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EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

• Pick-A-Hill2019 6y ago
  Seems rather short sighted in my opinion given that the current scientific consensus is that Covid will become a seasonal thing as it mutates which means that booster shots will probably be needed. Given that amount of R&D funds that the two companies have put in I would imagine they would be reluctant to join in efforts to produce a vaccination for future variations.
  • lampe3 6y ago
    short sighted is the mantra in a lot of EU Politics... In Germany politicians don't think longer then the next TV/Internet shit storm cycle...
    • ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      It's not reserved to German politicians but the EU democracy apparatus as a whole is broken to the core without any better alternative. Politicians aren't incentivized to optimize for doing what's right for their constituencies or the greater good but instead they say whatever gets them (re)elected then do whatever their lobby friends who contribute to the party's fund tell them to do, while putting a positive spin on this for the great unwashed. We have no system in place that holds politicians accountable for the damage they do throughout their careers. Even when they are forced to resign due to various scandals, they often end up as "consultants" at the businesses they helped get rich with tax-payer money.
      • Daho0n 6y ago
        It's like this everywhere except in those countries without democratic elections. It's a big part of democracy. Edit: Changed 'with' to 'without'. Woops.
      • andrepd 6y ago
        I don't disagree but how is that a feature of EU democracy and not democracy in general?
      • moystard 6y ago
        That statement can be applied to a lot of countries outside of the EU, it is not an EU specific problem. It represents a challenge for western democracies that appeared with the recent waves of populist movements (Trump, Brexit, 5 Stars, etc.)
    • IAmEveryone 6y ago
      Uninformed cynicism, however, is the exclusive mantra of online commentating. The EU is disputing the report in question. And even if it were true, they'd probably have some reason than what you're coming up with in the absence of all information, which is basically "let's kill some people".
    • polack 6y ago
      The point of this decision is that they think mRNA technology is the future, so they're investing in that. While I don't dispute that lots of EU politics is short sighted, this seems to be the direct opposite.
  • tertius 6y ago
    Ending a contract would encourage them to do more R&D for more future contracts. Don't subsidize drugs/vaccines that don't work. There are 100+ vaccines being worked on. We're fine.
    • elliekelly 6y ago
      > Don't subsidize drugs/vaccines that don't work. Why not? Funding vaccine research seems a worthy endeavor even if some of the research doesn’t pan out. The end result doesn’t need to be an immediately usable vaccine in order for the time & money spent to be worthwhile. Even a completely failed vaccine project could yield a piece of information that helps ensure the next project doesn’t fail.
      • Daho0n 6y ago
        Yes but funding the research and buying vaccines that doesn't work or won't be used for whatever reason is not the same thing though. You can help fund research without buying the vaccine. It would be quite the waste to buy stuff just to throw it out.
      • bluGill 6y ago
        There are different levels of research. Right not Adrenovirus vaccines need to go back to the lab and figure out this clotting issue. Maybe they can, maybe they can't, either way this is a basic research question that needs only a tiny amount of research money. More importantly, that money needs to be spread over a few years. Most of the vast amounts of research funding given isn't really research, it is scaling up production - a much harder problem that needs much more money. Since we now know of some issues (that would be very hard to find before a large scale roll out - lets not put undeserved fault on anyone here) the labs can focus on them.
      • tertius 6y ago
        > Why not? Because money is finite? Not every research grant gets funded. So let's start with the most promising ones? Funding vaccines that are not meeting standards should be dropped so that standards can be met. These companies don't need money for R&D, they have enough and can recoup it if they create a product that the market wants.
  • arrrg 6y ago
    Long-term availability of mRNA vaccines is looking great (short-term is bad to middling but delivery promises were kept and even over-fulfilled and there were no relevant hiccups – everything is scaling up as quickly or more quickly than promised) and they seem to be the gold standard. Plus, as a bonus, maybe they are easier to modify. Price and logistics aren’t really a concern that’s relevant for the EU and mRNA vaccines. It’s cheap enough and easy enough to handle.
  • skrause 6y ago
    The EU Commission has just started negotiations with BioNTech-Pfizer for 1.8 billion additional vaccine doses in 2021-2023: https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1382306561008230400 https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1382306561008230400 They're simply betting on mRNA only, so AstraZeneca and J&J won't be needed anymore.
    • rasz 6y ago
      Announcing to the world you really want this particular product and you just cancelled all competing contracts is the best negotiation tactic ever!!1
  • inglor_cz 6y ago
    If Covid becomes a seasonal thing (very possible), we will need more efficient treatments, too. For everyone who cannot either get the vaccine at all or didn't manage to get the booster shot on time. Fortunately it seems lately that some treatments do provide relief to people who are already sick: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00650-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00650-7 https://www.dw.com/en/asthma-drug-brings-hope-for-covid-19-treatment/a-57174301 https://www.dw.com/en/asthma-drug-brings-hope-for-covid-19-t...
  • maxerickson 6y ago
    We don't yet have a clear picture of how necessary booster shots will be. Each mutation that impacts antibody reactivity also has a chance to impact infectiousness, and the proteins targeted by the vaccines are large enough that it isn't trivial to predict the outcome. So we might need to do boosters, or we might be fine with the vaccines we have now.
  • rsynnott 6y ago
    Presumably the mRNA makers will have ramped production enough that it won't matter by the time anyone needs a booster.
    • maxerickson 6y ago
      That doesn't appear to be the case, even if you limit it to "enough for rich countries". Pfizer is predicting that they will be able to produce 250 million doses month by the end of the year, so I guess they are getting there (depending on how long a period is acceptable).
      • double-a 6y ago
        Source? Moderna (another mRNA vaccine) alone is estimating it will produce between 600M and 1B vaccines in 2021 already: https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKBN2991KH https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/... Curevac is on track to apply for authorization for another mRNA vaccine in Q2: https://www.biopharma-reporter.com/Article/2021/03/22/CureVac-on-track-to-apply-for-COVID-19-vaccine-market-authorization-in-Q2-2021 https://www.biopharma-reporter.com/Article/2021/03/22/CureVa... It's not out of the question that the EU will be able to supply itself entirely with mRNA (or inactivated virus) past 2021.
        • maxerickson 6y ago
          Just search for Pfizer 3 billion (that's the annual rate they expect to be at by the end of the year). The population you want to cover and how long it is allowed to take are both factors in whether production is a limit, so there isn't really one answer as to whether production rate is a factor.
  • estaseuropano 6y ago
    Its a false report, so no worries (see other comment thread)
• IAmEveryone 6y ago
  The EU Commission is disputing this report, according to German news.
  • rossdavidh 6y ago
    I don't doubt it, but a link would be good?
    • est31 6y ago
      https://www.handelsblatt.com/dpa/konjunktur/wirtschaft-handel-und-finanzen-eu-kommission-setzt-kuenftig-vor-allem-auf-mrna-impfstoffe/27094222.html https://www.handelsblatt.com/dpa/konjunktur/wirtschaft-hande... > Entsprechende Berichte seien falsch, sagte ein EU-Beamter. Es sei viel zu früh, darüber jetzt zu entscheiden.
    • trampi 6y ago
      https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/corona-impfstoffe-eu-kommission-setzt-kuenftig-vor-allem-auf-biontech-und-moderna-a-7de4fc9d-c315-46fa-8933-24301cf05675 https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/corona-impfstoffe-eu-kommi... > Berichte, wonach Verträge mit AstraZeneca und Johnson & Johnson ausliefen, dementierte die Kommission aber. translated: However, the commission denied reports that contracts with AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson were expiring.
• refraincomment 6y ago
  Good. But at the same time it should be possible to buy through private channels. So we can circumvent and get rid of the terribly inefficient bureaucrats.
  • tertius 6y ago
    Source?
  • refraincomment 6y ago
    As usual, advocating for personal freedom gets you downvoted. It's such a funny pattern.
    • refraincomment 6y ago
      What a bunch of retards you are :)
      • dang 6y ago
        This kind of thing will get you banned here. Would you please review the rules and stick to them? You've been breaking them badly, unfortunately. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    • JohnJamesRambo 6y ago
      Maybe people don’t like your idea because it reeks of the rich being able to buy their way to vaccines ahead of everyone else?
      • refraincomment 6y ago
        I didn't say anything about the rich. A vaccine costs pounds, everyone can afford it. Only thing preventing you from being covid protected is a random lazy bureaucrat in Brussels.
        • 6y ago
• parhamn 6y ago
  Does anyone know how reusable the mRNA infrastructure is in the future for other mRNA based solutions or is this stuff more one-off for COVID?
  • maxerickson 6y ago
    It should be fully reusable for similar applications. The mRNA production is basically 1:1 capacity. If a different application needed a different lipid some of the stuff might not be suitable.
  • syntaxing 6y ago
    It’s pretty much the holy grail for vaccines. It delivers the spike protein via mRNA and the hardest part is the delivery which they’re ironing out with nanolipids (also Moderna biggest IP) during this COVID run. Though I’m an engineer so take everything at face value.
    • _Microft 6y ago
      The vaccine only contains the (mRNA) blueprints for the spike protein that cells of the body will then produce themselves. The immune system then reacts to those.
  • dmitryminkovsky 6y ago
    In my understanding, the mRNA platform can be used for any application where you want to temporarily express a protein in the body. In the case of these COVID vaccines, it's being used to express the coronavirus spike protein, but Moderna is already using this technology for HIV, flu and others[0]. I believe the applications beyond vaccines are many, too. [0] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/moderna-offers-update-on-vaccine-program-to-launch-studies-of-flu-hiv-vaccine-candidates-in-2021-2021-04-14 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/moderna-offers-update-on-v...
  • theptip 6y ago
    On both ends of the spectrum of mortality rates: Common cold: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23159882/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23159882/. Malaria: https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2021/03/12/yale-lab-develops-revolutionary-rna-vaccine-for-malaria/ https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2021/03/12/yale-lab-develops-...
• jleyank 6y ago
  Probably every drug has risks, many higher than the 1:1,000,000 reported for AZ/J&J. It's always a balance between the risk untreated vs. treated - many cancer drugs will kill you, but slower than they kill the cancer. Contraceptives have various issues, but their "social good" is deemed worthwhile. I've read that they are doing gene analysis to try and determine why these cases appear - is it gender, age, cross-reactions with other meds, ...? And recall that some of these conditions appear without obvious causes. If they're due to an overly aggressive immune response, recall that the cytokine storm caused by covid in such cases is what attacks the lungs (why immunosuppressants are used as treatments). And nobody understands Long Covid.
  • seriousquestion 6y ago
    Long Covid is mostly self reported vague symptoms, namely fatigue and brain fog. It's what happens when you stay at home too much and don't get enough exercise and have a poor diet. Isolation? The Covid 15* that many of us packed on? You will feel worse and especially more fatigued, no doubt. Not to mention being constantly immersed in an environment of fear. It's a misattribution to associate side effects of weight gain, isolation, depression with the Covid illness. * https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-covid-15-if-only-this-is-how-much-weight-the-average-person-actually-gained-during-the-pandemic-11615574913 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-covid-15-if-only-this-...
    • rolha-capoeira 6y ago
      That's an awfully simple interpretation to post without linking to at least one study or professional analysis.
    • lxgr 6y ago
      That's some pretty impressive remote diagnostic capability you have there, have you thought about a career in telemedicine? (Update: This snarky comment is in response to a much more hostile parent comment that has since been changed.) > It's what happens when you stay at home too much and don't get enough exercise and have a poor diet While both are risk factors for a wide range of illnesses, last time I checked, neither of those cause lung damage visible on a chest x-ray.
• syntaxing 6y ago
  Seems like mRNA vaccines is winning the the race against other emerging technology like viral vector. If we manage to figure out the nanolipids to live in better temperature conditions, mRNA will change our generation.
  • s_dev 6y ago
    Seems incredible now the University of Pennsylvania told the inventor mRNA that their contributions weren't worthwhile and let them go. https://billypenn.com/2020/12/29/university-pennsylvania-covid-vaccine-mrna-kariko-demoted-biontech-pfizer/ https://billypenn.com/2020/12/29/university-pennsylvania-cov... And now on social media they've done a full 180 and are acting as if it were their contribution to the world when the reality is quite different.
    • marcinzm 6y ago
      As I see it, the issue isn't with the University of Pennsylvania but with academia. Publish or perish. Get consistent grants or find a new job. The system isn't geared to promoting long term risky endeavors.
      • visarga 6y ago
        > The system isn't geared to promoting long term risky endeavors. They made a mistake by trying to follow the obvious path towards progress, and the result proves how wrong they were. The path was deceptive and the straight direction was leading to detours. This problem appears also in AI. Optimization only works when you can point to the solution. Evolution on the other hand can find these hidden stepping stones that initially don't appear useful, but it takes time. In my opinion lots of the scientific research is just following the trends instead of finding these hidden stepping stones. Only very few are committed to searching so far from the beaten road.
    • gambler 6y ago
      >Seems incredible now the University of Pennsylvania told the inventor mRNA that their contributions weren't worthwhile and let them go. Incredible from common sense perspective, but totally expected if you know how American academia operates these days.
• boringg 6y ago
  Seems short sighted to me given we don't know efficacy against the variants. If I were in the contractual chair I'd keep all my options on the table, we aren't out of this yet. assuming this is true, as opposed to some kind of way to leverage better terms out of a deal
  • gnfargbl 6y ago
    The EU was slow off the mark when it came to ordering vaccines and as a result it did not get priority for deliveries. The EU can't change that now, but it can send the manufacturers a message warning of the dangers of not showing fealty. Perhaps I'm cynical, but I do wonder if this decision is more politics than science.
    • tubularhells 6y ago
      They have to show force. Money speaks.
    • rsynnott 6y ago
      I think people are possibly reading a bit more into this than necessary. Stripped of context "supplier A delivers ~33% of contracted quantity of thing, other suppliers deliver 100% or more of contracted quantity of thing, supplier A's contract not renewed" is not even a vaguely surprising narrative, even if 'thing' is entirely generic.
  • polack 6y ago
    The EU have options to buy 100 million doses of AZ vaccine for 2022, but they need to make up their minds now if they want them or not. With AZ's history of not delivering on time I think this is a no-brainer, especially since we don't know if the AZ vaccine will work on the new Covid variants. Why pour more money down the AZ drain when we have better alternatives?
    • fshbbdssbbgdd 6y ago
      Because it’s a very small amount of money relative to the impact of the pandemic. Even if these vaccines only added 1% to the fight against the pandemic they’d be worth it. This is another expression of the “penny wise, pound foolish” decision-making process that led to the EU being last in lines for the vaccines in the first place.
• rossdavidh 6y ago
  Even if true (and apparently some German officials are saying it isn't), the contracts go through the end of 2021 is my understanding, so that makes these announcements a bit less significant than the headlines suggests. To be honest, it seems like there is an argument to be made that the rich countries _should_ stop buying the J&J and AZ vaccines, except perhaps to donate to poorer countries, because the mRNA vaccines are much more challenging for poorer countries to use (multiple doses, refrigeration more challenging). I wonder if the focus on (very rare) side effects is part of an effort to lay the groundwork for doing that without a huge backlash from rich country citizens.
  • JamisonM 6y ago
    The rich countries shouldn't stop buying they should buy and give away for sure. Not some strings-attached bullshit but just straight-up dropping refrigerated containers of them at airports. Politics is unfortunately going to get in the way of that.
    • guitarbill 6y ago
      COVAX is a thing, so there's hope. But even the usual politics aside, it's going to be a hard sell if you can't even get your own population vaccinated quickly and safely. Also, let's be realistic here - there's more to vaccine distribution than just dropping refrigerated containers of perishable vaccines off. I get the intention of the sentence, but just giving away doses is not in itself a recipe for success or helping people. Helping implementing/building medical infrastructure and expertise out is a gift that will keep on giving.
      • JamisonM 6y ago
        Giving away vaccines is a necessary if not sufficient condition for success, we can pile on additional conditions to the point of paralysis if we want.. but bottom-line, there are hundreds of millions if not billions of people who want vaccines that can't get them... roll those shots out!
    • chii 6y ago
• robert_foss 6y ago
  From reading local news, the reason seems to be unrelated to clotting complications. Instead it seems to be based on the expected long-term efficacy of non mRNA vaccines.
• barrenko 6y ago
  Another EU blunder, what more can be said at this point. The only person who could pivot EU to something effective at this point would be a fictional character such as Darth Vader.
  • dathos 6y ago
    How very US
• solarkraft 6y ago
  I hope this isn't true unless an mRNA vaccine production miracle is inbound. This will measure whether the commission has a) Managed to solve the self-inflicted supply issues far beyond demand or b) Lost the last bit of sanity.
• DominikD 6y ago
  If or when this happens, I hope we don't end up with millions of people who got the frist AZ shot and are left without access to the second dose.
  • tempestn 6y ago
    All evidence suggests people will be at least as well off getting an mRNA vaccine for the second dose after an AZ first dose.
• alexandr1us 6y ago
  Some people are reporting bad side effects https://t.me/covidvaccinevictims https://t.me/covidvaccinevictims