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In Jan, there was a big outcry, i thought all would move to signal. I have about 25% of the conversations in signal, but especially for groups, whatsapp is so s

In Jan, there was a big outcry, i thought all would move to signal. I have about 25% of the conversations in signal, but especially for groups, whatsapp is so sticky, that they seem to have broadly failed in signal, and are back to whatsapp. I continue to have individual conversations on signal with most friends, but the idea of being able to leave whatsapp seems to be much tougher than I thought.

darig 6y ago
You're the glue creating the stickiness. Leave. Either they follow you, or they don't value you or themselves.
bla3 6y ago
If we're doing anecdata: All my contacts are on Signal now. I uninstalled WhatsApp back in Jan.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
And Signal saw that movement, and decided instead of focusing all their development effort in making sure the user experience for all these new users was top notch and developing in the open, instead to push a cryptocoin that no one has heard of before but one which their principals likely have a stash of. Given Signal's behavior, I am not going to waste any friendship capital trying to convince my friends to switch to Signal.
- hjek 6y ago
  WhatsApp have been focusing on payments lately[0] so it only makes sense for Signal to put efforts into that, too. [0]: https://blog.whatsapp.com/send-payments-in-india-with-whatsapp/?lang=en https://blog.whatsapp.com/send-payments-in-india-with-whatsa...
  - Aeolun 6y ago
    If it’s actual payments, yes. If it’s some weird fully owned cryptocoin, no.
el_dev_hell 6y ago
Throwing in my anecdotal experience. I noticed something very similar. About 25% of one-on-one conversations are now in Signal. Another 25% are in iMessage, which is a very easy sell for iOS users. I've had a terrible time with group chats. One large chat is occurring in iMessage (very poor experience). Another large chat is occurring in Discord, which has been fantastic, but it changes the dynamic and caused a few friends to ghost (the onboarding to Discord is harder for newcomers vs. iMessage, WhatsApp or Signal IMO).
- sneak 6y ago
  Discord is not end to end encrypted, and thus should be actively avoided. It is reasonable to assume that every single chat and every single DM is logged in plaintext by Discord for all time.
- Aeolun 6y ago
  I have absolutely no issues with Signal group chat? Where did this rainbow puke?
- hiq 6y ago
  > I've had a terrible time with group chats. When was this? There was a migration from groupv1 to groupv2 which could explain it. I've always found it stable personally (including during migration). At any rate, it should be better now that there are less changes.
amanzi 6y ago
Similar experience here, except most people who moved to Signal were tech-savvy, while all my family and closest friends have stuck with WhatsApp. Given Signal's recent changes in direction, I'm considering just giving up on it and sticking with WhatsApp.
- pkulak 6y ago
  I set up a Matrix server for my family, and then bridged in everyone else I know who uses iMessage. Now at least I'm chatting in a single app.
  - dx034 6y ago
    That means your family can't communicate if your server is down?
    - pkulak 6y ago
      Yup. Just like how we couldn't communicate for 2 days when Signal's servers went down a few weeks before I made the switch. The difference with me is that my server has a dozen users and I could rebuild the whole thing from backups on a brand new provider in a couple hours if I needed to. I doubt I'll need to, though. It's not exactly working hard. :D
ryandrake 6y ago
The way I see it, you can choose to be part of the problem or not. And with a product that gets stronger the more people use it, then using it is part of the problem. You can’t complain about how So-And-So company’s products are bad, but then say “but I can’t bear to stop using em!” I cut all of FB and their ecosystem out of my life years ago. Can’t say this one person out of billions has had an effect on the company but at least I can honestly say I’m not even a tiny part of the problem. I don't proselytize to normal people anymore because most just aren't receptive to the message. It's like an addiction. Even when they agree with me, everyone has their little excuses as to why they can't possibly quit. And at the end of the day your one-one-billionth share of the problem amounts to peanuts, anyway.
- judge2020 6y ago
  I think your over-generalization in the first paragraph doesn’t work for most situations. This can apply to a small messaging app in which there are many alternatives, but you can surely participate in something while still pointing out its flaws. https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/ https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/
- chii 6y ago
  > “but I can’t bear to stop using em!” well, it requires sacrifice on your part to stop messaging your friends. Most people would not give up their friends for "the greater good" of stopping privacy intrusion (which won't have an effect until the majority of people give up whatsapp first). I can see why most people won't fight the good fight.
  - emptysongglass 6y ago
    Your really good friends won't stop messaging you just because you've left Facebook. If anything, leaving Facebook was a wake-up call as to who my very good friends were.
    - patch_cable 6y ago
      “Really good friends” aren’t the only friends worth staying in touch with.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dalbasal 6y ago
>> the idea of being able to leave whatsapp seems to be much tougher than I thought. Network lock-in is real. I think a lot of people who disconnect from fb also disregard the difficulty. Even if you don't like the barman, your local is wherever your buddies hang out.
- godelski 6y ago
  It is difficult but not impossible. Everyone switched from Myspace to Facebook. Thing was the Facebook offered something different. But it did start small. The way you defeat network lock-in is by fighting against it hard. It definitely is not easy. I lost friends when I deleted my Facebook. But truth is, they weren't people I frequently talked to anyways so it is probably better to call them acquaintances. The thing is that I've contacted plenty of those people years after nothing and they are all happy to grab a beer. But we pretend that this isn't the case. We say "Yeah, I'd do that, but they wouldn't." Or something similar. Though I'll admit, getting people to switch to Signal was a lot of work. People like Elon and Joe Rogan helped onboard a lot of the people that were holding out. One group chat has a member that is only there because everyone else bought in and he complains, but uses it (big WA user). I don't think people calling for disconnecting are unaware of the difficulties. Ripping off a bandaid hurts, but the thought of ripping it off often is more painful than the actual experience.
sneak 6y ago
They're back on WhatsApp because you and others still have an account there. The migration to Signal has two parts: start using Signal, and delete your Facebook accounts.
LordAtlas 6y ago
The Signal UX for groups is truly terrible. It looks like a rainbow puked in there. And heaven help you if you use their crappy desktop client. It doesn't sync with your mobile client unless you open the app on your phone, and then syncs everything slowly, which messes up your group chats if you happen to send another message in between.
- lorenzhs 6y ago
  When is the last time you used it? Because I have none of these issues. None. Especially since "It doesn't sync with your mobile client unless you open the app on your phone" is architecturally completely wrong. The desktop client doesn't communicate through your phone. That's how WhatsApp web works, but Signal Desktop doesn't.
  - codethief 6y ago
    Same here, both Signal groups and Signal desktop work flawlessly for me.
jimkleiber 6y ago
Not sure for you, but what makes WhatsApp the stickiest for me out of the chat apps is the statuses (stories). I start many of my conversations on WA by seeing someone's status (story). On Signal, Telegram, or even iMessage, there isn't that nudge to restart the conversation. I think if those platforms made some story-like feature, I'd have an easier time leaving WhatsApp.
- marton78 6y ago
  That's funny, I don't know anyone who uses that feature.
  - jimkleiber 6y ago
    Fascinating! Maybe it depends on the region...I have many friends in East Africa and they seem to use it all the time. This has inspired me to look more closely at which friends actually post and which ones view the statuses. Thanks!
- jcelerier 6y ago
  I have never ever seen anyone around me do a WhatsApp story
  - jimkleiber 6y ago
    As I mentioned in a different comment, maybe it depends on the region, with many of my friends who post being from East Africa. Would you mind sharing in which part of the world are most of your WhatsApp contacts living?
    - jcelerier 6y ago
      France
- josteink 6y ago
  > Not sure for you, but what makes WhatsApp the stickiest for me out of the chat apps is the statuses (stories). For me it's the other way around. I've stopped using all platforms which offers that "feature", because I find it distracting and annoying.
dx034 6y ago
Most of my groups went to Signal. But until they support live location (something I use frequently, albeit less during Corona), I won't uninstall Whatsapp. For all their privacy faults, it's still the app with probably one of the best UX (so easy it's the only app my grandma can use) all features I'd want for a chat app without annoying extras.
Vinnl 6y ago
It works the other way around too though! Create Signal equivalents for your WhatsApp groups, add the subset of the WhatApp members that also have Signal, and then if you have something fun to share, do so in the Signal group. That way you're meeting people where they are, while simultaneously using an app you can get behind as well, leaving it to others (and their FOMO) to meet you where you are.
spurgu 6y ago
For me it went from 30% FB, 60% Whatsapp, 10% Signal in January to 0% FB, 10% Whatsapp, 90% Signal today. I might get rid of the 10% after May. So it's possible. That said I'm only talking about maybe 15-20 contacts, so small sample size.

darig 6y ago

You're the glue creating the stickiness. Leave. Either they follow you, or they don't value you or themselves.

bla3 6y ago

If we're doing anecdata: All my contacts are on Signal now. I uninstalled WhatsApp back in Jan.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago

And Signal saw that movement, and decided instead of focusing all their development effort in making sure the user experience for all these new users was top notch and developing in the open, instead to push a cryptocoin that no one has heard of before but one which their principals likely have a stash of. Given Signal's behavior, I am not going to waste any friendship capital trying to convince my friends to switch to Signal.

hjek 6y ago
WhatsApp have been focusing on payments lately[0] so it only makes sense for Signal to put efforts into that, too. [0]: https://blog.whatsapp.com/send-payments-in-india-with-whatsapp/?lang=en https://blog.whatsapp.com/send-payments-in-india-with-whatsa...
- Aeolun 6y ago
  If it’s actual payments, yes. If it’s some weird fully owned cryptocoin, no.

el_dev_hell 6y ago

Throwing in my anecdotal experience. I noticed something very similar. About 25% of one-on-one conversations are now in Signal. Another 25% are in iMessage, which is a very easy sell for iOS users. I've had a terrible time with group chats. One large chat is occurring in iMessage (very poor experience). Another large chat is occurring in Discord, which has been fantastic, but it changes the dynamic and caused a few friends to ghost (the onboarding to Discord is harder for newcomers vs. iMessage, WhatsApp or Signal IMO).

sneak 6y ago
Discord is not end to end encrypted, and thus should be actively avoided. It is reasonable to assume that every single chat and every single DM is logged in plaintext by Discord for all time.
Aeolun 6y ago
I have absolutely no issues with Signal group chat? Where did this rainbow puke?
hiq 6y ago
> I've had a terrible time with group chats. When was this? There was a migration from groupv1 to groupv2 which could explain it. I've always found it stable personally (including during migration). At any rate, it should be better now that there are less changes.

amanzi 6y ago

Similar experience here, except most people who moved to Signal were tech-savvy, while all my family and closest friends have stuck with WhatsApp. Given Signal's recent changes in direction, I'm considering just giving up on it and sticking with WhatsApp.

pkulak 6y ago
I set up a Matrix server for my family, and then bridged in everyone else I know who uses iMessage. Now at least I'm chatting in a single app.
- dx034 6y ago
  That means your family can't communicate if your server is down?
  - pkulak 6y ago
    Yup. Just like how we couldn't communicate for 2 days when Signal's servers went down a few weeks before I made the switch. The difference with me is that my server has a dozen users and I could rebuild the whole thing from backups on a brand new provider in a couple hours if I needed to. I doubt I'll need to, though. It's not exactly working hard. :D

ryandrake 6y ago

The way I see it, you can choose to be part of the problem or not. And with a product that gets stronger the more people use it, then using it is part of the problem. You can’t complain about how So-And-So company’s products are bad, but then say “but I can’t bear to stop using em!” I cut all of FB and their ecosystem out of my life years ago. Can’t say this one person out of billions has had an effect on the company but at least I can honestly say I’m not even a tiny part of the problem. I don't proselytize to normal people anymore because most just aren't receptive to the message. It's like an addiction. Even when they agree with me, everyone has their little excuses as to why they can't possibly quit. And at the end of the day your one-one-billionth share of the problem amounts to peanuts, anyway.

judge2020 6y ago
I think your over-generalization in the first paragraph doesn’t work for most situations. This can apply to a small messaging app in which there are many alternatives, but you can surely participate in something while still pointing out its flaws. https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/ https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/
chii 6y ago
> “but I can’t bear to stop using em!” well, it requires sacrifice on your part to stop messaging your friends. Most people would not give up their friends for "the greater good" of stopping privacy intrusion (which won't have an effect until the majority of people give up whatsapp first). I can see why most people won't fight the good fight.
- emptysongglass 6y ago
  Your really good friends won't stop messaging you just because you've left Facebook. If anything, leaving Facebook was a wake-up call as to who my very good friends were.
  - patch_cable 6y ago
    “Really good friends” aren’t the only friends worth staying in touch with.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

dalbasal 6y ago

>> the idea of being able to leave whatsapp seems to be much tougher than I thought. Network lock-in is real. I think a lot of people who disconnect from fb also disregard the difficulty. Even if you don't like the barman, your local is wherever your buddies hang out.

godelski 6y ago
It is difficult but not impossible. Everyone switched from Myspace to Facebook. Thing was the Facebook offered something different. But it did start small. The way you defeat network lock-in is by fighting against it hard. It definitely is not easy. I lost friends when I deleted my Facebook. But truth is, they weren't people I frequently talked to anyways so it is probably better to call them acquaintances. The thing is that I've contacted plenty of those people years after nothing and they are all happy to grab a beer. But we pretend that this isn't the case. We say "Yeah, I'd do that, but they wouldn't." Or something similar. Though I'll admit, getting people to switch to Signal was a lot of work. People like Elon and Joe Rogan helped onboard a lot of the people that were holding out. One group chat has a member that is only there because everyone else bought in and he complains, but uses it (big WA user). I don't think people calling for disconnecting are unaware of the difficulties. Ripping off a bandaid hurts, but the thought of ripping it off often is more painful than the actual experience.

sneak 6y ago

They're back on WhatsApp because you and others still have an account there. The migration to Signal has two parts: start using Signal, and delete your Facebook accounts.

LordAtlas 6y ago

The Signal UX for groups is truly terrible. It looks like a rainbow puked in there. And heaven help you if you use their crappy desktop client. It doesn't sync with your mobile client unless you open the app on your phone, and then syncs everything slowly, which messes up your group chats if you happen to send another message in between.

lorenzhs 6y ago
When is the last time you used it? Because I have none of these issues. None. Especially since "It doesn't sync with your mobile client unless you open the app on your phone" is architecturally completely wrong. The desktop client doesn't communicate through your phone. That's how WhatsApp web works, but Signal Desktop doesn't.
- codethief 6y ago
  Same here, both Signal groups and Signal desktop work flawlessly for me.

jimkleiber 6y ago

Not sure for you, but what makes WhatsApp the stickiest for me out of the chat apps is the statuses (stories). I start many of my conversations on WA by seeing someone's status (story). On Signal, Telegram, or even iMessage, there isn't that nudge to restart the conversation. I think if those platforms made some story-like feature, I'd have an easier time leaving WhatsApp.

marton78 6y ago
That's funny, I don't know anyone who uses that feature.
- jimkleiber 6y ago
  Fascinating! Maybe it depends on the region...I have many friends in East Africa and they seem to use it all the time. This has inspired me to look more closely at which friends actually post and which ones view the statuses. Thanks!
jcelerier 6y ago
I have never ever seen anyone around me do a WhatsApp story
- jimkleiber 6y ago
  As I mentioned in a different comment, maybe it depends on the region, with many of my friends who post being from East Africa. Would you mind sharing in which part of the world are most of your WhatsApp contacts living?
  - jcelerier 6y ago
    France
josteink 6y ago
> Not sure for you, but what makes WhatsApp the stickiest for me out of the chat apps is the statuses (stories). For me it's the other way around. I've stopped using all platforms which offers that "feature", because I find it distracting and annoying.

dx034 6y ago

Most of my groups went to Signal. But until they support live location (something I use frequently, albeit less during Corona), I won't uninstall Whatsapp. For all their privacy faults, it's still the app with probably one of the best UX (so easy it's the only app my grandma can use) all features I'd want for a chat app without annoying extras.

Vinnl 6y ago

It works the other way around too though! Create Signal equivalents for your WhatsApp groups, add the subset of the WhatApp members that also have Signal, and then if you have something fun to share, do so in the Signal group. That way you're meeting people where they are, while simultaneously using an app you can get behind as well, leaving it to others (and their FOMO) to meet you where you are.

spurgu 6y ago

For me it went from 30% FB, 60% Whatsapp, 10% Signal in January to 0% FB, 10% Whatsapp, 90% Signal today. I might get rid of the 10% after May. So it's possible. That said I'm only talking about maybe 15-20 contacts, so small sample size.