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I'm also baffled by his position. I often think that downvotes on HN serve to reinforce conformism to an accepted set of values and ideas. Which might be okay i

by Hiopl 5y ago

I'm also baffled by his position. I often think that downvotes on HN serve to reinforce conformism to an accepted set of values and ideas. Which might be okay if, say, you want to "immunize" a community against racism, sexism or fake information, but isn't great if issues (as in politics or even in tech on a social level) are a lot more nuanced and there might be plenty of room to explore ideas off the beaten path (and no, I don't mean inane stuff like "but masks don't work" or "but it's just like the flu"). It's easy to find yourself on the receiving end of endless downvotes for something that isn't offensive but clashes with the accepted HN narrative. It makes me wish downvotes weren't a thing. I'm okay with flagging, since I mostly see comments flagged that clearly break HN's simple rules.

diob 5y ago
I agree, I've seen a lot of downvotes simply on things that aren't pro capitalism. I wish comments were used instead.
- crispyambulance 5y ago
  I'm not so worried about it. There's certain number of "tar-baby" subjects/opinions that can get someone downvoted on HN really quick... like suggesting Peter Thiel is an asshole, or saying anything negative about crazy libertarians. But HN is ALL about discussion. It's a relatively safe place to float an idea and hear some provocative opinions. The techno-libertarians don't actually bite. Stackoverflow, on the other hand, has higher stakes. People are trying to figure something out at work and running into a brick wall. If they make the mistake of posting an earnest question they make themselves vulnerable and have a good chance of being humiliated and made to feel like shit by some smug prick who's having a bad day. You really need to put on some psychological armor before attempting to question or answer on Stackoverflow. It's an intrinsically toxic environment.
  - diob 5y ago
    Case against it being all about discussion though, my original comment has been voted down for some reason. Please folks, just debate me or post a counterpoint. I think at the very least tie ability to vote down with commenting. In other words, once the user has replied to the original comment, they can vote it down if they desire. You might think this is a safe place, but I've come to just avoid commenting anything like this that might get "hive minded" into oblivion. I'm sure I'm not the only one. In that sense, it's safe place for a certain "kind" of people with a certain "kind" of opinion.
    - clairity 5y ago
      > ‘I've come to just avoid commenting anything like this that might get "hive minded" into oblivion.’ that’s exactly when you should be commenting, otherwise the community is lulled into false conformity. contentious topics require more diversity of thought and more considered words, not less. internet points don’t matter, just the food for thought that comes with broader discussions.
      - diob 5y ago
        I know, that's why I'm suggesting it be tied to commenting. No comment, no voting down available. The reason why I don't bother as much anymore is I assume if my overall points get too low, I probably get shadow banned (I can comment, but no one will ever see it, or something to that effect).
        clairity 5y ago
        one of the neat little things about slashdot was that voting included a short reason, like 'insightful', 'funny', 'redundant', or 'offtopic'. then as a user, you had some control over the visibility of comments based on those standard evaluations. that seems more viable to me than requiring a full comment on each downvote (though i like the idea in principle), which would likely devolve into these one-word evaluations as comments anyway. i wouldn't worry about getting shadowbanned unless you're constantly posting thoughtless and provocative craziness (which doesn't seem likely based on a very quick perusal of your comment history). i read with showdead on and find very few accounts being shadowbanned, and those that are continuously and blatantly violate hn rules (nevermind common courtesy).
- dahdum 5y ago
  In my experience those comments are often paired with tone problems, such as arrogance or aggressiveness. I always try to vouch or upvote any that seem unwarranted to me.
rcurry 5y ago
I agree with you 100%, I love HN and have been here for years but the downvoting feature disgusts me. Either allow a post or don’t, but this weird “fading” of someone’s post just because some people don’t agree with what someone has to say strikes me as petty and cheap. HN should be bigger than that.
- FalconSensei 5y ago
  And to prove your point, your comment is faded with no replies, even though you didn't say anything wrong, but only expressed your opinion.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
    That's the horse of twenty-somethings, and their "older" cohort, who think being a jerk is funny. I've definitely done that way too much here at times, oops. Still, it falls on the creators and maintainers of HN to do something about it. I'd be interested to read any discussion in suport of down votes from the crew who run the site.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
      Horse. Deary me. I meant horde.
- huffmsa 5y ago
  I've long held that you should have to reply to the comment when downvoting. Even if it's just a "no", that's better than the ability to hide a comment you don't agree with
  - sizt 5y ago
    Narcissists love a system of no downvotes, and other forms of passive aggressive, group think.
  - strken 5y ago
    The problem is that extremely low-quality comments (e.g. anything from "agree" and off-topic memes to irrelevant political sledging to the kind of thing that will get the user banned when a moderator sees it) are the majority of downvoted comments. Requiring a reply would give them long chains of unnecessary comments until they hit the threshold to be hidden.
TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
> the accepted HN narrative. I'd argue HN isn't a cohesive whole, there are factions / demographics what have you, along with timing. I've seen comments get pounded and even flagged to a death only to later see them revived and constructive conversation below. I agree with you though, down votes are a net-negative.
elastolin 5y ago
I agree, but masks don't work and IT IS just like the flu. That's an objectively true statement.
intrasight 5y ago
While the downvote feature is there, you don't have to use it. I only upvote, but I wouldn't consider campaining to remove the downvote. Having a rule to require a response in order to downvote is not a good idea - we just don't need more roles. But I think that is is proper and respectful to give a comment explaining why you downvoted. I often see such comments in response to my downvoted comments. But I might make this suggestion. Have upvotes and downvotes public. If HN has this information then so should we.
kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
I had to vouch for an inoffensive vanilla comment the other day. The downvote army frequently crosses the line to shape their ideology.
grawprog 5y ago
I think the problem when it comes down to it is there's generally more than one kind of comment as well as more than one kind of reason someone downvotes. You've got your objective factual comment Your subjective factual comment And your opinion based comment. I'm probably missing some. These can all be combined sometimes into one comment. Then you've got your reasons for downvoting. Disagreeing Factually incorrect Wrong opinion Again, probably missing some... When you start combining all these comment types, with downvote reasons under one generic down arrow, there's going to be some ambiguity, some good comments that get down voted, some bad comments that get upvoted and everything in between. And...furthermore, it's impossible for other users to determine why a comment was downvoted. Maybe, they were all disagreement downvotes even if it was a factually correct statement. Maybe they were factually incorrect downvotes for a correct opinion post. There's no real way of knowing, so in the end, better just not to worry about it either way and unless you're clearly posting something against the rules, just try again next time and write something that hopefully doesn't get downvoted.
- coding123 5y ago
  Most of the time I see downvotes with no replies it means the person generally disagrees. I upvoted you by the way :)
  - aeternum 5y ago
    I think sites would benefit from having more rich voting options, for example: agree but weak-argument, disagree but well-stated, changed my view, etc. Would yield some more interesting ways to sort and rank comments.
    - yetihehe 5y ago
      Very good idea. I wish I could mark your post as such. Then Dang could just filter by "good idea posts" and easily see how to improve site or world.
    - CM30 5y ago
      So basically, like Facebook Reactions and those post ratings plugins you can get for various forum scripts now. Yeah, I think that would work. Especially if 'disagree' is a neutral reaction rather than a negative one, so downvoting for disagreement stops being a thing.
6510 5y ago
I always make sure not to voice a position that goes against the HN group think. Often the discussion really needs it but why bother if it vanishes into the void(0)?
- why_Mr_Anderson 5y ago
  As a funny experiment, make 2 accounts - one for your actual opinions and other that posts only things aligned with the hive mind (e.g. praise anything mentioning Rust, hating on US, etc.) Results are .. interesting :)
krageon 5y ago
> endless downvotes for something that isn't offensive If you habitually find yourself on the receiving end of this it's worth re-examining why you think it's not offensive and if it looks like everyone else actually agrees with you. To a certain extent you are correct: It is to be expected that when you say something that's too "nice" you get a ton of downvotes (and the same goes for something too "rough", probably), that's just how things are. On balance though, you get so many more upvotes for constructive posts on issues that aren't loaded at all (or where your opinion is so centrist you don't post anything controversial) that it ends up not mattering. I'll allow that none of this applies when you are an extremist, but to my mind being an extremist means that unfortunately a lot of what you say will be offensive. That loops back to the beginning of my post :)

by Hiopl 5y ago

diob 5y ago

I agree, I've seen a lot of downvotes simply on things that aren't pro capitalism. I wish comments were used instead.

crispyambulance 5y ago
I'm not so worried about it. There's certain number of "tar-baby" subjects/opinions that can get someone downvoted on HN really quick... like suggesting Peter Thiel is an asshole, or saying anything negative about crazy libertarians. But HN is ALL about discussion. It's a relatively safe place to float an idea and hear some provocative opinions. The techno-libertarians don't actually bite. Stackoverflow, on the other hand, has higher stakes. People are trying to figure something out at work and running into a brick wall. If they make the mistake of posting an earnest question they make themselves vulnerable and have a good chance of being humiliated and made to feel like shit by some smug prick who's having a bad day. You really need to put on some psychological armor before attempting to question or answer on Stackoverflow. It's an intrinsically toxic environment.
- diob 5y ago
  Case against it being all about discussion though, my original comment has been voted down for some reason. Please folks, just debate me or post a counterpoint. I think at the very least tie ability to vote down with commenting. In other words, once the user has replied to the original comment, they can vote it down if they desire. You might think this is a safe place, but I've come to just avoid commenting anything like this that might get "hive minded" into oblivion. I'm sure I'm not the only one. In that sense, it's safe place for a certain "kind" of people with a certain "kind" of opinion.
  - clairity 5y ago
    > ‘I've come to just avoid commenting anything like this that might get "hive minded" into oblivion.’ that’s exactly when you should be commenting, otherwise the community is lulled into false conformity. contentious topics require more diversity of thought and more considered words, not less. internet points don’t matter, just the food for thought that comes with broader discussions.
    - diob 5y ago
      I know, that's why I'm suggesting it be tied to commenting. No comment, no voting down available. The reason why I don't bother as much anymore is I assume if my overall points get too low, I probably get shadow banned (I can comment, but no one will ever see it, or something to that effect).
      - clairity 5y ago
        one of the neat little things about slashdot was that voting included a short reason, like 'insightful', 'funny', 'redundant', or 'offtopic'. then as a user, you had some control over the visibility of comments based on those standard evaluations. that seems more viable to me than requiring a full comment on each downvote (though i like the idea in principle), which would likely devolve into these one-word evaluations as comments anyway. i wouldn't worry about getting shadowbanned unless you're constantly posting thoughtless and provocative craziness (which doesn't seem likely based on a very quick perusal of your comment history). i read with showdead on and find very few accounts being shadowbanned, and those that are continuously and blatantly violate hn rules (nevermind common courtesy).
dahdum 5y ago
In my experience those comments are often paired with tone problems, such as arrogance or aggressiveness. I always try to vouch or upvote any that seem unwarranted to me.

rcurry 5y ago

I agree with you 100%, I love HN and have been here for years but the downvoting feature disgusts me. Either allow a post or don’t, but this weird “fading” of someone’s post just because some people don’t agree with what someone has to say strikes me as petty and cheap. HN should be bigger than that.

FalconSensei 5y ago
And to prove your point, your comment is faded with no replies, even though you didn't say anything wrong, but only expressed your opinion.
- TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
  That's the horse of twenty-somethings, and their "older" cohort, who think being a jerk is funny. I've definitely done that way too much here at times, oops. Still, it falls on the creators and maintainers of HN to do something about it. I'd be interested to read any discussion in suport of down votes from the crew who run the site.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
    Horse. Deary me. I meant horde.
huffmsa 5y ago
I've long held that you should have to reply to the comment when downvoting. Even if it's just a "no", that's better than the ability to hide a comment you don't agree with
- sizt 5y ago
  Narcissists love a system of no downvotes, and other forms of passive aggressive, group think.
- strken 5y ago
  The problem is that extremely low-quality comments (e.g. anything from "agree" and off-topic memes to irrelevant political sledging to the kind of thing that will get the user banned when a moderator sees it) are the majority of downvoted comments. Requiring a reply would give them long chains of unnecessary comments until they hit the threshold to be hidden.

TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago

> the accepted HN narrative. I'd argue HN isn't a cohesive whole, there are factions / demographics what have you, along with timing. I've seen comments get pounded and even flagged to a death only to later see them revived and constructive conversation below. I agree with you though, down votes are a net-negative.

elastolin 5y ago

I agree, but masks don't work and IT IS just like the flu. That's an objectively true statement.

intrasight 5y ago

While the downvote feature is there, you don't have to use it. I only upvote, but I wouldn't consider campaining to remove the downvote. Having a rule to require a response in order to downvote is not a good idea - we just don't need more roles. But I think that is is proper and respectful to give a comment explaining why you downvoted. I often see such comments in response to my downvoted comments. But I might make this suggestion. Have upvotes and downvotes public. If HN has this information then so should we.

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago

I had to vouch for an inoffensive vanilla comment the other day. The downvote army frequently crosses the line to shape their ideology.

grawprog 5y ago

I think the problem when it comes down to it is there's generally more than one kind of comment as well as more than one kind of reason someone downvotes. You've got your objective factual comment Your subjective factual comment And your opinion based comment. I'm probably missing some. These can all be combined sometimes into one comment. Then you've got your reasons for downvoting. Disagreeing Factually incorrect Wrong opinion Again, probably missing some... When you start combining all these comment types, with downvote reasons under one generic down arrow, there's going to be some ambiguity, some good comments that get down voted, some bad comments that get upvoted and everything in between. And...furthermore, it's impossible for other users to determine why a comment was downvoted. Maybe, they were all disagreement downvotes even if it was a factually correct statement. Maybe they were factually incorrect downvotes for a correct opinion post. There's no real way of knowing, so in the end, better just not to worry about it either way and unless you're clearly posting something against the rules, just try again next time and write something that hopefully doesn't get downvoted.

coding123 5y ago
Most of the time I see downvotes with no replies it means the person generally disagrees. I upvoted you by the way :)
- aeternum 5y ago
  I think sites would benefit from having more rich voting options, for example: agree but weak-argument, disagree but well-stated, changed my view, etc. Would yield some more interesting ways to sort and rank comments.
  - yetihehe 5y ago
    Very good idea. I wish I could mark your post as such. Then Dang could just filter by "good idea posts" and easily see how to improve site or world.
  - CM30 5y ago
    So basically, like Facebook Reactions and those post ratings plugins you can get for various forum scripts now. Yeah, I think that would work. Especially if 'disagree' is a neutral reaction rather than a negative one, so downvoting for disagreement stops being a thing.

6510 5y ago

I always make sure not to voice a position that goes against the HN group think. Often the discussion really needs it but why bother if it vanishes into the void(0)?

why_Mr_Anderson 5y ago
As a funny experiment, make 2 accounts - one for your actual opinions and other that posts only things aligned with the hive mind (e.g. praise anything mentioning Rust, hating on US, etc.) Results are .. interesting :)

krageon 5y ago

> endless downvotes for something that isn't offensive If you habitually find yourself on the receiving end of this it's worth re-examining why you think it's not offensive and if it looks like everyone else actually agrees with you. To a certain extent you are correct: It is to be expected that when you say something that's too "nice" you get a ton of downvotes (and the same goes for something too "rough", probably), that's just how things are. On balance though, you get so many more upvotes for constructive posts on issues that aren't loaded at all (or where your opinion is so centrist you don't post anything controversial) that it ends up not mattering. I'll allow that none of this applies when you are an extremist, but to my mind being an extremist means that unfortunately a lot of what you say will be offensive. That loops back to the beginning of my post :)