26 ms·

I refused to become an FBI informant, the government put me on the no fly list

• thinker403 6y ago
  While abhorrent, I have a sneaking suspicion this isn't as simple as the title and affidavit suggests. The FBI doesn't just randomly pick people to be informants. Their process is not the TV montage most people think of but a bureaucratic slog with a massive paper trail. If anything, it's likely to be some Kafkaesque mess instead of a spiteful plot to ruin this man's life, which is more concerning in some ways.
• btbuildem 6y ago
  So what's the play here? Become such an incompetent informant that they "fire" you?
  • mplewis 6y ago
    The play here is to not become an informant.
  • adriancr 6y ago
    lawyer and listen to their offer. Inform away on anything illegal annonymously via lawyer (guns/drugs/etc) Earn karma. Let lawyer handle any discussions to avoid getting yourself in trouble / have him explain you don't have anything useful otherwise.
    • btbuildem 6y ago
      Yeah, lawyer sounds about right.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• adriancr 6y ago
  This is why you want a lawyer present in any discussions such as this, false pretenses, FBI questioning you... yeah... "lawyer"
  • danaliv 6y ago
    Probably would’ve still been harassed and wound up on the no-fly list, but yes, if the FBI tricks you into meeting them, walk away.
    • goostavos 6y ago
      That's super easy to say. Personally, I know I'd be scared shitless if I ended up in a room, under false pretenses, with the door closed, and government agents questioning if I'm an enemy of the state. I doubt I'd have the presence of mind to just 'walk away' from the FBI.
      • deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      • danaliv 6y ago
        I'm not just saying it, I've done it. Someone else in this thread has too.
      • adriancr 6y ago
        I'd be scared too, still, I'd say I need to consult a lawyer and have one present, otherwise I'm not saying anything or even listening to them... If you are in such a situation you are already in trouble due to power imbalance. In other places where you can't get a lawyer / have friends high up you might as well play along...
  • nraynaud 6y ago
    I suggest you avoid blaming the victim. This person though they lived in the freedom country and got East Germany, they were taken by surprise. Moreover an Arabic person asking for a lawyer is always a complicated proposition.
• pessimizer 6y ago
  This is exactly the way the Stasi used to get new agents. Monitor someone who they wanted to recruit until they could 1) find an accusation for which the target would have no alibi (although they were clearly innocent) 2) confront the target with the accusation and the penalties for it, 3) say that (as an agent) "I personally think that you are innocent although you have no alibi and would have to be found guilty if reported, 4) "but to prove your loyalty, you could help us just this once in our fight against the criminals we just accused you of working with."
  • onetimemanytime 6y ago
    With so many Muslims why did they choose him? IMO, the no-fly-list should be challenged (and reserved for people who should be in jail, i.e., should not exist) since not traveling is so burdensome. If you want to blow up airlines you should be in jail or mental hospital. Is this the case of someone guilty getting 25 years in jail for not wanting to snitch?
    • 8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
      Wait you think people in jails should just not exist? Do you want to uh elaborate on that a little? EDIT: yes I got it thank you to everyone who explained. I'm not a native english speaker and misunderstood the phrasing.
      • elliekelly 6y ago
        I'm not the person you're replying to but I read their comment as saying the No-Fly List shouldn't exist. As in, if someone is deserving of government restrictions on their movement then they should be in prison, otherwise they should be permitted to move freely.
      • haswell 6y ago
        I believe they were trying to say: "No fly lists should be reserved for people who are in jail ... and therefore the no fly list should not exist (since the people who shouldn't fly can't fly because they're in jail)". But their statement was open to misinterpretation, and it's possible that I might be the misinterpreter.
• tyingq 6y ago
  Happy that the ACLU is taking this on. It shouldn't matter, but if you look at the filed complaint[1] Ahmad is a US citizen. This treatment seems clearly unconstitutional to me. Also, this excerpt from the complaint: >In response, the agents pulled out two newspaper articles about Hezbollah and told Mr. Chebli, “We know you are a Hezbollah agent and were sent here by Hezbollah.” What a couple of assholes. [1] https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/chebli-v-kable-complaint-0 https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/chebli-v-kable-complaint...
  • 3np 6y ago
    While it's terrible enough in either case, it does make a big difference that he's a citizen. Countries have another level of responsibility towards their citizens than to their residents. It shows in how AFAIK no country has even talked about restricting inbound travel for their citizens during the pandemic while even permanent residents have been blanket denied.
    • goodcanadian 6y ago
      Australia has severely rate limited the number of incoming passengers, including citizens. One year on, there are still tens of thousands of Australians unable to get home that want to do so.
      • justaguy88 6y ago
        I haven't seen my parents in over a year due to this, it makes me pretty angry
        • dx034 6y ago
          But those are travel restrictions, not restrictions of entry. For Australia it doesn't make a big difference but they still cannot turn away citizens at their borders. They can detain people or quarantine them but not send them back. I'm not sure if there's any country where denying entry to your citizens is legal.
      • 6y ago
• caconym_ 6y ago
  > I worry that government officials who claim to protect all Americans equally can violate our constitutional rights with impunity. At this point, is there any doubt of this? At least, insofar as "constitutional rights" comprise reasonable interpretations of the Constitution wrt. individual rights, without the sort of tortured, unaccountable interpretations that lead to things like the "100 mile rule".
  • duxup 6y ago
    Generally speaking ANYONE can violate someone's constitution rights. It's what happens (if anything) as a result that is important.
    • N00bN00b 6y ago
      >Generally speaking ANYONE can violate someone's constitution rights. It's what happens (if anything) as a result that is important. I disagree. "What happens as a result" is a process that takes... 8 to 10 years before it reaches the supreme court. For all practical purposes it's the degree by which those representing the government hold themselves to the laws of their country that matters. The fact that in 8 years the injustice will be corrected for one or two people that invest an extraordinary amount of time and suffering to make that happen doesn't mean much. This article in itself is also in the best interest of the FBI. "You've been warned. Decline our offer and the same will happen to you." And it wouldn't surprise me if that was an expected benefit when they engaged knowingly in this illegal activity. Government agencies holding themselves to the law is what is important. And that's not what happened in this case. That means my constitutional rights are theoretical, as is my freedom to be left alone from government interference. I won't engage in a 8 year struggle for justice if they knock on the door trying to coerce me. I'll just fuck off to another country instead, where they won't do that. Way easier and a better use of my time.
      • duxup 6y ago
        SCOTUS isn't the end point for most cases so I'm not at all sure that makes sense as a measuring stick. The case in question was just filed.
• hpkuarg 6y ago
  I hope they succeed with this suit. What a disgusting abuse of government power.
• duxup 6y ago
  There certainly should be a 'reason', legal redress, and accountability for folks putting someone on such a list. It would also clear up what even happened here. Did someone do this maliciously due to his lack of cooperation, or did they have an actual reason and when he chose not to cooperate the FBI chose a different path? If they actually thought he was an agent for some group, that would explain it / at least that could be refuted / proven outside some random office with folks whose incentive is something other than sorting out a no fly list... it certainly shouldn't begin and end under the circumstances described.
• sneak 6y ago
  The FBI has a long-standing pattern of abusive and harassing behavior. They harass potential employers of innocent people out on bail awaiting trial. They even sent MLK Jr anonymous letters telling him to kill himself. Of course, you can't sue them over any of this. Policing in the USA is a national shame, riddled with illegal behavior from the local level all the way up to the top, with few or no repercussions for the perpetrators.
  • totalZero 6y ago
    That abusive and sometimes fatal behavior that you describe as illegal may be prohibited by law, but systemic efforts to protect it regardless demonstrate that it is an intended consequence of modern American policing. We live in a police state.
  • 1cvmask 6y ago
    The repercussions include being promoted.
• sneak 6y ago
  There is also a "no transaction" list that payment processors, banks, and money transmitters have to use.
  • jacquesm 6y ago
    And which is enforced well across the boundaries of the United States. For instance, European banks have to honor the US list of AML/CFT targets to ensure they have access to certain banking systems, which pretty much amounts to a license to operate.
  • matheusmoreira 6y ago
    Hopefully Monero will one day put an end to such tyranny.
• enriquto 6y ago
  At some point in the late eighties my father became disillusioned in communism (basically, seeing people fleeing east germany instead of the other way round). Then he read quite a lot on the subject, and read Orwell and everything. He never became a full-fledged pro-capitalist, but he was very skeptical of socialism. I remember stories during my childhood about how bad and un-free the USSR was, since policemen could "ask your papers" on the street, and the government could act arbitrarily against its own citizens. Thus I grew up hearing a lot of such horrifying stories. Admittedly, I didn't pay too much attention to these stories, but none of them seemed at the time so horrifying as the stuff that I read today about the U.S.A.
  • iso1631 6y ago
    > he was very skeptical of socialism these people fled into Germany, Austria, Denmark and France which half the US claims is socialist
• bgorman 6y ago
  While there are many examples of tyrannical abuse of power by the US government (no-fly lists, secret wiretap courts, CBP demanding access to electronic devices) , many people right now are clamoring for the government to enforce domestic vaccine passports.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • totalZero 6y ago
    Have you ever tried to go to a new school, or get a visa for a foreign country? The three COVID vaccines approved in the US may themselves be new, but vaccine passports already exist and they serve a worthwhile purpose. Besides, the White House has already said they will neither maintain a federal COVID vaccine recipient database nor require anyone to carry a federal COVID vaccine credential. That's good news for vaccine skeptics who are afraid to get the shot but still want to benefit from the herd immunity generated by immunization of their more conscientious neighbors.
• igammarays 6y ago
  This all feels very Soviet. I’m reading a book Mosaic of My Life by Larisa Zalesova about the life of a young girl during Soviet times. One of the chapters in the book almost reads exactly like this account. The No Fly List is equivalent to open air imprisonment, enforced extra-judically. And don’t think if you’re not an Arab, 100% cold blooded white American then you’re safe. How many Trump loyalists were put on no-fly lists without any due course of law, any trial, or any recourse after Jan 6? Land of the free.
• mgarfias 6y ago
  Not dissimilar to how they “worked” with randy weaver.
• ALittleLight 6y ago
  While awful this is some kind of progress. Wasn't too long ago the FBI would just murder your family if you refused to be an informant for them[1]. "Although the FBI agents told me I could leave whenever I wanted, when the door closed and they started questioning me, it certainly didn’t feel that way." You should just walk out at this point. Don't talk to them unless you have to and then not without your lawyer present. I think a lot of the harm comes from the fact they think they're close to bullying their victim into submission so they keep escalating their abuse. If they knew from the start it wouldn't work they might not go so far. 1 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
  • SubiculumCode 6y ago
    If you are going to make an accusation like this about previous FBI practices, you should provide some sources. As is, this is FUD.
    • ALittleLight 6y ago
      Sure, I added a source. I'm referring to the famous incident at Ruby Ridge where the FBI tried to pressure Randy Weaver into being an informant. After he refused they started an escalating cycle of violence culminating in federal agents murdering his unarmed wife and child.
      • ahscrewit 6y ago
        ++yes++
  • capableweb 6y ago
    I'm not sure what your experience with law enforcement is before, but even if you and I know very well you can "leave at any point" and bunch of other facts, actually doing so when faced with someone like that in real life is really, really, really hard. You don't want to give them the impression that you have anything to hide, so you try to cooperate even if you don't really want to, and just walking away feels like it would escalate the situation, even if you realize afterwards it wouldn't.
• tpoacher 6y ago
  Prosecution: The defendent is being un-american for refusing to cooperate with the FBI. Defense: The man is suing. This is as American as it gets. Verdict: Not guilty. (sorry, couldn't resist, sorry, sorry)
• sam537 6y ago
  Reminds me of this, but worse outcome: "The Man Who Refused to Spy The F.B.I. tried to recruit an Iranian scientist as an informant. When he balked, the payback was brutal." https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/09/21/the-man-who-refused-to-spy https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/09/21/the-man-who-re...
  • matheusmoreira 6y ago
    > “Unwitting silent parole” allows the F.B.I. to issue foreign nationals a document that looks to them like a visa but in fact grants them permission to enter the country only for the Bureau’s purposes. So anyone entering the United States could actually be walking into a trap. Good to know.
• arbitrage 6y ago
  An ethnically Muslim friend of mine always is 'randomly' searched when they are traveling through an airport. A white american-born Muslim friend of mine, traveling to and from the middle-east semi-randomly for their job, has never had a single problem. They travel with a lot of expensive camera equipment, and makes sure its taken care of; that is, they generally make a huge pain in the arse of themselves, because otherwise, their shit gets broke. They learned this by experience. This person has never had anyone look at them askew in an airport. I donate regularly to the ACLU, and you should too.
  • selimthegrim 6y ago
    Muslim isn’t an ethnic group. This isn’t Bosnia.
• djoldman 6y ago
  Law professor James Duane: "Don't talk to the police" https://youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE
  • bruiseralmighty 6y ago
    I watch this about once a year just to remind myself. You are required to give your name if asked. You are sometimes required to provide identification if asked in depending on your jurisdiction. Do not talk to the police, it can never help you.
    • cody8295 6y ago
      Actually most states don't have "Stop & ID" laws, but some do. In states without "Stop & ID" laws, you only have to ID yourself when suspected of committing a crime, or suspected that you're about to commit a crime. Not sure how it works outside of the USA.
      • BrandoElFollito 6y ago
        > Not sure how it works outside of the USA In France we explain to the children that when there is a problem, they should go to a policeman. Or immediatly enter the nearest shop, go directly to the cashier and explain they are lost. Not that it worked with mine. I did twice the test when my kids were 6 or 8 and instead of doing what they were happily recitating in the evening, they started to cry their lungs out.
        • SamBam 6y ago
          Huh? I'm confused about what the "test" was. (Also, the poster above wasn't saying never ask the police for help, rather you shouldn't answer them if they are questioning you without your lawyer.)
      • koonsolo 6y ago
        So how do they check if you have a driver license? Or do a routine check for drunk driving? That's not allowed in US?
• 3327 6y ago
  He may be accomplice or a strong suspect, the agents may be patriots or not. It doesn't matter. The FBI doesn't matter, this guy's words could also be fake and very likely doesn't reflect the full extend of the backstory. However, the line between America, and what America stands for is very thin. Cross that line one or twice, the nation becomes what countless young men died for fighting against. my own view, comments welcome.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
• darig 6y ago
  You'd probably have better luck just becoming a terrorist. It seems like that is what the FBI wants.
  • jbm 6y ago
    This sounds like an extreme statement but police goading misguided people into terrorism happens a lot. One example: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/judge-says-rcmp-entrapped-bc-couple-in-terror-case-overturns-guilty-verdict/article31199892/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/judge-...
    • darig 6y ago
      HN does not like being confronted with the truth.
  • bruiseralmighty 6y ago
    This quite literally happens with the FBI on a regular basis. Most recently, the plot to capture in Michigan governor was in fact founded, organized, and mainly staffed by federal law enforcement. They goaded a handful of 'regular' folks into signing onto their honeypot and 'busted' them for terrorism. FBI comes out looking like heros; keeping them relevant and well funded during a time when law enforcement popularity is waning rapidly.
• nashashmi 6y ago
  If someone criticizes government, they can erase his global entry.
• lrvick 6y ago
  I refused to be an FBI informant once. They threatened to make up false charges on me. I held my ground. They harrassed me at home twice, talked to my employer and made a huge stink trying to create pressure. I didn't cave and they eventually went away, because I committed no crimes and they knew it. As a security researcher I sometimes make contact with controversial people in order to get information, like a journalist might. They wanted those contacts. Too bad.
  • giantg2 6y ago
    So who do you report law enforcement misconduct to? Normally it's the FBI/DOJ, but it seems there's a conflict of interest in these cases...
    • JumpCrisscross 6y ago
      > who do you report law enforcement misconduct to? These rights are privately enforced. There is no public federal enforcement. You have to do what this gentleman is doing. Sue in the courts. It is becoming apparent that the U.S. needs an independent agency focussed on transgressions by law enforcement / a civil rights enforcement bureau. One could keep it purely civil, to avoid conflicting with the DoJ. But in the same way that criminal prosecution is specialized enough that consolidating it in the DoJ makes sense, investigating law enforcement is specialized and conflicted enough that consolidating it under an independent agency makes sense.
      • Sargos 6y ago
        You could argue that this is what the ACLU is. They need better funding.
        • ScoobleDoodle 6y ago
          ACLU donation link for the lazy https://action.aclu.org/give/now https://action.aclu.org/give/now I personally have a monthly recurring donation. Give what works for you.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• heavyset_go 6y ago
  This is why law enforcement needs extensive citizen oversight, and those that are found to abuse the power society has trusted them with must face justice.
• obviouslynotme 6y ago
  Anyone familiar with USG CI procedures will only be surprised by how nice only using the No-Fly List is. The FBI tends to be a bit more professional than other agencies though. God have mercy on your soul if the ATF ever becomes interested in you.
• blunte 6y ago
  You don't have to watch much TV (series, streamed) to imagine what is possible these days. Frankly, if you cross the wrong connected person, you are effectively subjected to rules outside the normal law. It's very wrong, but it's certainly plausible and obviously real for some people.
• NotSammyHagar 6y ago
  The no fly list seems to be clearly unconstitutional. You can't find out why you are on it, you can ask for redress but you have no legal ability to file actions on it apparently. You cannot ever overcome it because it is the magic "national security". For us citizens especially, why can I travel anywhere via any normal legal means? If I'm dangerous on an airplane and you can legally stop me from doing it, it seems it's another obvious extension to say I can't ride on a bus, a boat, drive a car? There must be a good reason the no fly list has not come to the us supreme court - probably because the govt delays and then folds if anyone has a compelling case. But it must come to trial! I know there are dangerous terrorists in the world that want to kill me, and I don't want to enable them. But there's a lot more people on the no fly list in the us for very dubious considerations (probably, the number must be a secret too).
  • yaur 6y ago
    I would speculate that they are pretty quick to take citizens off the list as soon as they lawyer up, rendering any case that could get the whole thing thrown out moot.
  • cortesoft 6y ago
    Yes...in fact, the ACLU has already file lawsuits about this nearly 10 years ago... and won. And yet here we are, with it still going on. https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/federal-court-sides-aclu-no-fly-list-lawsuit https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/federal-court-sides-aclu...
  • penultimatename 6y ago
    What makes you think the no-fly list is unconstitutional? The Supreme Court doesn't take cases because a law is unfair, they take cases that violate the Constitution or written law. The Court has routinely deemed "national security" concerns as a valid reason for laws to exist, so long as those concerns aren't just makeup for a more discriminatory reasoning.
    • lacker 6y ago
      Some of the processes around the no-fly list have been declared unconstitutional before. For example: https://aclu-or.org/en/cases/court-rules-no-fly-list-process-unconstitutional-and-must-be-reformed-0 https://aclu-or.org/en/cases/court-rules-no-fly-list-process... IANAL but it would not surprise me if the courts further restricted the ability of law enforcement to arbitrarily modify the no-fly list in the future.
• mountainb 6y ago
  The answer to any request for any conversation with any Fed of any type, flavor, or variety in any venue is "not without my lawyer," and ideally one with experience in handling FBI interviews. The risks are like dancing drunk in traffic with a blindfold on. It is just not sensible to talk to Feds regardless of whether or not you did anything illegal unless you are forced to.
  • ub99 6y ago
    Is it generally recommended to find a lawyer and have their contact on your phone? I have never been detained so I don’t understand the actual process. If I say I will not speak without a lawyer - can I go online and find one? Is my only option to request a free lawyer provided by the state?
    • mountainb 6y ago
      You do not need to have retained a lawyer to say that. You haver a right to remain silent means you have the right to remain silent and not say anything. If you don't have one and still want one, you can get a public defender. It has to be a federal public defender in your district if you are hiring one because federal law enforcement does not handle state law. The nature of the KGB-style interviews given by federal investigators is that they can be hours long over multiple sessions and you are not allowed by statute to record them. A white shoe caliber law firm will have attorneys record everything that is said manually in notes and keep the client on track to avoid accidental self incrimination. Everyone including super genius multi millionaires and saints who have never so much as received a parking ticket will incriminate themselves in the course of FBI interviews without extreme care being taken to avoid it due to the manipulative nature of the process. When normal people without lawyers self incriminate in the course of these interrogations, the feds then use this as leverage to get cooperation from the interrogation target. Hence why one should never volunteer to talk to them about anything for any reason including if you are trying to help them to track down your mother's killer (probably especially if they're on that case, because you'll be target #1 for railroading).
      • 6y ago
• kyleblarson 6y ago
  Never talk to law enforcement without a lawyer. Full stop.
• heyuji78 6y ago
  In October last year, attorneys for American Muslims who were placed or kept on the No-Fly List in retaliation for refusing to spy on their communities argued before the U.S. Supreme Court, urging the Court to uphold a ruling that the men may sue the FBI agents for interfering with their freedom to practice their religion. The men initially sued to be removed from the List. After years of being prevented from flying, and just days before the first major hearing in the case, the men each received a letter informing them they were no longer on the List. A judge then dismissed the remaining portion of their lawsuit, which sought damages for the emotional and financial harm the men had suffered. Still, a federal appeals court reinstated the case. The Trump administration appealed to the Supreme Court.
• ai_ja_nai 6y ago
  This looks like a random episode from "How to get away with murder"
• rscho 6y ago
  Not so long ago, I got detained by TSA because I lost the address of my US destination. Note that I had previously been employed in the US and had no legal issues standing. That's also the day I vowed to never set foot on US soil again. Reading some comments here is a good reminder as to why.
  • ilaksh 6y ago
    As a US citizen, my encounters with the TSA and other agencies have also caused me a great deal of pause to say the least. For example, I have been living on a tourist visa in Mexico, and after being treated like a presumed drug mule each time I crossed to pick up mail, I now avoid crossing the border unless it is 100% required. The last time I tried to fly somewhere I was accosted by an agent and interrogated, forced to give my employer's number. I am pretty sure that cost me that contract. I think it was because I was tired and started to get angry about three questions in. My experience with the IRS has been worse. They behaved the way I assume a loan shark would.
• ahscrewit 6y ago
  I agree with the premise of the article but ACLU might be shooting themselves in the foot asking for money with a full page popup before letting me see the thing. I almost didn't read it as a result. Just sayin'. (In b4 "turn off javascript" jamokes. YES, I know. I get it.)
• soldehierro 6y ago
  Every day we inch closer to a police state.
• ghufran_syed 6y ago
  “Don’t talk to the police” - from a law school lecture: https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE
  • joshlemer 6y ago
    Asked the same question to an commenter posting the same link, anyone know of a similar resource for the Canadian context?
    • sbarre 6y ago
      Some basic googling comes up with reasonable resources, including this: https://www.pringlelaw.ca/speaking-with-police/ https://www.pringlelaw.ca/speaking-with-police/
• Vaslo 6y ago
  Is there a way to support this without supporting the ACLU?
• dirtyoldmick 6y ago
  That kind of thing is what caused the Ruby Ridge incident. When Randy Weaver refused to become an informant they charged him with cutting a shotgun barrel 3/8th of an inch too short for a "friend" who asked for a favor. His "friend" was actually an under cover agent. Then the Feds surrounded his house and killed his dog, his son, wife and his unborn child. This guy should be extremely careful. If I were in this guy's situation I would probably just leave the country. His refusal could very well be a death sentence.
• jakearmitage 6y ago
  Loosely related: are there any free college classes on US Law? Or which books should I buy? I feel like having basic knowledge about common law processes is just as essential as cooking, home improvement, etc.
  • DethNinja 6y ago
    Law 101: Everything You Need to Know About American Law is pretty good to get a general idea. You can decide which law books you want to read from civil procedure to business law depending on your needs at a later stage but mentioned book is a great start.
• worik 6y ago
  I take no joy in the continuing radicalisation of the law enforcement authorities in the USA. This is nothing new, has been around since the founding of the republic one way or another. What a shame, what a waste.
• 1cvmask 6y ago
  The Obama administration put a 5 year old non-white kid on the No Fly List. Imagine the outcry if the Chinese did that to Muslim kids. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List_Kids https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List_Kids Maybe the Obama administration thought Muslim kids are terrorists just like other kids can be trained to be Kinder Guardians: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkXeMoBPSDk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkXeMoBPSDk
  • oh_sigh 6y ago
    Obama can put names onto Canada's No Fly List? Interesting.
  • muglug 6y ago
    > Imagine the outcry if the Chinese did that The Chinese government is doing extraordinarily worse things to hundreds of thousands of Muslim kids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghurs#Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_Xinjiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghurs#Persecution_of_Uyghurs...
    • 1cvmask 6y ago
      Obama has killed more muslims (millions in countries ranging from Yemen to Libya to South Sudan to Syria to.....) than anyone else in the 21st century. As for the “concern” of Uighurs, it is a funny coincidence that it is from the same crowd who openly advocated genocide in countries ranging from Iraq to (insert country) etc... These are well worth a read at least and you can then make up your mind: https://thegrayzone.com/2021/03/17/report-uyghur-genocide-sham-university-neocon-punish-china/ https://thegrayzone.com/2021/03/17/report-uyghur-genocide-sh... https://thegrayzone.com/2021/03/31/china-uyghur-gun-soldiers-empire/ https://thegrayzone.com/2021/03/31/china-uyghur-gun-soldiers...
• unknown2374 6y ago
  Why is this post so far down the front page (no. 16 at the time of writing)? There are older posts with way less points in the top 10, is there some weird HN algo ranking the posts?
  • BlueGh0st 6y ago
    I hate to comment on these types of things, but I noticed the same. It's on the 2nd page right now with almost 1k upvotes within 5 hours. Meanwhile there are articles on the front page that are 17 hours old with half the upvotes. It definitely seems like it's being suppressed, which is understandable for most political discussion. But as evidenced in the comments, this clearly affects a large minority of the tech industry.
• dalbasal 6y ago
  Troubling. I find it surprising^, that our "democratic norms" don't have much to say about dealing with certain things: how to prosecute investigators, investigate high officials and other such tricky tasks. Troubling enough that the ACLU & a lawsuit to remove this person from a no fly list seems insufficient. That doesn't necessarily do much to make sure that presumption of innocence remains functional. ^no irony intended.
• ChuckMcM 6y ago
  All the legal folks in my family have suggested to me that when ever law enforcement wants to talk, the response should be "Sure, here is the number of my lawyer, why don't you set up a time that is convenient for all three of us."
• SamBam 6y ago
  There was a similar, much more terrifying, story was in the New Yorker about six months ago. An Iranian physicist, Sirous Asgari, visited some US universities. On his next entry into the US he was detailed by the FBI as he entered and handed a completely-invented indictment of numerous crimes, and they demanded that he become an informant. He refused, since the indictment was completely phony. The FBI, furious, ensured he was charged with everything under the sun. Even though the government lost its case against him (due to clear lies by the FBI), he was then thrown in an ICE jail, through utter Kafkaesque bureaucratic hand-offs. Had to endure near-prison revolts as the inmates tries to keep themselves free of Covid. A judge almost granted him release due to the dangers of getting ill, but then he caught Covid and nearly died, so his petition was rejected. He was finally swapped as part of a prisoner-swap deal with Iran. And yet he seems to be persona-no-grata now in Iran, as the assumption is that he must now be working for the FBI. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/09/21/the-man-who-refused-to-spy https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/09/21/the-man-who-re...
  • 1cvmask 6y ago
    Land of the free... except if you are black, non-white or muslim....
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • deathanatos 6y ago
    There's the story of the Ibrahim family, too. The mother, Dr. Rahinah Ibrahim, sued over being wrongly put on the No-fly list. Her daughter — a US citizen — was to testify at her trial but was denied boarding her flight because she too had been put on the no fly list. https://papersplease.org/wp/2013/12/02/witness-in-no-fly-trial-finds-shes-on-no-fly-list-too/ https://papersplease.org/wp/2013/12/02/witness-in-no-fly-tri... > Dr. Ibrahim’s oldest daughter Raihan Mustafa Kamal was denied boarding in Kuala Lumpur yesterday when she tried to board a flight to San Francisco to observe and testify at the trial in her mother’s lawsuit. > Ms. Mustafa Kamal, an attorney licensed to practice law in Malaysia, was born in the U.S. and is a U.S. citizen. Ms. Mustafa Kamal was with her mother when Dr. Ibrahim was denied boarding on a flight from K.L. to San Francisco in 2005 (after having been told that her name had been removed from the “no-fly” list) under what now seem eerily similar circumstances. The DHS had been given notice that Ms. Mustafa Kamal would testify at the trial as an eyewitness to those events she witnessed in 2005.
• groos 6y ago
  Ahmed Chebli's biggest error seems to have been to agree to meet FBI without having his lawyer present. CAIR (https://www.cair.com/know_your_rights/your-rights-with-law-enforcement/ https://www.cair.com/know_your_rights/your-rights-with-law-e...) has long been warning people in the Muslim community to never talk to FBI without legal representation and in fact gives free representation in such cases. Ahmed's case is relatively mild. There have been numerous instances of people in the Muslim community entrapped by the FBI into committing "crimes", and subsequently sentenced to long prison terms, where the perpetrator was often a person of low intelligence, just to show that the war on terror was producing results.
• camillomiller 6y ago
  America, land of the free.
• easton_s 6y ago
  If youtube has taught me anything: 1) Do not talk to the police without a lawyer. 2) Do not talk to the police without a lawyer. 3) Do not talk to the police without a lawyer.
• downandout 6y ago
  Quote from the article: I answered all their questions truthfully. This was his fatal mistake. It doesn’t matter why law enforcement wants to talk to you. It’s never for a good thing, and it is never in your interest to talk to them. It seems like common knowledge that you should never talk to the police, however it is so rare in practice that this video bears repeating: https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE
• 661210713603063 6y ago
  A year-ish ago I said something stupid/irresponsible on the internet about how to (theoretically!!) easily go about hacking into police depts in America. (Obviously won't go into details, but the vulns are not sophisticated and still exist). Someone ended up calling the police because they thought I was a bad "hacker" guy, and because my opsec was bad, the subpeona revealed info that was linked to me personally. Well, the police mustve forwarded what they subpeonaed to the FBI or some other federal LEA because my phone and also my home network became the target of some not-so-subtle hacking attempts for a few months after that. Like, smishing and quantum insert on my browser. Not sure if it was so noisy in order to harass or maybe they just didn't care, or maybe they're amatuers. I guess law enforcement really dislikes when you point out how to pwn them. Haven't flown since. Been wondering what will happen when I do. You can make whatever you want of this story.
• nanoscopic 6y ago
  I've been threatened by the FBI and demanded to confess who my underworld contacts are. I told them to go fuck themselves. They were not happy about that. They tried to frame me by having "fake criminals" proposition me for criminal work. The "fake criminals" even threatened to kill me. I went straight to the FBI and told them about the fake criminals, of course not admitting that I am well aware the whole thing was a ruse to try to force me to cooperate with the FBI. The FBI offered to put me into protective custody of some sort to protect me. I said I don't give a shit and that I welcome the criminals to come and get me because I'm not afraid.
• roadbeats 6y ago
  Here is devil’s advocate ready to be voted down: People get tortured and executed for not sharing information, or actually not having any information in countries in the middle east. They wouldn’t hesitate erasing a family all together from the planet if they don’t share information. And here is FBI, pressuring to get information. Of course, western democracy is supposed to be better. It is better though. And that’s really the best it could be.
• ur-whale 6y ago
  Land of the free ftw.
• ArtDev 6y ago
  The dark irony is that white supremacists are allowed to fly, they are just followed and watched. The FBI is a joke. They appear to be both incompetent (911, Capitol insurrection, Malheur Wildlife Refuge occupation) and at the same time heavy-handed (Waco, "war on terror, Ruby Ridge). It is a brutal mix.
• fallingknife 6y ago
  "the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him;" - the 6th amendment When did this stop applying?
• stevespang 6y ago
  Why doesn't our Gov't do this to every migrant coming from the South ? Force them to gather evidence and snitch on the cartels for 4 years or so service as part of their conditions of being allowed inside our country.
• whoisjohnkid 6y ago
  Wish more folks saw this lecture about never talking to the police: https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE
• throwitaway12 6y ago
  This may or may not have happened to myself, and with a different agency. It's more common than one may think. The only sensible thing you can do is tell them to fuck off.
• jimt1234 6y ago
  Similar situation happened to me back in the 80's when I was just a nerdy kid with a Commodore 64. I used to meet up weekly with a handful of other C64 nerds that all came together through a popular, local BBS. (I think one of the guys ran the BBS.) One day, riding home on my bicycle, a car stopped me, two guys got out and told me they were with the FBI, then started asking questions about the group. I was told to always cooperate with authority, and they were very friendly (they even complimented my cool Mongoose BMX bike!), so I just went along. They asked a lot of questions about others in the group, and sometimes about others' parents, which was weird - I didn't even know what my own parents did for a living back then! LOL Anyway, next week, same thing. Same car, same spot around the corner from my house, same guys, same questions about people in the group, and the same responses from me. This went on for a few weeks when I finally told my mom about it. Next week: no car, no FBI guys, no questions. I figured they got what they wanted or they finally realized I didn't know my ass from my elbow. Many years later, I talked to my mother about it. I didn't know it back then, but she was PISSED. She told me she called about a dozen FBI offices and screamed at each person she talked to. She said they were generally dismissive until she informed them that her college friend was a top reporter for the local newspaper (totally false, my mom didn't even go to college). Also many years later, I talked to another guy from the group and discovered the exact same thing happened to him. Same FBI, same around-the-corner from his house, same questions, and same situation with his mom getting PO'ed when she found out (we all grew up in single-parent homes). The FBI guys even complimented him on his BMX bike, too, which is total BS because mine was way better. His was some lame knock-off from Sears or something. Mine was a Mongoose, man!!! This all happened after the movie 'War Games' hit theaters and became sort of popular. The rumor has been that people were so spooked by the movie that thousands of FBI agents were dispatched across the country to gather intel, and to determine if it was really possible that some pimple-faced kid could start a nuclear war with a home computer and a 300-baud modem. So yeah, if you get approached by the FBI, don't talk to them. Just have your mom go scream at them.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• varispeed 6y ago
  This is why five eyes countries try to push for ending end to end encryption and other secure forms of communications. That's why services like Facebook continue to operate and so on. This way everyone can be an informant whether they like it or not, just by interacting with other people on the network. Bots will analyse whether someone you innocently talked to said something that bots found similar to the manner an enemy would sound like. From there they can automate invitations for interrogation or in more distant future, order a special mix of "vaccine" that will make such person infertile, or just simply take them out of the picture. Today you may think that we have good leaders that would never do something like this, but remember not so long ago supposedly civilised country was shipping people on trains straight into ovens. If we create means, then at some point someone will misuse them.
• chmod775 6y ago
  > Although the FBI agents told me I could leave whenever I wanted In that kind of situation, just leave right then and there. You can't be extorted if they don't get make their threats. If they don't let you leave, get your lawyer and shut up. Don't talk to thugs and certainly don't get involved with thugs, badge or not.
• Guthur 6y ago
  I'm not sure if the FBI has special liberty but I can't help but think of a YouTube video [1] I saw from a lawyer which basically said "never talk to the police" [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE
• King-Aaron 6y ago
  Land of the free (TM)
• Layke1123 6y ago
  The amount of people shit talking the US government and the FBI while simultaneously speaking gloriously about the economic engine that powers it is comical at best, hypocritical at worst.
• hackersword 6y ago
  >Although the FBI agents told me I could leave whenever I wanted, when the door closed and they started questioning me, it certainly didn’t feel that way. I know easy to say in hindsight and safely behind keyboard , but you need to call them on that at the very first instance. Before any other words have left their mouth. You realistically may NOT be "free to leave"; and if they demonstrate that by physically barring you from the door you need to repeatedly ask them if you are free to leave or being detained. Make sure the "lie" is obvious. At that point, it is even more of a cue to shut your damn mouth.
• shakey_mcshake 6y ago
  I know firsthand the FBI will try to get your guard down so that they can interrogate you by claiming they need your help with an investigation. Most people will want to be helpful. If the FBI ever asks you for help, immediately call a lawyer. It’s worth the retainer to find out who and what they’re really after and to avoid any entrapment. If the FBI is being nice to you, it’s probably you they’re after. They probably never wanted to hire the author as an informant. They probably suspected he was a terrorist and wanted to interrogate him without a lawyer present. It sounds like their plan worked. Be smart. Call a lawyer. Let them talk to the FBI for you.
• Crontab 6y ago
  I have heard people suggest that no one on the no-fly list should be able to purchase a weapon. This article points out the problem with using the no-fly list for that purpose. (Note: IMO the way no-fly list is managed is unconstitutional)
• giardini 6y ago
  So if you're on the no-fly list can you travel by boat? It seems this might be an improvement in lifestyle.
• sswam 6y ago
  As an Australian, the USA is one of many countries I won't travel to, because your government and judicial system can't be trusted.
• ajxs 6y ago
  One important question that's missing from the article is: "Why do the FBI think that the author would be a valuable informant?". Other people have commented in this thread with their own experiences of having been threatened and coerced by federal agencies. These people for the most part provided concrete reasons why they would be targeted for such a job, mostly being professionals involved in computer security research, or having valuable contacts who are. Does the FBI have reason to believe that this individual has proximity to individuals who are at risk of committing illegal acts? Playing devils advocate, there's an awful lot that the article wants us to take at face value.
• xallarap 6y ago
  Just fear mongering.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• steve76 6y ago
  Good. Cure cancer, or it's the ax for you. And after cancer, there's still neurological disease. That goes for EVERYONE, especially the rich fools at the ACLU.
• antpls 6y ago
  As a EU citizen, I wonder how that is different than the China Communist Party methods.
• SuaveSteve 6y ago
  What a sick country