12 ms·

What worries me is that soon we won't be able to monitor this anymore because these devices won't be dependent on a customer-supplied internet connection anymor

What worries me is that soon we won't be able to monitor this anymore because these devices won't be dependent on a customer-supplied internet connection anymore. Instead, they'll all have cellular connectivity and we'll have no idea what is being sent, to whom and why. And I fear that there will be no device manufacturers in the same price range left that don't include this feature. Similar to how Smart TV's are cheaper than dumb displays of identical specs.

krageon 6y ago
> have cellular connectivity Then you'll get local shops that sell the machines painted in 2-3 layers of faraday paint (or apply some sort of cage, or solder out the antenna, etc). Or perhaps just like in the old console hardmod days everyone will know someone that can "mod" your dryer so it stops being dumb and just dries your clothes.
- llampx 6y ago
  Nice thought, but highly unlikely.
  - krageon 6y ago
    It probably depends strongly on how annoying the connection is. For most people irritation is a much stronger motivator than principles.
- posixplz 6y ago
  FYI, RF paints are poor signal attenuators, even when applied in multiple coats. There’s no RF paint product that can stop commercial cell communication across usable spectrum.
  - londons_explore 6y ago
    Yet build a house with foil backed foam insulation from Home Depot and you'll have no mobile signal indoors... So frustrating!
- KozmoNau7 6y ago
  The devices will then refuse to function of they are unable to contact the mothership. I would just snip off the antenna or remove the SIM, but if I can think of that, so can the manufacturers.
  - BayAreaEscapee 6y ago
    In the future SIMs are probably going to be some kind of signed data blob instead of a physical card. But I guess breaking off antennas will always be a thing if you have the skill set to identify it.
    - KozmoNau7 6y ago
      Luckily we only need one person with the right skill set to identify the antenna or other offending component to be removed and document it online, with pictures and instructions :-)
      - Scoundreller 6y ago
        Attach a string between here and here. Attach another string between here and here. Drill a hole where they intersect.
    - Ayesh 6y ago
      You mean esims that already exist? My sim "card" today is just an email already.
- klyrs 6y ago
  Sounds extremely boutique. There would almost certainly be a cat and mouse game where licensed retailers refuse to sell to these local shops, which would drive prices through the roof
- mindslight 6y ago
  There is very little going on in any appliance that couldn't be run by a mechanical timer of yore. If there's ever a popular movement to remove the surveillance antifeatures from modern appliances (and I sure hope there will be!), it'll be as simple as popping in a different control board. BTW does anybody know of any pointers to community projects that are making hardware for this type of thing? I've got it on my long term todo list to create a replacement board for a washer with a "bad control board", but wouldn't want to waste the effort if there are already projects doing this.
  - londons_explore 6y ago
    A generic washer control board sounds like something there would be a market for today. I could imagine a little microcontroller and say 10 relays that can control the pump, motor, valves, etc. Then you sell it together with instructions which specify how to program in which output does which function. You could sell it to people who want to "IoT" their machines for cheap, to people who have a dead control board, and people who want to customize their appliances (eg. I need a custom wash cycle for washing extra dirty clothes).
    - mindslight 6y ago
      Yeah, exactly. It's so apparent to me that I figure something like this has to exist, if I dug into it. I don't know if you'd even 10 relays. Most appliances have been cost-reduced into like two motors, a heater, and one or two actuators. Perhaps newer models with steam cleaning etc have reversed that trend. Control side, I'm thinking of an AVR + ESP32. The AVR for reliably controlling the motors with the sensors, eg if the water is full, turn the water off. True safety stuff like overheat switches obviously stays inline though. One of the more complex details is newer appliances have moved to brushless motors for efficiency. A three phase motor driver is straightforward, but figuring out what design parameters will be reasonably generic to serve the most appliances is some research. The least generic parts seem to be fitting in with the existing user-input buttons, and managing the complexity of programming many different models for non-engineer users. The kind of people that are comfortable taking apart appliances generally have less patience for programming computers.
oftenwrong 6y ago
Not long after, hobbyists and hackers will be hijacking that cellular connection.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
  CFAA violation in America, no?
  - atat7024 6y ago
    pffffffffft
  - MikeUt 6y ago
    CFAA requires you to interfere with someone else's computer. Presumably, the computer in the washing machine you bought is yours, so the manufacturer would (should..) have no standing.
    - klyrs 6y ago
      Presumably... but companies have been pushing the limits on what you can consider "yours" for a few decades now. Sure, you bought the hardware... but they might think they "own" the cellular chip because they pay for the bandwidth or something.
      - breakingcups 6y ago
        "You merely licensed the hardware"
  - tbatchelli 6y ago
    I think in California it's CCPA that not only protects personal data, but also against the non-consented collection of data by devices owned by the person or in the person's own home.
- jsiepkes 6y ago
  Telecom providers will probably provide a service for companies like LG to lock down the connection in such a way it can only access their services. Kind of like they already provide MPLS and such.
tenebrisalietum 6y ago
Cellular providers aren't giving LG a cellular modem for free, esp. 1Gbyte/day. Unless there is going to be something that causes cellular providers to give away data, it's going to be a significant cost. The only sustainable ways for this to work is: A) for the data for LG to collect to be worth what it has to pay to the providers. Aside from hopefully unlikely things like LG collecting audio and visual from hidden devices on the appliance, What the hell could anyone collect from a dryer that makes it worth it to pay for a cellular connection to your dryer? Is when and how much I use a dryer worth $30/month on a 2 year contract, for example? B) for LG to charge you a subscription to use your dryer. People won't do this dumb shit for a dryer unless the dryer is not sold to them, but rented for like $30/month--with free installation. Even then, if the monthly cost is over a certain threshold over me going down to the laundromat and putting quarters in machines there, people won't do it--last time I did laundry at laundromat recently it was $4.25 to wash and effectively $5 to fully dry and that doesn't include soap and dryer sheets. Now if you throw in a bundled detergent and fabric softener and dryer sheet subscription on top of it, and a free service if anything goes wrong ... it might work. And then ... maybe it is worth it? $55/mo for a free dryer and all-you-can-eat soap, softener, and sheets--brand of your choice. Like commercial copiers/toner--well, imagine if it was "pay per load". I mean we're probably going down the road of--in a few years or a deacde--manufacturers being so cheap and the middle-class-eviscerated consumers being so disempowered and poor that it ends up being you have to replace the dryer every 2 years anyway.
- jcrawfordor 6y ago
  Low-usage data-only cellular service, obtained in bulk, is becoming very cheap. I have one device in my home now that use cellular service paid by the manufacturer to report back telemetry. It could have easily been WiFi, but they seem to have found the somewhat higher cost of cellular is worth it to avoid the setup complexity.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Suddenly homebrew Stingray cell tower devices seem reasonable, with only enough power to force IoT devices to sink their connections with them into a blackhole instead of your closest tower.
occz 6y ago
Time to McGyver some faraday cages, I guess.
coldtea 6y ago
>Instead, they'll all have cellular connectivity and we'll have no idea what is being sent, to whom and why. Don't worry, the rich will still be able to build faraday cage homes...

krageon 6y ago

> have cellular connectivity Then you'll get local shops that sell the machines painted in 2-3 layers of faraday paint (or apply some sort of cage, or solder out the antenna, etc). Or perhaps just like in the old console hardmod days everyone will know someone that can "mod" your dryer so it stops being dumb and just dries your clothes.

llampx 6y ago
Nice thought, but highly unlikely.
- krageon 6y ago
  It probably depends strongly on how annoying the connection is. For most people irritation is a much stronger motivator than principles.
posixplz 6y ago
FYI, RF paints are poor signal attenuators, even when applied in multiple coats. There’s no RF paint product that can stop commercial cell communication across usable spectrum.
- londons_explore 6y ago
  Yet build a house with foil backed foam insulation from Home Depot and you'll have no mobile signal indoors... So frustrating!
KozmoNau7 6y ago
The devices will then refuse to function of they are unable to contact the mothership. I would just snip off the antenna or remove the SIM, but if I can think of that, so can the manufacturers.
- BayAreaEscapee 6y ago
  In the future SIMs are probably going to be some kind of signed data blob instead of a physical card. But I guess breaking off antennas will always be a thing if you have the skill set to identify it.
  - KozmoNau7 6y ago
    Luckily we only need one person with the right skill set to identify the antenna or other offending component to be removed and document it online, with pictures and instructions :-)
    - Scoundreller 6y ago
      Attach a string between here and here. Attach another string between here and here. Drill a hole where they intersect.
  - Ayesh 6y ago
    You mean esims that already exist? My sim "card" today is just an email already.
klyrs 6y ago
Sounds extremely boutique. There would almost certainly be a cat and mouse game where licensed retailers refuse to sell to these local shops, which would drive prices through the roof
mindslight 6y ago
There is very little going on in any appliance that couldn't be run by a mechanical timer of yore. If there's ever a popular movement to remove the surveillance antifeatures from modern appliances (and I sure hope there will be!), it'll be as simple as popping in a different control board. BTW does anybody know of any pointers to community projects that are making hardware for this type of thing? I've got it on my long term todo list to create a replacement board for a washer with a "bad control board", but wouldn't want to waste the effort if there are already projects doing this.
- londons_explore 6y ago
  A generic washer control board sounds like something there would be a market for today. I could imagine a little microcontroller and say 10 relays that can control the pump, motor, valves, etc. Then you sell it together with instructions which specify how to program in which output does which function. You could sell it to people who want to "IoT" their machines for cheap, to people who have a dead control board, and people who want to customize their appliances (eg. I need a custom wash cycle for washing extra dirty clothes).
  - mindslight 6y ago
    Yeah, exactly. It's so apparent to me that I figure something like this has to exist, if I dug into it. I don't know if you'd even 10 relays. Most appliances have been cost-reduced into like two motors, a heater, and one or two actuators. Perhaps newer models with steam cleaning etc have reversed that trend. Control side, I'm thinking of an AVR + ESP32. The AVR for reliably controlling the motors with the sensors, eg if the water is full, turn the water off. True safety stuff like overheat switches obviously stays inline though. One of the more complex details is newer appliances have moved to brushless motors for efficiency. A three phase motor driver is straightforward, but figuring out what design parameters will be reasonably generic to serve the most appliances is some research. The least generic parts seem to be fitting in with the existing user-input buttons, and managing the complexity of programming many different models for non-engineer users. The kind of people that are comfortable taking apart appliances generally have less patience for programming computers.

oftenwrong 6y ago

Not long after, hobbyists and hackers will be hijacking that cellular connection.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
CFAA violation in America, no?
- atat7024 6y ago
  pffffffffft
- MikeUt 6y ago
  CFAA requires you to interfere with someone else's computer. Presumably, the computer in the washing machine you bought is yours, so the manufacturer would (should..) have no standing.
  - klyrs 6y ago
    Presumably... but companies have been pushing the limits on what you can consider "yours" for a few decades now. Sure, you bought the hardware... but they might think they "own" the cellular chip because they pay for the bandwidth or something.
    - breakingcups 6y ago
      "You merely licensed the hardware"
- tbatchelli 6y ago
  I think in California it's CCPA that not only protects personal data, but also against the non-consented collection of data by devices owned by the person or in the person's own home.
jsiepkes 6y ago
Telecom providers will probably provide a service for companies like LG to lock down the connection in such a way it can only access their services. Kind of like they already provide MPLS and such.

tenebrisalietum 6y ago

Cellular providers aren't giving LG a cellular modem for free, esp. 1Gbyte/day. Unless there is going to be something that causes cellular providers to give away data, it's going to be a significant cost. The only sustainable ways for this to work is: A) for the data for LG to collect to be worth what it has to pay to the providers. Aside from hopefully unlikely things like LG collecting audio and visual from hidden devices on the appliance, What the hell could anyone collect from a dryer that makes it worth it to pay for a cellular connection to your dryer? Is when and how much I use a dryer worth $30/month on a 2 year contract, for example? B) for LG to charge you a subscription to use your dryer. People won't do this dumb shit for a dryer unless the dryer is not sold to them, but rented for like $30/month--with free installation. Even then, if the monthly cost is over a certain threshold over me going down to the laundromat and putting quarters in machines there, people won't do it--last time I did laundry at laundromat recently it was $4.25 to wash and effectively $5 to fully dry and that doesn't include soap and dryer sheets. Now if you throw in a bundled detergent and fabric softener and dryer sheet subscription on top of it, and a free service if anything goes wrong ... it might work. And then ... maybe it is worth it? $55/mo for a free dryer and all-you-can-eat soap, softener, and sheets--brand of your choice. Like commercial copiers/toner--well, imagine if it was "pay per load". I mean we're probably going down the road of--in a few years or a deacde--manufacturers being so cheap and the middle-class-eviscerated consumers being so disempowered and poor that it ends up being you have to replace the dryer every 2 years anyway.

jcrawfordor 6y ago
Low-usage data-only cellular service, obtained in bulk, is becoming very cheap. I have one device in my home now that use cellular service paid by the manufacturer to report back telemetry. It could have easily been WiFi, but they seem to have found the somewhat higher cost of cellular is worth it to avoid the setup complexity.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Suddenly homebrew Stingray cell tower devices seem reasonable, with only enough power to force IoT devices to sink their connections with them into a blackhole instead of your closest tower.

occz 6y ago

Time to McGyver some faraday cages, I guess.

coldtea 6y ago

>Instead, they'll all have cellular connectivity and we'll have no idea what is being sent, to whom and why. Don't worry, the rich will still be able to build faraday cage homes...