pembrook 6y ago
  In the EU however, you generally are paying for that extra protection in the form of higher prices from retailers. There's no free lunch. The market isn't perfectly efficient, but it's pretty damn efficient. It's not like companies operating in countries where warranty is the law will suddenly say "welp, I guess we'll just have to accept less profit in the EU then, hopefully global consumers don't catch on!" Whether you pay for extra protections via higher prices automatically (EU) or as an a la carte add-on (US) is irrelevant. On a risk adjusted basis, the cost is the same. The EU simply cuts off the consumer's ability to take more risk for lower cost. They force you to buy the warranty every time.
  - gambiting 6y ago
    I'm honestly curious - how so? In all my adult life I have been comparing prices between EU and US and they are always about the same once you factor in taxes. Yes the VAT can make items slightly more expensive, but VAT has absolutely nothing to do with the retailers responsibility for the product, right? >>On a risk adjusted basis, the cost is the same. I'd love to see how you came to that conclusion. In EU the seller is always responsible for 2 years after sale for the product, in the US a 2 year warranty will be few hundred dollars on laptops and other expensive items. The difference is definitely not the same.
    - pembrook 6y ago
      This has been the subject of numerous academic papers. Again, it's not like the EU government has somehow fooled companies into losing money in the EU. I highly doubt you're doing true absolute calculations factoring in all the supply chain, macroeconomic, and tax considerations. The reason you can't easily compare this at a glance is complicated by currency fluctuations, shipping costs, labor costs, embedded VAT in prices vs. taxes added at purchase, VAT rebates, differences in EU warranty law vs. purchased warranties in the US, "discount" marketing tactics of American retailers vs. European retailers, everyday low prices vs. seasonal discounting, etc. Trust me when I say you're not enjoying some free lunch at the expense of corporate earnings by living in the EU. You're simply restricting consumer and entrepreneur choices, by preemptively deciding what the consumer needs. Which can be good or bad depending on the item in question. Computer hardware? Not sure we need the nanny state involved, there's healthy competition and you run the risk of stifling new business models from arising (it's no secret that Europe isn't exactly a hotbed of tech innovation). Healthcare? Now that's a different story.
- bobbylarrybobby 6y ago
  Aren’t the customers who don’t return their purchases subsidizing the cost of the ones who do? I’d much prefer to pay a restocking fee (or to have more stringent return policies) if it meant I could pay a little less up front.
  - gambiting 6y ago
    I mean...what a weird way to look at it. Yes I suppose you're right but we as a society decided that if sellers want to sell things remotely(online, through post, through telephone sales) then it's only fair that customers have the right to inspect the item and return it if they don't like it. You don't have that right if you bought the item in a physical store because you could inspect the item there.
ksec 6y ago
That is why you used to read about Apple's exceptional services. They are and only happens in the state. Such as free repair for certain thing or giving cheaper discount to repair etc. In EU and UK those services are expected. Now Apple doesn't do it. They push you to buy a new product whenever possible along with AppleCare+. Apple Retail employees dont run on commission in US ( Not sure if that is still the case). I remember someone said Apple Retail Italy runs on commission basis. I also know Apple Retail employees also has KPI based on AppleCare+ they sold in the past few years. Yes.... the whole Apple Retail experience is going against how Steve Job originally envisioning it. For Tim Cook, it is nothing more than a cost center on balance sheet.
benhurmarcel 6y ago
> when you can buy the same product, for almost the same price after factoring-in VAT Uh, not at all. Converted to USD and without tax below. Apple products are 11-16% more expensive in Europe iPhone 12: US price $699 - Europe price without VAT $807 iPhone 12 Pro Max: US price $1099 - Europe price without VAT $1256 iPad Air: US price $599 - Europe price without VAT $667 Macbook Air: US price $999 - Europe price without VAT $1126
- DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
  Where are you getting those prices from? If it's the Apple Store, which country's Apple store and original currency values are being used?
  - wolfretcrap 6y ago
    It's true I am from India, last time even after taxes, apple products were cheapest in Switzerland, other countries did charge like 5-10% more
    - benhurmarcel 6y ago
      Switzerland has a 7.7% VAT, when most of Europe has about 20%. That's on top of the prices I gave.
  - benhurmarcel 6y ago
    I used the US Apple website, and the French Apple website in that case (in €, converted to USD using WolframAlpha and accounting for 20% VAT). I've already seen in the past that the Spanish and German Apple websites have similar prices to the French one.
zepto 6y ago
My experience in Europe was that the result of those laws is businesses that operate within the letter of the law, whereas in the US they often operate more generously. For example Apple in the US let me return a first gen 12.9” iPad Pro after about 4 months and exchange it for the 9.7” version the week it came out. I would have expected a flat out no from retailers in Europe.

gambiting 6y ago

And everywhere in EU sellers have to accept a return within 14 days for any online purchases, for any reason. And no, they can't charge a restocking fee. You can only be asked to pay for the postage back. And in general, the responsibility for the goods is always with the seller first, manufacturer second. If your laptop breaks and the seller says "oh the manufacturer declined warranty" then sorry, tough luck, it's the seller who has to repair/replace it now.

vetinari 6y ago
> within 14 days for any online purchases Almost. It does not apply to custom-made products. Apple resellers consider BTO models to be custom-made and thus not eligible for this protection. But at least they warn you upfront.
- DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
  > Apple resellers consider BTO models to be custom-made and thus not eligible for this protection. I thought the only get-out for Apple was personalized items, namely those with laser-engraving. BTO/JIT orders where you choose from a narrow set of options (e.g. RAM size, HDD size, etc) in Apple's case probably wouldn't be BTO because they tend to pre-assemble a modest stockpile of all of the different BTO configs. Lower-volume products, like the $6000 Mac Pro might have a case, but it's not like a returned (but new, even unopened) MacPro isn't resalable...
  - vetinari 6y ago
    I was purchasing BTO MBP (I would think a popular config at that) in December and got that notice... Apple itself might not do that, but we don't have them here (not all EU countries have the presence), and they probably don't take the return from the resellers.
pembrook 6y ago
In the EU however, you generally are paying for that extra protection in the form of higher prices from retailers. There's no free lunch. The market isn't perfectly efficient, but it's pretty damn efficient. It's not like companies operating in countries where warranty is the law will suddenly say "welp, I guess we'll just have to accept less profit in the EU then, hopefully global consumers don't catch on!" Whether you pay for extra protections via higher prices automatically (EU) or as an a la carte add-on (US) is irrelevant. On a risk adjusted basis, the cost is the same. The EU simply cuts off the consumer's ability to take more risk for lower cost. They force you to buy the warranty every time.
- gambiting 6y ago
  I'm honestly curious - how so? In all my adult life I have been comparing prices between EU and US and they are always about the same once you factor in taxes. Yes the VAT can make items slightly more expensive, but VAT has absolutely nothing to do with the retailers responsibility for the product, right? >>On a risk adjusted basis, the cost is the same. I'd love to see how you came to that conclusion. In EU the seller is always responsible for 2 years after sale for the product, in the US a 2 year warranty will be few hundred dollars on laptops and other expensive items. The difference is definitely not the same.
  - pembrook 6y ago
    This has been the subject of numerous academic papers. Again, it's not like the EU government has somehow fooled companies into losing money in the EU. I highly doubt you're doing true absolute calculations factoring in all the supply chain, macroeconomic, and tax considerations. The reason you can't easily compare this at a glance is complicated by currency fluctuations, shipping costs, labor costs, embedded VAT in prices vs. taxes added at purchase, VAT rebates, differences in EU warranty law vs. purchased warranties in the US, "discount" marketing tactics of American retailers vs. European retailers, everyday low prices vs. seasonal discounting, etc. Trust me when I say you're not enjoying some free lunch at the expense of corporate earnings by living in the EU. You're simply restricting consumer and entrepreneur choices, by preemptively deciding what the consumer needs. Which can be good or bad depending on the item in question. Computer hardware? Not sure we need the nanny state involved, there's healthy competition and you run the risk of stifling new business models from arising (it's no secret that Europe isn't exactly a hotbed of tech innovation). Healthcare? Now that's a different story.
bobbylarrybobby 6y ago
Aren’t the customers who don’t return their purchases subsidizing the cost of the ones who do? I’d much prefer to pay a restocking fee (or to have more stringent return policies) if it meant I could pay a little less up front.
- gambiting 6y ago
  I mean...what a weird way to look at it. Yes I suppose you're right but we as a society decided that if sellers want to sell things remotely(online, through post, through telephone sales) then it's only fair that customers have the right to inspect the item and return it if they don't like it. You don't have that right if you bought the item in a physical store because you could inspect the item there.

ksec 6y ago

That is why you used to read about Apple's exceptional services. They are and only happens in the state. Such as free repair for certain thing or giving cheaper discount to repair etc. In EU and UK those services are expected. Now Apple doesn't do it. They push you to buy a new product whenever possible along with AppleCare+. Apple Retail employees dont run on commission in US ( Not sure if that is still the case). I remember someone said Apple Retail Italy runs on commission basis. I also know Apple Retail employees also has KPI based on AppleCare+ they sold in the past few years. Yes.... the whole Apple Retail experience is going against how Steve Job originally envisioning it. For Tim Cook, it is nothing more than a cost center on balance sheet.

benhurmarcel 6y ago

> when you can buy the same product, for almost the same price after factoring-in VAT Uh, not at all. Converted to USD and without tax below. Apple products are 11-16% more expensive in Europe iPhone 12: US price $699 - Europe price without VAT $807 iPhone 12 Pro Max: US price $1099 - Europe price without VAT $1256 iPad Air: US price $599 - Europe price without VAT $667 Macbook Air: US price $999 - Europe price without VAT $1126

DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
Where are you getting those prices from? If it's the Apple Store, which country's Apple store and original currency values are being used?
- wolfretcrap 6y ago
  It's true I am from India, last time even after taxes, apple products were cheapest in Switzerland, other countries did charge like 5-10% more
  - benhurmarcel 6y ago
    Switzerland has a 7.7% VAT, when most of Europe has about 20%. That's on top of the prices I gave.
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  I used the US Apple website, and the French Apple website in that case (in €, converted to USD using WolframAlpha and accounting for 20% VAT). I've already seen in the past that the Spanish and German Apple websites have similar prices to the French one.

zepto 6y ago

My experience in Europe was that the result of those laws is businesses that operate within the letter of the law, whereas in the US they often operate more generously. For example Apple in the US let me return a first gen 12.9” iPad Pro after about 4 months and exchange it for the 9.7” version the week it came out. I would have expected a flat out no from retailers in Europe.