14 ms·

A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

234 points by meribold 6y ago

enriquto 6y ago
This is a refreshing, level-headed text, signed by the real name of its individual author. It is not intended to stir the mob but as a kind path towards understanding; I like it.
- thinkingemote 6y ago
  It's a bit calmer than other defenses. The attack letter is an attack but because it's vicious and misleading doesn't mean all criticism becomes invalid. But it is the mob. Damned if you do and dammed if you dont. (Don't be surprised if HN users flag this submission however because I think they don't seem anything new)
  - simion314 6y ago
    >(Don't be surprised if HN users flag this submission however because I think they don't seem anything new) They flagged it again, fuck all the idiots that flag stuff with the intention to hide it. I don't remember ever flagging stuff even if I see a lot of garbage , but yeah better to see some old stuff about Rust on first page or I am waiting some article about Covid to appear again(like Covid is more on topic then RMS for some reason)
yur3i__ 6y ago
As much as I like rms, I find it very difficult to move past his comments on child pornography[1]. [1] https://stallman.org/notes/2011-mar-jun.html#4_June_2011_(Border_Searches) https://stallman.org/notes/2011-mar-jun.html#4_June_2011_(Bo...
- joana035 6y ago
  Since the sky is blue police has been using CP as an excuse to break encryption, search electronic devices, etc. RMS is not wrong.
  - yur3i__ 6y ago
    That's not really the part I have an issue with, its more the assertion that child pornography "does not hurt anyone".
    - joana035 6y ago
      You are taking his arguments out of context. Everything out of context will sound strange.
      - KingOfCoders 6y ago
        Because there has been this "out of context" argument used several times in this discussion, and I don't understand it: Can you explain to me how the context of [1] and [4] makes [2] and [3] - "is having that photo is not hurting everyone" - sound different than without the context? "[1] This "child pornography" might be a photo of yourself or your lover that the two of you shared. [2] It might be an image of a sexually mature teenager that any normal adult would find attractive. What's heinous about having such a photo? [3] But even when it is uncontroversial to call the subject depicted a "child", that is no excuse for censorship. Having a photo or drawing does not hurt anyone, so and if you or I think it is disgusting, that is no excuse for censorship. [4] The government will invent an unlimited number of opportunities to censor us and search us if we grant the legitimacy of its all-purpose excuses for doing so."
        simion314 6y ago
        Maybe if you and your girlfriend are 17 , she sends you a picture, then next day you are 18 but her picture is of a 17 years old so you are a criminal now. So make CP illegal, find the criminals if you can, stop the commerce with such material , my paranoia is that I could be setup by police, or by someone that does not like me or even by a fucking troll. In today world such an accusation can destroy your life.
        loup-vaillant 6y ago
- why_Mr_Anderson 6y ago
  If a 16 years old girl sends nude photo her 16 year old boyfriend in Germany, it's fine. If she does the same in US, he's pedophile. This is what RMS was talking about.
  - yur3i__ 6y ago
    >But even when it is uncontroversial to call the subject depicted a "child", that is no excuse for censorship. Having a photo or drawing does not hurt anyone
    - gnomewascool 6y ago
      Yes, the vast majority of people, including me, would disagree with that. However, why is somebody holding these opinions a show-stopper? One could argue that that's because in many cases somebody holding these opinions is a "dog whistle" for the person actually being a paedophile. In the case of RMS, though, we have no evidence that he actually is a paedophile, despite him being pretty thoroughly scrutinised over the years. We also know that he has a need to question everything and write about where he disagrees with society, which he presents in excruciating detail on his website, so it's not that he has some sort of fixation on this topic. I'd argue that in an ideal society we should encourage thoughtfully heterodox people, since once in a while they'll invent something revolutionary like free software and copyleft, while them also sometimes holding some very weird opinions is not much of a cost. In the non-ideal real world, once RMS came up with his revolutionary ideas, he probably should have stopped talking about his most fringe ideas, so his resignation as president of the FSF, for instance, had been sensible and over-due.
  - truculent 6y ago
    That is the most generous possible interpretation, and frankly, I do not think it's supported by the actually linked text. The only line that could be interpreted in that way would be: > This "child pornography" might be a photo of yourself or your lover that the two of you shared. And even then, it is ambiguous.
  - Toutouxc 6y ago
    Is it fine in Germany? I believe that over here in the Czech Republic it's the same pedophile story. You can literally have a bunch of 15 year olds having hardcore bdsm group sex, but they're criminals the moment someone snaps a photo of a nipple.
- henearkr 6y ago
  He seems genuinely ignorant (to his defense) that those are not just still pictures, images, "doing no harm", but that they have a story, they have been taken at some point, sometimes under duress, and then that some people are paying to get them, so it's a whole economics, and it's powerful enough to crush the weak at the bottom end, including non-consentant enslaved children. Then again, maybe what should be prohibited and punished is the sale and the buy, rather than just the possession. But is it technically feasible?
- Toutouxc 6y ago
  I don't find it difficult at all, because the way he sees it, what he says is strictly logically true. Possession of CP material does not hurt anyone. The fact that people who want to possess (and are willing to pay for) CP material are a huge reason for CP material to be created by whatever means available (that's the part that hurts people) seems to be lost on him. His ideas on free software and freedom in general are certainly noble and inspiring, but it's like he went a hundred steps too far in simplifying everything.
  - KingOfCoders 6y ago
    Me having kicked you doesn't hurt anyone - the act of kicking you does hurt. So after I have kicked you, and you no longer feel pain, no harm done? I'm stealing your lunch and the next day you have a new lunch and are no longer hungry, no harm done? I think the act can't be seperated from the result - this is were people go wrong.
    - McSinyx 6y ago
      You missed the ease of digital replication: one needs not participate in a sexual act involving children to replicate child pornography. It's not like it's a healthy thing to consume such material, but the distinction must be made to avoid the concept being abused by digital publishers who think one sharing an ebook with a friend would cause lost in their revenue.
      - KingOfCoders 6y ago
        If I steal an apple from you and grow more apples from it and give them away, there is no difference to the act of stealing your apple and eating it. As a side note: RMS seams to be totally against "stealing" digital GPLed code.
        torthrowaway999 6y ago
        >If I steal an apple from you and grow more apples from it and give them away, there is no difference to the act of stealing your apple and eating it. Certainly, but we talk about digital good here, stealing the first apple harms me (unless if I was not going to use it regardless), copying it however does not. >RMS seams to be totally against "stealing" digital GPLed code. Please explain what you mean by stealing here. He is against taking GPLed code, modifying it, compiling it, and then distributing the binary without distributing your modifications. He has no problem with selling the application/code. He has no problem with keeping the modifications to yourself as long as you do not share the binary. He has no problem with distributing the unmodified binary and/or code.
- audunw 6y ago
  From what I understand his actual views aren't that horrible. But it's almost as if he goes out of his way to write things in the most provoking way possible. He really has no regard for how a reader might interpret his text. Which is expected if he has some form of autism. I really think he should run everything he writes by someone who is more empathic. He is a public figure. He has a serious disability when it comes to public communication. He should take measures to deal with that. But I guess he's too proud? I truly think Stallmans intentions have been OK. But you can't just pretend like it doesn't matter how communications are received by the reader. That's the whole point of communication. It's a bit like driving with poor vision. You don't intend to crash, but it's kind of inevitable if you don't correct for your disability.
  - narag 6y ago
    From what I understand his actual views aren't that horrible. But it's almost as if he goes out of his way to write things in the most provoking way possible. Stallman is an activist, the kind of person that intentionally provokes outrage to make a point and bring issues to discussion. The bizarre part of all this saga is that he's being attacked by exactly the same kind of people using his very same tactics. It's like some of those Godzilla vs Kong movies. Honestly I don't find this funny. But I don't care about it either. I had not heard much about the FSF last decade.
  - zaarn 6y ago
    While I agree that part of the outrage is probably a bit over the top, I think it's exactly comments like the on linked in the GP that are a good reason why RMS shouldn't be in a top leadership role. That and plenty of other things like him blocking improvements in GCC, Emacs and other GNU projects merely by being able to veto plenty of things outright. This is not the look you want to present to the public if you're the FSF.
  - m12k 6y ago
    > Which is expected if he has some form of autism. There's something ironic about a lynch mob calling someone ableist because he's got autistic communication issues.
- simion314 6y ago
  I don't agree with him but he always has a mathematical way of thinking about things, using logic. In contrast with others that are the reverse, they assume that porn/violent video games, other legal stuff might have an effect so then they argue only based on assumption on removing freedoms. So personally I think when we want to remove a freedom we try our best to prove that we are doing something that has a significant good effect(I am speaking in general).
- tremon 6y ago
  On the other hand, when children can get themselves and their friends on sex offender lists for privately sharing pictures of themselves, there is undeniably something wrong with the laws in question.
- longyap 6y ago
  likely a risk of being amplify of false accusation. last time there's a dude being false accuse of rape and throw into jail for 10 years
- torthrowaway999 6y ago
  Is there anything specific that you disagree with? I personally find his comment totally sensible.
- coddle-hark 6y ago
  I don't understand the need to "move past" this. It's a personal opinion expressed on his blog, without much context, not even tangentially related to his professional work. Is it reasonable to expect public figures to be 100% agreeable? I don't think so. In fact I think we'd all be a lot better off if we just stopped judging these peoples' character altogether. Shitty people can do good things. Why would we want to stop them?
- globular-toast 6y ago
  Probably because this particular issue short-circuits your ability to think. You could perhaps try to form an argument against his comments. But what's more likely is you'll just stand there, mouth agape, shocked, and maybe break out the canned rhetoric like "think of the children" etc.
PurpleFoxy 6y ago
Aprox 10 minutes before dang sees this and deletes it
- meribold 6y ago
  He stated at <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26713636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26713636> that it's users and not moderators that are flagging all posts related to RMS. He even said he'd be willing to disable flagging on a somewhat neutral submission, if I'm reading his comment correctly.
  - quotemstr 6y ago
    "Will no one rid me of this troublesome post?"
vmception 6y ago
Ok I’m missing a key part of this: Why should I care about this recurring drama? Is the leadership of the FSF even important? I’ve gone my whole life without needing to follow board composition of the FSF.
- PurpleFoxy 6y ago
  Following on from that, what does the FSF even do now other than making cringe infographics and some weird animated series about proprietary software being supervillains?
- spoonjim 6y ago
  Having a party on your “side” of an opinion spectrum that is very extreme — like the FSF under Stallman - is important for maintaining the Overton window of acceptability where you want it. If you want the minimum wage raised to $10, Bernie Sanders arguing for $15, and bringing people into that worldview, helps you. Such has been the FSF for open source especially in its nascent days with corporate interests still thinking they could kill it.
  - propertymagnate 6y ago
    Great comment - the extremes of the overton window determine what is acceptable as the middle. And the middle is crucial, as we are, as people, almost always framing issues as having two sides, and compromising to something in that middle. Without one of those extremes including your own position or including it and being further left/right, no compromise will ever happen that includes what you want.
  - vmception 6y ago
    so from what I can tell, people tried node-based "cancelling" where they try to ostracize people and organizations associated with the target person, and it failed and this is the tail-end of that saga the FSF folded in the past, and has since called the weakness of this vendetta and particular approach, and it would be redundant to even rehash the particular comments Stallman has said or evaluate his leadership people have tried tying morality to prosperity, and there is no reality where that is related okay, anyway
spoonjim 6y ago
You know what I think is the craziest thing about this whole saga: Stallman’s email just accepts, as fact, that Minsky had sex with an underage girl. With one accusation and a dead defendant, why would anyone make this assumption without further corroboration? Did Stallman know it was true or was he just assuming it was?
- why_Mr_Anderson 6y ago
  Ever heard about concept of 'friends' or even 'close friends'?
  - spoonjim 6y ago
    Can you state your point rather than obliquely suggesting it?
- mpweiher 6y ago
  Literally says so: "Let’s presume that was true"
  - spoonjim 6y ago
    Yes, but... why? If you accuse my wife of stomping a puppy to death I would say “she didn’t do that” or “that is a baseless accusation without a shred of evidence, and would be deeply out of character for her.” I wouldn’t say “let’s assume that was true. The puppy must have been biting her.”
AndyMcConachie 6y ago
RMS is a terrible spokesperson for free software. I wish the FSF could just fire him and move on. How do I know he's a terrible spokesperson? Because we're talking about him and not about free software. It's that simple. I want the FSF to focus on free software and I want the discourse around the FSF to be about free software. Not RMS.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- secondcoming 6y ago
  I sure he'd rather that he wasn't the topic of discussion. If some people on HN started talking about AndyMcConachie would that be justification enough for getting you kicked from HN?
- why_Mr_Anderson 6y ago
  But RMS is one of the main reasons why there is any free software in first place. Without his obsession, it would be long destroyed.
  - mavhc 6y ago
    Wernher von Braun is one of the main reasons why there is any space flight in the first place, without his obsession it would be much delayed. Doesn't make him a good person to lead NASA
  - dpatterbee 6y ago
    That sounds like an unrealistic claim. Do you think that once RMS is dead it's only a matter of time until the end of free software?
- lolc 6y ago
  > Because we're talking about him and not about free software. It's that simple. No it's not that simple. Because the other side of this is that we are talking about Free Software because of him, indluding his personality. Few people would stand up for this thankless job. Few people would have created and promoted the GPL. We are taling about RMS because some people decided to attack him unfairly. There may be people better suited for the job. But that is a different argument from the one you made.
junon 6y ago
> I think a good argument against RMS can be made, but the authors of the letter instead chose to incite as much outrage as possible at the cost of honesty and nuance. My thoughts exactly. I'm not defending RMS but the original letter was very clearly written in the key of "outrage".
- maest 6y ago
  > written in the key of "outrage". I've never seen that turn of phrase before, but I quite like it!
christmm 6y ago
SJW cancels another noble person
Zanni 6y ago
A critique of "A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS": the author claims that Stallman's transphobia is down to Stallman proposing a set of singular, gender-neutral pronouns other than 'they', 'their' and theirs'. Which Stallman indeed does, but if you read on, Stallman also says he'll flat out refuse to use someone's preferred pronouns if they disagree with his scheme. To overlook that in a critique of a critique is a massive oversight at best, it not outright disingenuous.
- outsomnia 6y ago
  ... and what's actually the problem with that stance that justifies what is being done to Stallman? It should be OK with everyone to be referred to by name and the set of generic English words that can be applied to anyone.
  - dpatterbee 6y ago
    The problem is that gender is a complicated social issue and not every transgender person wants to be thrown into an "other" category with their pronouns. Given how simple it is to use someone's preferred pronouns once they've been made clear to you, I don't see how it's a problem to do so.
    - insert_coin 6y ago
      This problem was created by trying to force people to say specific words. You try to force RMS to say some words? guess what, he will now try to force his words onto you. You don't agree? neither does he, great, just great. There is no difference here. It is no more valid for you to force language on others than it is for him to try and do it.
      - dpatterbee 6y ago
        Do you call people by their names? Seems like you're already forced to call people what they want you to. I believe there's a difference between asking people to refer to you by some identifier and whatever nonsense you're equating it to.
nabla9 6y ago
People should call for a neutral investigation, not for a mob justice.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
henrikschroder 6y ago
> The primary author of the open letter, Molly de Blanc, writes on her personal blog: > > There is no space to argue over whether a comment was transphobic – if it hurt a trans person then it is transphobic and it is unacceptable. Ah, postmodernism! Where the words are made up, and intent doesn't matter!
- maweki 6y ago
  In a sphere where we usually choose our names and expect other people to use them, instead of what's written in some official document, I don't see how chosen pronouns are any different. Honestly, it's not hard to call people what they want to be called. You might feel the line between innocent mistake and maliciousness has not been crossed. Other people do disagree.
  - junon 6y ago
    Because pronouns are ingrained into our language centers; we automatically and subconsciously classify people based on physical appearance and derive pronouns from that. For better or worse, it's part of our programming. Names, however, are not. We've learned names are not connected to any physical trait, and thus we process and store them differently. Expecting the entirety of humanity to simply "unlearn" language is a huge stretch - especially for those with gendered languages (English is not a gendered language). Further, the fact that pronouns "hurt" trans people is largely subjective - there is a very large portion of the trans community that would disagree with that assertion. Words are words. Perhaps we should stop placing as much weight in them, fullstop.
    - KingOfCoders 6y ago
      Exactly. Well ... no. People are called Baker because some ancestor was a baker. Then over time the link from the name to the occupation got lost. Just as we might have "derive[d] pronouns from that" but are currently on the same way as with "Baker" - removing the word from it's physical beginnings. Then in the end words are a tool and not a thing by their own - as evidenced that you can hardly read a 500 year old text - including your pronouns, that were different back then. If it helps - at least one party - communication to use different/new pronouns, this is where language will go.
tomxor 6y ago
At this point I think the most important thing is that mob rule is shown to not be the way. I don't know RMS, I don't even know much about RMS... but I have heard enough to know he's not the intolerant idiot he's been made out to be in these hateful letters. There are possibly other very reasonable criticisms for him being removed from his position, but the mob made that impossible to discuss now due to the overwhelming irreverent bias - so now they should be made to wait for a very long time.
- read_if_gay_ 6y ago
  > mob rule is shown to not be the way. I guess humanity just has to re-learn certain lessons every couple of generations.
- TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
  “I know nothing about the target, but he must be innocent!”
  - laingc 6y ago
    Yes, that should be our default assumption.
  - insert_coin 6y ago
    Isn't the core principle of the justice system great?
    - TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
      I was not aware that the justice system operated on the principle of “if I believe someone is innocent, I do not have to consider any of the evidence”.
      - insert_coin 6y ago
        That is not even near the same galaxy of what I wrote. But you do you.
simion314 6y ago
I am afraid to put my name/email/github id in support of RMS because some mob in future will draw incorrect equivalence with whatever they want like "you support RMS then you are an X " where X seems to be a pedo. I am also wondering how many GNU/FSF haters are participating in just because they prefer MIT/BSD and see GNU as a cancer eating at their money making scheme.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  > I am afraid to put my name/email/github id in support of RMS because some mob in future ... That's exactly what these totalitarian wokists aim for: to make people afraid to oppose them. The only way to stop it is not cave in to their absurd demands. Be strong, live without fear, and do the right thing.
  - junke 6y ago
    So: I’ll leave you with three more bits of evidence that things are more complex than the open letter would have you believe: 1. A competing letter in support of RMS exists and has accumulated considerably more signatures than the letter condemning RMS. 2. In response someone created a Chrome extension that marks repositories owned by a signatory of this support letter with red text on GitHub. 3. The announcement of this extension was welcomed with 394 likes on Twitter. Just tell us why is it bad again? There is a public repository, with people signing publicly. The plugin does not reveal any hidden information, the only thing it does is make it easier to find out if someone publicly supports RMS. If you look at outliers you may find individuals who equate signing the letter with being a pedo, but I have yet to see a major Twitter account implying so. For me it just means I might not get along with the person since they do not think RMS being in the board is an issue for FSF. Also, "the mob this", "the mob that", you can't just label people "mob" when you disagree with them. > That's exactly what these totalitarian wokists aim for: to make people afraid to oppose them. Look who is insulting people here and making assumptions. Please, be strong and talk freely, I don't care.
    - kstenerud 6y ago
lyu07282 6y ago
> RMS has (for some reason) tens of thousands of political notes on his website ready to be cherry-picked That would give me literally nightmares, I really don't understand people who write their opinions online (or sharing or liking of other peoples opinions) using their real name. It seems incredibly foolish. Even if you think you are woke enough, chances of getting cancelled in the future seem very high. I have this fear that I won't be able to find a job in the future because my absence online will be viewed with deep suspicion.
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
  You see, when he started doing this, the world was a different place. Also, he really believes it's important to fight for what he believes in.
- kstenerud 6y ago
  "If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged. " - Cardinal Richelieu
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  He clearly states that his opinions are his own, and do not represent GNU, FSF, or anything. The world there your private views might impact your work is a bad one, and everyone who values human rights and democracy must fight to make it safe to express your views.
  - KingOfCoders 6y ago
    Assume this: My open, but as a private person, opinion is that it's ok to steal money from my employer. Should I be CEO?
    - nec4b 6y ago
      And if you hold the same opinion just not in the open?
- 6y ago
christmm 6y ago
another win for the SJW Gestapo
Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
The 'open letter' language reeks with the odour of the Komsomol [1] assembly. It was a form of self-governance, where the missteped members were subjected to a court of their comrades, who unleashed their denunciation on the faulty offender, who had to stand in front of them in shame, listening to their dispraisals, and repent from his erroneous ways. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komsomol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komsomol
- f137 6y ago
  It looks as nobody would learn from others' mistakes. US will have to go through komsomol, purges, and gulag to finally understand what's going on now.
linuxdesktopfo 6y ago
Hopefully besides the China decoupling we also get an USA decoupling. You can have whatever cultural revolution you want but keep your -ism to yourself, please. I think in the darkest communist times there hasn't been such foaming mob rhetoric.
rStar 6y ago
> In response someone created a Chrome extension that marks repositories owned by a signatory of this support letter with red text on GitHub. why stop there? out with their tongues and off with their fingers, lest they continue to blaspheme.
revscat 6y ago
I am becoming increasingly skeptical whenever I read claims of transphobia being made. To be sure, there are those who seek to undermine the rights of transsexuals, and who seek to pass legislation accordingly. But at the same time I see issues like this one, or the one with J. K. Rowling, and it does not seem so clear cut at the least, and at the worst is bad faith sanctimony.
- TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
  JKR's writings are meant to seem reasonable to the lay person who does not know much about the topic. To understand criticism of them you need to develop a deeper understanding of the subject independent of what she wrote. Context is key. Something similar could be said about the topic of the OP. I think people are too quick to assume that criticisms are in bad faith when they are unfamiliar with the background.
mikaeluman 6y ago
> RMS has (for some reason) tens of thousands of political notes on his website ready to be cherry-picked It used to be quite okay to share your opinions, political or not, on your website. It they concern anything that is of importance, some people will find it disagreeable and even offensive. The fact that we are at a point where expressing this is somehow strange and it’s accepted that you can be subjected to cherry-picking and so should abstain from posting anything that might be considered controversial by some radical; That’s a horrible place for our society to be in. I’m glad the competing support letter has far more supporters. I’m tired but not surprised that we have to include politics in everything. Make software better instead.
- josteink 6y ago
  > That’s a horrible place for our society to be in. This is encouraged from early on in school these days with ideas like "safe spaces" where people can be "safe" from so called "micro aggressions" (basically having their own convictions challenged, even for valid reasons). It seems like just having common disagreements is considered inappropriate now, and the more opinions you express publicly, the more "micro-agressions" you must accept that you are imposing on others. And thus obviously you are terrible person and must be cancelled. And so comes the (now traditional) SJW witch-hunt. Whoever supports these ideas really needs to be considered the enemies of a healthy democracy, and their ideas needs to be constantly and publicly challenged.
DarkCrusader2 6y ago
> A competing letter in support of RMS exists and has accumulated considerably more signatures than the letter condemning RMS. > In response someone created a Chrome extension that marks repositories owned by a signatory of this support letter with red text on GitHub. This is incredible worrying. This is basically maintaining a repository of people with "incorrect" opinions. How long before such repositories are integrated in HR systems, tied to you identity for subscriptions/memberships. [1] You have to carry a tag of being not progressive enough across the internet? [1] https://twitter.com/kmlefranc/status/1221869659139366912 https://twitter.com/kmlefranc/status/1221869659139366912
- vidarh 6y ago
  Frankly, I wish there was a list of people using that Chrome extension, so they could face the same treatment they are giving others. Ultimately I think things like that extension will do more to drive people to sign the letter in support of RMS than deter people, because the signal it sends is to me far worse than anything RMS has been accused of.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- insert_coin 6y ago
  Freedom of speech has lost, freedom of thought is next and they are coming for it fast.
- krapp 6y ago
  It surprises me that so many people are outraged by a Chrome extension that highlights names - and does nothing more as far as I know - denouncing it with all of the righteous anger that Hacker News can muster (including wanting to blacklist anyone who contributed to the extension, and wanting to see everyone with progressive politics purged from free software entirely) yet no one seems too bothered when RMS supporters want to have Molly de Blanc arrested for simply writing a petition[0] to begin with. The hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance among Stallman's supporters never ceases to astonish. edit: fixed the link. [0]https://debian.community/molly-de-blanc-arrest-and-prosecution-for-cyberbullying/ https://debian.community/molly-de-blanc-arrest-and-prosecuti...
Glavnokoman 6y ago
"if it hurt a trans person then it is transphobic" But this is... plain stupid. What's her position again?
refraincomment 6y ago
You see totally different demographics between software design/development and the politics of software. In this letter I see names that have never done anything significant, yet they feel entitled to correct one of the forefathers of software development.
- globular-toast 6y ago
  That's because they are first and foremost victims. These people aren't interested in working and contributing to this field. They are interested in benefiting from it. Any successful endeavour will attract freeloaders like moths to a flame and that's exactly what we are seeing here.
Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
> in response someone created a Chrome extension that marks repositories owned by a signatory of this support letter with red text on GitHub Ok. I think I need this extension for Firefox, to know what software is written by decent people.
- s9w 6y ago
  https://github.com/sticks-stuff/highlight-RMS-supporters https://github.com/sticks-stuff/highlight-RMS-supporters
throwaway212223 6y ago
Using a throwaway ID for reasons that have been stated in this thread over and over. You know what stuff like this makes me think, as someone in Europe? Between Trumpists and SJWs/cancel culture the only sane thing to do is have as little to do with the US as possible. That means not depending on organizations located in the US or with a US majority membership, for one. All you americans are doing is further isolating yourselves from the rest of the world. I thought that was the trumpist line, but cancel culture is getting as good as it as they are.
mehdix 6y ago
Why this post disappeared from the home page?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mehdix 6y ago
This reminded me of the Opal incident: https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941. Regardless of the letter, I have a little story to add. I first heard of RMS back when I was living in an isolated land on this planet (there are only a few of them). A self-made hacker, which was to some extent my mentor told of his communications with him, since he was active in some GNU projects and RMS had assisted him with publishing his work. Not much, but it was a positive move in support of a young man in a remote place.
KingOfCoders 6y ago
So RMS thinks "having" child pornography is no harm done to the child, but digitally "having" GPL code in your own proprietary code does harm to the author.
- torthrowaway998 6y ago
  I don't believe that I have ever seen RMS using this argument regarding GPL.
  - KingOfCoders 6y ago
    So I can take GPLed code (make child pornography), relicense it under MIT (copy it to the internet), someone takes it (copy it from the internet), includes it into his own ("have it") and sells it closed source?
cbradford 6y ago
Molly de Blanc must be cancelled and removed from all open source projects
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
selfishgene 6y ago
Both MIT and Harvard have admitted to helping Jeffrey Epstein avoid prosecution on federal racketeering charges for the sex-trafficking of minors after they were exposed by whistle-blowers at both of these institutions. I'm still not sure why people consider it appropriate to exclude someone like Stallman from serving on the Board of the FSF while continuing to allow Mr. Rafael Reif, for example, to remain president of MIT after sending a personally signed "thank-you note" to one of the most notorious alleged sex-traffickers and convicted child-rapists in US history: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei... Nor would it be any more appropriate to allow Mr. Seth Lloyd back onto the MIT campus with just a slap on the wrist: https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op... Or Mr. Martin Nowak for that matter either: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio... On the subject of Nowak's role in aiding and abetting a child rapist, this hacker news thread is worth reading again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 So why has nobody drafted petitions to cancel Rafael "Thank You So Much Mr. Epstein -- And Don't Forget to Show My Letter to Federal Prosecutors" Reif, Benedict "Epstein is an Ideal Donor for Harvard" Gross, Alan "Dershbag" Dershowitz, Martin "Punishment Serves No Noble Purpose" Nowak, Steven "Using the Internet to Entice a Minor into Prostitution is A-Okay" Pinker, Seth "So What If I Make Female Undergraduates at MIT Feel Uncomfortable" Lloyd, Neri "Epstein was Always a Reliable Supporter of Israel" Oxman, Frank "I Never Saw any Girls that were Underage" Wilczek, and all of the other pedophilia-tolerating two-faced phonies that attended EDGE Foundation dinners hosted by the convicted child rapist and/or visited him on "Pedophile Isle," where FBI reportedly found instruction manuals that Mr. Epstein had ordered on Amazon that describe how to create a so-called "sex slave," in addition to video tapes containing child pornography that he allegedly recorded using secret cameras that were installed throughout his various residences? Mr. Stallman blaming his "being on the spectrum" for all of the troubling statements cataloged on the website cited below may not entirely excuse him for making them since there is no evidence that someone on the spectrum is more likely than the general population to hold similar views on child rape: https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman But the most important question today that Mr. Stallman still needs to address directly, because many of his critics on this issue continue to hold him in the highest regard for his role in advancing the free software movement, is a very frank one: Were his remarks in support of pedophilia designed to persuade Mr. Epstein to donate part of his $500 million estate to the Free Software Foundation, much like he observed role-models such as MIT president Rafael Reif do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Reif sent Mr. Epstein a personally signed thank-you note for his donation to the Media Lab, or colleagues like Martin Nowak do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Nowak created a web page on a university website and an office in his department for a convicted child-rapist in exchange for tens of millions of dollars in donations that were promised to his academic program at Harvard and hundreds of millions of dollars in donations, often laundered through Epstein's fellow billionaire pedophile friends like Les Wexner, Glenn Dubin, and Leon Black, to Harvard University, where Mr. Nowak is a professor? I'm not entirely convinced by the naysayers on this one yet, but Stallman is most deserving of the benefit of doubt thus far, and not because of his autism, but rather because of all of his contributions to free software in spite of it. On the other hand, many of the other Epstein co-conspirators cited above who directly accepted money from the convicted child-rapist as a form of reputation laundering for an individual who they knew, or should have known, was about to face racketeering charges in federal court for the sex-trafficking of hundreds of underage girls over the past 30 years deserve to spend some serious time in the same jail cell where Mr. Epstein (allegedly) killed himself because he was too much of a coward to stand trial for all of the crimes that he knew he had committed.

234 points by meribold 6y ago

This is a refreshing, level-headed text, signed by the real name of its individual author. It is not intended to stir the mob but as a kind path towards understanding; I like it.

thinkingemote 6y ago
It's a bit calmer than other defenses. The attack letter is an attack but because it's vicious and misleading doesn't mean all criticism becomes invalid. But it is the mob. Damned if you do and dammed if you dont. (Don't be surprised if HN users flag this submission however because I think they don't seem anything new)
- simion314 6y ago
  >(Don't be surprised if HN users flag this submission however because I think they don't seem anything new) They flagged it again, fuck all the idiots that flag stuff with the intention to hide it. I don't remember ever flagging stuff even if I see a lot of garbage , but yeah better to see some old stuff about Rust on first page or I am waiting some article about Covid to appear again(like Covid is more on topic then RMS for some reason)

yur3i__ 6y ago

As much as I like rms, I find it very difficult to move past his comments on child pornography[1]. [1] https://stallman.org/notes/2011-mar-jun.html#4_June_2011_(Border_Searches) https://stallman.org/notes/2011-mar-jun.html#4_June_2011_(Bo...

joana035 6y ago
Since the sky is blue police has been using CP as an excuse to break encryption, search electronic devices, etc. RMS is not wrong.
- yur3i__ 6y ago
  That's not really the part I have an issue with, its more the assertion that child pornography "does not hurt anyone".
  - joana035 6y ago
    You are taking his arguments out of context. Everything out of context will sound strange.
    - KingOfCoders 6y ago
      Because there has been this "out of context" argument used several times in this discussion, and I don't understand it: Can you explain to me how the context of [1] and [4] makes [2] and [3] - "is having that photo is not hurting everyone" - sound different than without the context? "[1] This "child pornography" might be a photo of yourself or your lover that the two of you shared. [2] It might be an image of a sexually mature teenager that any normal adult would find attractive. What's heinous about having such a photo? [3] But even when it is uncontroversial to call the subject depicted a "child", that is no excuse for censorship. Having a photo or drawing does not hurt anyone, so and if you or I think it is disgusting, that is no excuse for censorship. [4] The government will invent an unlimited number of opportunities to censor us and search us if we grant the legitimacy of its all-purpose excuses for doing so."
      - simion314 6y ago
        Maybe if you and your girlfriend are 17 , she sends you a picture, then next day you are 18 but her picture is of a 17 years old so you are a criminal now. So make CP illegal, find the criminals if you can, stop the commerce with such material , my paranoia is that I could be setup by police, or by someone that does not like me or even by a fucking troll. In today world such an accusation can destroy your life.
        loup-vaillant 6y ago
why_Mr_Anderson 6y ago
If a 16 years old girl sends nude photo her 16 year old boyfriend in Germany, it's fine. If she does the same in US, he's pedophile. This is what RMS was talking about.
- yur3i__ 6y ago
  >But even when it is uncontroversial to call the subject depicted a "child", that is no excuse for censorship. Having a photo or drawing does not hurt anyone
  - gnomewascool 6y ago
    Yes, the vast majority of people, including me, would disagree with that. However, why is somebody holding these opinions a show-stopper? One could argue that that's because in many cases somebody holding these opinions is a "dog whistle" for the person actually being a paedophile. In the case of RMS, though, we have no evidence that he actually is a paedophile, despite him being pretty thoroughly scrutinised over the years. We also know that he has a need to question everything and write about where he disagrees with society, which he presents in excruciating detail on his website, so it's not that he has some sort of fixation on this topic. I'd argue that in an ideal society we should encourage thoughtfully heterodox people, since once in a while they'll invent something revolutionary like free software and copyleft, while them also sometimes holding some very weird opinions is not much of a cost. In the non-ideal real world, once RMS came up with his revolutionary ideas, he probably should have stopped talking about his most fringe ideas, so his resignation as president of the FSF, for instance, had been sensible and over-due.
- truculent 6y ago
  That is the most generous possible interpretation, and frankly, I do not think it's supported by the actually linked text. The only line that could be interpreted in that way would be: > This "child pornography" might be a photo of yourself or your lover that the two of you shared. And even then, it is ambiguous.
- Toutouxc 6y ago
  Is it fine in Germany? I believe that over here in the Czech Republic it's the same pedophile story. You can literally have a bunch of 15 year olds having hardcore bdsm group sex, but they're criminals the moment someone snaps a photo of a nipple.
henearkr 6y ago
He seems genuinely ignorant (to his defense) that those are not just still pictures, images, "doing no harm", but that they have a story, they have been taken at some point, sometimes under duress, and then that some people are paying to get them, so it's a whole economics, and it's powerful enough to crush the weak at the bottom end, including non-consentant enslaved children. Then again, maybe what should be prohibited and punished is the sale and the buy, rather than just the possession. But is it technically feasible?
Toutouxc 6y ago
I don't find it difficult at all, because the way he sees it, what he says is strictly logically true. Possession of CP material does not hurt anyone. The fact that people who want to possess (and are willing to pay for) CP material are a huge reason for CP material to be created by whatever means available (that's the part that hurts people) seems to be lost on him. His ideas on free software and freedom in general are certainly noble and inspiring, but it's like he went a hundred steps too far in simplifying everything.
- KingOfCoders 6y ago
  Me having kicked you doesn't hurt anyone - the act of kicking you does hurt. So after I have kicked you, and you no longer feel pain, no harm done? I'm stealing your lunch and the next day you have a new lunch and are no longer hungry, no harm done? I think the act can't be seperated from the result - this is were people go wrong.
  - McSinyx 6y ago
    You missed the ease of digital replication: one needs not participate in a sexual act involving children to replicate child pornography. It's not like it's a healthy thing to consume such material, but the distinction must be made to avoid the concept being abused by digital publishers who think one sharing an ebook with a friend would cause lost in their revenue.
    - KingOfCoders 6y ago
      If I steal an apple from you and grow more apples from it and give them away, there is no difference to the act of stealing your apple and eating it. As a side note: RMS seams to be totally against "stealing" digital GPLed code.
      - torthrowaway999 6y ago
        >If I steal an apple from you and grow more apples from it and give them away, there is no difference to the act of stealing your apple and eating it. Certainly, but we talk about digital good here, stealing the first apple harms me (unless if I was not going to use it regardless), copying it however does not. >RMS seams to be totally against "stealing" digital GPLed code. Please explain what you mean by stealing here. He is against taking GPLed code, modifying it, compiling it, and then distributing the binary without distributing your modifications. He has no problem with selling the application/code. He has no problem with keeping the modifications to yourself as long as you do not share the binary. He has no problem with distributing the unmodified binary and/or code.
audunw 6y ago
From what I understand his actual views aren't that horrible. But it's almost as if he goes out of his way to write things in the most provoking way possible. He really has no regard for how a reader might interpret his text. Which is expected if he has some form of autism. I really think he should run everything he writes by someone who is more empathic. He is a public figure. He has a serious disability when it comes to public communication. He should take measures to deal with that. But I guess he's too proud? I truly think Stallmans intentions have been OK. But you can't just pretend like it doesn't matter how communications are received by the reader. That's the whole point of communication. It's a bit like driving with poor vision. You don't intend to crash, but it's kind of inevitable if you don't correct for your disability.
- narag 6y ago
  From what I understand his actual views aren't that horrible. But it's almost as if he goes out of his way to write things in the most provoking way possible. Stallman is an activist, the kind of person that intentionally provokes outrage to make a point and bring issues to discussion. The bizarre part of all this saga is that he's being attacked by exactly the same kind of people using his very same tactics. It's like some of those Godzilla vs Kong movies. Honestly I don't find this funny. But I don't care about it either. I had not heard much about the FSF last decade.
- zaarn 6y ago
  While I agree that part of the outrage is probably a bit over the top, I think it's exactly comments like the on linked in the GP that are a good reason why RMS shouldn't be in a top leadership role. That and plenty of other things like him blocking improvements in GCC, Emacs and other GNU projects merely by being able to veto plenty of things outright. This is not the look you want to present to the public if you're the FSF.
- m12k 6y ago
  > Which is expected if he has some form of autism. There's something ironic about a lynch mob calling someone ableist because he's got autistic communication issues.
simion314 6y ago
I don't agree with him but he always has a mathematical way of thinking about things, using logic. In contrast with others that are the reverse, they assume that porn/violent video games, other legal stuff might have an effect so then they argue only based on assumption on removing freedoms. So personally I think when we want to remove a freedom we try our best to prove that we are doing something that has a significant good effect(I am speaking in general).
tremon 6y ago
On the other hand, when children can get themselves and their friends on sex offender lists for privately sharing pictures of themselves, there is undeniably something wrong with the laws in question.
longyap 6y ago
likely a risk of being amplify of false accusation. last time there's a dude being false accuse of rape and throw into jail for 10 years
torthrowaway999 6y ago
Is there anything specific that you disagree with? I personally find his comment totally sensible.
coddle-hark 6y ago
I don't understand the need to "move past" this. It's a personal opinion expressed on his blog, without much context, not even tangentially related to his professional work. Is it reasonable to expect public figures to be 100% agreeable? I don't think so. In fact I think we'd all be a lot better off if we just stopped judging these peoples' character altogether. Shitty people can do good things. Why would we want to stop them?
globular-toast 6y ago
Probably because this particular issue short-circuits your ability to think. You could perhaps try to form an argument against his comments. But what's more likely is you'll just stand there, mouth agape, shocked, and maybe break out the canned rhetoric like "think of the children" etc.

PurpleFoxy 6y ago

Aprox 10 minutes before dang sees this and deletes it

meribold 6y ago
He stated at <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26713636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26713636> that it's users and not moderators that are flagging all posts related to RMS. He even said he'd be willing to disable flagging on a somewhat neutral submission, if I'm reading his comment correctly.
- quotemstr 6y ago
  "Will no one rid me of this troublesome post?"

vmception 6y ago

Ok I’m missing a key part of this: Why should I care about this recurring drama? Is the leadership of the FSF even important? I’ve gone my whole life without needing to follow board composition of the FSF.

PurpleFoxy 6y ago
Following on from that, what does the FSF even do now other than making cringe infographics and some weird animated series about proprietary software being supervillains?
spoonjim 6y ago
Having a party on your “side” of an opinion spectrum that is very extreme — like the FSF under Stallman - is important for maintaining the Overton window of acceptability where you want it. If you want the minimum wage raised to $10, Bernie Sanders arguing for $15, and bringing people into that worldview, helps you. Such has been the FSF for open source especially in its nascent days with corporate interests still thinking they could kill it.
- propertymagnate 6y ago
  Great comment - the extremes of the overton window determine what is acceptable as the middle. And the middle is crucial, as we are, as people, almost always framing issues as having two sides, and compromising to something in that middle. Without one of those extremes including your own position or including it and being further left/right, no compromise will ever happen that includes what you want.
- vmception 6y ago
  so from what I can tell, people tried node-based "cancelling" where they try to ostracize people and organizations associated with the target person, and it failed and this is the tail-end of that saga the FSF folded in the past, and has since called the weakness of this vendetta and particular approach, and it would be redundant to even rehash the particular comments Stallman has said or evaluate his leadership people have tried tying morality to prosperity, and there is no reality where that is related okay, anyway

spoonjim 6y ago

You know what I think is the craziest thing about this whole saga: Stallman’s email just accepts, as fact, that Minsky had sex with an underage girl. With one accusation and a dead defendant, why would anyone make this assumption without further corroboration? Did Stallman know it was true or was he just assuming it was?

why_Mr_Anderson 6y ago
Ever heard about concept of 'friends' or even 'close friends'?
- spoonjim 6y ago
  Can you state your point rather than obliquely suggesting it?
mpweiher 6y ago
Literally says so: "Let’s presume that was true"
- spoonjim 6y ago
  Yes, but... why? If you accuse my wife of stomping a puppy to death I would say “she didn’t do that” or “that is a baseless accusation without a shred of evidence, and would be deeply out of character for her.” I wouldn’t say “let’s assume that was true. The puppy must have been biting her.”

AndyMcConachie 6y ago

RMS is a terrible spokesperson for free software. I wish the FSF could just fire him and move on. How do I know he's a terrible spokesperson? Because we're talking about him and not about free software. It's that simple. I want the FSF to focus on free software and I want the discourse around the FSF to be about free software. Not RMS.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
secondcoming 6y ago
I sure he'd rather that he wasn't the topic of discussion. If some people on HN started talking about AndyMcConachie would that be justification enough for getting you kicked from HN?
why_Mr_Anderson 6y ago
But RMS is one of the main reasons why there is any free software in first place. Without his obsession, it would be long destroyed.
- mavhc 6y ago
  Wernher von Braun is one of the main reasons why there is any space flight in the first place, without his obsession it would be much delayed. Doesn't make him a good person to lead NASA
- dpatterbee 6y ago
  That sounds like an unrealistic claim. Do you think that once RMS is dead it's only a matter of time until the end of free software?
lolc 6y ago
> Because we're talking about him and not about free software. It's that simple. No it's not that simple. Because the other side of this is that we are talking about Free Software because of him, indluding his personality. Few people would stand up for this thankless job. Few people would have created and promoted the GPL. We are taling about RMS because some people decided to attack him unfairly. There may be people better suited for the job. But that is a different argument from the one you made.

junon 6y ago

> I think a good argument against RMS can be made, but the authors of the letter instead chose to incite as much outrage as possible at the cost of honesty and nuance. My thoughts exactly. I'm not defending RMS but the original letter was very clearly written in the key of "outrage".

maest 6y ago
> written in the key of "outrage". I've never seen that turn of phrase before, but I quite like it!

christmm 6y ago

SJW cancels another noble person

Zanni 6y ago

A critique of "A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS": the author claims that Stallman's transphobia is down to Stallman proposing a set of singular, gender-neutral pronouns other than 'they', 'their' and theirs'. Which Stallman indeed does, but if you read on, Stallman also says he'll flat out refuse to use someone's preferred pronouns if they disagree with his scheme. To overlook that in a critique of a critique is a massive oversight at best, it not outright disingenuous.

outsomnia 6y ago
... and what's actually the problem with that stance that justifies what is being done to Stallman? It should be OK with everyone to be referred to by name and the set of generic English words that can be applied to anyone.
- dpatterbee 6y ago
  The problem is that gender is a complicated social issue and not every transgender person wants to be thrown into an "other" category with their pronouns. Given how simple it is to use someone's preferred pronouns once they've been made clear to you, I don't see how it's a problem to do so.
  - insert_coin 6y ago
    This problem was created by trying to force people to say specific words. You try to force RMS to say some words? guess what, he will now try to force his words onto you. You don't agree? neither does he, great, just great. There is no difference here. It is no more valid for you to force language on others than it is for him to try and do it.
    - dpatterbee 6y ago
      Do you call people by their names? Seems like you're already forced to call people what they want you to. I believe there's a difference between asking people to refer to you by some identifier and whatever nonsense you're equating it to.

nabla9 6y ago

People should call for a neutral investigation, not for a mob justice.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

henrikschroder 6y ago

> The primary author of the open letter, Molly de Blanc, writes on her personal blog: > > There is no space to argue over whether a comment was transphobic – if it hurt a trans person then it is transphobic and it is unacceptable. Ah, postmodernism! Where the words are made up, and intent doesn't matter!

maweki 6y ago
In a sphere where we usually choose our names and expect other people to use them, instead of what's written in some official document, I don't see how chosen pronouns are any different. Honestly, it's not hard to call people what they want to be called. You might feel the line between innocent mistake and maliciousness has not been crossed. Other people do disagree.
- junon 6y ago
  Because pronouns are ingrained into our language centers; we automatically and subconsciously classify people based on physical appearance and derive pronouns from that. For better or worse, it's part of our programming. Names, however, are not. We've learned names are not connected to any physical trait, and thus we process and store them differently. Expecting the entirety of humanity to simply "unlearn" language is a huge stretch - especially for those with gendered languages (English is not a gendered language). Further, the fact that pronouns "hurt" trans people is largely subjective - there is a very large portion of the trans community that would disagree with that assertion. Words are words. Perhaps we should stop placing as much weight in them, fullstop.
  - KingOfCoders 6y ago
    Exactly. Well ... no. People are called Baker because some ancestor was a baker. Then over time the link from the name to the occupation got lost. Just as we might have "derive[d] pronouns from that" but are currently on the same way as with "Baker" - removing the word from it's physical beginnings. Then in the end words are a tool and not a thing by their own - as evidenced that you can hardly read a 500 year old text - including your pronouns, that were different back then. If it helps - at least one party - communication to use different/new pronouns, this is where language will go.

tomxor 6y ago

At this point I think the most important thing is that mob rule is shown to not be the way. I don't know RMS, I don't even know much about RMS... but I have heard enough to know he's not the intolerant idiot he's been made out to be in these hateful letters. There are possibly other very reasonable criticisms for him being removed from his position, but the mob made that impossible to discuss now due to the overwhelming irreverent bias - so now they should be made to wait for a very long time.

read_if_gay_ 6y ago
> mob rule is shown to not be the way. I guess humanity just has to re-learn certain lessons every couple of generations.
TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
“I know nothing about the target, but he must be innocent!”
- laingc 6y ago
  Yes, that should be our default assumption.
- insert_coin 6y ago
  Isn't the core principle of the justice system great?
  - TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
    I was not aware that the justice system operated on the principle of “if I believe someone is innocent, I do not have to consider any of the evidence”.
    - insert_coin 6y ago
      That is not even near the same galaxy of what I wrote. But you do you.

simion314 6y ago

I am afraid to put my name/email/github id in support of RMS because some mob in future will draw incorrect equivalence with whatever they want like "you support RMS then you are an X " where X seems to be a pedo. I am also wondering how many GNU/FSF haters are participating in just because they prefer MIT/BSD and see GNU as a cancer eating at their money making scheme.

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
> I am afraid to put my name/email/github id in support of RMS because some mob in future ... That's exactly what these totalitarian wokists aim for: to make people afraid to oppose them. The only way to stop it is not cave in to their absurd demands. Be strong, live without fear, and do the right thing.
- junke 6y ago
  So: I’ll leave you with three more bits of evidence that things are more complex than the open letter would have you believe: 1. A competing letter in support of RMS exists and has accumulated considerably more signatures than the letter condemning RMS. 2. In response someone created a Chrome extension that marks repositories owned by a signatory of this support letter with red text on GitHub. 3. The announcement of this extension was welcomed with 394 likes on Twitter. Just tell us why is it bad again? There is a public repository, with people signing publicly. The plugin does not reveal any hidden information, the only thing it does is make it easier to find out if someone publicly supports RMS. If you look at outliers you may find individuals who equate signing the letter with being a pedo, but I have yet to see a major Twitter account implying so. For me it just means I might not get along with the person since they do not think RMS being in the board is an issue for FSF. Also, "the mob this", "the mob that", you can't just label people "mob" when you disagree with them. > That's exactly what these totalitarian wokists aim for: to make people afraid to oppose them. Look who is insulting people here and making assumptions. Please, be strong and talk freely, I don't care.
  - kstenerud 6y ago

lyu07282 6y ago

> RMS has (for some reason) tens of thousands of political notes on his website ready to be cherry-picked That would give me literally nightmares, I really don't understand people who write their opinions online (or sharing or liking of other peoples opinions) using their real name. It seems incredibly foolish. Even if you think you are woke enough, chances of getting cancelled in the future seem very high. I have this fear that I won't be able to find a job in the future because my absence online will be viewed with deep suspicion.

dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
You see, when he started doing this, the world was a different place. Also, he really believes it's important to fight for what he believes in.
kstenerud 6y ago
"If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged. " - Cardinal Richelieu
Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
He clearly states that his opinions are his own, and do not represent GNU, FSF, or anything. The world there your private views might impact your work is a bad one, and everyone who values human rights and democracy must fight to make it safe to express your views.
- KingOfCoders 6y ago
  Assume this: My open, but as a private person, opinion is that it's ok to steal money from my employer. Should I be CEO?
  - nec4b 6y ago
    And if you hold the same opinion just not in the open?
6y ago

christmm 6y ago

another win for the SJW Gestapo

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago

The 'open letter' language reeks with the odour of the Komsomol [1] assembly. It was a form of self-governance, where the missteped members were subjected to a court of their comrades, who unleashed their denunciation on the faulty offender, who had to stand in front of them in shame, listening to their dispraisals, and repent from his erroneous ways. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komsomol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komsomol

f137 6y ago
It looks as nobody would learn from others' mistakes. US will have to go through komsomol, purges, and gulag to finally understand what's going on now.

linuxdesktopfo 6y ago

Hopefully besides the China decoupling we also get an USA decoupling. You can have whatever cultural revolution you want but keep your -ism to yourself, please. I think in the darkest communist times there hasn't been such foaming mob rhetoric.

rStar 6y ago

> In response someone created a Chrome extension that marks repositories owned by a signatory of this support letter with red text on GitHub. why stop there? out with their tongues and off with their fingers, lest they continue to blaspheme.

revscat 6y ago

I am becoming increasingly skeptical whenever I read claims of transphobia being made. To be sure, there are those who seek to undermine the rights of transsexuals, and who seek to pass legislation accordingly. But at the same time I see issues like this one, or the one with J. K. Rowling, and it does not seem so clear cut at the least, and at the worst is bad faith sanctimony.

TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
JKR's writings are meant to seem reasonable to the lay person who does not know much about the topic. To understand criticism of them you need to develop a deeper understanding of the subject independent of what she wrote. Context is key. Something similar could be said about the topic of the OP. I think people are too quick to assume that criticisms are in bad faith when they are unfamiliar with the background.

mikaeluman 6y ago

> RMS has (for some reason) tens of thousands of political notes on his website ready to be cherry-picked It used to be quite okay to share your opinions, political or not, on your website. It they concern anything that is of importance, some people will find it disagreeable and even offensive. The fact that we are at a point where expressing this is somehow strange and it’s accepted that you can be subjected to cherry-picking and so should abstain from posting anything that might be considered controversial by some radical; That’s a horrible place for our society to be in. I’m glad the competing support letter has far more supporters. I’m tired but not surprised that we have to include politics in everything. Make software better instead.

josteink 6y ago
> That’s a horrible place for our society to be in. This is encouraged from early on in school these days with ideas like "safe spaces" where people can be "safe" from so called "micro aggressions" (basically having their own convictions challenged, even for valid reasons). It seems like just having common disagreements is considered inappropriate now, and the more opinions you express publicly, the more "micro-agressions" you must accept that you are imposing on others. And thus obviously you are terrible person and must be cancelled. And so comes the (now traditional) SJW witch-hunt. Whoever supports these ideas really needs to be considered the enemies of a healthy democracy, and their ideas needs to be constantly and publicly challenged.

DarkCrusader2 6y ago

> A competing letter in support of RMS exists and has accumulated considerably more signatures than the letter condemning RMS. > In response someone created a Chrome extension that marks repositories owned by a signatory of this support letter with red text on GitHub. This is incredible worrying. This is basically maintaining a repository of people with "incorrect" opinions. How long before such repositories are integrated in HR systems, tied to you identity for subscriptions/memberships. [1] You have to carry a tag of being not progressive enough across the internet? [1] https://twitter.com/kmlefranc/status/1221869659139366912 https://twitter.com/kmlefranc/status/1221869659139366912

vidarh 6y ago
Frankly, I wish there was a list of people using that Chrome extension, so they could face the same treatment they are giving others. Ultimately I think things like that extension will do more to drive people to sign the letter in support of RMS than deter people, because the signal it sends is to me far worse than anything RMS has been accused of.
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insert_coin 6y ago
Freedom of speech has lost, freedom of thought is next and they are coming for it fast.
krapp 6y ago
It surprises me that so many people are outraged by a Chrome extension that highlights names - and does nothing more as far as I know - denouncing it with all of the righteous anger that Hacker News can muster (including wanting to blacklist anyone who contributed to the extension, and wanting to see everyone with progressive politics purged from free software entirely) yet no one seems too bothered when RMS supporters want to have Molly de Blanc arrested for simply writing a petition[0] to begin with. The hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance among Stallman's supporters never ceases to astonish. edit: fixed the link. [0]https://debian.community/molly-de-blanc-arrest-and-prosecution-for-cyberbullying/ https://debian.community/molly-de-blanc-arrest-and-prosecuti...

Glavnokoman 6y ago

"if it hurt a trans person then it is transphobic" But this is... plain stupid. What's her position again?

refraincomment 6y ago

You see totally different demographics between software design/development and the politics of software. In this letter I see names that have never done anything significant, yet they feel entitled to correct one of the forefathers of software development.

globular-toast 6y ago
That's because they are first and foremost victims. These people aren't interested in working and contributing to this field. They are interested in benefiting from it. Any successful endeavour will attract freeloaders like moths to a flame and that's exactly what we are seeing here.

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago

> in response someone created a Chrome extension that marks repositories owned by a signatory of this support letter with red text on GitHub Ok. I think I need this extension for Firefox, to know what software is written by decent people.

s9w 6y ago
https://github.com/sticks-stuff/highlight-RMS-supporters https://github.com/sticks-stuff/highlight-RMS-supporters

throwaway212223 6y ago

Using a throwaway ID for reasons that have been stated in this thread over and over. You know what stuff like this makes me think, as someone in Europe? Between Trumpists and SJWs/cancel culture the only sane thing to do is have as little to do with the US as possible. That means not depending on organizations located in the US or with a US majority membership, for one. All you americans are doing is further isolating yourselves from the rest of the world. I thought that was the trumpist line, but cancel culture is getting as good as it as they are.

mehdix 6y ago

Why this post disappeared from the home page?

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mehdix 6y ago

This reminded me of the Opal incident: https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941. Regardless of the letter, I have a little story to add. I first heard of RMS back when I was living in an isolated land on this planet (there are only a few of them). A self-made hacker, which was to some extent my mentor told of his communications with him, since he was active in some GNU projects and RMS had assisted him with publishing his work. Not much, but it was a positive move in support of a young man in a remote place.

KingOfCoders 6y ago

So RMS thinks "having" child pornography is no harm done to the child, but digitally "having" GPL code in your own proprietary code does harm to the author.

torthrowaway998 6y ago
I don't believe that I have ever seen RMS using this argument regarding GPL.
- KingOfCoders 6y ago
  So I can take GPLed code (make child pornography), relicense it under MIT (copy it to the internet), someone takes it (copy it from the internet), includes it into his own ("have it") and sells it closed source?

cbradford 6y ago

Molly de Blanc must be cancelled and removed from all open source projects

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selfishgene 6y ago

Both MIT and Harvard have admitted to helping Jeffrey Epstein avoid prosecution on federal racketeering charges for the sex-trafficking of minors after they were exposed by whistle-blowers at both of these institutions. I'm still not sure why people consider it appropriate to exclude someone like Stallman from serving on the Board of the FSF while continuing to allow Mr. Rafael Reif, for example, to remain president of MIT after sending a personally signed "thank-you note" to one of the most notorious alleged sex-traffickers and convicted child-rapists in US history: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei... Nor would it be any more appropriate to allow Mr. Seth Lloyd back onto the MIT campus with just a slap on the wrist: https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op... Or Mr. Martin Nowak for that matter either: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio... On the subject of Nowak's role in aiding and abetting a child rapist, this hacker news thread is worth reading again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 So why has nobody drafted petitions to cancel Rafael "Thank You So Much Mr. Epstein -- And Don't Forget to Show My Letter to Federal Prosecutors" Reif, Benedict "Epstein is an Ideal Donor for Harvard" Gross, Alan "Dershbag" Dershowitz, Martin "Punishment Serves No Noble Purpose" Nowak, Steven "Using the Internet to Entice a Minor into Prostitution is A-Okay" Pinker, Seth "So What If I Make Female Undergraduates at MIT Feel Uncomfortable" Lloyd, Neri "Epstein was Always a Reliable Supporter of Israel" Oxman, Frank "I Never Saw any Girls that were Underage" Wilczek, and all of the other pedophilia-tolerating two-faced phonies that attended EDGE Foundation dinners hosted by the convicted child rapist and/or visited him on "Pedophile Isle," where FBI reportedly found instruction manuals that Mr. Epstein had ordered on Amazon that describe how to create a so-called "sex slave," in addition to video tapes containing child pornography that he allegedly recorded using secret cameras that were installed throughout his various residences? Mr. Stallman blaming his "being on the spectrum" for all of the troubling statements cataloged on the website cited below may not entirely excuse him for making them since there is no evidence that someone on the spectrum is more likely than the general population to hold similar views on child rape: https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman But the most important question today that Mr. Stallman still needs to address directly, because many of his critics on this issue continue to hold him in the highest regard for his role in advancing the free software movement, is a very frank one: Were his remarks in support of pedophilia designed to persuade Mr. Epstein to donate part of his $500 million estate to the Free Software Foundation, much like he observed role-models such as MIT president Rafael Reif do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Reif sent Mr. Epstein a personally signed thank-you note for his donation to the Media Lab, or colleagues like Martin Nowak do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Nowak created a web page on a university website and an office in his department for a convicted child-rapist in exchange for tens of millions of dollars in donations that were promised to his academic program at Harvard and hundreds of millions of dollars in donations, often laundered through Epstein's fellow billionaire pedophile friends like Les Wexner, Glenn Dubin, and Leon Black, to Harvard University, where Mr. Nowak is a professor? I'm not entirely convinced by the naysayers on this one yet, but Stallman is most deserving of the benefit of doubt thus far, and not because of his autism, but rather because of all of his contributions to free software in spite of it. On the other hand, many of the other Epstein co-conspirators cited above who directly accepted money from the convicted child-rapist as a form of reputation laundering for an individual who they knew, or should have known, was about to face racketeering charges in federal court for the sex-trafficking of hundreds of underage girls over the past 30 years deserve to spend some serious time in the same jail cell where Mr. Epstein (allegedly) killed himself because he was too much of a coward to stand trial for all of the crimes that he knew he had committed.