11 ms·

> because "kids don't get sick from it" (ignoring any long-covid repercussions, which seems foolish to me) If one reads the actual studies about "long COVID" (

> because "kids don't get sick from it" (ignoring any long-covid repercussions, which seems foolish to me) If one reads the actual studies about "long COVID" (and not sensationalistic media reports that leave all the nuances out), they often emphasize that severity of post-COVID symptoms correlates quite neatly with severity of illness. Because younger people rarely have severe illness, that means the risk of long-term symptoms is very low for them. Not zero, of course, but low as with many other common illnesses for which major societal restrictions are not imposed. People might be tempted to jump in with "But my friend who got COVID...!", but please don't, this is irresponsible in a scientific context. All those people before COVID who claimed to have chronic Lyme disease, doctors tell us, likely didn't, and long-COVID self-reporting and anecdotes is the same thing.

kspacewalk2 6y ago
There doesn't really seem to be anything special about "long COVID" that isn't well-known and generalizable to viral infections at large: chronic post-viral fatigue syndrome[0]. It's a thing, it affects a small percentage of people who have viral infections, it really sucks (took me 3 months to fully get over a bad flu when I was a teen). The reason it's noticeable now is because millions of people had a novel viral infection at basically the same time, so there's also obviously gonna be a spike of post-viral fatigue too. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_fatigue_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_fatigue_syndrome
- prennert 6y ago
  A quick search on that page does not show any mention of "loss" nor "smell". While anecdotal, I do know of at one person that has lost their sense of smell and taste for now over 5 months. Even worse, any smell she can actually notice (often the faintest of smells ) is disgusting to her. Independently of what the smell actually is. That person is young and to my knowledge not in a risk group at all. In the UK, she struggles to even get someone to take it more serious than just prescribing antidepressants. I would not be surprised if many of the minority of people with long-lasting effects are unknown to the system, because either they do not search for help, or because the health system does not take them seriously. So again, one sample is not a study, but I just want to point out that overgeneralising in either direction does not help.
  - AuryGlenz 6y ago
    I had COVID in December and just last week I had my sense of taste go out for two days. There’s no way I was re-exposed. Before that my taste had recovered completely. Such an odd thing. I also had really bad Parkinson’s-like shaking a few times, but luckily that’s gone away. Post viral issues do happen with other diseases and I’m personally glad COVID’s symptoms of it are so unique. From personal experience doctors have a hard time acknowledging fatigue. This should lead to more research on the matter.
  - tass 6y ago
    Sorry to hear that, it must be very hard for her. The daily had an episode[1] about a food critic who lost her sense of smell after a COVID infection and the effort she went to in order to get it back. Her descriptions of what it was like to eat her favourite food without being able to taste made me want to wear two masks. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/23/podcasts/the-daily/coronavirus-smell-food.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/23/podcasts/the-daily/corona...
  - PeterisP 6y ago
    What would count as "get someone to take it more serious" ? She has a prolonged non-life-threatening condition with no known treatment. There's no tests to run or nothing more to diagnose, that's apparently done already. There's no drugs or procedures prescribed because, as far as I know, there are no drugs or procedures known to be effective for that. And that (looking seriously at her issue and giving a serious answer "do nothing") is a reasonable end state for diagnosis - it sucks, it's less common nowadays than it used to be, but it still happens. That's it, the next step is acceptance, not continuing to seek soomeone to "take it more serious" - and if acceptance isn't working and is causing distress that's causing further problems, then indeed the next step is psychological help or pharmaceutical help for the psychological issues. Perhaps a few years later (not sooner) there will be treatment for that issue, so when (if!) that happens, then it would be a different discussion, but until that IMHO it's dangerous to encourage people to keep looking, as it can only lead to various snake-oil charlatans who'll make false promises. If the system would deny her some test or treatment that's likely to help, then it would be justified to seek attention and have someone take the complaint seriously and do the thing that needs to be done, but it doesn't seem to be the case here. I'm sorry as this does sound like a dismissal, but if there are suggestions about what the system should do differently in this case, I'd be glad to hear, perhaps there can be a better way to go about this, but I'm all out of ideas.
- rjsw 6y ago
  I have had post-viral fatigue after flu a couple of times and now seem to have "long COVID". I agree they are probably related but the COVID version is much worse, I have been ill now for over a year with no signs of improvement.
  - yaacov 6y ago
    If possible, might be worth trying to get a Covid vaccine. For completely unknown reasons that seems to help a lot of long-haulers
    - rjsw 6y ago
      Have had the first shot, worse now than before.
ianai 6y ago
Edit-leaving discussion
- scottrogowski 6y ago
  You are failing to take into account the hygiene hypothesis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2841828/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2841828/. There is evidence that a lack of exposure to germs is a cause of autoimmune and allergic diseases. While this may-or-may-not be true of exposure to COVID amongst healthy young people, blanket statements like "It’s a disease. It’s not something your body needs to experience" could use a little more nuance.
  - jaywalk 6y ago
    I've lived my life to the fullest extent possible over the last year, seeing friends on a regular basis, going to bars/restaurants whenever they've been open and even traveling by plane. I caught COVID recently, and my symptoms were incredibly mild. I like to think that keeping my immune system healthy and exposed to all of the stuff it would normally see played a role in that.
    - plank_time 6y ago
      You are part of the 85% who have mild symptoms. Don’t think it’s anything more than statistics, the vast majority of people who get covid either are asymptomatic or get mild symptoms.
      - jaywalk 6y ago
        It's completely unscientific, which is why I said "I like to think." Not making any larger claim than a personal anecdote and thought.
      - CryptoPunk 6y ago
        I am extremely anti-lockdown, however it's worth noting that a mild case of COVID does not have mild symptoms in absolute terms. It's not like a mild cold for example. It's mild relative to moderate or severe cases, which involve breathing problems and hospitalization.
Daho0n 6y ago
To define "rarely" here are the official numbers from Denmark that I just posted in the comment above: "...hospitalisation rate of 0-9 year olds are 181 out of 17004 confirmed cases and 10-19 yo 180 out of 36065 confirmed. 23% of those had an underlying disease." Edit: The intensive care numbers are 11 and 15 for the two groups with 4 and 3 with an underlying disease.
NicoJuicy 6y ago
Very low is not what I consider knowing 3, ~35 years old, people that were hard hit with Covid. It's 50% of the people i know that catched it. That's too big of a % in my personal sphere to not consider any chance of "very low" Edit: perhaps read his comment again. His conclusion is not definitive, it's his opinion based on some not linked sources: > that means the risk of long-term symptoms is very low for them. NHS mentions the following on long covid after actual research : https://www.nihr.ac.uk/news/nihr-publishes-second-themed-review-on-long-covid/27232 https://www.nihr.ac.uk/news/nihr-publishes-second-themed-rev... > For those admitted to hospital, between 50-89% had at least one enduring symptom after two months. Of those not admitted to hospital, 20-30% experience at least one enduring symptom around one. By all common sense. That is not a "very low" risk for long covid.
- ascar 6y ago
  That's exactly the irresponsible and useless anecdotal evidence the comment you replied to mentioned.
  - unethical_ban 6y ago
    Anecdotes are not substitutes for science, but the OP didn't post any science. They didn't want to hear anything that could contradict their unfounded claim, but didn't use any actual data themselves. Anecdotes are not useless, though they can be misleading. There are always exceptions to rules/trends.
    - ascar 6y ago
      Yes OP didn't provide hard numbers or citations, but countering a broad statistical claim with small scale empirical evidence is always besides the point. It tries to weaken the original claim without actually contradicting it at all. OP didn't try to refrain people from providing opposing views or evidence that actually contradict his statements, he just asked to avoid that common fallacy.
      - NicoJuicy 6y ago
rcpt 6y ago
Correlated with severity doesn't mean similar prevalence. Yes people in the ICU get long term effects more than anyone else but that doesn't mean that long covid is as rare as landing in the ICU. The estimates I see are over 10% across age groups do not fully recover.
jariel 6y ago
The assertion that 'it spreads among teens who don't get long-COVID' is 'unscientific' on the obvious basis that they become major vectors of spread and infect other people who will get it, some will die. This: 'All those people before COVID who claimed to have chronic Lyme disease, doctors tell us, likely didn't, and long-COVID self-reporting and anecdotes is the same thing. ' Is a little bit of a wild claim ('they're all lying!') and unsubstantiated.
- kaczordon 6y ago
  What? The majority of people experience no symptoms. Schools(children up to 15/16) are not vectors for disease this is well known now thanks to Sweden’s common sense policies. Comparison between Finland and Sweden: https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/contentassets/c1b78bffbfde4a7899eb0d8ffdb57b09/covid-19-school-aged-children.pdf https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/contentassets/c1b78bffbf...
  - newacct583 6y ago
    This is misstating the science. Pre-teen school environments have not been documented as being centers of superspreader events, owing to lots of factors (including better adherence in school environments to other mitigation strategies like mask wearing and distancing; schools are better organized and MUCH more rule-compliant than society at large!). It is not true that kids don't get covid. It is not true that kids don't spread covid.
    - kaczordon 6y ago
      Again, what?? Schools in Sweden had no special restrictions other than washing hands and desks and making sure to have recess outside. 16 is not pre-teen either. Check out this article that shows students hugging and socializing during the pandemic: https://www.thelocal.se/20201210/how-does-a-swedish-school-deal-with-the-pandemic/ https://www.thelocal.se/20201210/how-does-a-swedish-school-d... Also you didn’t read the report: “Closing of schools had no measurable effect on the number of cases of covid- 19 among children”. They are not major vectors of transmission for COVID.
NicoJuicy 6y ago
Here's actual research on long Covid: https://www.nihr.ac.uk/news/nihr-publishes-second-themed-review-on-long-covid/27232 https://www.nihr.ac.uk/news/nihr-publishes-second-themed-rev... > For those admitted to hospital, between 50-89% had at least one enduring symptom after two months. Of those not admitted to hospital, 20-30% experience at least one enduring symptom around one month later and at least 10% three months later; > Long Covid appears to be more prevalent in women and in young people (including children) than might have been expected from acute Covid19 mortality; That's not "very low" and you shouldn't insert your own conclusions on unnamed resources.
- Izkata 6y ago
  Key phrase "For those admitted to hospital". It is very low compared to all infections.
  - throw_nico 6y ago
    Key phrase, since we're talking about long Covid: > Of those not admitted to hospital, 20-30% experience at least one enduring symptom around one month later and at least 10% three months later; Still, not "very low"...
  - vkou 6y ago
    A friend of mine never went to a hospital. It's been four months, and he still can't smell anything. He's 25. People who haven't been hospitalized aren't likely to end up in these statistics, regardless of whether they have long-term problems or not. It's harder to study them.
kaczordon 6y ago
This is correct. All the scare studies coming out had no denominator of number of people infected and only used the numerator of severe cases. There’s a reason long COVID is bogus and no studies have come out on it. It doesn’t exist. Perhaps these lockdowns have caused depression/anxiety and thus symptoms like fatigue and headaches... *Even flu can cause scary effects like temporary paralysis in children
- InitialLastName 6y ago
  I had Covid ~a year ago and have had a dramatically reduced sense of smell ever since. It might not be directly life-threatening (I would like to be able to smell smoke again, though), but blowing off peoples' reports of issues that severely reduce their quality of life is toxic.

kspacewalk2 6y ago

There doesn't really seem to be anything special about "long COVID" that isn't well-known and generalizable to viral infections at large: chronic post-viral fatigue syndrome[0]. It's a thing, it affects a small percentage of people who have viral infections, it really sucks (took me 3 months to fully get over a bad flu when I was a teen). The reason it's noticeable now is because millions of people had a novel viral infection at basically the same time, so there's also obviously gonna be a spike of post-viral fatigue too. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_fatigue_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_fatigue_syndrome

prennert 6y ago
A quick search on that page does not show any mention of "loss" nor "smell". While anecdotal, I do know of at one person that has lost their sense of smell and taste for now over 5 months. Even worse, any smell she can actually notice (often the faintest of smells ) is disgusting to her. Independently of what the smell actually is. That person is young and to my knowledge not in a risk group at all. In the UK, she struggles to even get someone to take it more serious than just prescribing antidepressants. I would not be surprised if many of the minority of people with long-lasting effects are unknown to the system, because either they do not search for help, or because the health system does not take them seriously. So again, one sample is not a study, but I just want to point out that overgeneralising in either direction does not help.
- AuryGlenz 6y ago
  I had COVID in December and just last week I had my sense of taste go out for two days. There’s no way I was re-exposed. Before that my taste had recovered completely. Such an odd thing. I also had really bad Parkinson’s-like shaking a few times, but luckily that’s gone away. Post viral issues do happen with other diseases and I’m personally glad COVID’s symptoms of it are so unique. From personal experience doctors have a hard time acknowledging fatigue. This should lead to more research on the matter.
- tass 6y ago
  Sorry to hear that, it must be very hard for her. The daily had an episode[1] about a food critic who lost her sense of smell after a COVID infection and the effort she went to in order to get it back. Her descriptions of what it was like to eat her favourite food without being able to taste made me want to wear two masks. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/23/podcasts/the-daily/coronavirus-smell-food.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/23/podcasts/the-daily/corona...
- PeterisP 6y ago
  What would count as "get someone to take it more serious" ? She has a prolonged non-life-threatening condition with no known treatment. There's no tests to run or nothing more to diagnose, that's apparently done already. There's no drugs or procedures prescribed because, as far as I know, there are no drugs or procedures known to be effective for that. And that (looking seriously at her issue and giving a serious answer "do nothing") is a reasonable end state for diagnosis - it sucks, it's less common nowadays than it used to be, but it still happens. That's it, the next step is acceptance, not continuing to seek soomeone to "take it more serious" - and if acceptance isn't working and is causing distress that's causing further problems, then indeed the next step is psychological help or pharmaceutical help for the psychological issues. Perhaps a few years later (not sooner) there will be treatment for that issue, so when (if!) that happens, then it would be a different discussion, but until that IMHO it's dangerous to encourage people to keep looking, as it can only lead to various snake-oil charlatans who'll make false promises. If the system would deny her some test or treatment that's likely to help, then it would be justified to seek attention and have someone take the complaint seriously and do the thing that needs to be done, but it doesn't seem to be the case here. I'm sorry as this does sound like a dismissal, but if there are suggestions about what the system should do differently in this case, I'd be glad to hear, perhaps there can be a better way to go about this, but I'm all out of ideas.
rjsw 6y ago
I have had post-viral fatigue after flu a couple of times and now seem to have "long COVID". I agree they are probably related but the COVID version is much worse, I have been ill now for over a year with no signs of improvement.
- yaacov 6y ago
  If possible, might be worth trying to get a Covid vaccine. For completely unknown reasons that seems to help a lot of long-haulers
  - rjsw 6y ago
    Have had the first shot, worse now than before.

ianai 6y ago

Edit-leaving discussion

scottrogowski 6y ago
You are failing to take into account the hygiene hypothesis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2841828/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2841828/. There is evidence that a lack of exposure to germs is a cause of autoimmune and allergic diseases. While this may-or-may-not be true of exposure to COVID amongst healthy young people, blanket statements like "It’s a disease. It’s not something your body needs to experience" could use a little more nuance.
- jaywalk 6y ago
  I've lived my life to the fullest extent possible over the last year, seeing friends on a regular basis, going to bars/restaurants whenever they've been open and even traveling by plane. I caught COVID recently, and my symptoms were incredibly mild. I like to think that keeping my immune system healthy and exposed to all of the stuff it would normally see played a role in that.
  - plank_time 6y ago
    You are part of the 85% who have mild symptoms. Don’t think it’s anything more than statistics, the vast majority of people who get covid either are asymptomatic or get mild symptoms.
    - jaywalk 6y ago
      It's completely unscientific, which is why I said "I like to think." Not making any larger claim than a personal anecdote and thought.
    - CryptoPunk 6y ago
      I am extremely anti-lockdown, however it's worth noting that a mild case of COVID does not have mild symptoms in absolute terms. It's not like a mild cold for example. It's mild relative to moderate or severe cases, which involve breathing problems and hospitalization.

Daho0n 6y ago

To define "rarely" here are the official numbers from Denmark that I just posted in the comment above: "...hospitalisation rate of 0-9 year olds are 181 out of 17004 confirmed cases and 10-19 yo 180 out of 36065 confirmed. 23% of those had an underlying disease." Edit: The intensive care numbers are 11 and 15 for the two groups with 4 and 3 with an underlying disease.

NicoJuicy 6y ago

Very low is not what I consider knowing 3, ~35 years old, people that were hard hit with Covid. It's 50% of the people i know that catched it. That's too big of a % in my personal sphere to not consider any chance of "very low" Edit: perhaps read his comment again. His conclusion is not definitive, it's his opinion based on some not linked sources: > that means the risk of long-term symptoms is very low for them. NHS mentions the following on long covid after actual research : https://www.nihr.ac.uk/news/nihr-publishes-second-themed-review-on-long-covid/27232 https://www.nihr.ac.uk/news/nihr-publishes-second-themed-rev... > For those admitted to hospital, between 50-89% had at least one enduring symptom after two months. Of those not admitted to hospital, 20-30% experience at least one enduring symptom around one. By all common sense. That is not a "very low" risk for long covid.

ascar 6y ago
That's exactly the irresponsible and useless anecdotal evidence the comment you replied to mentioned.
- unethical_ban 6y ago
  Anecdotes are not substitutes for science, but the OP didn't post any science. They didn't want to hear anything that could contradict their unfounded claim, but didn't use any actual data themselves. Anecdotes are not useless, though they can be misleading. There are always exceptions to rules/trends.
  - ascar 6y ago
    Yes OP didn't provide hard numbers or citations, but countering a broad statistical claim with small scale empirical evidence is always besides the point. It tries to weaken the original claim without actually contradicting it at all. OP didn't try to refrain people from providing opposing views or evidence that actually contradict his statements, he just asked to avoid that common fallacy.
    - NicoJuicy 6y ago

rcpt 6y ago

Correlated with severity doesn't mean similar prevalence. Yes people in the ICU get long term effects more than anyone else but that doesn't mean that long covid is as rare as landing in the ICU. The estimates I see are over 10% across age groups do not fully recover.

jariel 6y ago

The assertion that 'it spreads among teens who don't get long-COVID' is 'unscientific' on the obvious basis that they become major vectors of spread and infect other people who will get it, some will die. This: 'All those people before COVID who claimed to have chronic Lyme disease, doctors tell us, likely didn't, and long-COVID self-reporting and anecdotes is the same thing. ' Is a little bit of a wild claim ('they're all lying!') and unsubstantiated.

kaczordon 6y ago
What? The majority of people experience no symptoms. Schools(children up to 15/16) are not vectors for disease this is well known now thanks to Sweden’s common sense policies. Comparison between Finland and Sweden: https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/contentassets/c1b78bffbfde4a7899eb0d8ffdb57b09/covid-19-school-aged-children.pdf https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/contentassets/c1b78bffbf...
- newacct583 6y ago
  This is misstating the science. Pre-teen school environments have not been documented as being centers of superspreader events, owing to lots of factors (including better adherence in school environments to other mitigation strategies like mask wearing and distancing; schools are better organized and MUCH more rule-compliant than society at large!). It is not true that kids don't get covid. It is not true that kids don't spread covid.
  - kaczordon 6y ago
    Again, what?? Schools in Sweden had no special restrictions other than washing hands and desks and making sure to have recess outside. 16 is not pre-teen either. Check out this article that shows students hugging and socializing during the pandemic: https://www.thelocal.se/20201210/how-does-a-swedish-school-deal-with-the-pandemic/ https://www.thelocal.se/20201210/how-does-a-swedish-school-d... Also you didn’t read the report: “Closing of schools had no measurable effect on the number of cases of covid- 19 among children”. They are not major vectors of transmission for COVID.

NicoJuicy 6y ago

Here's actual research on long Covid: https://www.nihr.ac.uk/news/nihr-publishes-second-themed-review-on-long-covid/27232 https://www.nihr.ac.uk/news/nihr-publishes-second-themed-rev... > For those admitted to hospital, between 50-89% had at least one enduring symptom after two months. Of those not admitted to hospital, 20-30% experience at least one enduring symptom around one month later and at least 10% three months later; > Long Covid appears to be more prevalent in women and in young people (including children) than might have been expected from acute Covid19 mortality; That's not "very low" and you shouldn't insert your own conclusions on unnamed resources.

Izkata 6y ago
Key phrase "For those admitted to hospital". It is very low compared to all infections.
- throw_nico 6y ago
  Key phrase, since we're talking about long Covid: > Of those not admitted to hospital, 20-30% experience at least one enduring symptom around one month later and at least 10% three months later; Still, not "very low"...
- vkou 6y ago
  A friend of mine never went to a hospital. It's been four months, and he still can't smell anything. He's 25. People who haven't been hospitalized aren't likely to end up in these statistics, regardless of whether they have long-term problems or not. It's harder to study them.

kaczordon 6y ago

This is correct. All the scare studies coming out had no denominator of number of people infected and only used the numerator of severe cases. There’s a reason long COVID is bogus and no studies have come out on it. It doesn’t exist. Perhaps these lockdowns have caused depression/anxiety and thus symptoms like fatigue and headaches... *Even flu can cause scary effects like temporary paralysis in children

InitialLastName 6y ago
I had Covid ~a year ago and have had a dramatically reduced sense of smell ever since. It might not be directly life-threatening (I would like to be able to smell smoke again, though), but blowing off peoples' reports of issues that severely reduce their quality of life is toxic.