17 ms·

Against Alcohol

144 points by marc__1 6y ago

shiftoutbox 6y ago
If I wasn’t drunk I would read it .
curiousfab 6y ago
Site hugged to death? I only get a database error. Archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20210409170904/https://fergus-mccullough.com/index.php/2021/04/09/against-alcohol/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210409170904/https://fergus-mc...
V-2 6y ago
"It can also exacerbate mental health problems, especially anxiety and depression. One major American study suggested that up to a quarter of young alcoholics have social anxiety disorder." The first sentence might be true for all I know, but I can't see how the second one makes for supporting evidence.
- kvgr 6y ago
  Alcohol is perfect “cure” for social anxiety. Short acting, but very efficient. Thats why anxious people tend to drink...
  - lanstin 6y ago
    And why parties are fun :)
- ahh 6y ago
  The causation is backwards! I'm not an alcoholic but I am an anxious wreck. Single best way to make me stop freaking out at a party? Two old fashioneds. I'd prefer to be gregarious and unworried sober, but that's not an option. (Yes, there are other approaches. This works better than all of them.)
  - watwut 6y ago
    Yes, alcohol works that way. But self medicating with alcohol is risk factor for alcohol dependence. That is why it is not prescribed for anxiety as a cure - long term results are not good.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    Right, but I think the point is that, while this method works best for you, there are also higher risks associated with it. And while you might be ok with just two drinks, others in your position might need three or four drinks to make them stop freaking out at a party. And still others might not need that many, but having a couple drinks might lead to more, as inhibitions are lowered and judgment is weakened.
  - agumonkey 6y ago
    once again my weird anecdote: I'm not a drinker, and used to be a recluse, but once in a while there's a birthday I cannot refuse. I get there, stay miserable, drink a bit, keeps miserable, gets home at 3am. I woke up at 7am like a champ, jumping out of bed as if it was a 2 weeks holidays. Alcohol gets very bad press today but for me, that tiny bit of alcohol helped me stay at a party which probably refueled some social needs (even if shallow).
koboll 6y ago
A lot of the points here talk specifically about the harms associated with binge drinking or alcoholism. Certainly, those are hazardous in many different ways. But "Against Alcohol" implies harms from any drinking so great that teetotaling is justified, which is questionable. There's little evidence that light or moderate drinking has major negative health effects. Anything under 10 drinks per week only has a very slight negative effect on all-cause mortality, and anything under 7 drinks per week has no effect: https://marlin-prod.literatumonline.com/cms/attachment/9e0c4d11-b5eb-433a-b6e7-e65d2114b8a6/gr1.jpg https://marlin-prod.literatumonline.com/cms/attachment/9e0c4... (A standard drink is 14 grams, so the 7 and 10 per week marks are just before 100 and 150 on the x-axis). Source: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)30134-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
- ljhsiung 6y ago
  I think there's 2 arguments here. One is, as you pointed out, binge drinking is bad for you. I think most people would agree. The second argument, primarily in the second half of the article, is that creating the conditions to easily permit binge drinking is just a severe a problem. >> It’s possible to consume alcohol in a safe manner... But at some margin, you are contributing to the idea that it’s normal to drink it. And we need to break down that norm. In other words, every drink you order in public has a >1 R0 to make one of your buddies also order a drink. Conversely, every drink you don't get has <1 R0. I'm sure we've all been in those situations at a bar where we say "I'll get (another) one if you get (another) one". That's why he vouches for abstinence. Not for health, but to discourage a binge drinking culture that's quite pervasive, in the UK especially.
- goonogle 6y ago
  As long as you don't become an addict. I think most people start with 4 drinks per week. 12 years later is a different story.
  - eikenberry 6y ago
    Assuming this site has decent numbers, in the US around 5% of people >26 years old have an "alcohol use disorder". Presumably the majority of those are addition disorders. But that means that after 12 years 95% of them will still be fine. https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/addiction-statistics https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/addiction-s...
goonogle 6y ago
I wish weed was socially acceptable like coffee. It makes me better, at least until tolerance hits. More focused and higher energy. No one gives me crap about shaky caffeine hands. Oh well I'm off everything now, the neutral state is okay, but I wonder if I lost potential.
- nate_meurer 6y ago
  In my very broad but loose social circle, I'd say cannabis is nearly as acceptable (and common) as coffee. I live in Colorado.
hprotagonist 6y ago
Ah, delightful. The progressive neo-puritanical fringe has come around to 1880 again; time to storm the bars with hatchets and howl for prohibition because that worked So Well last time!
- goonogle 6y ago
  Could be made socially unacceptable like smoking.
  - lumost 6y ago
    smoking really only became fashionable post-ww1. Alcohol consumption may have motivated early agriculture. It's unlikely that something as ingrained as alcohol will be made unfashionable except on multi-generational time scales. That being said, the current trend of alcohol in every aspect of life might become pase, as more individuals seek to avoid drunkeness/temptation outside of a bar.
  - sarsway 6y ago
    Or maybe just let be? What's up with this militant righteous, virtuous drive to force ideals upon others. Humans have been getting drunk on fermented crops since the dawn of time. But now, thanks to social media, people can comfortably invent some imaginary moral high ground from their homes, proclaiming the lifestyle of millions of fellow people unacceptable. Maybe expand the mind a bit, visit a strict Arab country or something. They don't drink much there. Has nothing to do with health though. It might help get a picture what kind of society they are advocating for.
    - kelnos 6y ago
      I don't think the point here is some righteous/virtuous one. The argument is that alcohol causes billions of dollars in increased health care costs and decreased productivity, and is a leading cause of death and other health issues. I'm all for dropping restrictions on things that people can do that don't harm anyone else, but frankly I don't care to spend more money on health insurance because a bunch of people want to drink too much.
vmception 6y ago
Prohibition is back on the menu! Any thoughts on how to avoid the folly of restriction on alcohol? There seems to be multi-pronged issues, one being that the chemical messes up our body and is largely incompatible, and even if we altered the chemical someway and left the fun effects, we still have the issue of people being taken advantage of while experiencing the effects. But the trade in alcohol is so great that any state sponsored curbs on consumption results in a worse illicit reality.
- zionic 6y ago
  We need to invent a new version of alcohol that somehow doesn’t damage the liver, and is ideally calorie free.
  - mszcz 6y ago
    I'd also throw in something about, you know, not damaging the brain in excess quantities ;)
  - vmception 6y ago
    which doesn't help the people being taken advantage of, but maybe ignore that because its not an alcohol specific issue as any influence can do that
  - readme 6y ago
    it's called autoerotic asphyxiation i don't recommend trying it
  - ruined 6y ago
    these exist. ghb, methqualone, barbiturates, and benzodiazepines all have a similar mechanism of action, cross-tolerance, and similar withdrawal syndromes, but fewer side-effects than alcohol. alcohol withdrawal is often treated with benzodiazepines. they are all heavily controlled, and benzodiazepines are considered some of the most damaging and addictive substances of abuse.
- thomasmiller_ 6y ago
  Probably an unpopular proposal, but higher taxes on alcohol?
antattack 6y ago
It's not alcohol - it's alcoholism that is a problem. Maybe age should not be the only requirement for alcohol consumption.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  Alcohol abuse is the problem; not all alcohol abuse is tied to alcoholism. Plenty of non-alcoholics abuse alcohol. (And some alcoholics don’t, though that’s a constant struggle.)
  - nate_meurer 6y ago
    How do you distinguish alcoholism from alcohol abuse? As an alcoholic myself, the terms have always meant the same thing to me.
    - notacoward 6y ago
      It's the difference between long-term dependency and short-term overuse. There's plenty of overlap, of course. Many people's need for alcohol leads to both behaviors. But they're still conceptually different things. It's possible, though perhaps rare, for an alcoholic to drink every day but never enough to be a danger to themselves or others. It's all too common for people in their teens or twenties to binge drink and get themselves or others killed, without ever being alcoholics.
      - nate_meurer 6y ago
        This doesn't seem like a useful distinction. There are plenty of people who will drink every day of their life in a way that evidences dependence, but with little or no evidence of abuse. I've had some of these in my family. They drank at the same time in the evening and in the same quantity every day for decades, and they were likely in some state of mild chemical dependence, but the addiction, as it were, never caused any trouble whatsoever. It's not useful to call these people alcoholics. Likewise, it would be absurd to label people who drink coffee or tea daily with "caffeinism", even if physical dependence is present. And we don't label people who are chemically dependent on anti-depressants with "SSRI-ism". In my mind, attaching an "ism" to a substance is only useful to identify pathology, which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with dependence.
johnorourke 6y ago
For anyone clicking through to the comments thinking "I think I sort of need to do something about this but it's too hard/inconvenient/boring/...", I'd like to highly recommend the book "This Naked Mind" by Annie Grace. It's about $7 on most electronic bookstores. Like everything we use to numb/escape our own minds, alcohol and all the marketing we're fed, and the examples we're set while growing up, make it easy to rationally think we should cut down but there's no way that message is going to be easily accepted by your subconscious! Other links: - https://www.oneyearnobeer.com/ https://www.oneyearnobeer.com/ - https://thisnakedmind.com/ https://thisnakedmind.com/ - https://medium.com/ainyf-alcohol-is-not-your-friend https://medium.com/ainyf-alcohol-is-not-your-friend HTH.
- sethjgore 6y ago
  I recommend the same book! It helped a lot with my struggles when i was younger.
- pattisapu 6y ago
  Thanks for these resources.
- gleenn 6y ago
  This is amazing. I just installed it (it's a free app with donations at the end) and is exactly the kind of format that I think will help me succeed at taking more control of my alcohol intake. It actually reminds me of the Ten Percent app which is also excellent if your looking for meditation help. I cringe when I say multimedia is what things need but I really think hearing people talk about what you're trying to accomplish is super helpful in staying motivated.
  - c0nducktr 6y ago
    Could you point me to the app you're talking about? I couldn't find it in any of the links.
    - gleenn 6y ago
      If you're an iPhone: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/the-alcohol-experiment-tae/id1532057624 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/the-alcohol-experiment-tae/id1... Not sure if they have an Android or other version.
mlazos 6y ago
I find that reading many many articles like these enough has me at least feel a little guilty before grabbing a drink with friends, and I think even that small amount of guilt has reduced my consumption significantly.
KozmoNau7 6y ago
The issue is not the existence of alcohol itself. The problem is drinking culture and lax/accepting/apologetic attitudes towards excessive alcohol consumption. That's why a ban on alcohol won't work this time, either.
- lostlogin 6y ago
  Some of the proposals were for things like higher tax, bit a straight ban. And this changed the behaviour of those most at risk.
mattnewton 6y ago
I think an under-appreciated angle here is that alcohol, like most other addictions, has a major mental health component. How many alcoholics are self medicating with cheap and easily accessible palliatives, and how many are addicted because of social norms? I’m not sure how to measure that but from personal anecdotal experience I would expect the former to be an order of magnitude larger. I also think if we look at it from a human suffering perspective as humanists, the Christian moral angle is unneeded. We can offer alternatives to alcohol that are better for people by understanding why they drink. Mental health and general life satisfaction are certainly reasons we would need to tackle for the worst cases, in addition to the established rituals the article talks about. Making moral arguments primarily through Christian theories of sin is a major reason the last temperance movement (in the US) failed, because it did not understand the reasons people drank and offer any alternatives.
- 123pie123 6y ago
  From my basic experience and observations of living in the UK (in some not very affluent areas), alcohol is used mainly to relieve daily stresses and the obvious social norms. I suspect society has normalised taking alcohol to numb daily stresses or problems. So any sudden top down decision to ban it or trying to force a reduction in consumption by raising the prices would be met by a very forceful backlash. Any reduction would have to be conducted with a long term plan that redirects people from this reaction to stress and also for me, alcohol has seemingly helped me through depression , along with excerse
v_london 6y ago
Problem with government-run alcohol shops is how they reduce available selection of drinks. I'm an avid whisky drinker (though in moderation of course), and being able to buy rarer bottles from specialist shops adds a lot to the experience. It also helps small producers since they don't have to negotiate with a behemoth of a stockist (imagine if the only way to sell whisky would be to negotiate a deal with the state to stock the entire UK's alcohol shops). The ABV limit has also caused trouble in the beer industry where types of beers that require higher ABV aren't produced. I think the minimum pricing law of Scotland is the way to go when regulating alcohol. When I was living there, the system seemed to work well and incentivised buying higher quality drinks as well. I guess the problem is populist politicians who could easily brand it as limiting poor people's drinking, instead of posh ones.
- kelnos 6y ago
  The thing that's odd to me about only allowing sales from government-run shops is that it's entirely unnecessary. There's no material difference between a government-run shop and the type of privately-run specialist shop you mention. The government can still require that specialist shop to have the same restricted hours that a government-run shop might have. I live in a state where restrictions on alcohol sales are pretty limited; grocery stores and corner/convenience stores, for example, can sell whatever they want alcohol-wise. Many stores will keep the more expensive stuff in locked cabinets as a shoplifting-prevention measure. I don't think it'd be too crazy to require that all hard liquors be kept that way, and then sales there can even be restricted by time of day if that was desirable. Beer and wine could be left as-is, with no restrictions. (On the downside, this would hurt smaller shops that aren't specifically liquor stores; locked cabinets are an added expense and take up more space.)
  - IshKebab 6y ago
    Yeah there are already supermarkets that aren't allowed to sell alcohol outside certain hours. I don't know why you need an entire chain of government run shops for that.
  - xyzzy123 6y ago
enw 6y ago
What about: drugs are fun?
- sgt101 6y ago
  the big subtext is : "that's fun, it must be stopped".
- thrower123 6y ago
  Beer is proof that god loves us
- whateveracct 6y ago
  HN is, for the most part, straight edge as can be about drugs. The only time weed or other drugs are mentioned favorably is when they have some "objective value." Prevailing opinion of HN comments seems to be getting a lil stupid for fun is Bad.
  - minimuffins 6y ago
    I don't know, I have seen a lot of pro LSD and psilocybin mushroom micro-dosing posts and comments. I think this place still has a generally libertarian ethos and most people think of drugs questions as best sorted out by a rational market. (My own take is different from that, fwiw). > Prevailing opinion of HN comments seems to be getting a lil stupid for fun is Bad. That part might be true. I think there's a tendency to be a little robotic/scientistic/productivist about...just about every topic.
    - pcthrowaway 6y ago
      > The only time weed or other drugs are mentioned favorably is when they have some "objective value." > I don't know, I have seen a lot of pro LSD and psilocybin mushroom micro-dosing posts and comments These ideas are very much in line with each other. The pro-psychedelic comments very often talk about the "objective" value (studies on mental health benefits and comparative safety) rather than only the subjective experience or ethics of criminalization. Personally I want all drugs legalized on ethics/freedom principles, but especially with Psilocybin, MDMA, and Ketamine there seems to be a mounting wealth of evidence suggesting these things are miracle drugs in many respects.
rcpt 6y ago
For anyone unfamiliar David Nutt is the drug researcher responsible for this informative chart https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Development_of_a_rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_of_potential_misuse_(physical_harm_and_dependence,_NA_free_means).svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Development_of_a_ration... He was chairman of the UKs Advisory Council on Misuse of Drugs for seven years until his dismissal for advocating that that illicit drugs should be classified according to the actual evidence of the harm they cause. In Nutts ranking, alcohol and tobacco were more harmful than LSD, ecstasy or cannabis and should thus be subject to stricter regulations.
- S_A_P 6y ago
  Its kind of interesting to see which substances people wont give up vs what is seen as a 'menace to society'. Plotted on a graph I suspect we would see Alcohol and Opiates closer together than many other drugs. On the other hand, drinking alcohol is human tradition dating back thousands of years- how do you unwind this? Do we really want to regulate alcohol more strictly? The last time the US tried that it backfired as bad or worse as the war on drugs.
  - rcpt 6y ago
    Opium goes back thousands of years to. Honestly I don't know how it came to be demonized.
- root_axis 6y ago
  Seems somewhat oversimplified. It's much easier to "overdose" on LSD or MDMA than tobacco or alcohol. Additionally, frequent use of LSD and MDMA have pretty severe health consequences much sooner than frequent use of tobacco or alcohol. I'd also add that LSD poses a similar driving hazard to alcohol. On the other hand, tobacco and alcohol don't have any therapeutic qualities unlike MDMA and LSD. Personally. I think alcohol's harm is amplified by its prevalence throughout society, if one could buy MDMA and LSD at every shop and venue it'd be a disaster on par or worse than alcohol. edit: adding some sources https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0007091217350845 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000709121... https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medicine/article/paradoxical-psychological-effects-of-lysergic-acid-diethylamide-lsd/FA7A234B809A951253AF5C29AC79CA4A https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medici...
k__ 6y ago
I didn't drink, since the pandemic hit and feel rather good. For me most bad habits come down to peer pressure or boredom. I drink socially and people often gift me drinks in the club. Sometimes the parties are boring and I drink a bit so I stop caring. That all went away with Corona.
kasperni 6y ago
David Nutt (the author of the book that was reviwed) is a professor at Imperial College London. He was famously fired as the UK government's chief drug adviser for saying that alcohol and tobacco are more harmful than many recreational drugs. I've seen his harm score chart quite a few times here on HN [1] [1] https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/06/25/what-is-the-most-dangerous-drug https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/06/25/what-is-...
- quasarj 6y ago
  lol but there is not now, nor has there ever been, any question that alcohol and tobacco are more harmful than other recreational drugs...
  - minimuffins 6y ago
    Yeah but you'll notice having the facts and convincing everybody of the facts against the grain of industrial propaganda is not a trivial task.
- sideshowb 6y ago
  He's also, iirc, working on getting a healthier, synthetic, reversible alternative to alcohol approved in legislation. But I'm not holding my breath
  - LeoPanthera 6y ago
    If they don't call it synthehol I will be very disappointed.
  - emsy 6y ago
    It already exists: GHB. The problem is the drug’s reputation and the problem with dosage, which could be alleviated when legalized. It’s also addictive but then again, so is alcohol but alcohol wrecks your health.
    - Tenoke 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
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hintymad 6y ago
A friend of mine once told me that he was fortunate to have Asian flush. ADH2 deficiency makes him unable to enjoy alcohol, so he would never get alcohol addiction either.
- CoastalCoder 6y ago
  To me, alcohol tastes like what I imagine turpentine tastes like (based on turpentine's scent). It makes me less fun at parties, but I can only imagine how much trouble I've avoided because of this.
  - orangecat 6y ago
    Same here. It might be genetic: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alcohol-taste-genes/genes-influence-taste-and-possibly-use-of-alcohol-idUSKCN0HL23U20140926 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alcohol-taste-genes/genes...
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  Addiction does not require enjoyment, and while ADH2*2 (the particular gene associated with the “Asian flush”) does reduce the risk of alcoholism, it doesn’t seem to be a guarantee against it, at all.
globular-toast 6y ago
There's a few talks by David Nutt available on YouTube and they're well worth watching. One of the most interesting things he mentions is a possible antidote for alcohol. It's theoretical but seems like it should be possible but nobody seems interested in developing it. The other thing is how the alcohol industry drive a lot of the fear and hysteria around other drugs. Loads of people die every single day as a direct result of alcohol, but the one time a girl died while using ecstasy the media went into a frenzy about it. The alcohol industry seems to me as bad as the tobacco industry. I've been teetotal for coming up to two years now. I feel better than ever. Alcohol has no positive effects. It serves only to numb the senses. I prefer to experience the world in all its glory. Luckily it's very easy to be teetotal now. As Nutt mentions, you do need to have a glass of drink (that isn't water) at all times in social settings, but I can get a lime soda anywhere and now have a mocktail from many places. Loads of people don't drink either for health reasons, religious or just because they don't want to. It's easy.
- lanstin 6y ago
  When I was a young adult, the rule for meals or other food events for the Episcopal Church in North Carolina was if you serve alcohol you must serve an equally attractive non alcoholic drink. I.E. not water/three cool beers/2 wines, but you know equal. I follow that principal myself and it seems right. It also helps people from drinking a bit then a bit too much, if they wish.
djoldman 6y ago
As has been repeated many times before, it's hard to protect people from themselves while at the same time allowing them to be independent and free. Many things people put into their bodies hurt them in the long run and sometimes the more the faster. Should we prevent them from doing it? In the US, we mostly say no. It seems to me that most Americans are ok with that.
- thatcat 6y ago
  In other parts of the US we mostly say Yes, except for alcohol and cigs.
- sesuximo 6y ago
  I think this is true. But there are some ways I think the US inadvertently creates a culture of getting drunk rather than a culture of drinking e.g. many states allow zero underage drinking (so ppl illegally do it anyway and to excess) and we make every other drug illegal (again, depends a bit by state). Maybe these restrictions do more good than harm. But they definitely do some harm.
JadoJodo 6y ago
The article's conclusions aside, I wonder how many people enjoy the taste of alcohol itself? While my personal beliefs prohibit me from imbibing in a way that would cause inebriation/dependence (and getting buzzed fits in the former), I have tried most kinds of alcohol and have never really "gotten" it. A coworker bought me my first drink on my 21st (a bottle of Jack Daniel's) and a friend made me a Jack and Coke with it. Halfway through the glass I just wanted a plain coke. Since then, I've tried a wide variety of beer, wine, rum, bourbon, etc and have only once come away from the experience with a "I didn't hate that/I'd buy that again.". The vast majority of the time I've failed to finish what I'm served (or do so out of politeness) and reflect that I'm simply "missing the point" because I'm not interested in inebriation/"buzzed". I'm sure there are those that enjoy the flavor (perhaps in the same way that I "enjoy" very spicy hot sauce), but wanted to ask.
- The_rationalist 6y ago
  Some alcohols are the best drinks I've ever tasted such as Caipirinha with strawberry and a lot of sugar. If only I could achieve this taste without alcohol. (note that I rarely drink so my taste is not amplified by an addiction). Unfortunately such alcohols 1) have a lot of sugar and 2) are not mainstream in my culture but this is e.g in Brazil.
- d0mine 6y ago
  Alcohol is a poison. You don't drink it for the taste. Certainly, not the first time you drink it.
- falcor84 6y ago
  I don't know if it's just the taste or some conditioned response, but having a glass of cold lager (or particularly a pilsner) at the end of a long day tastes like heaven to me, in a way that no other drink does.
- zeroimpl 6y ago
  I’m similar - rarely drink and dislike most alcoholic drinks - except that I have found certain flavors I like. Usually it’s sweetened wines, or cider. Also it’s often about pairing - the acidity or tartness sometimes just hits the spot. Good things to compare to are: - spicy food - stinky foods (eg cheese) - coffee All of the above are acquired tastes. I could barely eat spicy before, now I love it. Stinky cheese makes we want to vomit, but others enjoy it. I only drink decaf, yet periodically enjoy a black coffee, something which seemed absurd when I was younger. To me alcohol is just one more flavor option. I wouldn’t want it banned just because other people can’t control themselves.
thenoblesunfish 6y ago
He seems to be deliberately missing the point. Obviously drinking, especially heavily, is bad for health and plenty of other things. The question is why people still get so much benefit out of it that they keep doing it, despite the downsides. I‘d posit that social lubrication is something people want, and sadly in the UK, self-medication is something a lot of people turn to.
- 01100011 6y ago
  Agreed. Something in us seems to require exogenous chemicals to facilitate social interaction and bonding. I don't think it necessarily has to be that way, but it is. You can't talk about getting rid of alcohol or tobacco without discussing their benefits and offering alternatives.
- P9dCddDPe7j 6y ago
  > The question is why people still get so much benefit out of it that they keep doing it, despite the downsides. No, this isn't even the question. It is clear that people will keep doing things that have downsides, with out any explainable benefit. This is called addiction. It isn't a new idea.
  - lanstin 6y ago
    People clearly derive benefit from drinking; not the hard core alcoholics but the shy guy that likes to tell stories volubly and dance with less shame.
    - P9dCddDPe7j 6y ago
      > People clearly derive benefit from drinking; not the hard core alcoholics This part is what I was commenting about. Not your shy guy.
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    So I have alcohol a few times a month when I go socially with friends and now I'm an alcoholic. Hokay then! Is that why alcohol (whiskey/vodka/rum) sits on my counter for literally months (couple of years?) before completely consumed? That definitely seems very addictive of me.
tayo42 6y ago
I was thinking the other day the world would be a better place if alcohol wasn't so prevalent and alternatives were available. Everything defaults to including some kind of alcohol, it just makes people insufferable and sleezy to be around when you're not part of the drinkers (even sometimes when you are part of them). Doesn't everyone cringe when you have a nice spot outdoors and a group shows up with a 6 pack each or a case of bud lights? Even in the last year you can look at the pandemic response, so much of the unhappiness was around the fact bars were closed. The world is ending because you can't drink? People were outraged, Its bizarre. Theres also a travel gatekeeping thing around visiting bars that is odd too. The idea where you need to go to some dive bar in a foreign place to really get the culture. The article is kind of right, cheap alcohol culture kind of just preys on people who can't help themselves. There isn't anything of substance going on when cheap alcohol is involved. I don't really drink much anymore, maybe one or two drinks,a good wine or interesting cocktail. Alcohol kind of physically hurts now. All about the dabs, psychedelics and mdma. Imagine a world where those can be a regular alternative to excessive drinking at a bar. There might still be drug abusers but atleast we would all be a little more relaxed.
- nottorp 6y ago
  > Even in the last year you can look at the pandemic response, so much of the unhappiness was around the fact bars were closed. The world is ending because you can't drink? People were outraged, Its bizarre. No, they were outraged because they couldn't meet their friends. If they just wanted to drink, they could have got alcohol from supermarkets.
  - tayo42 6y ago
    You can see your friends without a bar too. Bars being closed was a huge thing for people. Opening bars up was more important then getting kids back to school. https://www.epi.org/blog/we-prioritized-open-bars-before-giving-resources-to-schools-how-the-u-s-coronavirus-response-has-failed-students-and-teachers/ https://www.epi.org/blog/we-prioritized-open-bars-before-giv... https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/12/03/macs-staten-island-bar-covid-cuomo/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/12/03/macs-staten... > “The people have rights!” one protester yelled, reported the Daily News. “Open the door, I’m thirsty!”
whateveracct 6y ago
Nothing wrong with getting shtupid for fun. ofc treat the it with the respect you'd treat any recreational drug.
nottorp 6y ago
If you ask me, a depressing life leads to alcohol abuse. And I say that as someone who never drinks alone; I do drink regularly with friends, and if i get wasted in a group, that's it. Societies that have a problem with alcohol abuse need to change the society.
Barrin92 6y ago
>There is enough evidence here to make a strong case against alcohol on a number of grounds (which Nutt himself does not quite do). Alcohol is a drain on economic growth, damaging our productivity and forcing us to spend money on healthcare that could be used elsewhere. The CDC estimated the cost of hangovers to the American economy as $249bn in 2010. The Institute of Alcohol Studies estimates a cost of £1.4bn a year for British productivity. And therein lies the core argument of the entire piece. Good old fashioned Anglo capitalist puritanism. Don't have fun that could be harmful or dangerous, don't have any pleasure, optimize your life for GDP and close your eyes and think of England. I seriously wonder why people who argue along these lines and apparently write an entire book on the dangers of alcohol don't just skip that part and go to the actually interesting question and ask themselves why people still drink or do any other drug, because we all know that it's dangerous and harmful etc. But drugs are also a part of our culture, of our social life, they can be a source for creativity or just for pleasure. There's another interesting little bit in the piece >"Left unaddressed is why we think that alcohol is necessary to any of those (good and often great) rituals. It’s not. I don’t see why you can’t get most of those social benefits anyway." I seriously wonder how long you have to hit people on the head with Tyler Cowen books until they actually start to believe this stuff. A ritual is a sacred, integrated activity. It's not some autistic utilitarian thing where you can rip a part out and 'get the social benefits'. You take one part out, the entire thing falls apart. But I don't think people who think like this even have any religious or aesthetic appreciation any more to understand this.
- nottorp 6y ago
  > Alcohol is a drain on economic growth, damaging our productivity and forcing us to spend money on healthcare that could be used elsewhere. The CDC estimated the cost of hangovers to the American economy as $249bn in 2010. The Institute of Alcohol Studies estimates a cost of £1.4bn a year for British productivity. So? You live to work? Incidentally, it's not hard to learn how to drink all night without having a hangover the next day. Look at tonics or water your wine. Easy peasy.
dabbledash 6y ago
It really feels like we’re experiencing a rebirth of puritanism. Yes, alcohol is worse for your health than no alcohol. That’s almost certainly true even for “moderate” drinkers. People do it for pleasure. A “case against alcohol” that doesn’t address this very real benefit is unlikely to have any impact, except with people who have decided that pleasure itself is suspect at best.
- thatcat 6y ago
  Alcohol is a neurotoxin and causes brain damage. Drink it if you want, it's no better than illegal drugs people consume for pleasure though. At least some of those aren't neurotoxic...
  - xvedejas 6y ago
    It is hardly clear that low amounts of alcohol (on the order of 1 drink/day) are deleterious. The body has a true ability for homeostasis, and almost anything in excess will lead to problems. Alcohol's threshold for excess is regrettably low, for sure, but I think it's nonzero.
    - thatcat 6y ago
      There is no lower limit for alcohol being neurotoxic, which my asian engineering teachers were always careful to remind us when teaching fermentation process design. Not noticing the minor amount it causes doesn't mean it isn't slowly happening.
      - xvedejas 6y ago
        This isn't about the drinker noticing, this is about measurable physiological outcomes. Longevity, for instance, is not clearly affected by low levels of alcohol consumption. Not to question your Engineering teachers; I wasn't there and don't know the context, but there isn't a strong scientific basis behind the assertion that "there is no lower limit for alcohol being neurotoxic".
samcodes 6y ago
I think alcohol and tobacco use are primarily symptoms, not causes, of problems. They, along with depression, anxiety, ADHD, and other addictions, are strongly correlated with ACE (adverse childhood experience) score. As smoking has become taboo, other stimulants became more popular (adult ADD). I'd expect something similar if we restricted alcohol without solving the problems that lead to dependency.
golemiprague 6y ago
Maybe the title should end with "In the UK". For example, in Japan there is not much alcohol derived violence as in the UK. In the mediterrenian countries there is not so much binge drinking like in the UK. In Australia there are much stricter rules on where you can buy and consume alcohol than in the UK and still their drink patterns are more simliar to the UK than to mediterrenian countries. In Jewish Orthodox communities Alcohol is used almost solely for religious ceremonies and not too many people drink at all, although it is allowed. So each culture have different relationship with alcohol, both in terms of conumption and the effect on society, and this needs to be acknowledged.
readme 6y ago
beer is a food food is a human right therefore beer is a human right
ceilingcorner 6y ago
I have noticed that Anglo-American cultures tend to have two reactions to substances: over-indulgence and total abolition. It strikes me as a very unhealthy relationship. Places in Southern Europe like France or Italy have a much more reasonable approach to alcohol. Perhaps we should aim to emulate them and not continue teetering between being teetotalers and drunkards.
- tomxor 6y ago
  > I have noticed The extremes, the noisy, stereotypes and what media like to focus on get noticed. The rest of us in the 90% who just have a little bit with a meal occasionally never get noticed. So comparisons between countries and cultures has more to do with perception than statistics.
  - ceilingcorner 6y ago
    I am basing my observations on firsthand experience, not media impressions.
    - tomxor 6y ago
      exactly
benlumen 6y ago
Interested in this claim that 1.6M in the UK have some level of alcohol dependence, because I’d be amazed if it’s that low.
- lanstin 6y ago
  I spent a year studying maths at Oxford (from North Carolina) and my God could the British students drink. At no point ever in my life could I get thru in one night what they drank night after night. And I like a good beering night with my friends as much as anyone.
kdtop3 6y ago
I find the graph that others link to [1] to be confusing at best. It seems to be tabulating *absolute harm* over all users. So if a substance has many users, it has more total harm. But then the substances are ranked in a way that seems to imply the intrinsic danger of it all by itself. Thus alcohol may cause more damage on a national level than crack cocaine. But tracking the lives of 1 user of alcohol vs 1 user of crack cocaine would show, IMHO, the cocaine use to lead to more problems. A similar analogy would be to compare the relative danger of automobiles to atomic bombs. [1] https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/06/25/what-is-the-most-dangerous-drug https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/06/25/what-is-...
stunt 6y ago
I drink moderately and I think it's a personal choice. I also think alcoholism is completely different subject. What I don't like however is all the smart product placements that push people that don't otherwise enjoy drinking into it.
anm89 6y ago
Take it from my cold drunk hands. I could try to make different arguments as to why I want to retain my right to drink. But that's the wrong strategy. The better answer is, you can't stop me. I do t owe anyone an explanation for what I put in my own body. I don't have to defend it. I do it or not because I want to or don't. And you're going to have to stop me by force if that is your goal. To defend it gives the puritans credibility. You don't owe them an explanation.
RickJWagner 6y ago
Former binge drinker here. I quit drinking about 20 years ago, don't miss it a bit.
dasKrokodil 6y ago
From the article: > Nutt has his own set of policy solutions, and I think they’d be great: [...] stop selling strong alcohol in supermarkets [...] I'm not sure whether this would really change anything. People get can and do get wasted on beer and wine just fine.

144 points by marc__1 6y ago

If I wasn’t drunk I would read it .

Site hugged to death? I only get a database error. Archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20210409170904/https://fergus-mccullough.com/index.php/2021/04/09/against-alcohol/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210409170904/https://fergus-mc...

V-2 6y ago

"It can also exacerbate mental health problems, especially anxiety and depression. One major American study suggested that up to a quarter of young alcoholics have social anxiety disorder." The first sentence might be true for all I know, but I can't see how the second one makes for supporting evidence.

kvgr 6y ago
Alcohol is perfect “cure” for social anxiety. Short acting, but very efficient. Thats why anxious people tend to drink...
- lanstin 6y ago
  And why parties are fun :)
ahh 6y ago
The causation is backwards! I'm not an alcoholic but I am an anxious wreck. Single best way to make me stop freaking out at a party? Two old fashioneds. I'd prefer to be gregarious and unworried sober, but that's not an option. (Yes, there are other approaches. This works better than all of them.)
- watwut 6y ago
  Yes, alcohol works that way. But self medicating with alcohol is risk factor for alcohol dependence. That is why it is not prescribed for anxiety as a cure - long term results are not good.
- kelnos 6y ago
  Right, but I think the point is that, while this method works best for you, there are also higher risks associated with it. And while you might be ok with just two drinks, others in your position might need three or four drinks to make them stop freaking out at a party. And still others might not need that many, but having a couple drinks might lead to more, as inhibitions are lowered and judgment is weakened.
- agumonkey 6y ago
  once again my weird anecdote: I'm not a drinker, and used to be a recluse, but once in a while there's a birthday I cannot refuse. I get there, stay miserable, drink a bit, keeps miserable, gets home at 3am. I woke up at 7am like a champ, jumping out of bed as if it was a 2 weeks holidays. Alcohol gets very bad press today but for me, that tiny bit of alcohol helped me stay at a party which probably refueled some social needs (even if shallow).

koboll 6y ago

A lot of the points here talk specifically about the harms associated with binge drinking or alcoholism. Certainly, those are hazardous in many different ways. But "Against Alcohol" implies harms from any drinking so great that teetotaling is justified, which is questionable. There's little evidence that light or moderate drinking has major negative health effects. Anything under 10 drinks per week only has a very slight negative effect on all-cause mortality, and anything under 7 drinks per week has no effect: https://marlin-prod.literatumonline.com/cms/attachment/9e0c4d11-b5eb-433a-b6e7-e65d2114b8a6/gr1.jpg https://marlin-prod.literatumonline.com/cms/attachment/9e0c4... (A standard drink is 14 grams, so the 7 and 10 per week marks are just before 100 and 150 on the x-axis). Source: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)30134-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

ljhsiung 6y ago
I think there's 2 arguments here. One is, as you pointed out, binge drinking is bad for you. I think most people would agree. The second argument, primarily in the second half of the article, is that creating the conditions to easily permit binge drinking is just a severe a problem. >> It’s possible to consume alcohol in a safe manner... But at some margin, you are contributing to the idea that it’s normal to drink it. And we need to break down that norm. In other words, every drink you order in public has a >1 R0 to make one of your buddies also order a drink. Conversely, every drink you don't get has <1 R0. I'm sure we've all been in those situations at a bar where we say "I'll get (another) one if you get (another) one". That's why he vouches for abstinence. Not for health, but to discourage a binge drinking culture that's quite pervasive, in the UK especially.
goonogle 6y ago
As long as you don't become an addict. I think most people start with 4 drinks per week. 12 years later is a different story.
- eikenberry 6y ago
  Assuming this site has decent numbers, in the US around 5% of people >26 years old have an "alcohol use disorder". Presumably the majority of those are addition disorders. But that means that after 12 years 95% of them will still be fine. https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/addiction-statistics https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/addiction-s...

goonogle 6y ago

I wish weed was socially acceptable like coffee. It makes me better, at least until tolerance hits. More focused and higher energy. No one gives me crap about shaky caffeine hands. Oh well I'm off everything now, the neutral state is okay, but I wonder if I lost potential.

nate_meurer 6y ago
In my very broad but loose social circle, I'd say cannabis is nearly as acceptable (and common) as coffee. I live in Colorado.

hprotagonist 6y ago

Ah, delightful. The progressive neo-puritanical fringe has come around to 1880 again; time to storm the bars with hatchets and howl for prohibition because that worked So Well last time!

goonogle 6y ago
Could be made socially unacceptable like smoking.
- lumost 6y ago
  smoking really only became fashionable post-ww1. Alcohol consumption may have motivated early agriculture. It's unlikely that something as ingrained as alcohol will be made unfashionable except on multi-generational time scales. That being said, the current trend of alcohol in every aspect of life might become pase, as more individuals seek to avoid drunkeness/temptation outside of a bar.
- sarsway 6y ago
  Or maybe just let be? What's up with this militant righteous, virtuous drive to force ideals upon others. Humans have been getting drunk on fermented crops since the dawn of time. But now, thanks to social media, people can comfortably invent some imaginary moral high ground from their homes, proclaiming the lifestyle of millions of fellow people unacceptable. Maybe expand the mind a bit, visit a strict Arab country or something. They don't drink much there. Has nothing to do with health though. It might help get a picture what kind of society they are advocating for.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    I don't think the point here is some righteous/virtuous one. The argument is that alcohol causes billions of dollars in increased health care costs and decreased productivity, and is a leading cause of death and other health issues. I'm all for dropping restrictions on things that people can do that don't harm anyone else, but frankly I don't care to spend more money on health insurance because a bunch of people want to drink too much.

vmception 6y ago

Prohibition is back on the menu! Any thoughts on how to avoid the folly of restriction on alcohol? There seems to be multi-pronged issues, one being that the chemical messes up our body and is largely incompatible, and even if we altered the chemical someway and left the fun effects, we still have the issue of people being taken advantage of while experiencing the effects. But the trade in alcohol is so great that any state sponsored curbs on consumption results in a worse illicit reality.

zionic 6y ago
We need to invent a new version of alcohol that somehow doesn’t damage the liver, and is ideally calorie free.
- mszcz 6y ago
  I'd also throw in something about, you know, not damaging the brain in excess quantities ;)
- vmception 6y ago
  which doesn't help the people being taken advantage of, but maybe ignore that because its not an alcohol specific issue as any influence can do that
- readme 6y ago
  it's called autoerotic asphyxiation i don't recommend trying it
- ruined 6y ago
  these exist. ghb, methqualone, barbiturates, and benzodiazepines all have a similar mechanism of action, cross-tolerance, and similar withdrawal syndromes, but fewer side-effects than alcohol. alcohol withdrawal is often treated with benzodiazepines. they are all heavily controlled, and benzodiazepines are considered some of the most damaging and addictive substances of abuse.
thomasmiller_ 6y ago
Probably an unpopular proposal, but higher taxes on alcohol?

antattack 6y ago

It's not alcohol - it's alcoholism that is a problem. Maybe age should not be the only requirement for alcohol consumption.

dragonwriter 6y ago
Alcohol abuse is the problem; not all alcohol abuse is tied to alcoholism. Plenty of non-alcoholics abuse alcohol. (And some alcoholics don’t, though that’s a constant struggle.)
- nate_meurer 6y ago
  How do you distinguish alcoholism from alcohol abuse? As an alcoholic myself, the terms have always meant the same thing to me.
  - notacoward 6y ago
    It's the difference between long-term dependency and short-term overuse. There's plenty of overlap, of course. Many people's need for alcohol leads to both behaviors. But they're still conceptually different things. It's possible, though perhaps rare, for an alcoholic to drink every day but never enough to be a danger to themselves or others. It's all too common for people in their teens or twenties to binge drink and get themselves or others killed, without ever being alcoholics.
    - nate_meurer 6y ago
      This doesn't seem like a useful distinction. There are plenty of people who will drink every day of their life in a way that evidences dependence, but with little or no evidence of abuse. I've had some of these in my family. They drank at the same time in the evening and in the same quantity every day for decades, and they were likely in some state of mild chemical dependence, but the addiction, as it were, never caused any trouble whatsoever. It's not useful to call these people alcoholics. Likewise, it would be absurd to label people who drink coffee or tea daily with "caffeinism", even if physical dependence is present. And we don't label people who are chemically dependent on anti-depressants with "SSRI-ism". In my mind, attaching an "ism" to a substance is only useful to identify pathology, which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with dependence.

johnorourke 6y ago

For anyone clicking through to the comments thinking "I think I sort of need to do something about this but it's too hard/inconvenient/boring/...", I'd like to highly recommend the book "This Naked Mind" by Annie Grace. It's about $7 on most electronic bookstores. Like everything we use to numb/escape our own minds, alcohol and all the marketing we're fed, and the examples we're set while growing up, make it easy to rationally think we should cut down but there's no way that message is going to be easily accepted by your subconscious! Other links: - https://www.oneyearnobeer.com/ https://www.oneyearnobeer.com/ - https://thisnakedmind.com/ https://thisnakedmind.com/ - https://medium.com/ainyf-alcohol-is-not-your-friend https://medium.com/ainyf-alcohol-is-not-your-friend HTH.

sethjgore 6y ago
I recommend the same book! It helped a lot with my struggles when i was younger.
pattisapu 6y ago
Thanks for these resources.
gleenn 6y ago
This is amazing. I just installed it (it's a free app with donations at the end) and is exactly the kind of format that I think will help me succeed at taking more control of my alcohol intake. It actually reminds me of the Ten Percent app which is also excellent if your looking for meditation help. I cringe when I say multimedia is what things need but I really think hearing people talk about what you're trying to accomplish is super helpful in staying motivated.
- c0nducktr 6y ago
  Could you point me to the app you're talking about? I couldn't find it in any of the links.
  - gleenn 6y ago
    If you're an iPhone: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/the-alcohol-experiment-tae/id1532057624 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/the-alcohol-experiment-tae/id1... Not sure if they have an Android or other version.

mlazos 6y ago

I find that reading many many articles like these enough has me at least feel a little guilty before grabbing a drink with friends, and I think even that small amount of guilt has reduced my consumption significantly.

KozmoNau7 6y ago

The issue is not the existence of alcohol itself. The problem is drinking culture and lax/accepting/apologetic attitudes towards excessive alcohol consumption. That's why a ban on alcohol won't work this time, either.

lostlogin 6y ago
Some of the proposals were for things like higher tax, bit a straight ban. And this changed the behaviour of those most at risk.

mattnewton 6y ago

I think an under-appreciated angle here is that alcohol, like most other addictions, has a major mental health component. How many alcoholics are self medicating with cheap and easily accessible palliatives, and how many are addicted because of social norms? I’m not sure how to measure that but from personal anecdotal experience I would expect the former to be an order of magnitude larger. I also think if we look at it from a human suffering perspective as humanists, the Christian moral angle is unneeded. We can offer alternatives to alcohol that are better for people by understanding why they drink. Mental health and general life satisfaction are certainly reasons we would need to tackle for the worst cases, in addition to the established rituals the article talks about. Making moral arguments primarily through Christian theories of sin is a major reason the last temperance movement (in the US) failed, because it did not understand the reasons people drank and offer any alternatives.

123pie123 6y ago
From my basic experience and observations of living in the UK (in some not very affluent areas), alcohol is used mainly to relieve daily stresses and the obvious social norms. I suspect society has normalised taking alcohol to numb daily stresses or problems. So any sudden top down decision to ban it or trying to force a reduction in consumption by raising the prices would be met by a very forceful backlash. Any reduction would have to be conducted with a long term plan that redirects people from this reaction to stress and also for me, alcohol has seemingly helped me through depression , along with excerse

v_london 6y ago

Problem with government-run alcohol shops is how they reduce available selection of drinks. I'm an avid whisky drinker (though in moderation of course), and being able to buy rarer bottles from specialist shops adds a lot to the experience. It also helps small producers since they don't have to negotiate with a behemoth of a stockist (imagine if the only way to sell whisky would be to negotiate a deal with the state to stock the entire UK's alcohol shops). The ABV limit has also caused trouble in the beer industry where types of beers that require higher ABV aren't produced. I think the minimum pricing law of Scotland is the way to go when regulating alcohol. When I was living there, the system seemed to work well and incentivised buying higher quality drinks as well. I guess the problem is populist politicians who could easily brand it as limiting poor people's drinking, instead of posh ones.

kelnos 6y ago
The thing that's odd to me about only allowing sales from government-run shops is that it's entirely unnecessary. There's no material difference between a government-run shop and the type of privately-run specialist shop you mention. The government can still require that specialist shop to have the same restricted hours that a government-run shop might have. I live in a state where restrictions on alcohol sales are pretty limited; grocery stores and corner/convenience stores, for example, can sell whatever they want alcohol-wise. Many stores will keep the more expensive stuff in locked cabinets as a shoplifting-prevention measure. I don't think it'd be too crazy to require that all hard liquors be kept that way, and then sales there can even be restricted by time of day if that was desirable. Beer and wine could be left as-is, with no restrictions. (On the downside, this would hurt smaller shops that aren't specifically liquor stores; locked cabinets are an added expense and take up more space.)
- IshKebab 6y ago
  Yeah there are already supermarkets that aren't allowed to sell alcohol outside certain hours. I don't know why you need an entire chain of government run shops for that.
- xyzzy123 6y ago

enw 6y ago

What about: drugs are fun?

sgt101 6y ago
the big subtext is : "that's fun, it must be stopped".
thrower123 6y ago
Beer is proof that god loves us
whateveracct 6y ago
HN is, for the most part, straight edge as can be about drugs. The only time weed or other drugs are mentioned favorably is when they have some "objective value." Prevailing opinion of HN comments seems to be getting a lil stupid for fun is Bad.
- minimuffins 6y ago
  I don't know, I have seen a lot of pro LSD and psilocybin mushroom micro-dosing posts and comments. I think this place still has a generally libertarian ethos and most people think of drugs questions as best sorted out by a rational market. (My own take is different from that, fwiw). > Prevailing opinion of HN comments seems to be getting a lil stupid for fun is Bad. That part might be true. I think there's a tendency to be a little robotic/scientistic/productivist about...just about every topic.
  - pcthrowaway 6y ago
    > The only time weed or other drugs are mentioned favorably is when they have some "objective value." > I don't know, I have seen a lot of pro LSD and psilocybin mushroom micro-dosing posts and comments These ideas are very much in line with each other. The pro-psychedelic comments very often talk about the "objective" value (studies on mental health benefits and comparative safety) rather than only the subjective experience or ethics of criminalization. Personally I want all drugs legalized on ethics/freedom principles, but especially with Psilocybin, MDMA, and Ketamine there seems to be a mounting wealth of evidence suggesting these things are miracle drugs in many respects.

rcpt 6y ago

For anyone unfamiliar David Nutt is the drug researcher responsible for this informative chart https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Development_of_a_rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_of_potential_misuse_(physical_harm_and_dependence,_NA_free_means).svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Development_of_a_ration... He was chairman of the UKs Advisory Council on Misuse of Drugs for seven years until his dismissal for advocating that that illicit drugs should be classified according to the actual evidence of the harm they cause. In Nutts ranking, alcohol and tobacco were more harmful than LSD, ecstasy or cannabis and should thus be subject to stricter regulations.

S_A_P 6y ago
Its kind of interesting to see which substances people wont give up vs what is seen as a 'menace to society'. Plotted on a graph I suspect we would see Alcohol and Opiates closer together than many other drugs. On the other hand, drinking alcohol is human tradition dating back thousands of years- how do you unwind this? Do we really want to regulate alcohol more strictly? The last time the US tried that it backfired as bad or worse as the war on drugs.
- rcpt 6y ago
  Opium goes back thousands of years to. Honestly I don't know how it came to be demonized.
root_axis 6y ago
Seems somewhat oversimplified. It's much easier to "overdose" on LSD or MDMA than tobacco or alcohol. Additionally, frequent use of LSD and MDMA have pretty severe health consequences much sooner than frequent use of tobacco or alcohol. I'd also add that LSD poses a similar driving hazard to alcohol. On the other hand, tobacco and alcohol don't have any therapeutic qualities unlike MDMA and LSD. Personally. I think alcohol's harm is amplified by its prevalence throughout society, if one could buy MDMA and LSD at every shop and venue it'd be a disaster on par or worse than alcohol. edit: adding some sources https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0007091217350845 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000709121... https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medicine/article/paradoxical-psychological-effects-of-lysergic-acid-diethylamide-lsd/FA7A234B809A951253AF5C29AC79CA4A https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medici...

k__ 6y ago

I didn't drink, since the pandemic hit and feel rather good. For me most bad habits come down to peer pressure or boredom. I drink socially and people often gift me drinks in the club. Sometimes the parties are boring and I drink a bit so I stop caring. That all went away with Corona.

kasperni 6y ago

David Nutt (the author of the book that was reviwed) is a professor at Imperial College London. He was famously fired as the UK government's chief drug adviser for saying that alcohol and tobacco are more harmful than many recreational drugs. I've seen his harm score chart quite a few times here on HN [1] [1] https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/06/25/what-is-the-most-dangerous-drug https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/06/25/what-is-...

quasarj 6y ago
lol but there is not now, nor has there ever been, any question that alcohol and tobacco are more harmful than other recreational drugs...
- minimuffins 6y ago
  Yeah but you'll notice having the facts and convincing everybody of the facts against the grain of industrial propaganda is not a trivial task.
sideshowb 6y ago
He's also, iirc, working on getting a healthier, synthetic, reversible alternative to alcohol approved in legislation. But I'm not holding my breath
- LeoPanthera 6y ago
  If they don't call it synthehol I will be very disappointed.
- emsy 6y ago
  It already exists: GHB. The problem is the drug’s reputation and the problem with dosage, which could be alleviated when legalized. It’s also addictive but then again, so is alcohol but alcohol wrecks your health.
  - Tenoke 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

hintymad 6y ago

A friend of mine once told me that he was fortunate to have Asian flush. ADH2 deficiency makes him unable to enjoy alcohol, so he would never get alcohol addiction either.

CoastalCoder 6y ago
To me, alcohol tastes like what I imagine turpentine tastes like (based on turpentine's scent). It makes me less fun at parties, but I can only imagine how much trouble I've avoided because of this.
- orangecat 6y ago
  Same here. It might be genetic: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alcohol-taste-genes/genes-influence-taste-and-possibly-use-of-alcohol-idUSKCN0HL23U20140926 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alcohol-taste-genes/genes...
dragonwriter 6y ago
Addiction does not require enjoyment, and while ADH2*2 (the particular gene associated with the “Asian flush”) does reduce the risk of alcoholism, it doesn’t seem to be a guarantee against it, at all.

globular-toast 6y ago

There's a few talks by David Nutt available on YouTube and they're well worth watching. One of the most interesting things he mentions is a possible antidote for alcohol. It's theoretical but seems like it should be possible but nobody seems interested in developing it. The other thing is how the alcohol industry drive a lot of the fear and hysteria around other drugs. Loads of people die every single day as a direct result of alcohol, but the one time a girl died while using ecstasy the media went into a frenzy about it. The alcohol industry seems to me as bad as the tobacco industry. I've been teetotal for coming up to two years now. I feel better than ever. Alcohol has no positive effects. It serves only to numb the senses. I prefer to experience the world in all its glory. Luckily it's very easy to be teetotal now. As Nutt mentions, you do need to have a glass of drink (that isn't water) at all times in social settings, but I can get a lime soda anywhere and now have a mocktail from many places. Loads of people don't drink either for health reasons, religious or just because they don't want to. It's easy.

lanstin 6y ago
When I was a young adult, the rule for meals or other food events for the Episcopal Church in North Carolina was if you serve alcohol you must serve an equally attractive non alcoholic drink. I.E. not water/three cool beers/2 wines, but you know equal. I follow that principal myself and it seems right. It also helps people from drinking a bit then a bit too much, if they wish.

djoldman 6y ago

As has been repeated many times before, it's hard to protect people from themselves while at the same time allowing them to be independent and free. Many things people put into their bodies hurt them in the long run and sometimes the more the faster. Should we prevent them from doing it? In the US, we mostly say no. It seems to me that most Americans are ok with that.

thatcat 6y ago
In other parts of the US we mostly say Yes, except for alcohol and cigs.
sesuximo 6y ago
I think this is true. But there are some ways I think the US inadvertently creates a culture of getting drunk rather than a culture of drinking e.g. many states allow zero underage drinking (so ppl illegally do it anyway and to excess) and we make every other drug illegal (again, depends a bit by state). Maybe these restrictions do more good than harm. But they definitely do some harm.

JadoJodo 6y ago

The article's conclusions aside, I wonder how many people enjoy the taste of alcohol itself? While my personal beliefs prohibit me from imbibing in a way that would cause inebriation/dependence (and getting buzzed fits in the former), I have tried most kinds of alcohol and have never really "gotten" it. A coworker bought me my first drink on my 21st (a bottle of Jack Daniel's) and a friend made me a Jack and Coke with it. Halfway through the glass I just wanted a plain coke. Since then, I've tried a wide variety of beer, wine, rum, bourbon, etc and have only once come away from the experience with a "I didn't hate that/I'd buy that again.". The vast majority of the time I've failed to finish what I'm served (or do so out of politeness) and reflect that I'm simply "missing the point" because I'm not interested in inebriation/"buzzed". I'm sure there are those that enjoy the flavor (perhaps in the same way that I "enjoy" very spicy hot sauce), but wanted to ask.

The_rationalist 6y ago
Some alcohols are the best drinks I've ever tasted such as Caipirinha with strawberry and a lot of sugar. If only I could achieve this taste without alcohol. (note that I rarely drink so my taste is not amplified by an addiction). Unfortunately such alcohols 1) have a lot of sugar and 2) are not mainstream in my culture but this is e.g in Brazil.
d0mine 6y ago
Alcohol is a poison. You don't drink it for the taste. Certainly, not the first time you drink it.
falcor84 6y ago
I don't know if it's just the taste or some conditioned response, but having a glass of cold lager (or particularly a pilsner) at the end of a long day tastes like heaven to me, in a way that no other drink does.
zeroimpl 6y ago
I’m similar - rarely drink and dislike most alcoholic drinks - except that I have found certain flavors I like. Usually it’s sweetened wines, or cider. Also it’s often about pairing - the acidity or tartness sometimes just hits the spot. Good things to compare to are: - spicy food - stinky foods (eg cheese) - coffee All of the above are acquired tastes. I could barely eat spicy before, now I love it. Stinky cheese makes we want to vomit, but others enjoy it. I only drink decaf, yet periodically enjoy a black coffee, something which seemed absurd when I was younger. To me alcohol is just one more flavor option. I wouldn’t want it banned just because other people can’t control themselves.

thenoblesunfish 6y ago

He seems to be deliberately missing the point. Obviously drinking, especially heavily, is bad for health and plenty of other things. The question is why people still get so much benefit out of it that they keep doing it, despite the downsides. I‘d posit that social lubrication is something people want, and sadly in the UK, self-medication is something a lot of people turn to.

01100011 6y ago
Agreed. Something in us seems to require exogenous chemicals to facilitate social interaction and bonding. I don't think it necessarily has to be that way, but it is. You can't talk about getting rid of alcohol or tobacco without discussing their benefits and offering alternatives.
P9dCddDPe7j 6y ago
> The question is why people still get so much benefit out of it that they keep doing it, despite the downsides. No, this isn't even the question. It is clear that people will keep doing things that have downsides, with out any explainable benefit. This is called addiction. It isn't a new idea.
- lanstin 6y ago
  People clearly derive benefit from drinking; not the hard core alcoholics but the shy guy that likes to tell stories volubly and dance with less shame.
  - P9dCddDPe7j 6y ago
    > People clearly derive benefit from drinking; not the hard core alcoholics This part is what I was commenting about. Not your shy guy.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  So I have alcohol a few times a month when I go socially with friends and now I'm an alcoholic. Hokay then! Is that why alcohol (whiskey/vodka/rum) sits on my counter for literally months (couple of years?) before completely consumed? That definitely seems very addictive of me.

tayo42 6y ago

I was thinking the other day the world would be a better place if alcohol wasn't so prevalent and alternatives were available. Everything defaults to including some kind of alcohol, it just makes people insufferable and sleezy to be around when you're not part of the drinkers (even sometimes when you are part of them). Doesn't everyone cringe when you have a nice spot outdoors and a group shows up with a 6 pack each or a case of bud lights? Even in the last year you can look at the pandemic response, so much of the unhappiness was around the fact bars were closed. The world is ending because you can't drink? People were outraged, Its bizarre. Theres also a travel gatekeeping thing around visiting bars that is odd too. The idea where you need to go to some dive bar in a foreign place to really get the culture. The article is kind of right, cheap alcohol culture kind of just preys on people who can't help themselves. There isn't anything of substance going on when cheap alcohol is involved. I don't really drink much anymore, maybe one or two drinks,a good wine or interesting cocktail. Alcohol kind of physically hurts now. All about the dabs, psychedelics and mdma. Imagine a world where those can be a regular alternative to excessive drinking at a bar. There might still be drug abusers but atleast we would all be a little more relaxed.

nottorp 6y ago
> Even in the last year you can look at the pandemic response, so much of the unhappiness was around the fact bars were closed. The world is ending because you can't drink? People were outraged, Its bizarre. No, they were outraged because they couldn't meet their friends. If they just wanted to drink, they could have got alcohol from supermarkets.
- tayo42 6y ago
  You can see your friends without a bar too. Bars being closed was a huge thing for people. Opening bars up was more important then getting kids back to school. https://www.epi.org/blog/we-prioritized-open-bars-before-giving-resources-to-schools-how-the-u-s-coronavirus-response-has-failed-students-and-teachers/ https://www.epi.org/blog/we-prioritized-open-bars-before-giv... https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/12/03/macs-staten-island-bar-covid-cuomo/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/12/03/macs-staten... > “The people have rights!” one protester yelled, reported the Daily News. “Open the door, I’m thirsty!”

whateveracct 6y ago

Nothing wrong with getting shtupid for fun. ofc treat the it with the respect you'd treat any recreational drug.

nottorp 6y ago

If you ask me, a depressing life leads to alcohol abuse. And I say that as someone who never drinks alone; I do drink regularly with friends, and if i get wasted in a group, that's it. Societies that have a problem with alcohol abuse need to change the society.

Barrin92 6y ago

>There is enough evidence here to make a strong case against alcohol on a number of grounds (which Nutt himself does not quite do). Alcohol is a drain on economic growth, damaging our productivity and forcing us to spend money on healthcare that could be used elsewhere. The CDC estimated the cost of hangovers to the American economy as $249bn in 2010. The Institute of Alcohol Studies estimates a cost of £1.4bn a year for British productivity. And therein lies the core argument of the entire piece. Good old fashioned Anglo capitalist puritanism. Don't have fun that could be harmful or dangerous, don't have any pleasure, optimize your life for GDP and close your eyes and think of England. I seriously wonder why people who argue along these lines and apparently write an entire book on the dangers of alcohol don't just skip that part and go to the actually interesting question and ask themselves why people still drink or do any other drug, because we all know that it's dangerous and harmful etc. But drugs are also a part of our culture, of our social life, they can be a source for creativity or just for pleasure. There's another interesting little bit in the piece >"Left unaddressed is why we think that alcohol is necessary to any of those (good and often great) rituals. It’s not. I don’t see why you can’t get most of those social benefits anyway." I seriously wonder how long you have to hit people on the head with Tyler Cowen books until they actually start to believe this stuff. A ritual is a sacred, integrated activity. It's not some autistic utilitarian thing where you can rip a part out and 'get the social benefits'. You take one part out, the entire thing falls apart. But I don't think people who think like this even have any religious or aesthetic appreciation any more to understand this.

nottorp 6y ago
> Alcohol is a drain on economic growth, damaging our productivity and forcing us to spend money on healthcare that could be used elsewhere. The CDC estimated the cost of hangovers to the American economy as $249bn in 2010. The Institute of Alcohol Studies estimates a cost of £1.4bn a year for British productivity. So? You live to work? Incidentally, it's not hard to learn how to drink all night without having a hangover the next day. Look at tonics or water your wine. Easy peasy.

dabbledash 6y ago

It really feels like we’re experiencing a rebirth of puritanism. Yes, alcohol is worse for your health than no alcohol. That’s almost certainly true even for “moderate” drinkers. People do it for pleasure. A “case against alcohol” that doesn’t address this very real benefit is unlikely to have any impact, except with people who have decided that pleasure itself is suspect at best.

thatcat 6y ago
Alcohol is a neurotoxin and causes brain damage. Drink it if you want, it's no better than illegal drugs people consume for pleasure though. At least some of those aren't neurotoxic...
- xvedejas 6y ago
  It is hardly clear that low amounts of alcohol (on the order of 1 drink/day) are deleterious. The body has a true ability for homeostasis, and almost anything in excess will lead to problems. Alcohol's threshold for excess is regrettably low, for sure, but I think it's nonzero.
  - thatcat 6y ago
    There is no lower limit for alcohol being neurotoxic, which my asian engineering teachers were always careful to remind us when teaching fermentation process design. Not noticing the minor amount it causes doesn't mean it isn't slowly happening.
    - xvedejas 6y ago
      This isn't about the drinker noticing, this is about measurable physiological outcomes. Longevity, for instance, is not clearly affected by low levels of alcohol consumption. Not to question your Engineering teachers; I wasn't there and don't know the context, but there isn't a strong scientific basis behind the assertion that "there is no lower limit for alcohol being neurotoxic".

samcodes 6y ago

I think alcohol and tobacco use are primarily symptoms, not causes, of problems. They, along with depression, anxiety, ADHD, and other addictions, are strongly correlated with ACE (adverse childhood experience) score. As smoking has become taboo, other stimulants became more popular (adult ADD). I'd expect something similar if we restricted alcohol without solving the problems that lead to dependency.

golemiprague 6y ago

Maybe the title should end with "In the UK". For example, in Japan there is not much alcohol derived violence as in the UK. In the mediterrenian countries there is not so much binge drinking like in the UK. In Australia there are much stricter rules on where you can buy and consume alcohol than in the UK and still their drink patterns are more simliar to the UK than to mediterrenian countries. In Jewish Orthodox communities Alcohol is used almost solely for religious ceremonies and not too many people drink at all, although it is allowed. So each culture have different relationship with alcohol, both in terms of conumption and the effect on society, and this needs to be acknowledged.

readme 6y ago

beer is a food food is a human right therefore beer is a human right

ceilingcorner 6y ago

I have noticed that Anglo-American cultures tend to have two reactions to substances: over-indulgence and total abolition. It strikes me as a very unhealthy relationship. Places in Southern Europe like France or Italy have a much more reasonable approach to alcohol. Perhaps we should aim to emulate them and not continue teetering between being teetotalers and drunkards.

tomxor 6y ago
> I have noticed The extremes, the noisy, stereotypes and what media like to focus on get noticed. The rest of us in the 90% who just have a little bit with a meal occasionally never get noticed. So comparisons between countries and cultures has more to do with perception than statistics.
- ceilingcorner 6y ago
  I am basing my observations on firsthand experience, not media impressions.
  - tomxor 6y ago
    exactly

benlumen 6y ago

Interested in this claim that 1.6M in the UK have some level of alcohol dependence, because I’d be amazed if it’s that low.

lanstin 6y ago
I spent a year studying maths at Oxford (from North Carolina) and my God could the British students drink. At no point ever in my life could I get thru in one night what they drank night after night. And I like a good beering night with my friends as much as anyone.

kdtop3 6y ago

I find the graph that others link to [1] to be confusing at best. It seems to be tabulating *absolute harm* over all users. So if a substance has many users, it has more total harm. But then the substances are ranked in a way that seems to imply the intrinsic danger of it all by itself. Thus alcohol may cause more damage on a national level than crack cocaine. But tracking the lives of 1 user of alcohol vs 1 user of crack cocaine would show, IMHO, the cocaine use to lead to more problems. A similar analogy would be to compare the relative danger of automobiles to atomic bombs. [1] https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/06/25/what-is-the-most-dangerous-drug https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/06/25/what-is-...

stunt 6y ago

I drink moderately and I think it's a personal choice. I also think alcoholism is completely different subject. What I don't like however is all the smart product placements that push people that don't otherwise enjoy drinking into it.

anm89 6y ago

Take it from my cold drunk hands. I could try to make different arguments as to why I want to retain my right to drink. But that's the wrong strategy. The better answer is, you can't stop me. I do t owe anyone an explanation for what I put in my own body. I don't have to defend it. I do it or not because I want to or don't. And you're going to have to stop me by force if that is your goal. To defend it gives the puritans credibility. You don't owe them an explanation.

RickJWagner 6y ago

Former binge drinker here. I quit drinking about 20 years ago, don't miss it a bit.

dasKrokodil 6y ago

From the article: > Nutt has his own set of policy solutions, and I think they’d be great: [...] stop selling strong alcohol in supermarkets [...] I'm not sure whether this would really change anything. People get can and do get wasted on beer and wine just fine.