44 ms·
Monkey MindPong
- imranq 6y agoAn engineering feat, definitely. However there are so many ways this technology can be abused.
- mlindner 6y agoWell right now the technology is unidirectional.
- 2bitencryption 6y agoI don't understand how you can gather such a targeted signal by sticking wires in just a few places. Like, you can't just tape a metal coat hanger to an iPhone and start getting text messages through it. But somehow you can put some wires just as few mm into the surface of a brain and extract fine motor signals??
- swordsmith 6y agoThe location of the electrodes aren't arbitrary. The region of implantation is likely the hand-motor cortex (which has thickness on the order of mm), the area associated with arm movements (check out somatotopy), so the signals acquired are actually targeted for the demo task. This relationship has been known in neuroscience for almost a century and has been validated in decades of brain-machine interface experiments. They are also recording from up to 1000 channels, which is probably overkill for mind pong, tbh. But you'll need that many implanted electrodes to study long term electrode biocompatibility.
- mattkrause 6y agoEven outside of primary motor/somatosensory areas, 2D cursor control is a pretty standard BMI paradigm. Not exactly “Hello, World” but maybe “ToDo List App”.
- caddemon 6y agoYeah their implant hardware is really impressive but "mind pong" is a pretty common starter project for at home EEG hacking, let alone legit BCI research. The internet is littered with examples of mind pong for the Muse like this one: https://medium.com/@nayvelt.lina/playing-ping-pong-with-my-brain-49025f044b9f https://medium.com/@nayvelt.lina/playing-ping-pong-with-my-b... Granted it moves slower than actual Atari Pong, and takes a few minutes to get the hang of controlling the paddle. But IME it isn't much harder to control the up/down of the paddle with the EEG than it is to play a game like flappy bird, and that's using a couple random scalp electrodes from a consumer device. So yeah thanks for bringing this up, because I feel some of the comments here are acting like this is much closer to "mind reading" than it actually is. Not that it isn't cool, but the overhyping kinda kills it for me lol. Is this how robotics people feel when Boston Dynamics releases a new video?
- swordsmith 6y agoI'd argue it is the "Hello, World" in any BMI lab. Assuming existing implants and electronics, and non-naive monkey, advanced undergrads should get it in a semester.
- mattkrause 6y agoThat's why I went with To Do list :-) It's not totally trivial, but a reasonably skilled person should be able to get a not-too-janky version working with a bit of effort. (Also, where are you that undergrads get to interact with monkeys?!)
- jonnycomputer 6y agoI think the source of wonder here is that neural networks are very un-CPU like, in the level of correlation between the units. I'm not sure you could probe a CPU in a similar manner and be able to recover meaningful information. A binary 101X10 are entirely different numbers depending on what X is, for example, and you woulnd't necessarily expect X to correlate with the place values elsehwere (e.g. 1st and 5th bit). Similar arguments, apply, to probing different components, such as registers or instruction memory.
- swordsmith 6y agoFunny you should compare understanding biological neural networks to a microprocessor. Check out this paper (https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1005268 https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/jo...), which systematically addresses how applying traditional neuroscience methods to analyzing a microprocessor would get you.
- jonnycomputer 6y agoI've read that paper years ago. I'm afraid I find it unimpressive. It is not so hard, really, to fail, when you fail to try. I have a computer science degree; I've built CPUs (from all the sequential and combinational circuits on up); I also work in neuroscience, and do some of the kinds of analysis this paper tries to criticize. For example, a very basic approach is design experimental tasks that have contrasting conditions, or events to be predicted. They don't do that. Even something as simple as pressing the controller left vs right vs not moving at all in donkeykong would have been more interesting. In any case, brains and traditional computer circuits work on different principles as I noted in my OP. Furthermore, there is quite a lot more redundancy in brains--and partial-redundancy is a bit of how it works; for example, if you have a population of neurons with different tuning curves, then the output in response to a stimulus can be integrated, and a likelihood distribution obtained for the actual value of a stimulus; that's just fundamentally different than how, say, a 5-stage pipelined RISC cpu works.
- ampdepolymerase 6y agoThe most interesting thing here is not the mind reading, it is the miniaturization of computing and sparse data transfer. Neuralink off-loaded the computation to the sensor, sending back aggregate data snapshots. Usually you will need massive ASIC/FPGA computation banks with a lot of messy to handle the data transfer and readout but they took a shortcut bye sending only counts of spikes that exceeds a certain threshold. There is nothing stopping you from using a cloth hangar. You just need to make sure it is impedance matched and properly sanitized for subdermal use. The signal will be much worse as a cloth hangar had gauge/diameter that is several magnitudes bigger than that of a neuron. Nothing here is particularly "novel" that it cannot be trivially replicated if you have the budget of one of the FAANGs. If you have 100million in capital, you can easily find poor neuroscience and EE PhDs who will be willing to work for you for <80K a year just for the opportunity to build something like this. The reason it is difficult and out of reach for smaller companies is because small amplifiers and electronic packages that can be subdermally implanted requires significant manufacturing capital as they fall under semiconductors and biomedical devices. Once the industry settle on a design expect the price to drop dramatically as the core chips and parts become commoditized.
- toomuchtodo 6y agoIs there anyway to get this signal non invasively (magnetic field detection or photonically)? Or are implanted electrodes table stakes for a neural interface?
- lwansbrough 6y agoNot really, that we know of. To appreciate the complexity you could read this post[0] from Wait But Why? Your brain has approximately 40,000 neurons in the space of a cubic millimeter. Each saying something completely different. It’s incomprehensible noise unless you start dividing it up like Neuralink has. They get a few thousand probes in the size of a penny, which is a far greater level of resolution than you could probably ever expect from a wireless solution. [0] https://waitbutwhy.com/2017/04/neuralink.html https://waitbutwhy.com/2017/04/neuralink.html
- mhh__ 6y agoMI5 were lifting crypto keys based on keypress acoustics in the 50s, I wouldn't be so certain. If you put the phone up an expensive enough tool you can at very least find side channels
- JanSolo 6y agoMy understanding is that neurons are like a higher-order connected mesh. A bit like many fully-connected layers in a Machine Learning model. You can't just read fine motor signals from any neuron, but given enough neurons, since they're deeply connected, you can infer a close approximation of the intended motor signals given a known output. That's why they need a lot of sampling wires in the brain; to makes sure they have enough data to make that inference. Luckily, machine-learning is very good at figuring out patterns in this sort of data. My guess is that they train an ML model using the inputs and outputs when the joystick is connected. Then they can use the trained model to just generate the output directly from the inputs when the joystick is disconnected. This will work fine for one particular monkeybrain/interface combo; however, you cannot use the same model on other monkeys. You have to train a new one each time.
- judge2020 6y ago> Like, you can't just tape a metal coat hanger to an iPhone and start getting text messages through it. You could if we didn't encrypt connections. On that note, does anyone know how to upgrade libssl across my entire nervous system?
- croddin 6y ago> On that note, does anyone know how to upgrade libssl across my entire nervous system? ‘Inception’ shows someone who tries to do something like that, but there seems to be a vulnerability.
- meowface 6y agoOr have Bluetooth disabled by default for my brain. The game examples were super fascinating, but since I was already essentially familiar with the fundamental principles and technology, it didn't quite impact me as much as the researcher pairing his iPhone with a Bluetooth transceiver in the monkey's brain. That sent weird shivers down my spine.
- babesh 6y agoThis reminds me of dropout where the neural network won’t be dependent on a specific connection. Instead, it will be statistical which will actually be a good fit for this approach. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilution_(neural_networks) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilution_(neural_networks)
- NavinF 6y ago>Like, you can't just tape a metal coat hanger to an iPhone and start getting text messages through it. You can get a 128 key out of most electronic devices in a reasonable amount of time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_attack#Known_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_attack#Known_a...
- ArtWomb 6y ago>>> Our first goal is to give people with paralysis their digital freedom back PKD's "We Can Remember It For You Wholesale" notwithstanding, "Consumer Neurotech" feels like one of those categories that even the most visionary of sci-fi writers failed to build into all aspects of human existence in the future ;)
- moh_maya 6y agoIan Banks / Culture Series and the neural lace.. [1] [1] https://www.economist.com/1843/2017/03/31/the-novelist-who-inspired-elon-musk https://www.economist.com/1843/2017/03/31/the-novelist-who-i...
- mlindner 6y agoReally amazing demo. The moment that they just unplug the controller is impressive.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- sdwr 6y agoThis is honest-to-god magic. Some cyberpunk, neuromancer, hardcore reality-bending shit. The brain is the final frontier, if technology gets a foothold in there things are going to get WILD. Also, as this stuff gets further along, there's going to be large incentives for unethical testing. Rockets can be tested with unmanned flights, but you can't really dry run brain implants.
- lwansbrough 6y agoWell, that’s what animals are for honestly. They didn’t volunteer but we’ve deemed it “humane” nonetheless for our own moral comfort.
- anonytrary 6y agoThis isn't even the start of it. Everything in this video could be done with a non-invasive EEG, and has been possible for decades. This is a teaser video. The real magic of Neuralink has not been witnessed yet.
- cloudking 6y agoAre you thinking bootleg neuralinks from the local ripper doc?
- alexslobodnik 6y agoIt looked like the dexterity of the mind was quicker than the dexterity of the hand.
- The_rationalist 6y agoMind cursors seems amazing but I believe it must be very quickly exhausting hence preventing useful adoption for the mainstream.
- cloudking 6y agoNo brain signal to hand latency
- subw00f 6y agoThat's just replaced with brain signal to chip then "decoder" then game software, which I would think is greater than nerve conduction velocity[1]. But then again, there's no "latency" of hand movement + joystick signal -> game software, so maybe it evens out? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerve_conduction_velocity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerve_conduction_velocity
- bubuanabelas 6y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPbtR4vorgY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPbtR4vorgY Two years ago without a brain implant.
- addy34 6y agoSimilarly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMXfyZc_Gvg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMXfyZc_Gvg
- anonytrary 6y agoThis has been possible for decades without an implant. The problem is that without an implant, only this is possible. Anything significantly more complex than moving a cursor on a screen is just not possible or feasible without an implant, because of physical (electromagnetic) limitations.
- echelon 6y agoOur brain interface tech is so primitive, but it holds incredible promise if we're able to solve it. Imagine being able to virtualize consciousness, back up memories, live forever... The problem is how invasive it is, and how little reward there is initially. We have to solve the chicken and egg problem, but unfortunately cracking open the skull and sticking electrodes into the brain is not something one typically wants to do if they're conscious about their health. I hope we can gain traction with medical applications and then begin to make steady advances. It'd be neat to have fully virtual, synthetic senses before we die.
- tachyonbeam 6y agoDigitizing consciousness is a much harder problem, because we don't really understand how much of the brain works, the areas involved with conscious thought in particular, and the exact learning mechanisms the brain employs. The way we do deep learning these days is a very rough approximation of how the brain might work, and backpropagation is not really biologically plausible. So IMO, digitized consciousness is probably two to three orders of magnitude harder than this demo we're seeing here. Could unfortunately be a century away or more. However, the medical applications should come much sooner. What they've shown is amazing. The monkey's control of the paddle seems to be precise and fast. If people who are paralyzed and wheelchair bound just had a way to operate the wheelchair, a robot arm, and communicate with the outside world reliably, that would already be amazing. If we could somehow reconnect their nerves or give them some kind of mechanized suit, it could be even better... And if Neuralink's tech works, that could be only 10-15 years away.
- jcims 6y agoThe thing i always think about with digital consciousness is that it would just be a clone that can’t distinguish itself from the OG consciousness that’s still resident in the brain. The way this idea came to me was in a weird day dream thinking about the first experiment to attempt it... Patient lying on the table all wired up, a Dr. Frankenstein moment of ‘the upload’ followed by a screen witnessing the boot of the relocated consciousness. The doctor interacts with the persona, asking what it’s like and getting direct responses saying how amazing it is. Meanwhile, amidst the commotion and celebration, you see the ’donor’ patient wake up in a reflection on the monitor and hear them faintly ask ‘did it work?’
- daenz 6y agoAnyone else feel a strange kinship with the monkey?
- bostonsre 6y agoAbsolutely. He is one of the first few through the breach for us with this tech.
- andbberger 6y agoNeuroscientists have been doing BCI with monkeys for years. Take a look at the work coming out of Byron Yu's and Steve Chase's labs at CMU for starters
- bostonsre 6y agoI guess I just meant for this specific nerolink tech. He is definitely joined by a massive group of our distant cousins that have been involuntarily drafted into service for us. It's brutal, but so is life I guess. Hopefully this particular one doesn't mind it too much.
- purplecats 6y agoI'm convinced that this type of technology + some advancements in kinetic technology will allow for artificial telekinesis in the future. I don't know if it will be in my lifetime, but I would love to control it. It could be billed based on the energy required to translate the objects.
- avs733 6y agoWell thank god it can be billed! More seriously, I actually yearn for the days of Star Trek and where we look at how innovations like this can make people's lives better first and then just stop there. I was really excited to see the first goal they mentioned: >Our first goal is to give people with paralysis their digital freedom back: to communicate more easily via text, to follow their curiosity on the web, to express their creativity through photography and art, and, yes, to play video games. Modes of interaction in society are so poorly designed for anyone whos sensory functions are different than the norm. Bridging directly from the brain to interactions that currently require voice (normed to English Speaking White Males) or touch or movement or vision is a game changer not just for those who are paralyzed but many different groups for whom technology is not designed and is instead adapted.
- imron 6y ago> It could be billed based on the energy required to translate the objects. It could be, but it will be billed with ads inserted directly in to your brain that you can’t skip or turn off - even with your eyes closed.
- bfung 6y agoIn Soviet Russia, it (neuralink) loves to control you! Oh wait...
- vuciv1 6y agoHoly poop that was amazing
- tryonenow 6y agoThis technology is simultaneously interesting for it's potential usefulness as a brain augmenting tool, and simultaneously terrifying because of the enormous potential for abuse. Still I'd probably work on it if I had a chance, though the choice of ultimately getting it would not be without consternation. Hard to argue with the potential for a cognition-extending co-processor. And given that both the neural nets they use and the brains own neurons are capable of learning and adapting to each other, there's probably a world of potential here. This could very well be the start of the next stage in human evolution, unlocked by recent machine learning advances in particular, who's critically to this technology cannot be understated. What remains to see is how it works in (human) practice.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- anonymouse008 6y agoHere is the ultimate question.... What smoothing algorithms did they use to guess the 'certainty' of the 'intended' movement in a Y-Plane game vs. the X,Y grid they learned from? Having researched in this space, you don't get better results from 'training' on a X,Y space and reducing that training to a Y-grid predictor. There is a ton of smoothing going on in the video... or the metal conductor plays a huge role in the electrical signals they get from the implanted electrodes. I once blew up a demo because of something like this metal stick as a constant I didn't think to consider.
- anonytrary 6y ago> or the metal conductor plays a huge role in the electrical signals they get from the implanted electrodes I highly doubt that, you must be talking about non-invasive electrodes such as EEG. When the electrodes are inside the brain and thus in the cranium, they are effectively protected from outside EM activity since they're in an effective Faraday cage, so your signal has much higher fidelity.
- yurielt 6y ago>When the electrodes are inside the brain and thus in the cranium, they are effectively protected from outside EM activity since they're in an effective Faraday cage, so your signal has much higher fidelity. Pretty much this on a different and somehow related note I would still try to check if the algorithm does not just trick us into thinking that it is doing what the monkey wants it would be nice if they post some more in depth material of how the code or whatever they use looks at the end just to be sure we are not in front of a half machine clever hans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans) TO clarify: we dont have the ability to know if the monkey made an error he wont say hey I didnt want to get that one right or win that pong movement, have your milkshake back please. And we kind of need to know that in fact when doing mathematical modeling and AI having a way to quantify that is a requirement and one of the first things they teach you about.
- anonytrary 6y ago
- noisy_boy 6y agoSo we directly connect to the blood and tissue CPU and enable things not possible before like bringing mind control to paraplegics and avenues for brain ransomware. Imagine the future.
- stefanmichael 6y agoThis will change the world completely. I didn't anticipate seeing anything like this in my lifetime
- jm4 6y agoThat was difficult to watch. While the technology is impressive, it is sickening to watch. The part where they can pair the phone via bluetooth made me want to vomit. It is obviously unnatural, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Something about seeing that animal, oblivious to what's happening, and that implant with the ability to directly record thoughts and/or remote control. The whole thing doesn't sit well with me.
- mlindner 6y agoI'm confused why you'd even feel that way? Neuralink goes into a LOT of effort for animals to feel good. Animal studies happen all the time for medical testing, and from what I hear Neuralink is much better than the average. As they said in the video, the animal is doing the activity of it of it's own free will. They don't harm the animal if it refuses to participate. Are you familiar with the term "luddite"?
- gopiandcode 6y agoI initially thought GP was being overly hyperbolic, but after watching the video I can't say I fully disagree. It's not so much the animal studies aspect, but rather the fact that they used bluetooth via a mobile phone to connect to the monkey. That aspect of connecting via bluetooth from a phone is most conventionally used to interact with replaceable commodities such as wireless speakers/headphones, but here it's being used to interact with a _live_ monkey. This framing somewhat gives the impression that this living being has been reduced to the status of a replaceable commodity, a mere peripheral that one might connect to via bluetooth. I agree that given how much modern society relies on animal testing that it's not really a rational response - maybe this reaction could have been mitigated somewhat if they had connected to the monkey via a computer or more involved process rather than simply just the conventional bluetooth pairing flow on a phone.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- kbenson 6y ago
- sidcool 6y agoKudos to Neuralink engineers and doctors. We are still far away from human trials but this looks nothing short of SciFi
- swordsmith 6y agoNot far away: https://www.brown.edu/news/2021-03-31/braingate-wireless https://www.brown.edu/news/2021-03-31/braingate-wireless
- gdubs 6y agoTangent: Dating myself here, but this demo just triggered a childhood memory of the movie Project X (1987, starring Mathew Broderick). https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T0de66wOE4Y https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T0de66wOE4Y
- dlg 6y agoThis seems to be very similar to the early 2000s demos at Brown University/Cyberkinetics[1]. In 2008 they demonstrated it in humans[2] after lots of work getting FDA approval. The core difference here (from my non-expert reading) seem to be electrodes are along a thread rather than on a chip. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJJPbpHoPWo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJJPbpHoPWo for a video of the pong demo in humans. The motor cortex seems to have a clear, learnable signal though it is rather noisy sampling <1000 locations. Mary Lou Jepsen at Open Water has ideas about how to do this non-invasively [3]. [1] https://www.braingate.org/publications/ https://www.braingate.org/publications/ [2] https://www.brown.edu/Administration/News_Bureau/2006-07/06-002.html https://www.brown.edu/Administration/News_Bureau/2006-07/06-... [3] https://www.ted.com/talks/mary_lou_jepsen_how_we_can_use_light_to_see_deep_inside_our_bodies_and_brains https://www.ted.com/talks/mary_lou_jepsen_how_we_can_use_lig...
- cyrux004 6y agoCan somebody who is knowledgeable in this field of work explain how/if neuralink is better to the previous approaches and if its easier to "scale" this tech compared to previous works ?
- cblconfederate 6y agoThe article describes how it has advanced: it's wireless and reads relatively more electrodes. Producing the device is something that can probably scale up easilt . 1024 electrodes is still nowhere near enough to decode precise movements imho. These pong experiments have been done in humans since 20 years ago, but real fluidity seems very difficult to achieve , because signals are noisy, the brain adapts, distractors are always present etc. The article doesnt mention how long it takes until the device needs recalibration. OTOH brain surgery is not something easy to scale and i doubt people will accept surgery for implanting 2 devices just to play pong. Such a device should be precise enough to allow using a robotic arm effectively. I think the applications of this are going to be in research for years, not as implants that paralyzed people can readily use.
- etrautmann 6y ago
- throwaway743 6y agoAs this evolves and inevitably becomes an internet connected communication device, how will it impact the labor market?
- nexuist 6y agoData entry will probably be obliterated as you will just be able to insert rows into databases or spreadsheets in a few milliseconds rather than needing to type out entries from papers or receipts. There are already ML solutions to this but none are as perfect as a human brain that can correctly decode arbitrary formatting. Keyboards and mice will be phased out very quickly since you can just thought type, so the computer accessories industry will dry up as well. If the device allows you to write to limbs, you will probably also be able to write to motors. Expect a lot of specialized vehicle related jobs (excavators, forklifts, cranes) to become remote-first with skilled operators working inside call centers or at home. This is already happening but the presence of Neuralink means contracting companies don't have to pay for expensive joysticks, knobs, switchboards, etc. Of course this doesn't consider the impact on the entire world changing overnight, which will probably upend modern capitalism for the first time in a century.
- natosaichek 6y agoI think you're overestimating the speed at which these changes will happen. It will likely be ~a decade before the first non-paralyzed person uses this device. It'll take many more decades before they're widely available, much less widely installed.
- quilombodigital 6y ago"What better reward for a monkey, than a banana"? what about FREEDOM? I am not a vegan/whatever/animal activist, but maybe we should allow terminally-ill or death-row volunteers for this kind of experiment... With good money for the family, and I think some people would like to help mankind in the end. It is better than dying without accomplishing anything in life. So, you have at most one year with an inoperable tumor, and you will not travel because you want to be close to your family. Would you be a volunteer for this research, for 500 thousand dollars? (monkeys are cheaper, but you are the real deal)
- NavinF 6y agoYeah I'd volunteer for implant testing if I had a 6 month life expectancy due to a terminal illness. I don't think it's a good idea to allow death-row inmates to do this though; They'd likely be pressured into volunteering as the only way to delay the execution.
- quilombodigital 6y agoI did not thought about this, but at the same time, "punishment" cannot coexist with "reparation"? Money would go to victims.
- logicchains 6y agoThis sounds like the plot of a movie: death-row inmate forced to volunteer for implant testing, but he manages to connect to some kind of military robot and fights for his freedom.
- castratikron 6y agoDeath Rowbot (2022)
- lwansbrough 6y agoYou said you’re not a vegan, so to be clear your okay with factory farms crushing pigs to death but minimally invasive surgery on monkeys so they can play pong is too far? I don’t care about your stance on animal consumption particularly, but don’t you find that a little hypocritical?
- stevenringo 6y agoWhat's the pipe for?
- madsushi 6y agoBanana smoothie.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- topkeks 6y ago"Soon our monkey will be on twitch & discord haha" https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1380372826071330817 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1380372826071330817
- anonytrary 6y agoThis particular exercise could've been done with EEG. Where Neuralink excels is in having a much higher possible bitrate. Pong is the absolute POC. Neuralink will most likely be able to achieve higher differentiability and thus be able to complete tasks of higher complexity, so stay tuned for even more impressive tasks. EEG can't get past pong; it's limited by physics itself. The solution is to put the electrodes in the brain, and there is likely no other solution. Looking forward to the future.
- bckr 6y agoWhen you say "this particular exercise", are you referring to the "put the pointer in the box" exercise at the beginning? The Pong part toward the end was pretty cool. I wonder how complex of games the monkey can play :)
- anonytrary 6y agoI believe pong has less entropy than the initial task of putting the cursor into the box. Pong is a 1D game with one degree of freedom, where you are effectively moving the cursor along the Y-axis. The previous task involved moving the cursor on the XY-plane, which involves two degrees of freedom. Therefore, pong is less impressive than the previous task.
- nexuist 6y agoThis is difficult to say because pong involves moving components while the box stays still. In order to play pong the monkey must first estimate where the ball will go and then give the command to move the cursor. This indicates that Neuralink may be able to handle complex multitasking, i.e. you may be able to walk or drive and the system will still be able to decode you correctly.
- anonytrary 6y agoThat's a good point, it is nuanced for sure. My line of reasoning is that ultimately the monkey only has to control one dimension of movement of some object, so whatever complex reasoning is required to arrive at the decision to move up or down (one dimensional movement), it would still be easier for a supervised learning algorithm to learn spatial-encoding neurons over a single dimension. I think this gets deep into the difference between premeditation and action and what that means at a neural level. I would guess that Neuralink is not processing the "logical thinking" as much as it is on the neurons that dumbly encode an association with ping-pong racket location. As long as some set of neurons uniquely fire approximately when the pong moves along its degree of freedom, different electrodes will pick up different voltages, and that can be learned by an algorithm. So we don't need to know how the monkey arrived at a decision, but rather just be able to index the possible outcomes of the decision. Which is why I thought that the entropy of the decision space mattered. It's easier to learn a smaller space. I would tend to think this is a dumb pattern matching cluster (e.g. see visual encoding[0]) that's being picked up by Neuralink, and not the actual "logical decision making". Although, there may be more subtle neurons that fire in a sort of "premonition" which have learned the correlation of the racket position with the ball over time. I can link to more papers on that -- it's not just visual encoding, but rats can "plan" where they are going to go, a sort of premonition. Humans also do this. It's like an echo that happens before you yell. That's what the brain does when you plan to go to the grocery store. This is all really interesting stuff, but I'm not an expert! [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw6nBWo21Zk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw6nBWo21Zk
- lwansbrough 6y agoThe next step for Neuralink is write mode. No, not writing memories, but reprogramming motor function. If you can capture the signals of limb movement synapses for say, a paraplegic, you can read those signals and convert them into write signals in another part of the brain responsible for the actual motor function. Over time, that neuron pathway gets reinforced and could potentially teach a person how to walk again. It’s exciting stuff and I’m sure there are concerns to be addressed down the line wrt altering perception, but let’s not put the cart before the horse. That would be like worrying about impending AI drones in the 70s.
- sangnoir 6y ago> The next step for Neuralink is write mode. No, not writing memories, but reprogramming motor function. If you can capture the signals of limb movement synapses for say, a paraplegic, you can read those signals and convert them into write signals in another part of the brain responsible for the actual motor function. Over time, that neuron pathway gets reinforced and could potentially teach a person how to walk again. Or - hear me out - for a small bonus, you could volunteer for a second shift in the Amazon warehouse while you sleep. An algorithm right bits to drive your body as you shuffle unevenly from station to station in the dark (no need for lights, the computer knows where things are). They can call it the Neuralink Autopilot. Edit: would it be possible to externally trigger firing of motor neurons in someone who is brain-dead? The future might be a little Ancillary Justice-y, but with a strong "posthumous work contract" capitalist flavor to it.
- anonytrary 6y agoMIT "wrote" memories (the solution to a maze) into mice/rats using photons[0]. Neuralink in "write" mode could be engineered to do the same thing by introducing an EM current that changes over time. In the past, I've worked with "read-only", passive tetrodes, but the opposite is possible from a physics standpoint. Moving charges is just another way of saying "propagating photons". I think there's not only precedent, but there's proof that this can be done. The hard part is figuring out the biology (for a given memory, you still need to calculate the correct I(t) that actually implants it), which is a relatively unexplored domain. Neuralink is centuries away from using "write" mode to turn everyone into Neo, but much simpler use-cases can still make a huge impact within the next couple decades. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/jul/25/false-memory-implanted-mouse-brain https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/jul/25/false-memory...
- cwkoss 6y agoWhat is the metal stick the monkey puts into its mouth?
- 55555 6y agoit's a straw thru which he is drinking a banana smoothie.
- superdisk 6y agoAbsolutely horrifying. A digital interface to the human brain is the most dangerous thing to possibly exist. Thank god I was born early enough that I'll die before this technology becomes widespread. I hope.
- lifeformed 6y agoDon't worry, after you die they will insert probes into your dead brain and resurrect your mind, and you can live in hell forever!
- ycosynot 6y agoOr you can revive your whole family and friends, and enjoy heaven.. Is the glass half empty or half full?
- CynicusRex 6y agoSuper cringy banana quip. Also, as this comment suggests, it seems to be more of an advance in wireless data transfer than neuroscience: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26746553 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26746553. I hope I'm wrong, but Muskuito's misleading marketing is never far on the horizon.
- DC1350 6y agoSoon we will have physical DDOS by IoT monkey bot net. What a time to be alive
- sub7 6y agoThis is cool but I played a much more complex game with a mind reading headset at Gates (Stanford) in 2007
- 0xy 6y agoI can't wait to see this technology be immediately used for nefarious purposes by dictatorships and power drunk governments. No need to waterboard prisoners for information anymore when you can just suck data from their brains. In most judicial systems, you cannot be compelled to testify against yourself. With this technology, I really worry that that right will slip away. This feels like the precipice before dystopian hell, to me.
- the_dripper 6y agoI know I'm conforming to a stereotype by saying this, but I cant stop thinking about how this could be the premise of a Black Mirror Episode. I also think we should restrict such technology. Without restrictions we can play God, and I am in no way approving of doing anyhting similar to that. The part about pairing the monkeys NeuraLink Device "like you do with a speaker" made me laugh. Not becuase it's funny, but because it is so incredibly absurd. I dont know wether to feel good about how far technology has come, or to feel terrified about all the implications. (I can't help myself; Nietzsche once said (or wrote) "God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?")
- nexuist 6y agoA lot of people are focusing on the Bluetooth aspect of this which seems to be the most inconsequential part of it. Of course you need to connect to the brain device remotely; what do you want, a USB port on top of your head? Or should we go back to PS/2 or parallel ports and everyone can hide a 2in thick wire in their ponytail? If we want the brain to be an input device then we must treat it like an input device. That means interfacing with it with the most modern/common standards we have, which, for better or worse (mostly worse), is currently Bluetooth. Do you also think it's weird that people can put on VR headsets to alter their sight, or put in AirPods to subvert their hearing? 'Cause it is, but I think we've all normalized it to the point that it feels like something we're allowed to do. I think the same will happen with Neuralink at quite a fast pace.
- the_dripper 6y agoI wasn't saying that using Bluetooth is absurd. The Absurd part, in my opinion, is treating the brain as an "input device". Ones brain should not be tinkered with. You can not compare VR Headsets and airpods to a chip that is, literally, implanted IN your brain. - These devices generate Extrinsic Stimuli. The Neuralink however directly READS the Neuron Activity (as I understood it).
- tryonenow 6y agoImagine floating in an isolation tank and coding with your mind. It would be a euphoric state of meditative flow. Such a device can revolutionize productivity of cognitive work by removing the impedance mismatch between intent and code. Imagine if all people were natural power users. The future is blindingly bright.
- gitowiec 6y agoPoor monkey. It should belong to the forest or other natural environment it was took from. I don't get it why there are still tests run on animals. The first what technology should bring is a replacement for every animal test subject.
- MperorM 6y agowe torture and kill so many more animals to eat meat and dairy, than we do to conduct science. While I share your view, I think it's important to point out that this really isn't the best place to start if you want to reduce animal suffering.
- spurgu 6y agoPrecisely. This is on the contrary one of the least bad areas to conduct animal experiments. Humanity would be nowhere without all kinds of animal experiments and I challenge everyone who thinks it's cruel to think about how cruel it would be for humans to erase all the advances made thanks to them.
- _Microft 6y agoI cannot imagine any future in which this is not terribly abused or otherwise going wrong. People invading other people's minds, Borg-like clusters of minds outsmarting anyone who is not connected with others, forcing others to play along to stay competitive. Maybe entities that even never grew up as unaugmented, unconnected persons because they were already linked in young age - one mind with different bodies. It is absurd to try to protect humankind against a perceived existential threat by AGI by developing a technology that would also destroy humanity if it works as advertised. Add to all that the cases in which it doesn't work properly. Developing inflammation around the implants, transmitter breaking, batteries running out, losing wireless connection, ... if you think dead zones while hiking are infuriating then wait until your cognitive capabilities depend on a network connection. I am afraid that all the good that SpaceX or Tesla have achieved so far will be undone by the damage that NeuraLink's technology will do to humankind one day.
- elil17 6y agoFor those who don’t know much about this field, this seems incredible. The reality is that this a tech demo that Neuralink is using to practice the basics. For other research groups in this field, this is tech from 20 years ago. The current state of the art is humans, mostly quadriplegic people, with chips which let them control robot arms with enough accuracy to pick up small delicate objects, play games, and type by thinking words. Current state of the art implants let people get tactile feedback too - they can intuitively know the position of the arm they’re controlling and feel the amount of pressure on each finger tip. I had the pleasure of meeting a man with an implant in 2016 and the technology he was using was incredible. He could pick up a grape with his arm without crushing it and then eat it. If the arm was in another room, he could feel around with it to find objects. He described how the arm just felt like a part of his body when it’s turned on. To use SpaceX as an analogy: this isn’t a first flight. This is more like a static test fire. If Neuralink follows the SpaceX trajectory of driving down cost/increasing innovation, it results will be really out of this world. Stuff that would just sound bonkers right now.
- Zecc 6y agoNow imagine if someone could control an implant installed on a Mars probe. Stupid speed of light, making it lag so much.
- alcover 6y agoIf the arm was in another room, he could feel around with it This uncanny sentence is giving me dystopian vertigo. I picture a mob of derelicts home-invading a 130 years-old tech boomer, fighting his remote-controlled spare limbs from room to room..
- xcodevn 6y agoThe most amazing thing in this video is NOT how we can read signals from the monkey brain, but how a monkey brain can learn to generate signals to control the cursor. I think it is remarkable that a brain can learn to have such fine control of its neural activities.
- bufferout 6y agoHuman/animal ethics is a minefield of hypocrisy. Why are we mostly comfortable with performing these types of experiments on other lower-IQ species but would baulk at doing them on intellectually-handicapped children for instance? I believe our morality base for these types of decisions is mostly based on the religious traditions of humans somehow being 'special' in the scheme of things. Domestic pets also partially fall into this category.
- spurgu 6y agoOut of all animal experiments this is the one where you take a stance? Or are you tooting your moral superiority everywhere? Feel free to stop using everything stemming from animal experiments. They're more or less a necessity, at least until we can model the animal kingdom with AI. Maybe you should start trying to cope with the fact instead of fighting it.
- bufferout 6y agoI simply observed the situation as it stands. It's curious that you feel affronted by this.
- jeff_vader 6y agoI thought one of the biggest problems with brain-computer interfaces is our bodies creating scarring tissue around electrodes[1]. Have they solved that? [1]: https://www.businessinsider.com/huge-problem-with-brain-implants-causing-scarring-2015-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/huge-problem-with-brain-impl...
- itoocode 6y agoThis innovation opens up new ways of UX and human machine interaction. Just curious about the long term effects of externally controlling neuron signals.
- aryamaan 6y agoHow are the electrodes in the brain powered? Are they running out of a battery?
- MoodyMoon 6y agoI honestly think this is a pretty important part. Why isn't it talked about in the article? Can someone shine a light on this?
- natosaichek 6y agoThere is a small battery in the device, which is charged wirelessly through the skull. In the images here: https://neuralink.com/approach/ https://neuralink.com/approach/ It's the part wrapped up in gold-colored tape.
- turrini 6y agoSolves paralysis, until it turns into a subscription service /s
- rishabhd 6y agoIts projects like these that makes me wonder that what the actual heck am I doing with my life.
- abledon 6y agoWhen they 'decode' the info, are they using something akin to the Autoencoder tutorial found on the tensorflow site (ofc x1000 more complex)
- switchstance 6y agoHas anyone mentioned this footage being shot over green screen and a jungle composited in the background? Gotta love this addition to make it seem like this monkey is living the life. "Bananas and video games in its natural habitat! This monkey is living the dream."
- zerobits 6y agoI don’t think it’s a green screen, it appears to be a painted wall — you can see the seams and perspective to it.
- fireeyed 6y agoThe mindpong is mindblowing
- regitempus2 6y agoAwesome