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I think people are missing the point of this post. Yes, it most likely is an employee matching contribution scheme at its source. But this is a literal trillion

I think people are missing the point of this post. Yes, it most likely is an employee matching contribution scheme at its source. But this is a literal trillion dollar company giving less than $250 to the operating system that they essentially based their whole software stack on. Yes, at the end of the day Apple didn't do anything _wrong_ by using their software and making money off of it. It's just a little on the nose to be making a donation that small.

Bud 6y ago
Is BSD generally actually "their software"—i.e., FreeBSD's software? I'd argue not. FreeBSD is merely one flavor of BSD.
- tw04 6y ago
  Darwin's entire userland was basically a direct rip from FreeBSD, the networking stack as well. Which is fine, that's perfectly acceptable given the license, but it's generally considered good form to actually donate back to the project when you do that, especially when you're worth what Apple is. All that is to say: claiming Apple just built on "generic BSD" isn't really fair or accurate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_%28operating_system%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_%28operating_system%29
  - p_l 6y ago
    Their userland is still majorly based on OSFMK, not FreeBSD - to the point where exactly that assumption recently bit me when trying to run program written for open source BSDs that assumed certain 1993-vintage userland stuff existed on every BSD-declaring system. Darwin/XNU/macOS are not FreeBSD based, nor NetBSD based, nor OpenBSD based, even if in places it can take pieces of their code.
    - heavyset_go 6y ago
      > Darwin/XNU/macOS are not FreeBSD based, nor NetBSD based, nor OpenBSD based, even if in places it can take pieces of their code. Apple disagrees[1]: > XNU is a hybrid kernel combining the Mach kernel developed at Carnegie Mellon University with components from FreeBSD From Apple's kernel docs[2]: > Darwin is based on proven technology from many sources. A large portion of this technology is derived from FreeBSD, a version of 4.4BSD that offers advanced networking, performance, security, and compatibility features. XNU has a "personalities" concept, and the BSD personality is mostly just FreeBSD[2]: > Above the Mach layer, the BSD layer provides “OS personality” APIs and services. The BSD layer is based on the BSD kernel, primarily FreeBSD. Even the syscall interface is from FreeBSD. Here's a diagram of macOS architecture[3]. [1] https://github.com/apple/darwin-xnu https://github.com/apple/darwin-xnu [2] https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/KernelProgramming/Architecture/Architecture.html https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Da... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diagram_of_Mac_OS_X_architecture.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diagram_of_Mac_OS_X_archi...
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  XNU borrows heavily from FreeBSD, in the past and in the present. Apple is very much using software whose copyright belongs to FreeBSD and its contributors specifically, so I think it would be appropriate to say that it is theirs.
jlgaddis 6y ago
> It's just a little on the nose to be making a donation that small. No good deed goes unpunished [0]. The irony is that if Apple hadn't given them a dime, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Instead, they did them give them (a little bit of) money and are now being criticised for it! -- [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_good_deed_goes_unpunished https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_good_deed_goes_unpunished
- eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 6y ago
  Apple has $ 195.57 billion cash reserves [1], are you seriously trying to say that them giving $250 is a good deed? It's like driving by a homeless person in a stretch limo and giving them $0.10. It's an insult, not a donation. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/27/apple-q1-cash-hoard-heres-how-much-apple-has-on-hand.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/27/apple-q1-cash-hoard-heres-ho...
  - yladiz 6y ago
    What? No it’s not. The important party here is the receiver of the money, not the giver. If an insanely rich person and a regular person both give a homeless person $250, in both cases that’s still probably a big deal for the homeless person. Could and should the rich person give more? Maybe, but I don’t think that should be the sole focus.
    - bialpio 6y ago
      Would your opinion change in any way if it turned out the homeless person donated their kidney to the rich person a couple of years ago? It seems to me that the broader context matters here as well.
      - greedo 6y ago
        When someone donates a kidney, they lose the kidney. FBSD didn't lose anything when Apple adopted their freely available code.
GeekyBear 6y ago
FreeBSD uses Apple's open sourced Clang compiler, which is licensed under a BSD style license. It seems like the Karma is in balance here.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
LeoPanthera 6y ago
I thought the (current) macOS userland was from NetBSD, not FreeBSD?
- grahamlee 6y ago
  No, NetBSD claim that (https://netbsd.org/gallery/products.html#darwin https://netbsd.org/gallery/products.html#darwin) but if it was ever true that was a long time ago. Apple synced up with the FreeBSD userland some time toward the end of the first decade of the millennium. They hired FreeBSD’s Jordan K Hubbard (jkh@) as their director of Unix engineering at the time.
  - bluedino 6y ago
    They hired a bunch of FreeBSD secs around that time didn’t they?
- tomxor 6y ago
  I had read quite some years ago now that Apple made use of NetBSD as a starting point each time they needed to port to a new architecture (you know how they saying goes), but ultimately it's the FreeBSD userland and XNU kernel that remains... albeit very outdated userland these days - maybe that's why they don't donate much, they only have FreeBSD from >12 years ago. It's always a PITA giving bash scripts to mac users.
Diederich 6y ago
Correct on all points. Maybe I'm a little crazy, and maybe such thinking fully disqualifies me for ever being on a board of directors, or being a CEO: I'd love to see every...say, billion dollar + tech company slice off 0.1% of their profits and just spread that money around to the various free software projects that they depend on.

Bud 6y ago

Is BSD generally actually "their software"—i.e., FreeBSD's software? I'd argue not. FreeBSD is merely one flavor of BSD.

tw04 6y ago
Darwin's entire userland was basically a direct rip from FreeBSD, the networking stack as well. Which is fine, that's perfectly acceptable given the license, but it's generally considered good form to actually donate back to the project when you do that, especially when you're worth what Apple is. All that is to say: claiming Apple just built on "generic BSD" isn't really fair or accurate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_%28operating_system%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_%28operating_system%29
- p_l 6y ago
  Their userland is still majorly based on OSFMK, not FreeBSD - to the point where exactly that assumption recently bit me when trying to run program written for open source BSDs that assumed certain 1993-vintage userland stuff existed on every BSD-declaring system. Darwin/XNU/macOS are not FreeBSD based, nor NetBSD based, nor OpenBSD based, even if in places it can take pieces of their code.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    > Darwin/XNU/macOS are not FreeBSD based, nor NetBSD based, nor OpenBSD based, even if in places it can take pieces of their code. Apple disagrees[1]: > XNU is a hybrid kernel combining the Mach kernel developed at Carnegie Mellon University with components from FreeBSD From Apple's kernel docs[2]: > Darwin is based on proven technology from many sources. A large portion of this technology is derived from FreeBSD, a version of 4.4BSD that offers advanced networking, performance, security, and compatibility features. XNU has a "personalities" concept, and the BSD personality is mostly just FreeBSD[2]: > Above the Mach layer, the BSD layer provides “OS personality” APIs and services. The BSD layer is based on the BSD kernel, primarily FreeBSD. Even the syscall interface is from FreeBSD. Here's a diagram of macOS architecture[3]. [1] https://github.com/apple/darwin-xnu https://github.com/apple/darwin-xnu [2] https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/KernelProgramming/Architecture/Architecture.html https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Da... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diagram_of_Mac_OS_X_architecture.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diagram_of_Mac_OS_X_archi...
heavyset_go 6y ago
XNU borrows heavily from FreeBSD, in the past and in the present. Apple is very much using software whose copyright belongs to FreeBSD and its contributors specifically, so I think it would be appropriate to say that it is theirs.

jlgaddis 6y ago

> It's just a little on the nose to be making a donation that small. No good deed goes unpunished [0]. The irony is that if Apple hadn't given them a dime, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Instead, they did them give them (a little bit of) money and are now being criticised for it! -- [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_good_deed_goes_unpunished https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_good_deed_goes_unpunished

eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 6y ago
Apple has $ 195.57 billion cash reserves [1], are you seriously trying to say that them giving $250 is a good deed? It's like driving by a homeless person in a stretch limo and giving them $0.10. It's an insult, not a donation. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/27/apple-q1-cash-hoard-heres-how-much-apple-has-on-hand.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/27/apple-q1-cash-hoard-heres-ho...
- yladiz 6y ago
  What? No it’s not. The important party here is the receiver of the money, not the giver. If an insanely rich person and a regular person both give a homeless person $250, in both cases that’s still probably a big deal for the homeless person. Could and should the rich person give more? Maybe, but I don’t think that should be the sole focus.
  - bialpio 6y ago
    Would your opinion change in any way if it turned out the homeless person donated their kidney to the rich person a couple of years ago? It seems to me that the broader context matters here as well.
    - greedo 6y ago
      When someone donates a kidney, they lose the kidney. FBSD didn't lose anything when Apple adopted their freely available code.

GeekyBear 6y ago

FreeBSD uses Apple's open sourced Clang compiler, which is licensed under a BSD style license. It seems like the Karma is in balance here.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

LeoPanthera 6y ago

I thought the (current) macOS userland was from NetBSD, not FreeBSD?

grahamlee 6y ago
No, NetBSD claim that (https://netbsd.org/gallery/products.html#darwin https://netbsd.org/gallery/products.html#darwin) but if it was ever true that was a long time ago. Apple synced up with the FreeBSD userland some time toward the end of the first decade of the millennium. They hired FreeBSD’s Jordan K Hubbard (jkh@) as their director of Unix engineering at the time.
- bluedino 6y ago
  They hired a bunch of FreeBSD secs around that time didn’t they?
tomxor 6y ago
I had read quite some years ago now that Apple made use of NetBSD as a starting point each time they needed to port to a new architecture (you know how they saying goes), but ultimately it's the FreeBSD userland and XNU kernel that remains... albeit very outdated userland these days - maybe that's why they don't donate much, they only have FreeBSD from >12 years ago. It's always a PITA giving bash scripts to mac users.

Diederich 6y ago

Correct on all points. Maybe I'm a little crazy, and maybe such thinking fully disqualifies me for ever being on a board of directors, or being a CEO: I'd love to see every...say, billion dollar + tech company slice off 0.1% of their profits and just spread that money around to the various free software projects that they depend on.