5 ms·

I don't know about putting in the least amount of effort for 5 days a week. But what I do know is that in my country, the Netherlands, part-time work is more an

I don't know about putting in the least amount of effort for 5 days a week. But what I do know is that in my country, the Netherlands, part-time work is more and more becoming the standard. Already, 75% of women and 30% of men work 32 hours a week or less. In many sectors the fulltime standard has been lowered to 36 hours, which means every other Friday off. I myself started on 40 and will move to 32 hours somewhere next year. It's your right by law to reduce your hours for the same pay/hour. So my advice would be to look for remote only dev jobs in the Netherlands, and just ask to work 24h or 32h a week. It's very common here and won't be a roadblock. Although this is going to entirely depend on how much money you actually need to get by.

Aeolun 6y ago
> It's very common here and won't be a roadblock. Some companies won't let you do 24hr/week though. They'll require at least 32hrs :P
ethbr0 6y ago
I'm extremely curious about this from a practical perspective. (Disclaimer: American, so probably not the best work-life perspective) As far as company / coworker expectations, how does this work? Are responsibilities / work adjusted to fit the hours provided? What about being on-call? It seems like something a lot of companies should be taking advantage of, but the desire to own souls fights against it.
- apexalpha 6y ago
  Yes, responsibilities will be adjusted accordingly. On-Call depends a bit on your sector and what the unions agreed. Most of the time one hour on call will count for 0.25 hour worked I think, at least that's how it was for someone I knew. And most people simply put their days / hours in their e-mail signature so other colleagues know when to expect a reaction. From personal experience this works fine. Half my team is off every Friday and some also on Wednesdays. Companies can and do require 36 or 40 hours though, but most of the time vacancies will list something like "24-36" to signal the possibilities. --- edit: for your curiosity: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/visualisaties/dashboard-arbeidsmarkt/werkenden https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/visualisaties/dashboard-arbeidsmark... It's in Dutch, but as long as you know that 'uur' = 'hour' you can read the charts. As of 2020, 72% of men worked 35 hours or more (full-time) compared to 26% of women.
- hectormalot 6y ago
  Majority of my team works 4 days/week, but do so by working 4x9 hours (36 total) instead of 5x8 hours (40 total). We don't really do less work (or take longer for projects). Some observations: * The folks working 4 days are a bit less likely to pick-up 'side activities' (e.g. help organise an external event, lead some of the recruiting efforts, etc.), because a day away takes out 25% of active time in one go. * Ratio overhead vs work is probably better for the part of the team working 4x9 vs 5x8. It turns out they can miss many of these meetings and still be fine without additional catch-ups. (unfortunately not in my power to just remove it completely) * I believe in people having broad responsibilities ("deliver this project in the best way you see fit") rather than "work X hours". We don't downscope projects because someone works 4 vs 5 days, but no one has ever remarked on it either. This type of responsibility sometimes means people wrap-up early, sometimes they feel responsible enough to pick something really important up in the evening/weekend and take a few hours off on another day. * I think the ~10% difference wouldn't be measurable for software (or AI in our case) development anyway, we're not a call center where you can measure 'minutes called'. Final notes: * This is my European/Dutch perspective. I understand this trend is stronger in the nordics/Germany/Netherlands than in the southern countries. Having managed a team in the US in the past, I find it hard to imagine how this would work in the US culture I experienced. * I have no desire to own souls ;)
  - apexalpha 6y ago
    Nice to see a reply from a managers perspective. That being said, 4x9 is not considered part-time in NL.
    - hectormalot 6y ago
      That’s fair, 4x9 is indeed more the standard these days. On real part-time: I think once it moves below 3 days a week it works better for transactional roles. E.g. I know dentists that work for a few days per week in a practice, people with 8-16h per week in chat-support, 3-day/wk secretaries, etc. Most of these roles measure their work in calls/appointments/hours rather than longer running projects though. But with the right culture it can be done in IT as well, I think Gumroad is a good example.
- GordonS 6y ago
  I work in the UK as a remote architect for a megacorp, working a 4-day week, 7.5h per day Mon-Thu. I work on projects all across Europe and Scandinavian. I moved to a 4-day week a long time back - something like 7 years, I guess. Honestly, I get as much done in 4 days as I did in 5 - I really think it's a sweet spot, where you are forced to focus more for a shorter time. Anyways, in terms of team working, obviously some meetings need to be either held without me, or not held on Fridays. Otherwise, it's simply never been an issue. I've worked before with developers who work similar hours, and again it's never been a problem - we just adjust our sprint capacity/staffing accordingly.
  - edem 6y ago
    Do you have open positions? Sounds like something I'd do too.
    - GordonS 6y ago
      If you're in the UK or Europe (AFAIK, this applies to Europe too), by law, any company has to seriously consider requests for flexible working (e.g. part-time hours). I simply asked, and they said "yeah, OK". Obviously working 20% less hours means 20% less pay and holidays. I work for an out-sourcing and consulting mega-corp - I get to work on interesting projects, but and honestly, it's a horrible company to work for in terms of culture, power struggles, biases, bureaucracy and lay-offs. I plan on getting out soon, going full-time on my side business. As such, I'd never recommend them to anyone.
      - edem 6y ago
        Fair enough.
- raphaelj 6y ago
  I've been working 4d/week for 4 years for a small Belgian company. I'm a software engineer. I've never got any complain from my manager, employer or colleagues about it. I'm usually taking my day off on Friday. All my colleagues know it, so we will try to schedule meetings for which I'm required on other days. If that's not possible (it only happens a few times per year), I'm flexible enough to take my time off some other day. I might be 90% as productive compared to when I was when working full-time. This difference is probably too low to be noticeable by anybody else in the team. My gross got reduced by 20%. But considering the way taxation works in Belgium, I'm only getting about 10% less on my bank account. I also got promoted to a senior role since then, which entirely offset the difference anyway. While it has been working extremely well for me (I spent the additional free time doing physical activities and launching my personal project [1]), it might be harder/impossible to get into higher positions (team leader, project manager...) while working part-time. -- [1] https://noisycamp.com https://noisycamp.com
busymom0 6y ago
> It's your right by law to reduce your hours for the same pay/hour. Is this actually a thing? There are laws regarding this? How do these laws work if there's a job requirement itself which needs certain number of hours?
- Someone 6y ago
  https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM%3Ac10416 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM...: “Part-time workers cannot be treated less favourably than comparable full-time workers solely because they work part-time, unless it can be objectively justified.” So, employers can deny requests for shorter working hours, but only if that can be objectively justified. In general, that’s fairly hard to do, given the amount of part-time workers and the diversity of their jobs already in the market.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    And that if the person still gets full benefits, then the hourly rate can be objectively reduced to offset the difference in total compensation rate.
  - totalminimalist 6y ago
    Have you heard of Texas? Almost the worst state in the union for workers. This is a right-to-work or at-will employment state. This means employers can, and often do, treat workers like slaves with little oversight. Texas law says an employer can fire a worker without "cause or condition". They could fire anyone for almost anything and they do. This state is absolutely hostile to unions, worker rights, and higher pay. The only reason I can avoid much of this is because I work for a not-for-profit and we treat each other with respect. I'm blessed in this regard. I'm negotiating with my wife to move to the PNW at some point. I hate the politics, weather, and redneck outlook here with a raging passion.
    - tj0 6y ago
      I worked in Texas for a stint, and completely understand what you describe here. However, don't look to the PNW as a place it's any better. Both Oregon and Washington are at-will states, and have the same laws with the same kind of work cultures -- you're a cog in a system, and if you start grinding or upsetting the status quo in some way, the candidate pool in this region is strong enough, they'll replace you. However, the expectation still remains that when you choose to exercise your same rights under at-will that you give two weeks notice. Can't say any employer is going to give an employee that same courtesy when letting them go. Not to mention if you're salaried, you might as well accept that your role is nothing more than indentured servitude branded as capitalism (to clarify, this may not be at all companies, but definitely is a strong cultural trait I've seen at the ones I've worked at). All that being said, the PNW is much prettier than many areas of Texas, and while natives are hostile towards transplants, the quality of life is leaps and bounds better than that horrendous mass of land called the Lone Star State.
langitbiru 6y ago
I created a part-time jobs board: https://parttime.careers/ https://parttime.careers/ I hope it will be useful for people in this thread.
- unfocused 6y ago
  I was going to reply to the parent, but yeah, perhaps going part-time might be the simplest and quickest solution?
aeyes 6y ago
NL is a strange place to work in IT, I worked there for a little while doing consulting work. Projects were not meeting deadlines yet everybody dropped the pen at 5pm sharp, I was baffled and amazed at the same time.
- dreen 6y ago
  I think that's the right approach. The alternative is crunch, but you can't have a workplace non-workaholics want to work at that does crunch.
- halfdan 6y ago
  I like this. Deadlines are set by humans and inherently flawed. It isn't right to go into crunch mode when a deadline isn't met - instead how the deadline was set and how it can be improved should be revisited.
- louwrentius 6y ago
  It all depends on context. Most project deadlines are artificial bullshit anyway. And the reasons why a project is not on schedule may not be due to the behavior of people dropping their work at 5pm. Even so, tough luck: in NL most work to live, we don’t live to work like in some other countries. I really resonated with the original question of ASK HN.
IAmNotAFix 6y ago
France be like what the hell are you talking about.
cutler 6y ago
Fine if you're single with low rent. If you have a family and a mortgage I can't see how this is an option.
- theodric 6y ago
  My wife's parents raised 3 kids and paid a mortgage on two part-time salaries. Europe: it's where it's at for work-life balance.
  - cutler 6y ago
    Then I guess the UK never belonged in Europe after all.
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  People in this kind of career easily make twice the country's average. If most people can live on that average, then you can bear a 20% salary reduction.

Aeolun 6y ago

> It's very common here and won't be a roadblock. Some companies won't let you do 24hr/week though. They'll require at least 32hrs :P

ethbr0 6y ago

I'm extremely curious about this from a practical perspective. (Disclaimer: American, so probably not the best work-life perspective) As far as company / coworker expectations, how does this work? Are responsibilities / work adjusted to fit the hours provided? What about being on-call? It seems like something a lot of companies should be taking advantage of, but the desire to own souls fights against it.

apexalpha 6y ago
Yes, responsibilities will be adjusted accordingly. On-Call depends a bit on your sector and what the unions agreed. Most of the time one hour on call will count for 0.25 hour worked I think, at least that's how it was for someone I knew. And most people simply put their days / hours in their e-mail signature so other colleagues know when to expect a reaction. From personal experience this works fine. Half my team is off every Friday and some also on Wednesdays. Companies can and do require 36 or 40 hours though, but most of the time vacancies will list something like "24-36" to signal the possibilities. --- edit: for your curiosity: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/visualisaties/dashboard-arbeidsmarkt/werkenden https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/visualisaties/dashboard-arbeidsmark... It's in Dutch, but as long as you know that 'uur' = 'hour' you can read the charts. As of 2020, 72% of men worked 35 hours or more (full-time) compared to 26% of women.
hectormalot 6y ago
Majority of my team works 4 days/week, but do so by working 4x9 hours (36 total) instead of 5x8 hours (40 total). We don't really do less work (or take longer for projects). Some observations: * The folks working 4 days are a bit less likely to pick-up 'side activities' (e.g. help organise an external event, lead some of the recruiting efforts, etc.), because a day away takes out 25% of active time in one go. * Ratio overhead vs work is probably better for the part of the team working 4x9 vs 5x8. It turns out they can miss many of these meetings and still be fine without additional catch-ups. (unfortunately not in my power to just remove it completely) * I believe in people having broad responsibilities ("deliver this project in the best way you see fit") rather than "work X hours". We don't downscope projects because someone works 4 vs 5 days, but no one has ever remarked on it either. This type of responsibility sometimes means people wrap-up early, sometimes they feel responsible enough to pick something really important up in the evening/weekend and take a few hours off on another day. * I think the ~10% difference wouldn't be measurable for software (or AI in our case) development anyway, we're not a call center where you can measure 'minutes called'. Final notes: * This is my European/Dutch perspective. I understand this trend is stronger in the nordics/Germany/Netherlands than in the southern countries. Having managed a team in the US in the past, I find it hard to imagine how this would work in the US culture I experienced. * I have no desire to own souls ;)
- apexalpha 6y ago
  Nice to see a reply from a managers perspective. That being said, 4x9 is not considered part-time in NL.
  - hectormalot 6y ago
    That’s fair, 4x9 is indeed more the standard these days. On real part-time: I think once it moves below 3 days a week it works better for transactional roles. E.g. I know dentists that work for a few days per week in a practice, people with 8-16h per week in chat-support, 3-day/wk secretaries, etc. Most of these roles measure their work in calls/appointments/hours rather than longer running projects though. But with the right culture it can be done in IT as well, I think Gumroad is a good example.
GordonS 6y ago
I work in the UK as a remote architect for a megacorp, working a 4-day week, 7.5h per day Mon-Thu. I work on projects all across Europe and Scandinavian. I moved to a 4-day week a long time back - something like 7 years, I guess. Honestly, I get as much done in 4 days as I did in 5 - I really think it's a sweet spot, where you are forced to focus more for a shorter time. Anyways, in terms of team working, obviously some meetings need to be either held without me, or not held on Fridays. Otherwise, it's simply never been an issue. I've worked before with developers who work similar hours, and again it's never been a problem - we just adjust our sprint capacity/staffing accordingly.
- edem 6y ago
  Do you have open positions? Sounds like something I'd do too.
  - GordonS 6y ago
    If you're in the UK or Europe (AFAIK, this applies to Europe too), by law, any company has to seriously consider requests for flexible working (e.g. part-time hours). I simply asked, and they said "yeah, OK". Obviously working 20% less hours means 20% less pay and holidays. I work for an out-sourcing and consulting mega-corp - I get to work on interesting projects, but and honestly, it's a horrible company to work for in terms of culture, power struggles, biases, bureaucracy and lay-offs. I plan on getting out soon, going full-time on my side business. As such, I'd never recommend them to anyone.
    - edem 6y ago
      Fair enough.
raphaelj 6y ago
I've been working 4d/week for 4 years for a small Belgian company. I'm a software engineer. I've never got any complain from my manager, employer or colleagues about it. I'm usually taking my day off on Friday. All my colleagues know it, so we will try to schedule meetings for which I'm required on other days. If that's not possible (it only happens a few times per year), I'm flexible enough to take my time off some other day. I might be 90% as productive compared to when I was when working full-time. This difference is probably too low to be noticeable by anybody else in the team. My gross got reduced by 20%. But considering the way taxation works in Belgium, I'm only getting about 10% less on my bank account. I also got promoted to a senior role since then, which entirely offset the difference anyway. While it has been working extremely well for me (I spent the additional free time doing physical activities and launching my personal project [1]), it might be harder/impossible to get into higher positions (team leader, project manager...) while working part-time. -- [1] https://noisycamp.com https://noisycamp.com

busymom0 6y ago

> It's your right by law to reduce your hours for the same pay/hour. Is this actually a thing? There are laws regarding this? How do these laws work if there's a job requirement itself which needs certain number of hours?

Someone 6y ago
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM%3Ac10416 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM...: “Part-time workers cannot be treated less favourably than comparable full-time workers solely because they work part-time, unless it can be objectively justified.” So, employers can deny requests for shorter working hours, but only if that can be objectively justified. In general, that’s fairly hard to do, given the amount of part-time workers and the diversity of their jobs already in the market.
- giantg2 6y ago
  And that if the person still gets full benefits, then the hourly rate can be objectively reduced to offset the difference in total compensation rate.
- totalminimalist 6y ago
  Have you heard of Texas? Almost the worst state in the union for workers. This is a right-to-work or at-will employment state. This means employers can, and often do, treat workers like slaves with little oversight. Texas law says an employer can fire a worker without "cause or condition". They could fire anyone for almost anything and they do. This state is absolutely hostile to unions, worker rights, and higher pay. The only reason I can avoid much of this is because I work for a not-for-profit and we treat each other with respect. I'm blessed in this regard. I'm negotiating with my wife to move to the PNW at some point. I hate the politics, weather, and redneck outlook here with a raging passion.
  - tj0 6y ago
    I worked in Texas for a stint, and completely understand what you describe here. However, don't look to the PNW as a place it's any better. Both Oregon and Washington are at-will states, and have the same laws with the same kind of work cultures -- you're a cog in a system, and if you start grinding or upsetting the status quo in some way, the candidate pool in this region is strong enough, they'll replace you. However, the expectation still remains that when you choose to exercise your same rights under at-will that you give two weeks notice. Can't say any employer is going to give an employee that same courtesy when letting them go. Not to mention if you're salaried, you might as well accept that your role is nothing more than indentured servitude branded as capitalism (to clarify, this may not be at all companies, but definitely is a strong cultural trait I've seen at the ones I've worked at). All that being said, the PNW is much prettier than many areas of Texas, and while natives are hostile towards transplants, the quality of life is leaps and bounds better than that horrendous mass of land called the Lone Star State.

langitbiru 6y ago

I created a part-time jobs board: https://parttime.careers/ https://parttime.careers/ I hope it will be useful for people in this thread.

unfocused 6y ago
I was going to reply to the parent, but yeah, perhaps going part-time might be the simplest and quickest solution?

aeyes 6y ago

NL is a strange place to work in IT, I worked there for a little while doing consulting work. Projects were not meeting deadlines yet everybody dropped the pen at 5pm sharp, I was baffled and amazed at the same time.

dreen 6y ago
I think that's the right approach. The alternative is crunch, but you can't have a workplace non-workaholics want to work at that does crunch.
halfdan 6y ago
I like this. Deadlines are set by humans and inherently flawed. It isn't right to go into crunch mode when a deadline isn't met - instead how the deadline was set and how it can be improved should be revisited.
louwrentius 6y ago
It all depends on context. Most project deadlines are artificial bullshit anyway. And the reasons why a project is not on schedule may not be due to the behavior of people dropping their work at 5pm. Even so, tough luck: in NL most work to live, we don’t live to work like in some other countries. I really resonated with the original question of ASK HN.

IAmNotAFix 6y ago

France be like what the hell are you talking about.

cutler 6y ago

Fine if you're single with low rent. If you have a family and a mortgage I can't see how this is an option.

theodric 6y ago
My wife's parents raised 3 kids and paid a mortgage on two part-time salaries. Europe: it's where it's at for work-life balance.
- cutler 6y ago
  Then I guess the UK never belonged in Europe after all.
benhurmarcel 6y ago
People in this kind of career easily make twice the country's average. If most people can live on that average, then you can bear a 20% salary reduction.