6 ms·

NZ just raised our min wage to $20 an hour. I work at least 50 hours a week. A teenager at MacDonalds now earns a good fraction of my income if they work the s

by xupybd 6y ago

NZ just raised our min wage to $20 an hour. I work at least 50 hours a week. A teenager at MacDonalds now earns a good fraction of my income if they work the same hours. Despite my 4 year degree, near decade of experience and the responsibility's that I hold.

hpaavola 6y ago
Are you going to switch jobs to work at McD?
cercatrova 6y ago
You are arguing the wrong point, it is you who should be paid more rather than the teenager who should be paid less.
- nostrebored 6y ago
  The value of wages are a function of average and minimum compensation.
FranzFerdiNaN 6y ago
I fail to see the problem?
setpatchaddress 6y ago
This sort of thinking is corrosive to society at large. It’s not a zero-sum game. But, if you must, take heart in the fact that the teenager will never make more than $minimum in that job, where presumably your income will continue to rise commensurate with experience.
- Dracophoenix 6y ago
  That's not corrosive at all. If anything, it's the kind of thinking that leads to recognizing one's worth. No person should stay in a job in which he is of the view the he is not commensurately compensated. Nor should he wait for some vague future in which that might the case "eventually". This was the point of raising the minimum wage in the first place. Why would you think it just stops there?
- EdwinLarkin 6y ago
  His income will continue to rise but so will cries for progressive taxation on income or assets. It's a never ending story of jealousy and wealth inequality.
- tootahe45 6y ago
  In many ways he is losing out. Rent for example increases with ability to pay (in NZ at least), so if govt raised welfare payments and min wage, his rent could go up without seeing a wage increase. I do think it's OP fault for not taking action though, not the govt. It's like my dad who has complained he is underpaid for the past 10 years yet still doesn't switch job..
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
worker767424 6y ago
If it helps, a robot will be doing their job in 5 years.
- Synaesthesia 6y ago
  No it won't. A human will be flipping those burgers and serving them to customer.
  - worker767424 6y ago
    They're already replacing cashiers with kiosks. No reason to think some of the relatively more mundane kitchen jobs aren't next.
    - Tade0 6y ago
      But robots don't actually replace these workers. In the case of McDonald's the kiosks only generated more throughput, actually adding work, so all the staff assigned to taking orders was put into other work. Meanwhile self-checkout, while actually reducing throughput somewhat, made it possible for the workers to take on other tasks in the store - of which there are many.
      - akvadrako 6y ago
        There isnt that many jobs in a grocery store that need many people. Stocking shelves and cleaning mostly. Once those are automated there will be a lot less jobs.
        tootahe45 6y ago
        If the jobs were that easy to automate they would have been automated at the current rate. Min wage going from $18-20 doesn't suddenly make that all-in-one supermarket bot doable. Automating real world jobs is hard and often not viable especially for dynamic work. Even the no-brainier automation like self-checkouts are actually not saving much apparently. (could be false, heard it on a anti-min wage channel).
dbspin 6y ago
Yes. It's your wage that's the issue, not theirs. Feeling like you deserve more, should never be a reason to deprive others. New Zealands cost of living is extremely high, and wages need to be commensurate to allow ordinary social reproduction - marriage, children, rent, groceries.
kristopolous 6y ago
As does an adult with a family. People who work full-time deserve to not live in poverty. You make it sound like having a society where hard working people can feed their family is unfair to you. It's not. You're wrong.
- xupybd 6y ago
  An adult with a family should not be stuck at minimum wage. If they are that's a problem with the economy.
- ZephyrBlu 6y ago
  $20/hr in NZ is nowhere near poverty. It's 80% of what STEM grads typically earn, for bottom of the barrel work.
  - kristopolous 6y ago
    So stem is still 25% more? Everyone who works hard has a right to live comfortably and not in fear of some giant cost coming forcing them to squirrel away piles of money. Stem should be about building tomorrow and making a better society, the personal fortune building has polluted the field and is distracting us from more important problems. Having a $500,000 stock portfolio shouldn't be mandatory for a decent life. There's a reason for our technological stagnations mapping to the rise in inequality.
    - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
      STEM jobs generally pay more than non-STEM jobs, and I'd say graduate jobs range between $20-26/hr. If someone without a degree is making $20/hr and you're making barely more than that, why the hell did you waste 4 years to get a degree? I know someone who is in this exact situation. The economics don't make sense.
      - kristopolous 6y ago
        Because you want to do it. I'd honestly still be a programmer if the pay was poor. In fact, I do it for free quite a bit and I enjoy it more. People are motivated by more than mindless greed and universities shouldn't be transactional skills training camps. It should be about building an enlightened and educated society. College tuition in New Zealand are not structured like the United States. It's much more reasonable
ohgodplsno 6y ago
So, McDonalds employees should not have a good salary because... It hurts your feelings? I've seen better arguments. You are playing exactly in the game that the extremely wealthy want you to play. Being disdainful or even hateful of the teenager that flips burgers all day long, while they delegate their entire work, do nothing but lines of cocaine and jet-ski while you kill yourself working 50 hours a week (most likely for them, too), earn hundreds to thousands of times your salary, yet the shit job that is making burgers is the problem?
- lelanthran 6y ago
  > You are playing exactly in the game that the extremely wealthy want you to play. The extremely wealthy probably don't care that much - they aren't reducing their income to afford an increased minimum wage, they're reducing yours. (Assuming, of course, that you are not part of the extremely wealthy). When a business's costs increase, they pass it on to the consumers (you). When they can't pass it on any further they reduce their costs, with the easiest cost to reduce being employee costs. Since they can't reduce the cost of minimum wage, they'll reduce the costs of the other employees. You can't rein in the excesses of the extremely rich by mandating minimum wage. You might be able to do so by regulation (tax rules, maybe? Clamping down on tax havens would do more to even things out than any other step you may wish to take).
dataflow 6y ago
I assume your objection is that this is unfair to you who spent all that time and effort into getting your current role? What would you have done differently had you known the future would be like this?
hkt 6y ago
50 hours a week sounds brutal. I don't see the problem with the teenager (or adult with family) earning $20, but maybe you should consider working somewhere with shorter days?
bawolff 6y ago
Maybe you're just not as good at your job or it isn't as valuable as you think it is. Capitalism isn't a senority system; degrees,experience and responsibility mean jack if you can't convince someone you are worth it. Alternatively, if you think flipping burgers for a "good fraction" of your current income is a good deal that you are envious of, then maybe you should go flip burgers. If not, what are you complaining about?
worker767424 6y ago
I looked at some tech jobs in Wellington and shocked at how little they pay compared to SF. The cost of living in cheaper, but not that much cheaper.
- xupybd 6y ago
  Yeah if you pair it with the average house price it's not great https://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/housing-affordability/124410237/wellington-citys-average-house-value-exceeds-1-million-and-the-rest-of-the-region-isnt-far-behind https://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/housing-affordability... Despite my comment I like life here. I wasn't really trying to give more than a data point from another part of the world. My personal view is that a strong enough economy should be able to provide most people with a better than minimum wage job. But if you bump the minimum wage too high you simply raise the price of everything.
- ZephyrBlu 6y ago
  NZ pay in general is very poor compared to other developed countries in my opinion. When you compare SF tech salaries to NZ tech salaries it's just ridiculous though. I would say SF TC is 4x or more than NZ salaries (Stock grants are not common) for similar positions.
  - EdwinLarkin 6y ago
    SF salaries are ridiculous compared to anywhere else. Not even Switzerland can compare. The only places where you can earn just as much as you do in SF is consulting anywhere in the rich world or those few positions in Chinese megacities. I am actually surprised SF did not lower salaries exactly for this because there's nowhere else to go if you want to at least keep your SF salary.
    - xupybd 6y ago
      If you put the average software developers salary in NZ into USD you get $50211.93. From https://www.payscale.com/research/NZ/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/NZ/Job=Software_Engineer/S...
speedplane 6y ago
If you can work 50 hours a week, and can manage a team of people, it’s time to look beyond McDonalds.
silverpepsi 6y ago
Market signals can't go backwards in time so I feel like everyone replying is looking at this the wrong way. The learning here is that some fraction of new versions of this gentleman or lady xupybd will have a stronger market incentive to not go to the trouble and risk and just go for the guaranteed $20/hr making more competition for the $20 hr no education jobs. Maybe the higher IQ people will push average teenagers out of such jobs. Finally the market will equalize when the supply for 4 year degree jobs drops and they are forced to increase the pay.
- xupybd 6y ago
  Exactly this. I was working low wage jobs 6 days a week. That made me realize I couldn't support a family living like that. I went and got an engineering degree. I'm not sure I would have done that now.
  - throwawayfrauds 6y ago
    If the pay was the same, would you seriously rather work at McDonald’s than at an engineering job? That seems unimaginable to me.
    - xupybd 6y ago
      Maybe not McDonald's but something outside with very little responsibility and a bit of exercise would be nice. Don't get me wrong I love to code and would probably find my self doing that again but every crunch time of an unrealistic deadline that had nothing to do with the effort required to complete the project has me fantasizing about spending six months in the summer picking fruit.
imtringued 6y ago
Yes, it's time to get a new job. That's the funny part about the minimum wage. The psychological effect causes people to seek better jobs, but that is about it.

by xupybd 6y ago

hpaavola 6y ago

Are you going to switch jobs to work at McD?

cercatrova 6y ago

You are arguing the wrong point, it is you who should be paid more rather than the teenager who should be paid less.

nostrebored 6y ago
The value of wages are a function of average and minimum compensation.

FranzFerdiNaN 6y ago

I fail to see the problem?

setpatchaddress 6y ago

This sort of thinking is corrosive to society at large. It’s not a zero-sum game. But, if you must, take heart in the fact that the teenager will never make more than $minimum in that job, where presumably your income will continue to rise commensurate with experience.

Dracophoenix 6y ago
That's not corrosive at all. If anything, it's the kind of thinking that leads to recognizing one's worth. No person should stay in a job in which he is of the view the he is not commensurately compensated. Nor should he wait for some vague future in which that might the case "eventually". This was the point of raising the minimum wage in the first place. Why would you think it just stops there?
EdwinLarkin 6y ago
His income will continue to rise but so will cries for progressive taxation on income or assets. It's a never ending story of jealousy and wealth inequality.
tootahe45 6y ago
In many ways he is losing out. Rent for example increases with ability to pay (in NZ at least), so if govt raised welfare payments and min wage, his rent could go up without seeing a wage increase. I do think it's OP fault for not taking action though, not the govt. It's like my dad who has complained he is underpaid for the past 10 years yet still doesn't switch job..

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

worker767424 6y ago

If it helps, a robot will be doing their job in 5 years.

Synaesthesia 6y ago
No it won't. A human will be flipping those burgers and serving them to customer.
- worker767424 6y ago
  They're already replacing cashiers with kiosks. No reason to think some of the relatively more mundane kitchen jobs aren't next.
  - Tade0 6y ago
    But robots don't actually replace these workers. In the case of McDonald's the kiosks only generated more throughput, actually adding work, so all the staff assigned to taking orders was put into other work. Meanwhile self-checkout, while actually reducing throughput somewhat, made it possible for the workers to take on other tasks in the store - of which there are many.
    - akvadrako 6y ago
      There isnt that many jobs in a grocery store that need many people. Stocking shelves and cleaning mostly. Once those are automated there will be a lot less jobs.
      - tootahe45 6y ago
        If the jobs were that easy to automate they would have been automated at the current rate. Min wage going from $18-20 doesn't suddenly make that all-in-one supermarket bot doable. Automating real world jobs is hard and often not viable especially for dynamic work. Even the no-brainier automation like self-checkouts are actually not saving much apparently. (could be false, heard it on a anti-min wage channel).

dbspin 6y ago

Yes. It's your wage that's the issue, not theirs. Feeling like you deserve more, should never be a reason to deprive others. New Zealands cost of living is extremely high, and wages need to be commensurate to allow ordinary social reproduction - marriage, children, rent, groceries.

kristopolous 6y ago

As does an adult with a family. People who work full-time deserve to not live in poverty. You make it sound like having a society where hard working people can feed their family is unfair to you. It's not. You're wrong.

xupybd 6y ago
An adult with a family should not be stuck at minimum wage. If they are that's a problem with the economy.
ZephyrBlu 6y ago
$20/hr in NZ is nowhere near poverty. It's 80% of what STEM grads typically earn, for bottom of the barrel work.
- kristopolous 6y ago
  So stem is still 25% more? Everyone who works hard has a right to live comfortably and not in fear of some giant cost coming forcing them to squirrel away piles of money. Stem should be about building tomorrow and making a better society, the personal fortune building has polluted the field and is distracting us from more important problems. Having a $500,000 stock portfolio shouldn't be mandatory for a decent life. There's a reason for our technological stagnations mapping to the rise in inequality.
  - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
    STEM jobs generally pay more than non-STEM jobs, and I'd say graduate jobs range between $20-26/hr. If someone without a degree is making $20/hr and you're making barely more than that, why the hell did you waste 4 years to get a degree? I know someone who is in this exact situation. The economics don't make sense.
    - kristopolous 6y ago
      Because you want to do it. I'd honestly still be a programmer if the pay was poor. In fact, I do it for free quite a bit and I enjoy it more. People are motivated by more than mindless greed and universities shouldn't be transactional skills training camps. It should be about building an enlightened and educated society. College tuition in New Zealand are not structured like the United States. It's much more reasonable

ohgodplsno 6y ago

So, McDonalds employees should not have a good salary because... It hurts your feelings? I've seen better arguments. You are playing exactly in the game that the extremely wealthy want you to play. Being disdainful or even hateful of the teenager that flips burgers all day long, while they delegate their entire work, do nothing but lines of cocaine and jet-ski while you kill yourself working 50 hours a week (most likely for them, too), earn hundreds to thousands of times your salary, yet the shit job that is making burgers is the problem?

lelanthran 6y ago
> You are playing exactly in the game that the extremely wealthy want you to play. The extremely wealthy probably don't care that much - they aren't reducing their income to afford an increased minimum wage, they're reducing yours. (Assuming, of course, that you are not part of the extremely wealthy). When a business's costs increase, they pass it on to the consumers (you). When they can't pass it on any further they reduce their costs, with the easiest cost to reduce being employee costs. Since they can't reduce the cost of minimum wage, they'll reduce the costs of the other employees. You can't rein in the excesses of the extremely rich by mandating minimum wage. You might be able to do so by regulation (tax rules, maybe? Clamping down on tax havens would do more to even things out than any other step you may wish to take).

dataflow 6y ago

I assume your objection is that this is unfair to you who spent all that time and effort into getting your current role? What would you have done differently had you known the future would be like this?

hkt 6y ago

50 hours a week sounds brutal. I don't see the problem with the teenager (or adult with family) earning $20, but maybe you should consider working somewhere with shorter days?

bawolff 6y ago

Maybe you're just not as good at your job or it isn't as valuable as you think it is. Capitalism isn't a senority system; degrees,experience and responsibility mean jack if you can't convince someone you are worth it. Alternatively, if you think flipping burgers for a "good fraction" of your current income is a good deal that you are envious of, then maybe you should go flip burgers. If not, what are you complaining about?

worker767424 6y ago

I looked at some tech jobs in Wellington and shocked at how little they pay compared to SF. The cost of living in cheaper, but not that much cheaper.

xupybd 6y ago
Yeah if you pair it with the average house price it's not great https://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/housing-affordability/124410237/wellington-citys-average-house-value-exceeds-1-million-and-the-rest-of-the-region-isnt-far-behind https://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/housing-affordability... Despite my comment I like life here. I wasn't really trying to give more than a data point from another part of the world. My personal view is that a strong enough economy should be able to provide most people with a better than minimum wage job. But if you bump the minimum wage too high you simply raise the price of everything.
ZephyrBlu 6y ago
NZ pay in general is very poor compared to other developed countries in my opinion. When you compare SF tech salaries to NZ tech salaries it's just ridiculous though. I would say SF TC is 4x or more than NZ salaries (Stock grants are not common) for similar positions.
- EdwinLarkin 6y ago
  SF salaries are ridiculous compared to anywhere else. Not even Switzerland can compare. The only places where you can earn just as much as you do in SF is consulting anywhere in the rich world or those few positions in Chinese megacities. I am actually surprised SF did not lower salaries exactly for this because there's nowhere else to go if you want to at least keep your SF salary.
  - xupybd 6y ago
    If you put the average software developers salary in NZ into USD you get $50211.93. From https://www.payscale.com/research/NZ/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/NZ/Job=Software_Engineer/S...

speedplane 6y ago

If you can work 50 hours a week, and can manage a team of people, it’s time to look beyond McDonalds.

silverpepsi 6y ago

Market signals can't go backwards in time so I feel like everyone replying is looking at this the wrong way. The learning here is that some fraction of new versions of this gentleman or lady xupybd will have a stronger market incentive to not go to the trouble and risk and just go for the guaranteed $20/hr making more competition for the $20 hr no education jobs. Maybe the higher IQ people will push average teenagers out of such jobs. Finally the market will equalize when the supply for 4 year degree jobs drops and they are forced to increase the pay.

xupybd 6y ago
Exactly this. I was working low wage jobs 6 days a week. That made me realize I couldn't support a family living like that. I went and got an engineering degree. I'm not sure I would have done that now.
- throwawayfrauds 6y ago
  If the pay was the same, would you seriously rather work at McDonald’s than at an engineering job? That seems unimaginable to me.
  - xupybd 6y ago
    Maybe not McDonald's but something outside with very little responsibility and a bit of exercise would be nice. Don't get me wrong I love to code and would probably find my self doing that again but every crunch time of an unrealistic deadline that had nothing to do with the effort required to complete the project has me fantasizing about spending six months in the summer picking fruit.

imtringued 6y ago

Yes, it's time to get a new job. That's the funny part about the minimum wage. The psychological effect causes people to seek better jobs, but that is about it.