14 ms·

After working at Google, I’ll never let myself love a job again

298 points by donmcc 6y ago

1-6 6y ago
Sometimes, I don't blame the xooglers especially when its corporate culture has done an about-face in recent years. However, this person's first job out of school was at Google so they obviously don't understand 公公私私.
deleted 6y ago
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boh 6y ago
The most surprising element of this article is that the writer was surprised at the outcome. It's 2021--who still doesn't think Google will act like any other large corporate entity? I know the general aesthetic of the Google offices gives the impression of a fun, futuristic, elementary school, but the MBA's managing Human Resources went to the same schools as the ones in every other major corporation. The principals of self-preservation are still the same. No one you work with anywhere is "family". Everyone who has the position of employee, is an expendable expense attempting to secure their fickle, fleeting position. This may be a little dramatic, but do not depend on the initiative of mercenaries. Most people are scared of everything and will avoid whatever confrontation comes out of supporting you (even when you're in the right).
- gweinberg 6y ago
  "It's 2021--who still doesn't think Google will act like any other large corporate entity?" People who think it will act worse.
- magneticnorth 6y ago
  The article mentions that she started at Google in 2015; things may have been different then. This was also her first job out of school, and I'll admit I, too, fell for the hype at my first tech job, before learning all the obvious-in-retrospect things being discussed here.
- arafalov 6y ago
  - "joined the company after college in 2015" - "In high school, I spent time homeless and in foster care, and was often ostracized for being nerdy" - "What I found was a surrogate family" Many of us got burned earlier in our career, one way or another. But coming from a truly difficult background, would have meant it was even harder for her to see behind the veil of "good company".
- jmwilson 6y ago
  It's not surprising at all. Anyone who worked at Google or Facebook during the decade or so ca. 2005-2015 is aware of the degree to which these companies presented themselves as a totally new and different workplace than the typical corporate employer. Facebook even had a little red handbook that stated on its cover, "Facebook was not originally created to be a company." With on-site banking, laundry, car-washes, dentistry, hobby/interest clubs, etc. they provide a mixed, almost collegiate environment that blended the workplace with a community. Many people who worked at these places fell in love with their jobs, the companies made it easy to. To some degree, anyone who was super cynical about this would select themselves out of the hiring pool. The writer joined out of college, and perhaps was a previous intern. Again, anyone familiar with the internship program at big tech companies knows how they aim to provide not just a mentored professional experience, but a social one including events with other interns and employees.
  - Yassire 6y ago
    In the 90s IBM began massive layoffs. They were sued in a number of successful class action suits. The plaintiffs claimed IBM had heavily advanced the We're a big family ethos, also had daycares on the campus, dry cleaners, gyms, and even had multi-generational families working there. IBM was found liable and had to make large payments to its former employees
    - chrisbolt 6y ago
      Liable for what?
      - visarga 6y ago
        having gyms, I presume
      - jdmichal 6y ago
        The only thing I've found so far is age discrimination and race discrimination lawsuits. Nothing having to do with the working environment or promises.
      - 6y ago
- adamrezich 6y ago
  it takes time and experience to overcome that naiveté, especially when you're young. I have a friend in a similar situation who is now coming to terms with the fact that jobs are jobs and don't have to be your whole life.
  - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
    I disagree, I think it just takes exposure. Learn from other people's mistakes instead of getting screwed over yourself. I'm young and realize that no matter how many sweet nothings companies whisper in your ears, at the end of the day it's a business relationship.
    - adamrezich 6y ago
      yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it's impossible to learn these lessons when you're young without direct experience. I just meant that it's not uncommon (in my experience) for young people to be extremely, unflappably enthusiastic about joining on at a large corporation, naïvely buying into the company line of BS. I can easily see myself as having been this kind of person if I got a job at a company like Google when I was young and impressionable.
    - NotPavlovsDog 6y ago
      You don't buy the bull, but consider this: why is there proven age bias in tech hiring? Same reason the military likes 'em young: it's easier to mold and manipulate fresh adults.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
  I don't understand why acting like a large corporate entity is such a bad thing. It just is. Corporations are mortal entities and fear death. The first priority is to continue to simply exist. I don't see this as bad- just the natural order.
  - hogFeast 6y ago
    Young people, I don't know if this is universal, associate bigness with badness and making money from trade with exploitation. The natural order is that some people need these companies to do something for them, that is why they exist. The utility of that system (creating things that people need) gets suffocated by our preoccupation with fairness. So people can only join these companies because they believe they are genuinely different...when no company is different because they all have the same function which largely depends on consumers, not staff.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- hogFeast 6y ago
  It isn't because of the MBAs or because of the need to cut costs or whatever. It is to do with the employees too. If you start a company saying that you are very idealistic, you attract idealistic people (and btw, most companies say this because it is what young people want to hear). But the reality of being a human is that we have a habit of believing in our own honesty/goodness, whatever the actual content of our actions. Another good example was Obama (or perhaps Blair in the UK)...this kind of euphoric self-regard happens in other non-corporate contexts. Being human is thinking that "everything has changed now" , until you get old enough to realise nothing ever changes, and then the people who are saying "everything has changed now" again think you are too old and decrepit to listen to. It is eternal (this kind of fraud is a necessary component of capital markets). The stuff around Google is, however, particularly funny. The founders rhetoric is totally empty (Larry Page appears to be someone whose only distinguishing feature is supreme and total self-confidence). They have a rapacious monopoly which, by exploiting defects in corporate governance, they use to fund a bureaucracy of pet projects/niche interests of academics. You can dress it up any way you want (I can see why academics wanted to love Google, free money with no oversight) but it is still ultimately based on poor ethics (weak corporate governance, no oversight, stealing money from shareholders). Classic SV (wanting the luxury of making tons of easy money very fast AND the moral high ground).
- perfect_wave 6y ago
  I think that all it would take for these Googlers is one week as a TVC (temp/vendor/contractor) to get a view as to how Google really looks at things.
  - nunez 6y ago
    Yes. I had friends who were TVCs and met a few while I was an FTE there. Google (and even some Googleras) treats their TVCs like dog shit. Cant even eat at the cafeterias.
- ryanobjc 6y ago
  Remember the X Files... "I want to believe". Her only "crime" was she was a greenhorn, and needed belonging and purpose. I feel truly sad for her, because while my cynical older self knows the ending what was in the cards, is it so WRONG to be hopeful, a little naive and earnest? Where were the people who were supposed to protect that? At least when you join the military and you become part of that family, everyone noncom at least believes in it. Even if the greater structure can toss you out, your brothers/sisters will attempt to come to your aid. No such luck in corporate america.
twiddling 6y ago
"When people ask me how I feel about my new position, I shrug: It’s a job." Yep, it is always just a job.
- amelius 6y ago
  Something you spend 1/2 of your waking life on is never "just" something.
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    That’s the feeling that companies seek to exploit. I like my job, my profession and the mission associated with it, and have a certain level of pride. End of the day, I have a contract and meet my side of it to the best of my ability. The company does the same, until it doesn’t. My family, my personal life is why I work. A big part of the push of a bullshit mission is to make you pause your life. People end up not having kids because they waited till they were 38 because the big “mission” taking priority.
  - wffurr 6y ago
    Yeah that's the tragedy of it.
  - BeetleB 6y ago
    > Something you spend 1/2 of your waking life on is never "just" something. Then don't spend 1/2 your waking life on it. Stick to a 40 hour work week, and don't do weekends.
    - deanmoriarty 6y ago
      Even on a 40h week that’s still 35% of waking hours without counting the time needed to prepare, commute, ... including those 50% sounds very reasonable to me?
the_arun 6y ago
Initially it is pride. Once that wears out, it is another Job which you may or may not like.
blacktriangle 6y ago
It's possible to love a job without letting that job become a part of your identity. That's what it feels like FAANG is to a lot of people, particular this one for whom Google is their first job. It's not about love or not loving, it's about a healthy sense of boundaries between you and your workplace.
- villasv 6y ago
  This is so important, but unfortunately almost everyone will need a crisis to understand. We are raised to be “something”, “make a living”. When we introduce ourselves, the profession is right there with the name. Of course, we dedicate the majority of our awake time to work, but work is *usually not* what one is proud of at the very end. To many people, work represents the majority of their identity. After dealing with so many unemployed/retired people you can really grasp the extent of their distress caused by this. My father retired years ago, but kept working as freelancer. He says he learned from his father that if/when he stops working, he’ll die sooner. This is so sad.
  - pm90 6y ago
    As human beings we do need some kind of activity that provides fulfillment. Most people spend a large part of their lives at the workspace and the only skills they excel at, which are fulfilling are work related. So it’s not too surprising that they would want more of that.
    - blacktriangle 6y ago
      Even then though, you can separate the work from the workplace. For example I absolutely identify as a programmer. Screw all this "never call yourself a programer, you're a business problem solver" advice, I LOVE programming. But that doesn't mean that the project I am currently working on or the company I work for defines me. Any given employment can be taken away from me at a moments notice for factors far outside of my control, but nobody can take away the skills and knowledge I accumulate.
arafalov 6y ago
There is a bunch of sad things in the story. But, not being FAANG engineer, there is something technical/financial in there I did not understand. Specifically: "When I didn’t get a promotion, some of my stock grants ran out and so I effectively took a big pay cut." - I think I roughly get what it means, but not specifically. Could some insider explain this?
- astuyvenberg 6y ago
  Most offers for FAANG companies include salary and stock compensation, that vests over 4 years. So if you were granted 400k in stock over 4 years, you'd get 100k per year in stock (which you can keep or sell, but it's real compensation). After those 4 years, the company will either give you another stock grant over another 4 years, or they will decide to show you the door - and not offer you anything. That's what seems to have occurred here.
  - whateveracct 6y ago
    Really? When I've worked at FAANGs and other BigCos, there was a yearly re-up of stock vesting over 4 years each time.
    - paxys 6y ago
      It is all up to management discretion. I have known several cases where people's new stock grants were cut to zero in the hope that they'll just quit and save managers from going though the PIP/firing process.
      - random5634 6y ago
        For sure. At least at amazon while they don't demote you, if they are not that excited by you on the team equity goes pretty low. https://www.lastweekinaws.com/blog/aws-compensation-explained/ https://www.lastweekinaws.com/blog/aws-compensation-explaine...
    - astuyvenberg 6y ago
annoyingnoob 6y ago
I think everyone should get fired at least once, preferably early in your career. Business is business.
- paxys 6y ago
  While firing may be a bit drastic, I do agree that getting over the standard silicon valley new grad idealism ("company is my family, we are changing the world") as early as possible is always recommended. And this applies equally to Google and a random 5-person startup.
- smsm42 6y ago
  Everyone should also learn to quit, and that quitting your job when it sucks (or just stops working for you) is a win, not a loss. It's also much better than getting fired - you control how and when it happens.
- phamilton 6y ago
  When I was fired from my first job, a friend and mentor looked at me and asked "Is this your first time getting fired?" Everything about that question helped me gain perspective. Not only did he normalize getting fired, but he implied that getting fired multiple times in a career was quite possible and pretty independent of ones actual ability. I haven't been fired since, but I have thought about it often. Definitely a good lesson to learn early.
  - microtherion 6y ago
    > "Is this your first time getting fired?" The kids have a meme for that now: https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/027/763/07B89120-B48D-45FB-AF1D-49AF6CD16790.jpeg https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/027/763/07B... The one time in my career I got laid off was the day after I got married. I had taken the day off, got back in the office the next day, and was let go. I was close to finishing my PhD at the time, and had never made a secret to my employer that I was planning to move abroad after that, but the layoff still came as a bit of a shock to me.
worker767424 6y ago
There are better stories that deserve this headline, stories where people land their dream job only to be disappointed by the role, or the company, not just one individual. Still, the position she was in sucks. You can never have a good working relationship with the harasser again, and the only outcome that would resolve the situation is the harasser getting fired, but that won't happen with only hearsay of inappropriate comments; it would need to be something egregious with witnesses. The only move is switching teams and telling HR so it (hopefully) doesn't happen again.
imbnwa 6y ago
I like how people think the import of the article is "corporations gonna corp" when its more like if you're not the right kind of male in this industry, you are vulnerable
- rmvt 6y ago
  what is the right kind of male?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - kevingadd 6y ago
    the kind that gets paid tens of millions USD by google to quietly leave for another high-paying job https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/11/18260712/google-amit-singhal-andy-rubin-payout-lawsuit-accused-sexual-harassment https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/11/18260712/google-amit-sing...
- blueline 6y ago
  seems like its both?
- sameers 6y ago
  The fact that it is both is precisely what is meant by "implicit privilege." The behavior of toxic men is considered "regular" enough that preventing it isn't considered worth the effort given the cost of "losing" those men or having to deal with a counter-lawsuit. If instead this man had a habit of dumping Koolaid over his co-workers every time they shipped a bug, let's say, he'd be fired right away. Because dumping Koolaid on people is considered "not okay." Hitting on women is considered "okay." It's not the corporation that considers these things okay or not - the corporation needs to maximize its financial interests and nothing more really. Society at large decides what's okay, and the corporation mostly lets those rules stand. Yes, there are cases where a corporation can play at the margins - for example, when corporations make a public statement about not doing business in states that pass illiberal laws. The calculation here is that their consumer base at large will reward their stance, or they have a monopoly position that makes this stance low-risk, even if they lose something in the short-term or get bad press from one end of the political spectrum. This is why we end up with laws that regular corporate behavior, like for example civil rights legislation that prohibits companies from discriminating by race. These laws passed at a time when such behavior was still considered largely "okay" in society, and the laws helped to reduce the spaces in which the okayness could sustain itself. It changed the Overton Window on this behavior you could say.
unwind 6y ago
Meta: the title has an extra "A " at the start.
PradeetPatel 6y ago
Hopefully the author also learned a valuable lesson here - HR is there to protect the interest of the company, not your friend. As someone who worked in RM(Reputation Management), my team have prevented, or mitigated a significant amount of potential reputation risk from would-be whistleblowers and dissatisfied employees. It's not a matter of friendship, but of interests.
- hemloc_io 6y ago
  "It's not a matter of friendship, but of interests" would be a great book title if you ever write one :P
  - sombremesa 6y ago
    That's a horrendous book title.
  - clumsysmurf 6y ago
    Already written "Corporate Confidential: 50 Secrets Your Company Doesn't Want You to Know---and What to Do About Them" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003K15PC4 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003K15PC4
    - nsajko 6y ago
      Interestingly, there's another book with the same title. Both are from 2005: By Dephillips: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/437452.Corporate_Confidential https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/437452.Corporate_Confide... By Shapiro: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/62085.Corporate_Confidential https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/62085.Corporate_Confiden...
    - one2three4 6y ago
      * There's no right to free speech in the workplace. * Age discrimination exists. * Why being too smart is not too smart. * Human Resources is not there to help you, but to protect the company from you That's just from the back of the book. OK. I need to read this.
tombert 6y ago
About 7 years ago, I worked at a startup that very close-knit. All the coworkers were friends with everyone, the CEO and CTO were fun to be around, so I would make a point to go to all the team outings and lunches. I really liked it there, felt that they were my "family" in some sense. About 9 months into my job, the company was hit with two lawsuits, and the leaders became very secretive and elusive and started changing rules to save money of questionable legality. For example, a rule was added to state that we had to work 40 billable hours a week. This doesn't sound that bad, but because of the lawsuits and attempts to settle them, any work done for the plaintiffs in the aforementioned lawsuits was not counted as "billable", and most of that work would eat up multiple hours of my day. This meant that in addition to the eight hours I had to work on a billable client, I would also end up spending an extra three to four hours working on non-billable stuff. This went on for multiple months, I started feeling depressed, but I put up with it because I really liked the company. Eventually, the company laid off 2/3 of the staff without any notice to any of the workers. I went from "employed" to "unemployed" overnight, and when I managed to get in touch with the CTO, he basically told me "thems the breaks. Sorry". I felt pretty betrayed, because I had spent two months working 60 hour weeks, all to be laid off because I was working on the wrong projects. After that, I made a bit of a vow to myself to remember that a job is, at its core, a business transaction. You sell your time and expertise for compensation. It's great if you really like your boss and your coworkers, that'll help avoid depression, but remember at the end of the day, a company is not your family, and if they don't think you're creating enough value for them, they will end this transaction.
- shoguning 6y ago
  I think there is a proper level of conviviality/cordiality and fun that you can bring to work without getting too personally invested. A lot of first-time employees may have trouble with this balance, but after a tough break or two you learn the ropes.
  - tombert 6y ago
    Oh definitely, I'm not saying that you should always act like a utilitarian robot, and being a nice and fun person at your workplace can help you avoid burnout. I just think that you should always remember that, at the end of the day, it's still a job. If you remember that fact, it hurts less being laid off, and it's easier to quit a job if/when it becomes toxic.
ibudiallo 6y ago
I hate it when people say a job is a job. 10 hours a day is dedicated to my job. I'm awake for 16 hours and 10 of those I spend at work. This is where my friends are. This is where I meet new people. This is where I spend my time. But the reality is... Well yes, a job is a job, and the quicker you can accept it, the better you will feel. Once, this realization came to me when I worked at a fortune 10. I loved the job and was fascinated by the cool tech we used everyday. One day I came to work only to find out I was fired. My manager was just as surprised to hear it. Obviously it was a mistake, but my team watched as security guards came to escort me out of the building like a criminal. It didn't matter that they figured out it was a mistake. My coworkers became distant when I came back. When the story blew up, my employer denied I was ever employed there. An ex-coworker later told me that my position and projects have been completely scrubbed out of existence. A job is a job, if you can focus on your own gains please do. Then spend a little bit of time on this fun Ask HN[1]. We can't all get a job that loves us back, so in the meanwhile find something you love outside the job. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26721951 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26721951
- tartoran 6y ago
  Wait, were you fired then hired back? That sounds like an emotional rollercoaster. When security came to escort your out of the building, your team, the people who you made friendships revealed the true nature of the relationship. It's just a business transaction and you should not dedicate more than you are paid for. Yes, I read the previous HN post you linked in this comment. What was your conclusion for that? I'd like to know too
  - ibudiallo 6y ago
    Yes, I was hired back. I learned my lesson, so I used this time to get all my ducks lined up and left the company in my own terms. I added a link to that thread because our most important commodity is time. Sure it sounds like promoting laziness, but lots of comments were about automating your job. You get to invest that newly found free time to do something you enjoy.
  - hiyer 6y ago
loxias 6y ago
This is fantastic (unintended?) guerilla marketing for the author's current employer.
ludditetech 6y ago
Go girl you are a wonder of human nature. You did great dont take any shit from anyone. Came from a pretty shaky background myself to success in tech but as a self employed consultant which has incredible freedom but on the surface less job security perhaps, but over the last twenty years the phone has never stopped ringing. An option for you too with your skills.
thelean12 6y ago
It's strange to me that people love to shit on FAANG life so often. Every perk is scrutinized, as if serving dinner in the office means I MUST stay for dinner (I almost never do), or having a doctor or laundry service on campus is some nefarious thing. At the end of the day, you get paid a huge amount of money to do a moderate amount of work. It's the dream, to me. And then every once in a while people burn out and make it seem like it was the free dinner that did it. "I found my own doctor; I cook my own food." What does that have to do with anything? (Sure, HR is shitty and that's something to care about. But that's an industry wide issue, not a FAANG specific issue.)
- bozzcl 6y ago
  > you get paid a huge amount of money to do a moderate amount of work AWS would like a word with you.
  - fizwhiz 6y ago
    F's in the chat for all the Amazon employees that I'm sure lurk around here.
  - thelean12 6y ago
    Alright well idk about Amazon. I've worked for a few FAANG but not Amazon. But Google, the topic of the article, is definitely a company where you can do a moderate amount of work for large amounts of money.
- doctor_eval 6y ago
  She was sexually harassed in her workplace and says that the company protected the perpetrator at her expense. Any company that does this deserves to be shat on.
  - thelean12 6y ago
    Uh, yeah, of course. I wasn't saying anything contrary to that. All I said is that people focus on the FAANG perks way too much, as if they're contributing to some problem. Even in the article, one their shining moments was when they cooked for themselves and found another doctor (??).
throwaway823882 6y ago
> When I joined the company after college Kids: all corporations suck. The bigger they are, the more likely they are to suck. Your corporation is not an exception, you're just lucky to work in a non-sucky corner of it, or have not yet glimpsed its suckitude. Ignore perks. Unless they come in the form of things you need that are expensive and rare (health care, child care, 401K match, maternity/paternity leave, continuing education fund, remote work). HR is not your friend. Executives don't care about employees. Do not tell your boss what's really on your mind. Your co-workers are not your friends. Do not expect anything of them. Do not be completely open, honest, and transparent. Do not be vulnerable. Do not compromise, and do not extend yourself. Do what you are required to do. Help when it is convenient, but do not become the "go-to" person, because it only looks like job security. Do not argue or complain. Send e-mails reiterating verbal agreements. Take screenshots of anything that looks fishy, abusive, manipulative. Keep your next job in the back of your head. Prepare for it. Make contacts, network, learn marketable skills. Develop soft skills, be friendly and outgoing, but lay low. Play nice, do not burn bridges. If someone is harassing you, intimidating you, making unreasonable demands, or otherwise disturbing you: slowly document evidence and record eye-witness testimony, first in e-mails, then in screenshots (e-mails and other documents get purged regularly to protect the company when they get sued). Find co-workers to corroborate your story and co-sign a petition with you. Find your harasser's corporate enemies and recruit them. People in your company may try to bury your complaints, either to protect The Company (again, HR is not your friend), or to further a manager/executive's political needs, or because they just don't believe you. The company may try to discredit you and will use any ammunition (that they have been silently compiling) against you. Finally, if you feel like your mental or physical well-being is at risk: Quit. Your. Job. It doesn't matter if what's happening to you is unfair or unjust. You are a very small cog, and the corporation is a very big wheel. If you decide to write a public tell-all like the author's here, it will work against you at future employers. It is not worth the fight. There is no prize to win. It's just a job.
- loopz 6y ago
  It's just a job, but we need to hold corps to higher standards too. The way I see it, all kinds of people work together. That is expected to go badly at times. So it depends how one play it, but still accept diversity of people, even assholes.
bla3 6y ago
It's common for people to identify with their job too much, independent of employer. It almost feels like it's a rite of passage to pour everything into your first job in your early to mid twenties, especially if you're a high performer with something to prove and you're lucky enough to work on something that "really matters". What I've seen is most people go through a period of mild depression / burnout, realize that a job can be a fun and rewarding part of life but isn't life in it's entirely, and then live on more happily after learning to keep some distance.
thirtythree 6y ago
> Playing along felt like the price of inclusion. Wait, what? The author played along for more than a year and then placed a complaint? Maybe it's the way the article is written but this seems pretty bad on the author's part. The author seemed to be mainly worried about their ruining their 'upward trajectory' in the company. Aaannnd the author is writing a book. Yes, I am cynical.
- pm90 6y ago
  > Wait, what? The author played along for more than a year and then placed a complaint? Maybe it's the way the article is written but this seems pretty bad on the author's part. “Playing along” simply means that she didn’t escalate the matter immediately to HR but ignored that (repeated) behavior in order to continue with her work. I don’t see anything wrong with her wanting to ignore this harassment in hopes that the harasser would stop, but deciding after a year that it was too much and never going to stop, at which point she decided to report it.
  - mcguire 6y ago
    I've already closed the article tab, but she writes that the harasser was about to be promoted to management---specifically, her manager.
- wombatpm 6y ago
  Because it is true. The fastest way to kill your career is to make complaint to HR. The second fastest way is to have a complaint made against you. Once you are a target of the system, there is a level of scrutiny you will be subject to that blocks you moving up and make sure your name is always on the potential layoff list. Not right away, and not in retaliation, but your days are numbered.
babelfish 6y ago
Archive link: https://archive.is/u4I1a https://archive.is/u4I1a
deleted 6y ago
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smsm42 6y ago
I've been doing my job for over 30 years, and I still love it. But I think it's very healthy to separate what you love to do and the company that pays money for it. The company can be great, and it can be crappy, and it can start out great and turn into crappy (I've never seen the reverse happen but who knows) but for people working in tech - we have the luxury of having a job that allows us choice from thousands of employers. Everybody needs tech people now - from trillion-dollar corporations to three-people startups. If your workplace sucks - you have an option to do it somewhere else. Yes, maybe it won't have an attached gym and free three-course meals - but, as hard as it is to believe, there are ways to get meals and workouts outside Google, and it's not even remotely hard. Yes, maybe you'd not be paid outrageous piles of money, just piles of money which would beyond the dreams of 98% of people in the country, not 99.9%. You can survive it, and you can even keep your love for what you're doing, without attaching yourself to a Google. It's ok to like your company, especially if it's about people you work with and things you're doing, but if you find yourself in love with a corporate monster like Google, you've gone off rails. It will hurt you, and it won't even know or care. It's not built for that.
deleted 6y ago
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spondyl 6y ago
For anyone interested, apparently the author went on to work at Facebook. I'd be lying if that said that didn't put a bit of a damper on the article for me. Partly because I expect exactly the same behaviour but also because of recent events such as data being leaked and all that.
fullshark 6y ago
Kind of fascinating how few of the comments here are about sexual harassment and just about general disillusionment with careerism.
- wffurr 6y ago
  Yeah, the handling of that whole situation is a) unsurprising and b) quite poor. Should've put the accused harasser on leave instead and then transferred them away or better yet fired them given the number of people who came out.
- BeetleB 6y ago
  Not really surprising, given that the author keeps emphasizing the disillusionment over the harrasment.
- ProZsolt 6y ago
  Most of the time I just read the title and go to the discussion. If the discussion seems worthy (maybe I already responded to something) I open (not necessarily read) the article. I think a lot of people do the same.
- anotherevan 5y ago
  Yes, I've been bumping against that while reading through the comments as well.
MyHypatia 6y ago
The takeaway I get from the comments here is, "HR isn't your friend." Okay, so what should she have done about being harassed? She ignored it for a year. If it's naive to go to HR then what is the "not naive" option? I see 3 options: (1) Put up with harassment, (2) Quit her job (forgoing her salary and stock) or (3) Go to HR. She tried (1) for a year, then tried (3) which ultimately led to (2). What is the "not naive" way to deal with being harassed?
- loopz 6y ago
  Not saying she was wrong, but getting help for systemic issues has never ever helped much. There's very little you can do but ignore assholes, or learn how to tear them a new one (you need to become damaged first). Anything in between only backfire and drag you down. That workplace environment was already dystopia. Realizing it sooner is preferable. There are every option before leaving too. But you rarely win with such people, so you only do it because it's the right thing to do. Don't ask what you should do. Do.
- alpha_squared 6y ago
  No one has really given an answer besides what you've stated. Personally, I have no idea what the best option is; my cynicism tells me that making it public may be the best course of action, though it's a very scorched-earth approach. By making the harassment known publicly (within the workplace, possibly outside), it forces HR's hand in dealing with the abuser rather than the abused. It also has a chance to backfire spectacularly and alienate the person. It probably would result in alienation even if the abuser was dealt with. There's really no good answer here, just varying degrees of bad ones. Perhaps there needs to be a fine against companies that attempt to silence/remove the victims, that'd create a financial incentive for HR to protect the company by removing the abuser.
- js2 6y ago
  My inclination would be to document as much as possible and talk to a lawyer for advice.
- abandonliberty 6y ago
  Don't ignore it for a year. She did very well to tell her lead that behavior made her uncomfortable. When it continued, it was time to bring it up with HR or her manager. Looks like the stress of living with it for a year made her want more action than HR provided for a first offence. If you re-read the article, it's not clear where Google HR is at fault. The investigation took too long? They didn't make him move his desk, work from home, or take leave? He was likely told a repeat incidence would lead to termination. She would have mentioned if the behavior continued, and doesn't. Her peer group/friends thought the behavior was mild, but she wanted Google to punish him for betrayals of her past. A more severe response wasn't warranted for a mild first offence (lots of people like this never reoffend). It wasn't bad enough to change his position, and obviously you can't ask the victim to change teams. Maybe more could have been done to help smooth their relationship, like an apology. Her career unravelling comes after this.
getpost 6y ago
Assuming the facts are as stated, Google's handling of this issue is inept. When there is a substantive conflict between employees, the employer needs to take immediate action, within 24 hours or less. For example, the complainant or the supervisor should have been assigned to work in a different location, or transferred to another project. This can be done with some finesse, so as not make the reason obvious to others. This is the right thing to do if harassment is occurring as described, or even if the complainant is making a false accusation. Given that the complaint was sustained, it would be interesting to know Google's experience as to whether supervisors' behavior changes or continues.
rsanek 6y ago
Why the "publicly traded" qualifier? The author should broaden her definition and realize that actually, the only family is in fact a real family. You can have communities outside of that, and indeed even within work. But certainly, a private company is just as much not a family.
james_smith_007 6y ago
First world problems. All this complains about what people on the west call "harassment" is ridiculous. 'Oh my God, he called me "beauty", my life is over!"... What the heck

298 points by donmcc 6y ago

1-6 6y ago

Sometimes, I don't blame the xooglers especially when its corporate culture has done an about-face in recent years. However, this person's first job out of school was at Google so they obviously don't understand 公公私私.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

boh 6y ago

The most surprising element of this article is that the writer was surprised at the outcome. It's 2021--who still doesn't think Google will act like any other large corporate entity? I know the general aesthetic of the Google offices gives the impression of a fun, futuristic, elementary school, but the MBA's managing Human Resources went to the same schools as the ones in every other major corporation. The principals of self-preservation are still the same. No one you work with anywhere is "family". Everyone who has the position of employee, is an expendable expense attempting to secure their fickle, fleeting position. This may be a little dramatic, but do not depend on the initiative of mercenaries. Most people are scared of everything and will avoid whatever confrontation comes out of supporting you (even when you're in the right).

gweinberg 6y ago
"It's 2021--who still doesn't think Google will act like any other large corporate entity?" People who think it will act worse.
magneticnorth 6y ago
The article mentions that she started at Google in 2015; things may have been different then. This was also her first job out of school, and I'll admit I, too, fell for the hype at my first tech job, before learning all the obvious-in-retrospect things being discussed here.
arafalov 6y ago
- "joined the company after college in 2015" - "In high school, I spent time homeless and in foster care, and was often ostracized for being nerdy" - "What I found was a surrogate family" Many of us got burned earlier in our career, one way or another. But coming from a truly difficult background, would have meant it was even harder for her to see behind the veil of "good company".
jmwilson 6y ago
It's not surprising at all. Anyone who worked at Google or Facebook during the decade or so ca. 2005-2015 is aware of the degree to which these companies presented themselves as a totally new and different workplace than the typical corporate employer. Facebook even had a little red handbook that stated on its cover, "Facebook was not originally created to be a company." With on-site banking, laundry, car-washes, dentistry, hobby/interest clubs, etc. they provide a mixed, almost collegiate environment that blended the workplace with a community. Many people who worked at these places fell in love with their jobs, the companies made it easy to. To some degree, anyone who was super cynical about this would select themselves out of the hiring pool. The writer joined out of college, and perhaps was a previous intern. Again, anyone familiar with the internship program at big tech companies knows how they aim to provide not just a mentored professional experience, but a social one including events with other interns and employees.
- Yassire 6y ago
  In the 90s IBM began massive layoffs. They were sued in a number of successful class action suits. The plaintiffs claimed IBM had heavily advanced the We're a big family ethos, also had daycares on the campus, dry cleaners, gyms, and even had multi-generational families working there. IBM was found liable and had to make large payments to its former employees
  - chrisbolt 6y ago
    Liable for what?
    - visarga 6y ago
      having gyms, I presume
    - jdmichal 6y ago
      The only thing I've found so far is age discrimination and race discrimination lawsuits. Nothing having to do with the working environment or promises.
    - 6y ago
adamrezich 6y ago
it takes time and experience to overcome that naiveté, especially when you're young. I have a friend in a similar situation who is now coming to terms with the fact that jobs are jobs and don't have to be your whole life.
- ZephyrBlu 6y ago
  I disagree, I think it just takes exposure. Learn from other people's mistakes instead of getting screwed over yourself. I'm young and realize that no matter how many sweet nothings companies whisper in your ears, at the end of the day it's a business relationship.
  - adamrezich 6y ago
    yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it's impossible to learn these lessons when you're young without direct experience. I just meant that it's not uncommon (in my experience) for young people to be extremely, unflappably enthusiastic about joining on at a large corporation, naïvely buying into the company line of BS. I can easily see myself as having been this kind of person if I got a job at a company like Google when I was young and impressionable.
  - NotPavlovsDog 6y ago
    You don't buy the bull, but consider this: why is there proven age bias in tech hiring? Same reason the military likes 'em young: it's easier to mold and manipulate fresh adults.
2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
I don't understand why acting like a large corporate entity is such a bad thing. It just is. Corporations are mortal entities and fear death. The first priority is to continue to simply exist. I don't see this as bad- just the natural order.
- hogFeast 6y ago
  Young people, I don't know if this is universal, associate bigness with badness and making money from trade with exploitation. The natural order is that some people need these companies to do something for them, that is why they exist. The utility of that system (creating things that people need) gets suffocated by our preoccupation with fairness. So people can only join these companies because they believe they are genuinely different...when no company is different because they all have the same function which largely depends on consumers, not staff.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
hogFeast 6y ago
It isn't because of the MBAs or because of the need to cut costs or whatever. It is to do with the employees too. If you start a company saying that you are very idealistic, you attract idealistic people (and btw, most companies say this because it is what young people want to hear). But the reality of being a human is that we have a habit of believing in our own honesty/goodness, whatever the actual content of our actions. Another good example was Obama (or perhaps Blair in the UK)...this kind of euphoric self-regard happens in other non-corporate contexts. Being human is thinking that "everything has changed now" , until you get old enough to realise nothing ever changes, and then the people who are saying "everything has changed now" again think you are too old and decrepit to listen to. It is eternal (this kind of fraud is a necessary component of capital markets). The stuff around Google is, however, particularly funny. The founders rhetoric is totally empty (Larry Page appears to be someone whose only distinguishing feature is supreme and total self-confidence). They have a rapacious monopoly which, by exploiting defects in corporate governance, they use to fund a bureaucracy of pet projects/niche interests of academics. You can dress it up any way you want (I can see why academics wanted to love Google, free money with no oversight) but it is still ultimately based on poor ethics (weak corporate governance, no oversight, stealing money from shareholders). Classic SV (wanting the luxury of making tons of easy money very fast AND the moral high ground).
perfect_wave 6y ago
I think that all it would take for these Googlers is one week as a TVC (temp/vendor/contractor) to get a view as to how Google really looks at things.
- nunez 6y ago
  Yes. I had friends who were TVCs and met a few while I was an FTE there. Google (and even some Googleras) treats their TVCs like dog shit. Cant even eat at the cafeterias.
ryanobjc 6y ago
Remember the X Files... "I want to believe". Her only "crime" was she was a greenhorn, and needed belonging and purpose. I feel truly sad for her, because while my cynical older self knows the ending what was in the cards, is it so WRONG to be hopeful, a little naive and earnest? Where were the people who were supposed to protect that? At least when you join the military and you become part of that family, everyone noncom at least believes in it. Even if the greater structure can toss you out, your brothers/sisters will attempt to come to your aid. No such luck in corporate america.

twiddling 6y ago

"When people ask me how I feel about my new position, I shrug: It’s a job." Yep, it is always just a job.

amelius 6y ago
Something you spend 1/2 of your waking life on is never "just" something.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  That’s the feeling that companies seek to exploit. I like my job, my profession and the mission associated with it, and have a certain level of pride. End of the day, I have a contract and meet my side of it to the best of my ability. The company does the same, until it doesn’t. My family, my personal life is why I work. A big part of the push of a bullshit mission is to make you pause your life. People end up not having kids because they waited till they were 38 because the big “mission” taking priority.
- wffurr 6y ago
  Yeah that's the tragedy of it.
- BeetleB 6y ago
  > Something you spend 1/2 of your waking life on is never "just" something. Then don't spend 1/2 your waking life on it. Stick to a 40 hour work week, and don't do weekends.
  - deanmoriarty 6y ago
    Even on a 40h week that’s still 35% of waking hours without counting the time needed to prepare, commute, ... including those 50% sounds very reasonable to me?

the_arun 6y ago

Initially it is pride. Once that wears out, it is another Job which you may or may not like.

blacktriangle 6y ago

It's possible to love a job without letting that job become a part of your identity. That's what it feels like FAANG is to a lot of people, particular this one for whom Google is their first job. It's not about love or not loving, it's about a healthy sense of boundaries between you and your workplace.

villasv 6y ago
This is so important, but unfortunately almost everyone will need a crisis to understand. We are raised to be “something”, “make a living”. When we introduce ourselves, the profession is right there with the name. Of course, we dedicate the majority of our awake time to work, but work is *usually not* what one is proud of at the very end. To many people, work represents the majority of their identity. After dealing with so many unemployed/retired people you can really grasp the extent of their distress caused by this. My father retired years ago, but kept working as freelancer. He says he learned from his father that if/when he stops working, he’ll die sooner. This is so sad.
- pm90 6y ago
  As human beings we do need some kind of activity that provides fulfillment. Most people spend a large part of their lives at the workspace and the only skills they excel at, which are fulfilling are work related. So it’s not too surprising that they would want more of that.
  - blacktriangle 6y ago
    Even then though, you can separate the work from the workplace. For example I absolutely identify as a programmer. Screw all this "never call yourself a programer, you're a business problem solver" advice, I LOVE programming. But that doesn't mean that the project I am currently working on or the company I work for defines me. Any given employment can be taken away from me at a moments notice for factors far outside of my control, but nobody can take away the skills and knowledge I accumulate.

arafalov 6y ago

There is a bunch of sad things in the story. But, not being FAANG engineer, there is something technical/financial in there I did not understand. Specifically: "When I didn’t get a promotion, some of my stock grants ran out and so I effectively took a big pay cut." - I think I roughly get what it means, but not specifically. Could some insider explain this?

astuyvenberg 6y ago
Most offers for FAANG companies include salary and stock compensation, that vests over 4 years. So if you were granted 400k in stock over 4 years, you'd get 100k per year in stock (which you can keep or sell, but it's real compensation). After those 4 years, the company will either give you another stock grant over another 4 years, or they will decide to show you the door - and not offer you anything. That's what seems to have occurred here.
- whateveracct 6y ago
  Really? When I've worked at FAANGs and other BigCos, there was a yearly re-up of stock vesting over 4 years each time.
  - paxys 6y ago
    It is all up to management discretion. I have known several cases where people's new stock grants were cut to zero in the hope that they'll just quit and save managers from going though the PIP/firing process.
    - random5634 6y ago
      For sure. At least at amazon while they don't demote you, if they are not that excited by you on the team equity goes pretty low. https://www.lastweekinaws.com/blog/aws-compensation-explained/ https://www.lastweekinaws.com/blog/aws-compensation-explaine...
  - astuyvenberg 6y ago

annoyingnoob 6y ago

I think everyone should get fired at least once, preferably early in your career. Business is business.

paxys 6y ago
While firing may be a bit drastic, I do agree that getting over the standard silicon valley new grad idealism ("company is my family, we are changing the world") as early as possible is always recommended. And this applies equally to Google and a random 5-person startup.
smsm42 6y ago
Everyone should also learn to quit, and that quitting your job when it sucks (or just stops working for you) is a win, not a loss. It's also much better than getting fired - you control how and when it happens.
phamilton 6y ago
When I was fired from my first job, a friend and mentor looked at me and asked "Is this your first time getting fired?" Everything about that question helped me gain perspective. Not only did he normalize getting fired, but he implied that getting fired multiple times in a career was quite possible and pretty independent of ones actual ability. I haven't been fired since, but I have thought about it often. Definitely a good lesson to learn early.
- microtherion 6y ago
  > "Is this your first time getting fired?" The kids have a meme for that now: https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/027/763/07B89120-B48D-45FB-AF1D-49AF6CD16790.jpeg https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/027/763/07B... The one time in my career I got laid off was the day after I got married. I had taken the day off, got back in the office the next day, and was let go. I was close to finishing my PhD at the time, and had never made a secret to my employer that I was planning to move abroad after that, but the layoff still came as a bit of a shock to me.

worker767424 6y ago

There are better stories that deserve this headline, stories where people land their dream job only to be disappointed by the role, or the company, not just one individual. Still, the position she was in sucks. You can never have a good working relationship with the harasser again, and the only outcome that would resolve the situation is the harasser getting fired, but that won't happen with only hearsay of inappropriate comments; it would need to be something egregious with witnesses. The only move is switching teams and telling HR so it (hopefully) doesn't happen again.

imbnwa 6y ago

I like how people think the import of the article is "corporations gonna corp" when its more like if you're not the right kind of male in this industry, you are vulnerable

rmvt 6y ago
what is the right kind of male?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- kevingadd 6y ago
  the kind that gets paid tens of millions USD by google to quietly leave for another high-paying job https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/11/18260712/google-amit-singhal-andy-rubin-payout-lawsuit-accused-sexual-harassment https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/11/18260712/google-amit-sing...
blueline 6y ago
seems like its both?
sameers 6y ago
The fact that it is both is precisely what is meant by "implicit privilege." The behavior of toxic men is considered "regular" enough that preventing it isn't considered worth the effort given the cost of "losing" those men or having to deal with a counter-lawsuit. If instead this man had a habit of dumping Koolaid over his co-workers every time they shipped a bug, let's say, he'd be fired right away. Because dumping Koolaid on people is considered "not okay." Hitting on women is considered "okay." It's not the corporation that considers these things okay or not - the corporation needs to maximize its financial interests and nothing more really. Society at large decides what's okay, and the corporation mostly lets those rules stand. Yes, there are cases where a corporation can play at the margins - for example, when corporations make a public statement about not doing business in states that pass illiberal laws. The calculation here is that their consumer base at large will reward their stance, or they have a monopoly position that makes this stance low-risk, even if they lose something in the short-term or get bad press from one end of the political spectrum. This is why we end up with laws that regular corporate behavior, like for example civil rights legislation that prohibits companies from discriminating by race. These laws passed at a time when such behavior was still considered largely "okay" in society, and the laws helped to reduce the spaces in which the okayness could sustain itself. It changed the Overton Window on this behavior you could say.

unwind 6y ago

Meta: the title has an extra "A " at the start.

PradeetPatel 6y ago

Hopefully the author also learned a valuable lesson here - HR is there to protect the interest of the company, not your friend. As someone who worked in RM(Reputation Management), my team have prevented, or mitigated a significant amount of potential reputation risk from would-be whistleblowers and dissatisfied employees. It's not a matter of friendship, but of interests.

hemloc_io 6y ago
"It's not a matter of friendship, but of interests" would be a great book title if you ever write one :P
- sombremesa 6y ago
  That's a horrendous book title.
- clumsysmurf 6y ago
  Already written "Corporate Confidential: 50 Secrets Your Company Doesn't Want You to Know---and What to Do About Them" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003K15PC4 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003K15PC4
  - nsajko 6y ago
    Interestingly, there's another book with the same title. Both are from 2005: By Dephillips: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/437452.Corporate_Confidential https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/437452.Corporate_Confide... By Shapiro: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/62085.Corporate_Confidential https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/62085.Corporate_Confiden...
  - one2three4 6y ago
    * There's no right to free speech in the workplace. * Age discrimination exists. * Why being too smart is not too smart. * Human Resources is not there to help you, but to protect the company from you That's just from the back of the book. OK. I need to read this.

tombert 6y ago

About 7 years ago, I worked at a startup that very close-knit. All the coworkers were friends with everyone, the CEO and CTO were fun to be around, so I would make a point to go to all the team outings and lunches. I really liked it there, felt that they were my "family" in some sense. About 9 months into my job, the company was hit with two lawsuits, and the leaders became very secretive and elusive and started changing rules to save money of questionable legality. For example, a rule was added to state that we had to work 40 billable hours a week. This doesn't sound that bad, but because of the lawsuits and attempts to settle them, any work done for the plaintiffs in the aforementioned lawsuits was not counted as "billable", and most of that work would eat up multiple hours of my day. This meant that in addition to the eight hours I had to work on a billable client, I would also end up spending an extra three to four hours working on non-billable stuff. This went on for multiple months, I started feeling depressed, but I put up with it because I really liked the company. Eventually, the company laid off 2/3 of the staff without any notice to any of the workers. I went from "employed" to "unemployed" overnight, and when I managed to get in touch with the CTO, he basically told me "thems the breaks. Sorry". I felt pretty betrayed, because I had spent two months working 60 hour weeks, all to be laid off because I was working on the wrong projects. After that, I made a bit of a vow to myself to remember that a job is, at its core, a business transaction. You sell your time and expertise for compensation. It's great if you really like your boss and your coworkers, that'll help avoid depression, but remember at the end of the day, a company is not your family, and if they don't think you're creating enough value for them, they will end this transaction.

shoguning 6y ago
I think there is a proper level of conviviality/cordiality and fun that you can bring to work without getting too personally invested. A lot of first-time employees may have trouble with this balance, but after a tough break or two you learn the ropes.
- tombert 6y ago
  Oh definitely, I'm not saying that you should always act like a utilitarian robot, and being a nice and fun person at your workplace can help you avoid burnout. I just think that you should always remember that, at the end of the day, it's still a job. If you remember that fact, it hurts less being laid off, and it's easier to quit a job if/when it becomes toxic.

ibudiallo 6y ago

I hate it when people say a job is a job. 10 hours a day is dedicated to my job. I'm awake for 16 hours and 10 of those I spend at work. This is where my friends are. This is where I meet new people. This is where I spend my time. But the reality is... Well yes, a job is a job, and the quicker you can accept it, the better you will feel. Once, this realization came to me when I worked at a fortune 10. I loved the job and was fascinated by the cool tech we used everyday. One day I came to work only to find out I was fired. My manager was just as surprised to hear it. Obviously it was a mistake, but my team watched as security guards came to escort me out of the building like a criminal. It didn't matter that they figured out it was a mistake. My coworkers became distant when I came back. When the story blew up, my employer denied I was ever employed there. An ex-coworker later told me that my position and projects have been completely scrubbed out of existence. A job is a job, if you can focus on your own gains please do. Then spend a little bit of time on this fun Ask HN[1]. We can't all get a job that loves us back, so in the meanwhile find something you love outside the job. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26721951 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26721951

tartoran 6y ago
Wait, were you fired then hired back? That sounds like an emotional rollercoaster. When security came to escort your out of the building, your team, the people who you made friendships revealed the true nature of the relationship. It's just a business transaction and you should not dedicate more than you are paid for. Yes, I read the previous HN post you linked in this comment. What was your conclusion for that? I'd like to know too
- ibudiallo 6y ago
  Yes, I was hired back. I learned my lesson, so I used this time to get all my ducks lined up and left the company in my own terms. I added a link to that thread because our most important commodity is time. Sure it sounds like promoting laziness, but lots of comments were about automating your job. You get to invest that newly found free time to do something you enjoy.
- hiyer 6y ago

loxias 6y ago

This is fantastic (unintended?) guerilla marketing for the author's current employer.

ludditetech 6y ago

Go girl you are a wonder of human nature. You did great dont take any shit from anyone. Came from a pretty shaky background myself to success in tech but as a self employed consultant which has incredible freedom but on the surface less job security perhaps, but over the last twenty years the phone has never stopped ringing. An option for you too with your skills.

thelean12 6y ago

It's strange to me that people love to shit on FAANG life so often. Every perk is scrutinized, as if serving dinner in the office means I MUST stay for dinner (I almost never do), or having a doctor or laundry service on campus is some nefarious thing. At the end of the day, you get paid a huge amount of money to do a moderate amount of work. It's the dream, to me. And then every once in a while people burn out and make it seem like it was the free dinner that did it. "I found my own doctor; I cook my own food." What does that have to do with anything? (Sure, HR is shitty and that's something to care about. But that's an industry wide issue, not a FAANG specific issue.)

bozzcl 6y ago
> you get paid a huge amount of money to do a moderate amount of work AWS would like a word with you.
- fizwhiz 6y ago
  F's in the chat for all the Amazon employees that I'm sure lurk around here.
- thelean12 6y ago
  Alright well idk about Amazon. I've worked for a few FAANG but not Amazon. But Google, the topic of the article, is definitely a company where you can do a moderate amount of work for large amounts of money.
doctor_eval 6y ago
She was sexually harassed in her workplace and says that the company protected the perpetrator at her expense. Any company that does this deserves to be shat on.
- thelean12 6y ago
  Uh, yeah, of course. I wasn't saying anything contrary to that. All I said is that people focus on the FAANG perks way too much, as if they're contributing to some problem. Even in the article, one their shining moments was when they cooked for themselves and found another doctor (??).

throwaway823882 6y ago

> When I joined the company after college Kids: all corporations suck. The bigger they are, the more likely they are to suck. Your corporation is not an exception, you're just lucky to work in a non-sucky corner of it, or have not yet glimpsed its suckitude. Ignore perks. Unless they come in the form of things you need that are expensive and rare (health care, child care, 401K match, maternity/paternity leave, continuing education fund, remote work). HR is not your friend. Executives don't care about employees. Do not tell your boss what's really on your mind. Your co-workers are not your friends. Do not expect anything of them. Do not be completely open, honest, and transparent. Do not be vulnerable. Do not compromise, and do not extend yourself. Do what you are required to do. Help when it is convenient, but do not become the "go-to" person, because it only looks like job security. Do not argue or complain. Send e-mails reiterating verbal agreements. Take screenshots of anything that looks fishy, abusive, manipulative. Keep your next job in the back of your head. Prepare for it. Make contacts, network, learn marketable skills. Develop soft skills, be friendly and outgoing, but lay low. Play nice, do not burn bridges. If someone is harassing you, intimidating you, making unreasonable demands, or otherwise disturbing you: slowly document evidence and record eye-witness testimony, first in e-mails, then in screenshots (e-mails and other documents get purged regularly to protect the company when they get sued). Find co-workers to corroborate your story and co-sign a petition with you. Find your harasser's corporate enemies and recruit them. People in your company may try to bury your complaints, either to protect The Company (again, HR is not your friend), or to further a manager/executive's political needs, or because they just don't believe you. The company may try to discredit you and will use any ammunition (that they have been silently compiling) against you. Finally, if you feel like your mental or physical well-being is at risk: Quit. Your. Job. It doesn't matter if what's happening to you is unfair or unjust. You are a very small cog, and the corporation is a very big wheel. If you decide to write a public tell-all like the author's here, it will work against you at future employers. It is not worth the fight. There is no prize to win. It's just a job.

loopz 6y ago
It's just a job, but we need to hold corps to higher standards too. The way I see it, all kinds of people work together. That is expected to go badly at times. So it depends how one play it, but still accept diversity of people, even assholes.

bla3 6y ago

It's common for people to identify with their job too much, independent of employer. It almost feels like it's a rite of passage to pour everything into your first job in your early to mid twenties, especially if you're a high performer with something to prove and you're lucky enough to work on something that "really matters". What I've seen is most people go through a period of mild depression / burnout, realize that a job can be a fun and rewarding part of life but isn't life in it's entirely, and then live on more happily after learning to keep some distance.

thirtythree 6y ago

> Playing along felt like the price of inclusion. Wait, what? The author played along for more than a year and then placed a complaint? Maybe it's the way the article is written but this seems pretty bad on the author's part. The author seemed to be mainly worried about their ruining their 'upward trajectory' in the company. Aaannnd the author is writing a book. Yes, I am cynical.

pm90 6y ago
> Wait, what? The author played along for more than a year and then placed a complaint? Maybe it's the way the article is written but this seems pretty bad on the author's part. “Playing along” simply means that she didn’t escalate the matter immediately to HR but ignored that (repeated) behavior in order to continue with her work. I don’t see anything wrong with her wanting to ignore this harassment in hopes that the harasser would stop, but deciding after a year that it was too much and never going to stop, at which point she decided to report it.
- mcguire 6y ago
  I've already closed the article tab, but she writes that the harasser was about to be promoted to management---specifically, her manager.
wombatpm 6y ago
Because it is true. The fastest way to kill your career is to make complaint to HR. The second fastest way is to have a complaint made against you. Once you are a target of the system, there is a level of scrutiny you will be subject to that blocks you moving up and make sure your name is always on the potential layoff list. Not right away, and not in retaliation, but your days are numbered.

babelfish 6y ago

Archive link: https://archive.is/u4I1a https://archive.is/u4I1a

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smsm42 6y ago

I've been doing my job for over 30 years, and I still love it. But I think it's very healthy to separate what you love to do and the company that pays money for it. The company can be great, and it can be crappy, and it can start out great and turn into crappy (I've never seen the reverse happen but who knows) but for people working in tech - we have the luxury of having a job that allows us choice from thousands of employers. Everybody needs tech people now - from trillion-dollar corporations to three-people startups. If your workplace sucks - you have an option to do it somewhere else. Yes, maybe it won't have an attached gym and free three-course meals - but, as hard as it is to believe, there are ways to get meals and workouts outside Google, and it's not even remotely hard. Yes, maybe you'd not be paid outrageous piles of money, just piles of money which would beyond the dreams of 98% of people in the country, not 99.9%. You can survive it, and you can even keep your love for what you're doing, without attaching yourself to a Google. It's ok to like your company, especially if it's about people you work with and things you're doing, but if you find yourself in love with a corporate monster like Google, you've gone off rails. It will hurt you, and it won't even know or care. It's not built for that.

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spondyl 6y ago

For anyone interested, apparently the author went on to work at Facebook. I'd be lying if that said that didn't put a bit of a damper on the article for me. Partly because I expect exactly the same behaviour but also because of recent events such as data being leaked and all that.

fullshark 6y ago

Kind of fascinating how few of the comments here are about sexual harassment and just about general disillusionment with careerism.

wffurr 6y ago
Yeah, the handling of that whole situation is a) unsurprising and b) quite poor. Should've put the accused harasser on leave instead and then transferred them away or better yet fired them given the number of people who came out.
BeetleB 6y ago
Not really surprising, given that the author keeps emphasizing the disillusionment over the harrasment.
ProZsolt 6y ago
Most of the time I just read the title and go to the discussion. If the discussion seems worthy (maybe I already responded to something) I open (not necessarily read) the article. I think a lot of people do the same.
anotherevan 5y ago
Yes, I've been bumping against that while reading through the comments as well.

MyHypatia 6y ago

The takeaway I get from the comments here is, "HR isn't your friend." Okay, so what should she have done about being harassed? She ignored it for a year. If it's naive to go to HR then what is the "not naive" option? I see 3 options: (1) Put up with harassment, (2) Quit her job (forgoing her salary and stock) or (3) Go to HR. She tried (1) for a year, then tried (3) which ultimately led to (2). What is the "not naive" way to deal with being harassed?

loopz 6y ago
Not saying she was wrong, but getting help for systemic issues has never ever helped much. There's very little you can do but ignore assholes, or learn how to tear them a new one (you need to become damaged first). Anything in between only backfire and drag you down. That workplace environment was already dystopia. Realizing it sooner is preferable. There are every option before leaving too. But you rarely win with such people, so you only do it because it's the right thing to do. Don't ask what you should do. Do.
alpha_squared 6y ago
No one has really given an answer besides what you've stated. Personally, I have no idea what the best option is; my cynicism tells me that making it public may be the best course of action, though it's a very scorched-earth approach. By making the harassment known publicly (within the workplace, possibly outside), it forces HR's hand in dealing with the abuser rather than the abused. It also has a chance to backfire spectacularly and alienate the person. It probably would result in alienation even if the abuser was dealt with. There's really no good answer here, just varying degrees of bad ones. Perhaps there needs to be a fine against companies that attempt to silence/remove the victims, that'd create a financial incentive for HR to protect the company by removing the abuser.
js2 6y ago
My inclination would be to document as much as possible and talk to a lawyer for advice.
abandonliberty 6y ago
Don't ignore it for a year. She did very well to tell her lead that behavior made her uncomfortable. When it continued, it was time to bring it up with HR or her manager. Looks like the stress of living with it for a year made her want more action than HR provided for a first offence. If you re-read the article, it's not clear where Google HR is at fault. The investigation took too long? They didn't make him move his desk, work from home, or take leave? He was likely told a repeat incidence would lead to termination. She would have mentioned if the behavior continued, and doesn't. Her peer group/friends thought the behavior was mild, but she wanted Google to punish him for betrayals of her past. A more severe response wasn't warranted for a mild first offence (lots of people like this never reoffend). It wasn't bad enough to change his position, and obviously you can't ask the victim to change teams. Maybe more could have been done to help smooth their relationship, like an apology. Her career unravelling comes after this.

getpost 6y ago

Assuming the facts are as stated, Google's handling of this issue is inept. When there is a substantive conflict between employees, the employer needs to take immediate action, within 24 hours or less. For example, the complainant or the supervisor should have been assigned to work in a different location, or transferred to another project. This can be done with some finesse, so as not make the reason obvious to others. This is the right thing to do if harassment is occurring as described, or even if the complainant is making a false accusation. Given that the complaint was sustained, it would be interesting to know Google's experience as to whether supervisors' behavior changes or continues.

rsanek 6y ago

Why the "publicly traded" qualifier? The author should broaden her definition and realize that actually, the only family is in fact a real family. You can have communities outside of that, and indeed even within work. But certainly, a private company is just as much not a family.

james_smith_007 6y ago

First world problems. All this complains about what people on the west call "harassment" is ridiculous. 'Oh my God, he called me "beauty", my life is over!"... What the heck