13 ms·

Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

147 points by upofadown 6y ago

easytiger 6y ago
> Mr. Stallman is personally known to me. I could testify that he is extremely obnoxious. Due to his handicap, he has little perception of what the feelings and reactions of others might be to his thoughts and actions... I was sat 1 meter away from Bruce at a convention when Stallman had stood up to interrupt the presentation from some marketing woman from google on a point of principle regarding an error she made in speech about the BSD license). He then turned his ire on Perens and publicly admonished him for his more pragmatic views on something related that I have now sadly forgotten. I mention only to say i know the kind of treatment Bruce got from Richard as I was in the sightline of the pointing and the high pitched unmistakable loud voice calling him out in a room of hundreds of people. He just laughed it off with a gesture. He seemed very affable and polite in our brief conversation. edit a google has turned up someone who took notes including some of the detail i gave above https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8941 https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8941
deleted 6y ago
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comex 6y ago
> In doing this, I believe that the FSF board felt that punishment should have an end, especially in the case of the first punishment, and should include an opportunity for the punished to demonstrate that he has reformed his behavior. Has Stallman apologized for the behavior in question, or stated that he has in fact reformed? Or is this mere speculation?
echelon 6y ago
Richard Stallman will be punished until the day he dies. And then they will vandalize his grave. All I can do is to try not to commit crimes [1] myself, lest I be similarly removed from employment, stripped of accolade, and banished forever. [1] I'm LGBT and very open and inclusive with everyone (including democrats and republicans), but I seriously worry that eating meat might one day be frowned upon and punished. edit: the idea that maybe we should give him a chance is persecuted, too. Nevermind that our entire careers are built on his shoulders and that no US court has found him guilty of a crime -- off with his head!
- peytn 6y ago
  > I seriously worry that eating meat might one day be frowned upon and punished That’s perhaps too drastic and a little unprecedented. The trajectory we’re on I think leads to discouraging procreation in certain groups. A child that isn’t born is a lineage that doesn’t harm the climate. We’ve already witnessed a historic outpouring of the eugenic impulse to control disease. I think it’s most likely over the coming century we’ll discover genocide is okay as long as it happens in slow motion, since there is precedent for genocide.
- chillfox 6y ago
  People in leadership roles should be held to higher standards than normal employees.
- logicchains 6y ago
  >[1] I'm LGBT and very open and inclusive with everyone (including democrats and republicans), but I seriously worry that eating meat might one day be frowned upon and punished. If that happens you could just come to Asia. That cult of climate guilt is entirely a western things; in China people'd give someone weird looks for being vegetarian for non-religious reasons. And to the people coming to down vote this: there are a over a billion people who don't share your radical environmentalist views and never will, suck it up.
AussieWog93 6y ago
It seems a copout to blame his behaviour on his Autism. Plenty of people on the spectrum go about daily life without making grandiose public statements about pedophiles or eating toe jam in public - even for an Autistic person it's obvious that this will cause a negative reaction.
- alex_young 6y ago
  It’s called Autism Spectrum Disorder for a reason. There are many different ways an individual’s personality can be impacted by it.
  - AussieWog93 6y ago
    Of course. But Stallman was quite eloquent and had a well-adjusted social network. Arguing that Stallman's neurological wiring made him completely unaware that, for example, having bad personal hygeine was off-putting and anti-social is ridiculous. He must have been told this literally hundreds of times by people he trusts.
- aortega 6y ago
  For people who says they are all for inclusion and equality, they seem to be quite selective in the type of personalities that they allowed to be in their group.
  - deleted 6y ago
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- DistressedDrone 6y ago
  Indeed, being on the spectrum does not preclude being considerate, which he is most definitely not.
  - deleted 6y ago
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- shard972 6y ago
stonogo 6y ago
Bruce Perens maintains that Stallmen is employed by the FSF. According to all their tax filings, he has not ever drawn a salary. Perhaps those with stronger legal education than mine can answer: how does the ADA apply to boards?
square_usual 6y ago
I'm no fan of Stallman, but I do find it worrying that some companies can unilaterally decide to sink the FSF if they don't like what it's doing. Of course, any foundation with companies on its board is at risk for that, but the fact that people who support Free Software, who ideally should shun corporate control of software, are cheering it on is disappointing, and is directly due to the kind of easy judgement people are rendering upon each other.
- deleted 6y ago
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- staticassertion 6y ago
  > I'm no fan of Stallman, but I do find it worrying that some companies can unilaterally decide to sink the FSF if they don't like what it's doing. Why? That's like, the entire basis of every organization, that supporters don't have to support it. If a company selling a product behaves in a way you don't want to support you stop buying, if a charity stops supporting a cause you stop supporting it, etc.
  - throwaway8581 6y ago
    The real question is why every single major company in America is vigorously enforcing social norms that significant portions of the population, often a majority, don’t even agree with. This is very different than other eras.
    - eschaton 6y ago
      It’s curious that you think these norms are not widely held.
      - mindslight 6y ago
        I certainly hope that piling on to yellow journalism is not a widely held norm.
    - 6y ago
KingOfCoders 6y ago
How is a "You can't lead an organisation and be a role model if your views hurt a significant amount of people in the organisation" a non-judicial punishment? If you can't read or write you would also probably not lead a large organization, and it's not punishment. Can you rejoin if you have learned reading and writing? Yes. Stallman is not a janitor but in top management (I have the highest respect for janitors but they are not required to be a role model of the organization). "Thus, they are bound by the Americans with Disability Act and other applicable law to make accommodations for a handicapped employee." Totally agree, but I won't make a blind person the watchout guy on a ship. There are limits to inclusion. [Edit] HN you made me giggle this morning. This gets quite some downvotes and for a short time was Karma negative - so people try to cancel me with downvotes for my opinion because they think RMS is cancelled for his opinion. Believing two different things at the same time - or believing one thing by doing the opposite is the real turing test. Nice insight, thanks.
- riffraff 6y ago
  As I understand it, it is non judicial because there is no judiciary system involved. This doesn't imply it's not an irrational action, i.e. you may justifiably avoid a person/thing that is linked with immoral behavior even if there is no sentence (say, avoid bitcoin because of climate issues).
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    I think they were asking about the punishment part.
- dkdk8283 6y ago
  His views are not relevant. Should focus on his ability to contribute and keep personal beliefs out of the picture.
  - enraged_camel 6y ago
    Except he didn’t keep his views to himself. He shared it with a ton of others, in writing.
tinus_hn 6y ago
> Thus, they are bound by the Americans with Disability Act and other applicable law to make accommodations for a handicapped employee. Does ADA require an airline to employ a blind pilot? Besides allowing his service dog? This essay starts with reason and ends with a slapstick statement equivalent to Walmart being required to keep employing a greeter with (movie cliche type) Tourette’s. There is no defined end to this non judicial punishment, especially not in this case where there has been no improvement in the cause and apparently there never will be. It’s not for mr. Perens to decide differently.
- LVDOVICVS 6y ago
  A blind pilot isn’t capable of doing the job of piloting.
  - isaacimagine 6y ago
    You have to pass a visual exam for the AME to certify you as a pilot; once you get the certification, however, going blind later won't necessarily revoke it.
  - tinus_hn 6y ago
    Is an extremely obnoxious man capable of doing the job of a publicly visible board member?
    - Natsu 6y ago
      Didn't he found the organization to begin with?
      - hollerith 6y ago
        Yes.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
      If history is any indication, then yes, he can. He had created the movement that has transformed the industry forever and motivated dosens of thousands developers to contribute their efforts towards Free Software. And he did it because of the very qualities he is vilified now: persistence, pedantry, having strong opinions.
eyelidlessness 6y ago
RMS is abusive. I'm autistic too. When I've behaved in similar ways, I've been similarly forced to account for my behavior. I resent the fact that ostensible defense of him as a person on the spectrum is so ideological. I distrust most of his defenders' sincerity when they talk about his neurodivergence, and I don't consider them allies.
- aortega 6y ago
  You clearly are not an expert on autism. The disease is a huge spectrum of different behaviors, from almost normal, to severe retardation. I've seen RMS in real life, he's borderline can't take care of himself, that's not being abusive.
  - geofft 6y ago
    I've met RMS in real life and talked to him on multiple occasions. He can absolutely take care of himself and it's a little insulting to RMS to say that he can't. (Who took care of him between when he left his job at MIT and when the FSF got enough funding to hire him an assistant, if he wasn't taking care of himself?)
    - dkdk8283 6y ago
      Context is everything. It’s unfair to judge someone in such a harsh manner. Your anecdotal observations are just that: anecdotal observations. People with a manic depressive disorder can have both great highs and deep lows at different periods. We should be tolerant of everyone as much as we can.
    - aortega 6y ago
      Not everyone is fine all of the time, and autistic personalities can get high and lows. To me, he seem quite normal and a cool guy that likes make totally inappropriate jokes or comments (that makes them even more funny), but I'm a little autistic myself.
      - 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
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legulere 6y ago
The FSF looks even more like a sect if you do mental gymnastics like that for your former guru. RMS publicly defended child rape. Someone like that should not get to define what freedom means. RMS has all the right not to get attacked about his awkward behavior, but he has to feel the consequences on his ideological thought.
- echelon 6y ago
  > should not get to define what freedom means. This little bit right here sounds fascist. I'm not going to defend RMS' words or actions (I don't even know what the entire case against him is, and the more extreme this gets the less I want to pry into his personal life). I do think people are losing their minds to assassinate the guy. RMS has given us our entire industry and careers. Without free software, you wouldn't have a job. I wouldn't either. Take a moment and let the gravity of that sink in. (take a moment) He apologized and spent several years away from the organization he founded. Why does it have to be the rest of his natural life? We're murdering him and taking his baby. Why do people nowadays believe in permanent assassination of character? Unending punishment? People have redemption arcs. The stupid movies, books, and tv shows that everyone in this thread watches have forgiveness and grace in them. Why do we deny them to our fellow humans? I'm an atheist, but Jesus preached against this kind of thing, and I think we could learn from some of his teachings. Throwing stones and forgiveness. ========================================================= I got cut off by the Hacker News negative karma filter for the downvotes I got, but I typed out a comment I was pretty happy with. (It was to this comment [2]) I'll include it here instead: > There ought to be a place for RMS in our discourse. Just not this one. I'm trying to think of the limit of humanity here, when we're all living in the metaverse and aren't tied to physical bodies anymore. Complete freedom, and the ability to disassociate ourselves from our corporeal bodies. Assume new identities at will. In the future, you'd ban the "RMS account" for misbehavior, but he'd be free to join again under a new one, free from the judgments and baggage of the old account. He'd just lack all of the accolades and gear he'd built up. What you're doing now is calling for RMS permadeath in meatspace. He can't restart. It's game over. Since there is no ability to restart IRL lives, why don't we have forgiveness as a feature? The US penal system has a notion of when punishments have been meted out. He's stepped down for several years. Was it not long enough of a punishment? Are we saying that some people may never forgive RMS? And that we're restricting his access indefinitely to satisfy the people who hold grudges eternally? What sort of bug in humanity is that? Maybe certain people think we should stop letting people out of jail. [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26708215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26708215
geofft 6y ago
> In doing this, I believe that the FSF board felt that punishment should have an end, especially in the case of the first punishment, and should include an opportunity for the punished to demonstrate that he has reformed his behavior. That's an entirely reasonable theory. Would the FSF care to confirm it? How come the FSF hasn't said anything about why Stallman is back on the board - not even an announcement? Why are they just making oblique references as if they're embarrassed by it? If the entirety of the FSF's statements are a tweet saying that LibrePlanet speakers didn't know about Stallman's "announcement," a statement about "governance," and several resignations, how are they giving an opportunity for Stallman to demonstrate that he has reformed his behavior? Why not put out a simple statement saying that Stallman is back on the board for such-and-such reasons? Frankly, if you looked only at the FSF's website and not at the rest of the internet, you'd be extremely confused what's going on and why there's a need for "work to improve governance at the FSF." It'd be great if this were a "learning opportunity" for Stallman, if it admitted the "possibility of reform". The FSF has taken zero steps to make it happen, and they are destabilizing the free software movement all the while.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > How come the FSF hasn't said anything about why Stallman is back on the board - not even an announcement? The entirety of the FSF top-tier management resigning over this (the people that actually would do the work of directing staff to put together an announcement, reviewing it, approving it, etc.) probably has some impact on the lack of a coordinate communication campaign from the FSF. The Board (whose also lost at least one member) doesn’t do the day-to-day work, or even directly manage that work.
peter_retief 6y ago
These humorless absurdities who have decided to enforce their rather colourless morality on everyone can go rot in hell.
- logicchains 6y ago
  Don't worry, most of those kind of people are so miserable that their life is already a living hell. That's why they're so keen to make the rest of us join them; misery loves company.
anonymousiam 6y ago
A well written piece by Perens, but his focus on Stallman's disability leaves the reader to reach the point on their own, which may be difficult for some (perhaps those with similar issues to Stallman). The point is that people (and corporations) should be more tolerant of the views of others. They are not required to agree, but they should not automatically push the "cancel" button. I don't agree with everything that Stallman believes (for example, GPL3), but I have no desire to shun him. I will likely be modded down for expressing my next opinion: The same thing applies to those who support(ed) President Donald Trump. There was once a day when most US citizens would respect the office of President even when they did not hold the same views as the occupant. Why is there so much hate for those (47%?) who supported, or still support him and his political philosophies?
- legulere 6y ago
  Can we not act like the Second World War and consequently Karl Popper’s “ The Open Society and Its Enemies” didn’t happen? You cannot run a tolerant society without being intolerant to those that want to destroy it. You are right, that there is too much intolerance in today’s society, but I don’t think that it’s the case here. I think Stallman’s public statements about child rape deserve all the shunning he got.
  - anonymousiam 6y ago
    How many people know exactly what was said, vs. reading some media report that "Stallman supported child rape?" https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/richard-stallman-returns-to-fsf-18-months-after-controversial-rape-comments/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/richard-stallman... After one person wrote that "Giuffre was 17 at the time; this makes it rape in the Virgin Islands," Stallman responded, "I think it is morally absurd to define 'rape' in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17."
    - legulere 6y ago
      I am very aware of the various things RMS said like the following: “I am sceptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children.” https://thenextweb.com/dd/2019/09/13/free-software-icon-richard-stallman-has-some-moronic-thoughts-about-pedophilia/amp/ https://thenextweb.com/dd/2019/09/13/free-software-icon-rich...
BiteCode_dev 6y ago
There is a conflict here: on one hand we want diversity, accept people with their differences, their handicap or education. On the other hand we want them to behave the same way we do, otherwise we reject them. So your company should have people with handicap, but that have no effect on others. And diverse genders, but you should consider them all the same, even if we know we have diverse bodies, needs and behaviors. And diverse cultural and religious background, but it should be ignored like if we all agreed on how life works. Living together do mean we have to live by common rules and try to fit, but you can't have your cake and both way: if you increase diversity, you will increase friction. If you ask for diversity and you want them to be just like you, think just like you, or act just like you, it's not going to work.
- warkdarrior 6y ago
  > we want them to behave the same way we do That is a false statement. We want people to behave respectfully of others, not the same way we do.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    I've rarely seen SJWs behave respectfully to others who weren't like them or were of some group they considered protected. It doesn't seem to be about respectfulness. It looks to be about a superficial diversity: of ethnicity, sex, gender, (dis-)ability etc, but not of thought.
    - stonogo 6y ago
      Seems more likely you just don't label the respectful people "SJWs" or some other pejorative.
      - luckylion 6y ago
        Possibly, but I don't see a lot of acceptance for actual diversity in diversity circles. There's a core they share (political stance, worldview) that's essential for being allowed. Diversity is allowed beyond that, but that's really no different than anywhere else. Trump fans of lots of different backgrounds get along great, because they share what they consider important. The diversity movement is primarily concerned with allowing diversity outside of the core issues, while strictly forbidding it within, and purging those who don't comply, regardless of their gender, sex, ethnicity etc.
neilk 6y ago
I don't think this argument makes sense. In fact if we follow it to its conclusion, it's an additional reason for RMS to be removed from his job. 1. RMS is not being punished by the FSF. He does not have any right to a particular job, even as the founder of an organization. Many people, including FSF board members, believed he was not competent to serve the organization in a leadership role. One could argue about whether getting excoriated on social media is a "non-judicial punishment". Perens seems to be decrying a rush to judgment, contrasting it with jury duty. But the most damning criticism is coming from people who worked with RMS closely, and who for years even shielded him from the consequences of his own actions. These people have thought long and hard about their experiences. 2. RMS is not obviously asking for any understanding nor promising to be better. RMS has publicly described himself as having autistic characteristics. He seems to be saying he's sub-clinical. But, if he believes that this is the source of his difficulties, this is a private matter between him and his employer. So, our ability to judge here is limited. However, at least from public statements, he does not seem to be invoking that defense, or asking for understanding. In fact, he doesn't seem to be even interested in any harms he has caused. Surely this would be step one? Perens may well believe that RMS' problem is autism. But it matters what RMS believes and does. If he really has a disability but is denying it has any impact, this is even more of a reason to remove him. 3. Frankly this entire argument does such a disservice to the many men and women who live with autism/Asperger's Syndrome. A lot of them do struggle with norms. But they also feel bad when they inadvertently cause others pain. And most of them find a modus vivendi with others. This seems very unlike how RMS' interactions have been described, including to me by people who've worked with him, and what I've also personally seen at public events. 4. Personally it makes me very sad that we're having this argument. I don't take any pleasure in seeing RMS removed from a position of honor. I think he's one of the greatest thinkers of his time, and documents like "The Right to Read" ought to be in textbooks. There ought to be a place for RMS in our discourse. Just not this one.
- jordigh 6y ago
  > RMS has publicly described himself as autistic Oh, has he? Last I heard he actually rejected that. When did he openly call himself autistic?
ChuckMcM 6y ago
I don't doubt that RMS can contribute to the free software foundation without putting him in a position where his handicaps will injure others. In a professional setting I helped manage an individual with similar challenges and focus. Our solution was to buffer them with a couple of "handler" individuals who would not trigger the individual's quirks, and who could pass their contributions on to the organization in a reliable way. My feelings on RMS is that he should not be on the board, and he should directly participate on any "official" communications channel, be it email or code reviewing. Rather, a channel should be provided for him to respond, and within that channel should be a process to capture the essence of the response that is important without the offensive bits.
dkdk8283 6y ago
This has little to do with RMS but instead the appalling attitude of those who are in favor of cancel culture. Historians have failed you: this behavior and mentality will lead to a dark dead end. We must be tolerant and even accepting of those with whom we disagree with. Opinions are fleeting, but we are all human and that won’t change in our lifetime.
- Arainach 6y ago
  You can tolerate people without putting them in positions of leadership. No one has a right to a seat on the FSF board - it's dependent on behavior in accordance with the organization's principles.
  - eecc 6y ago
    So who should have access to “position of leadership”. Self interested, condescending, cunning sociopaths or can we also have obsessive, unpleasantly naive but ethically consistent individuals?
jordigh 6y ago
Can we please stop armchair-diagnosing RMS and excusing his behaviour based on this armchair diagnosis? Or even worse, calling it a disability like Bruce Perens does, in some kind of effort to gain sympathy, or perhaps appeal to ADA? First of all, nobody has ever actually diagnosed RMS and he himself has rejected that folk diagnosis when offered to him. If dude wanted psychiatric help, he could get it. Second of all, the diagnosis, if it were accurate, is no excuse. Lots of people on the spectrum know how to behave. Finally, even if was autistic and even if we could excuse his behaviour by his autism, he's not fit to be in any kind of leadership position. Yelling at people when they use the wrong words, which is his main and constant strategy, does not help the cause of free software. Technological self-abnegation, while giving him an aura of sainthood, does little to actually put free software in the hands of users. Stallman can keep blogging if he wants, he can keep up his self-abnegation, but he doesn't have to be in the decision board of the FSF to do this.
- warkdarrior 6y ago
  You are probably referring to ADA not DACA, unless you think RMS is about to be deported.
  - jordigh 6y ago
    Thank you, fixed.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- bryanrasmussen 6y ago
  >If dude wanted psychiatric help, he could get it. Just to touch on this and not the other issues - many people who are diagnosable as having some problem refuse diagnosis, this does not mean they don't have the problem they could be diagnosed as having.
- wahern 6y ago
  > Yelling at people when they use the wrong words, which is his main and constant strategy, does not help the cause of free software. Arguably the reason you're using the term "free software" is because of RMS' incessant chastising. The only thing as relentless as RMS are the forces that continually eat away at the central thesis of his movement--the necessity for users to have access to the source code of the software they use as requisite for software freedom. Does the movement need RMS going forward? I don't know. I'm not even sure it can stay as strong as it is, regardless of his participation. I have more certainty, however, that it wouldn't be as successful as it was and currently is without him. His conflation of the utilitarian and political character of software was rather unique. Even today the vast majority of people find the comparison either impractical, trite, or otherwise inapposite. Comparable concepts, like Lessig's "code is law", aren't quite the same and in any event haven't had the staying power.
torthrowaway998 6y ago
There was another article about stallman 2 hours ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26707498 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26707498 Direct link: https://stallmansupport.org/ https://stallmansupport.org/ (it debunks various attacks against him) 2nd throwaway because tor accounts have a limited number of posts it seems.
CobrastanJorji 6y ago
Punishments should have limits, but the point of removing a toxic member of a team is not to punish the individual. If I hang out with a group of friends, and one of those friends repeatedly makes some of the rest of us uncomfortable, I will stop inviting that person to our gatherings. This is not meant as a rehabilitory or a punitive measure. It's simply a group of people who aren't comfortable with someone else's presence asking that person to leave. Stallman was removed because many found his presence unacceptable to their continued participation. Having removed him, that remains the case. In addition to being poorly reasoned, this article is also somewhat contradictory. First, it argues that shunning should be temporary because the shunned must be given a chance to prove that they have reformed their behavior. Then it argues that Mr. Stallman's behavior is clearly based in his handicap and accommodations must be made for it. These two arguments don't work together. If he can control his behavior, his handicap need not be accommodated. If he cannot, there is no point to reassessing whether he has reformed.
- logicchains 6y ago
  >Stallman was removed because many found his presence unacceptable to their continued participation. Were any of these people actually contributing in any meaningful sense, or just "participating"?
  - geofft 6y ago
    Yes, many of them were. Here's the lead developer of the HURD: https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-departure-of-rms-18e6a835fd84 https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-depa... Here's someone who spent about two decades of his life at the FSF, including as executive director, and won the FSF's award for contributions to free software on the same day that RMS announced his return: http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2019/10/15/fsf-rms.html http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2019/10/15/fsf-rms.html Here's a whole bunch of GNU project maintainers, publishing a statement on gnu.org: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-pr... Here's a couple of high-profile GCC contributors: https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235091.html https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235091.html https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235096.html https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235096.html
mjg59 6y ago
Reminder that a blanket statement that RMS is autistic is contradicted by RMS himself: https://www.computerworld.com/article/2551458/asperger-s-oxymoron.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2551458/asperger-s-oxy...
MisterBastahrd 6y ago
How exactly does one allow another to prove that they have reformed their role as a potential legal liability without exposing people to that person? The government enjoys sovereign immunity when it frees people who have served their jail time and it enjoys a monopoly of power. The FSF does not enjoy the same level of legal protection when RMS harasses women, nor does it have a monopoly on anything.
kstenerud 6y ago
What's interesting is that in this particular case, we did kind of get a sort of "jury" vote in the two open letters to the FSF: One asking that he be removed (3000 signatures), and one asking that he be kept on (5000 signatures). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Return_to_FSF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Return_to_FSF
- jordigh 6y ago
  The counterletter accepted signatures for longer than the original letter, and it was heavily promoted in the Eastern bloc, which is very sympathetic towards causes that exclude women and other minorities. The original letter is signed by many of us who actually write the free software and who are part of GNU. I recognise people in the original letter I've collaborated on GNU software with, people I've met at conferences, people I've worked on bug reports with. There are a few personalities in the counterletter, but if we're going by "jury of peers" there are far more peers in the original letter than the counterletter. The signatures in the two letters are a clear case of quantity vs quality.
  - kstenerud 6y ago
    Yes, yes, and I'm sure the other camp would have similar complaints about the quality of your camp's signatures and membership. This is how it always goes when people square off on emotional topics: Victory through decibels.
    - jordigh 6y ago
      One side of signatories is writing the free software we all use and has regularly and directly dealt with rms. The other side is shitposting in 4chan and probably has never had to meet rms. Yeah, the quality of the signatories is obvious.
      - kstenerud 6y ago
        Do you have evidence to support these allegations?
TeMPOraL 6y ago
In its introduction, the article contrasts "being able to decide what business you deal with" with "the non-judicial punishment of individuals". I'm not a fan how it simultaneously grouped it together - it's setting the scene up for others to do motte-and-bailey defense (using the business/voting facet to defend abuse towards individuals). But even more surprisingly, the article seems to be oblivious as to why cancellation has teeth - it involves chaining these two facets together. A bunch of Internet strangers shunning you or calling you names can be distressing, but is mostly inconsequential. The problem starts when the crowd issues or implies a threat - threat of weaponizing this "key part of having a free market" against organizations associated with the victim. Threat of amplifying a negative message to a larger crowd still, to the point it could impact a company's bottom-line, a foundation's mission. Only then the victim is being cancelled, as the groups around them cut ties to save themselves.
robinsoh 6y ago
I don't know any of the people involved. But seeing stuff like: "Mr. Stallman’s behavior clearly has a basis in his handicap. " This is a strong claim but seems to be made without any explaination or evidence and it is surprising that I see many here seem to accept that without questioning it. Would an equivalent defense be made for Robert Long, that man who just murdered those Asian spa girls? I'm curious if there's a possible equivalence of what Bruce Perens is saying to that Georgia sherrif saying "He'd had a bad day". Seems like sympathy for perpetrators is reserved only for certain persons.
renewiltord 6y ago
I'm on board with the free expression of individuals that they'll shun RMS and the FSF. Good. Let them. Copyleft will survive it. Open source will survive it. But I'm on the other side here. Personally, considering the sort of complaints leveled at the FSF (including the ludicrous nonsense that it's bad that one of the board members spends a lot of time and sweat on Wikipedia; or that RMS's toe-jam eating thing is some evidence of how he hurts people), I've flipped the bozo bit on these complainants. These are not evil things so even though some of those other things that are mentioned seem like evil things, if you mention these not-evil things in the same vein as the evil things, I am not going to believe you on either.
marsven_422 6y ago
This has nothing to do with RMS, this is a power flex by the same forces that made Linus "take a month off".
aortega 6y ago
I think we can all agree that RMS has been too abusive to corporations. Corporations that now push back in the form of twitter lobbyists.
- imposterreality 6y ago
  Bingo.
dsr_ 6y ago
The ADA requires reasonable accomodations, not unlimited accomodations. Reasonable accomodations are wheelchair ramps so they can enter your building, elevators for people who can't climb stairs, and changing your user interface so that people who can't see colors can operate it and people who can't see at all can use screen-readers. Where is the line to unreasonable accomodations? When a person permanently cannot do the essential features of the job: if you do not have a minimum physical strength and endurance, you cannot be a firefighter. If you can't comply with driving laws, you can't be a truck driver. And in the case of the FSF Board, I would argue that when RMS persistently behaves badly in public over the course of decades, he can't represent that organization in the way that thwy want to be represented. But all that is bullshit, because while I'm sure RMS feels like he's being punished, he has had decades to address this problem and he just isn't interested or capable. Either way, it's not a matter for the ADA -- and if RMS thinks it is, he should take it up with the ADA and settle that. Perens' argument is lacking.
- lamontcg 6y ago
  Defining his behavior as something protected by the ADA is getting deep into "affluenza" territory.
  - watwut 6y ago
    I had seen comments on that effect being popular on HN in latest discussions. Always as side point, so I am grad someone finally did it fully so that we can verbalize disagreement.
outsomnia 6y ago
Thanks for Perens for giving some useful insight into the broader "playground justice" that has become a serious problem. Challenge the popular boy and girls? They'll whip up a mob all too desperate to show their "virtue" so they don't get the same treatment. Whatever the original issue is becomes impossible to discuss, you're either "for 'em or agi'n 'em".
watwut 6y ago
Following is my ADA comment, with no relation to what RMS done or actually does not done. On the extreme end, ADA does not insist on blind people being art gallery painting curators. ADA also does not insist on people with very little abstract thinking and logic being programmers. Accommodation does not mean that company have to put unsuitable people to positions. That includes influential positions and men/women who have severe social issues. > Mr. Stallman likes women, but his interaction with them has been awkward and embarrassing in my personal presence, without ever reaching the level of forcing or violence. From all I know, this is painting Stallman in even worst light then his detractors? I mean, this sounds much worst then you think. It is good that he never got criminal, but the workplace line really should be lower. > his presence created an uncomfortable environment for women, which fits behavior I have witnessed I think that sub-issue here is that why no one told him off, why he was not listened. People who merely dont understand can be dealt with, really, by frank and direct instruction. It more then just existing for those people to actually influence the culture around them - it takes cooperation of others, it takes them having actual influential power and being happy about creating uncomfortable environment. Whether for women or men.
austincheney 6y ago
This is one of the strangest things I have ever read. In summary: Cancel culture is a great economic incentive to do better, but don’t use the name cancel culture and don’t apply it to Stallman because he has empathy problems, which are a handicap.
skinkestek 6y ago
Anyone wants another Mozilla? Running their core product into the ground despite insane levels of funding? Just make sure one chooses people based on agreeableness instead of based on merits an competence. (Still a Firefox user, it still is better for my use but less so for each year and I really wish nobody had discovered that donation that got the Internet hate mob to mobilize against Brendan.)
imposterreality 6y ago
This "crisis" is all so absurd. RMS is one of the greatest programmers of all time, if not the greatest. Fabrice Bellard is a script kiddie by comparison. How many of you use gcc? Emacs? You think he should be kicked out of the FSF? He founded the freaking FSF! All of you critics are a bunch of parasites. You either make room for the guy or start your own thing. The software world would be such a startlingly different place without him, this may be difficult to grasp for younger people. Things like Github may not even exist without him. I guarantee you a Github would not defend a youtube-dl in that RMS-free reality. Git itself wouldn't exist, or you'd have to pay for it. Even Git's creation story, via Linux, becomes unlikely in absence of a free software movement. He created an entire world of software. Given how things are going, with software eating the world (rapidly accelerating over the past year), he may very well be responsible for creating the world as we know it going forward. Everybody worships Steve Jobs because he wanted money. And people put up with his abuse because he made them money too. But there's no more money to be made from RMS, and his defenders are thinning. It's so upsetting to see an old man's life work ripped from his hands, for him to be treated as a nuisance (rather than lionized), but the world is not a good place.

147 points by upofadown 6y ago

> Mr. Stallman is personally known to me. I could testify that he is extremely obnoxious. Due to his handicap, he has little perception of what the feelings and reactions of others might be to his thoughts and actions... I was sat 1 meter away from Bruce at a convention when Stallman had stood up to interrupt the presentation from some marketing woman from google on a point of principle regarding an error she made in speech about the BSD license). He then turned his ire on Perens and publicly admonished him for his more pragmatic views on something related that I have now sadly forgotten. I mention only to say i know the kind of treatment Bruce got from Richard as I was in the sightline of the pointing and the high pitched unmistakable loud voice calling him out in a room of hundreds of people. He just laughed it off with a gesture. He seemed very affable and polite in our brief conversation. edit a google has turned up someone who took notes including some of the detail i gave above https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8941 https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8941

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comex 6y ago

> In doing this, I believe that the FSF board felt that punishment should have an end, especially in the case of the first punishment, and should include an opportunity for the punished to demonstrate that he has reformed his behavior. Has Stallman apologized for the behavior in question, or stated that he has in fact reformed? Or is this mere speculation?

echelon 6y ago

Richard Stallman will be punished until the day he dies. And then they will vandalize his grave. All I can do is to try not to commit crimes [1] myself, lest I be similarly removed from employment, stripped of accolade, and banished forever. [1] I'm LGBT and very open and inclusive with everyone (including democrats and republicans), but I seriously worry that eating meat might one day be frowned upon and punished. edit: the idea that maybe we should give him a chance is persecuted, too. Nevermind that our entire careers are built on his shoulders and that no US court has found him guilty of a crime -- off with his head!

peytn 6y ago
> I seriously worry that eating meat might one day be frowned upon and punished That’s perhaps too drastic and a little unprecedented. The trajectory we’re on I think leads to discouraging procreation in certain groups. A child that isn’t born is a lineage that doesn’t harm the climate. We’ve already witnessed a historic outpouring of the eugenic impulse to control disease. I think it’s most likely over the coming century we’ll discover genocide is okay as long as it happens in slow motion, since there is precedent for genocide.
chillfox 6y ago
People in leadership roles should be held to higher standards than normal employees.
logicchains 6y ago
>[1] I'm LGBT and very open and inclusive with everyone (including democrats and republicans), but I seriously worry that eating meat might one day be frowned upon and punished. If that happens you could just come to Asia. That cult of climate guilt is entirely a western things; in China people'd give someone weird looks for being vegetarian for non-religious reasons. And to the people coming to down vote this: there are a over a billion people who don't share your radical environmentalist views and never will, suck it up.

AussieWog93 6y ago

It seems a copout to blame his behaviour on his Autism. Plenty of people on the spectrum go about daily life without making grandiose public statements about pedophiles or eating toe jam in public - even for an Autistic person it's obvious that this will cause a negative reaction.

alex_young 6y ago
It’s called Autism Spectrum Disorder for a reason. There are many different ways an individual’s personality can be impacted by it.
- AussieWog93 6y ago
  Of course. But Stallman was quite eloquent and had a well-adjusted social network. Arguing that Stallman's neurological wiring made him completely unaware that, for example, having bad personal hygeine was off-putting and anti-social is ridiculous. He must have been told this literally hundreds of times by people he trusts.
aortega 6y ago
For people who says they are all for inclusion and equality, they seem to be quite selective in the type of personalities that they allowed to be in their group.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
DistressedDrone 6y ago
Indeed, being on the spectrum does not preclude being considerate, which he is most definitely not.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
shard972 6y ago

stonogo 6y ago

Bruce Perens maintains that Stallmen is employed by the FSF. According to all their tax filings, he has not ever drawn a salary. Perhaps those with stronger legal education than mine can answer: how does the ADA apply to boards?

square_usual 6y ago

I'm no fan of Stallman, but I do find it worrying that some companies can unilaterally decide to sink the FSF if they don't like what it's doing. Of course, any foundation with companies on its board is at risk for that, but the fact that people who support Free Software, who ideally should shun corporate control of software, are cheering it on is disappointing, and is directly due to the kind of easy judgement people are rendering upon each other.

deleted 6y ago
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staticassertion 6y ago
> I'm no fan of Stallman, but I do find it worrying that some companies can unilaterally decide to sink the FSF if they don't like what it's doing. Why? That's like, the entire basis of every organization, that supporters don't have to support it. If a company selling a product behaves in a way you don't want to support you stop buying, if a charity stops supporting a cause you stop supporting it, etc.
- throwaway8581 6y ago
  The real question is why every single major company in America is vigorously enforcing social norms that significant portions of the population, often a majority, don’t even agree with. This is very different than other eras.
  - eschaton 6y ago
    It’s curious that you think these norms are not widely held.
    - mindslight 6y ago
      I certainly hope that piling on to yellow journalism is not a widely held norm.
  - 6y ago

KingOfCoders 6y ago

How is a "You can't lead an organisation and be a role model if your views hurt a significant amount of people in the organisation" a non-judicial punishment? If you can't read or write you would also probably not lead a large organization, and it's not punishment. Can you rejoin if you have learned reading and writing? Yes. Stallman is not a janitor but in top management (I have the highest respect for janitors but they are not required to be a role model of the organization). "Thus, they are bound by the Americans with Disability Act and other applicable law to make accommodations for a handicapped employee." Totally agree, but I won't make a blind person the watchout guy on a ship. There are limits to inclusion. [Edit] HN you made me giggle this morning. This gets quite some downvotes and for a short time was Karma negative - so people try to cancel me with downvotes for my opinion because they think RMS is cancelled for his opinion. Believing two different things at the same time - or believing one thing by doing the opposite is the real turing test. Nice insight, thanks.

riffraff 6y ago
As I understand it, it is non judicial because there is no judiciary system involved. This doesn't imply it's not an irrational action, i.e. you may justifiably avoid a person/thing that is linked with immoral behavior even if there is no sentence (say, avoid bitcoin because of climate issues).
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  I think they were asking about the punishment part.
dkdk8283 6y ago
His views are not relevant. Should focus on his ability to contribute and keep personal beliefs out of the picture.
- enraged_camel 6y ago
  Except he didn’t keep his views to himself. He shared it with a ton of others, in writing.

tinus_hn 6y ago

> Thus, they are bound by the Americans with Disability Act and other applicable law to make accommodations for a handicapped employee. Does ADA require an airline to employ a blind pilot? Besides allowing his service dog? This essay starts with reason and ends with a slapstick statement equivalent to Walmart being required to keep employing a greeter with (movie cliche type) Tourette’s. There is no defined end to this non judicial punishment, especially not in this case where there has been no improvement in the cause and apparently there never will be. It’s not for mr. Perens to decide differently.

LVDOVICVS 6y ago
A blind pilot isn’t capable of doing the job of piloting.
- isaacimagine 6y ago
  You have to pass a visual exam for the AME to certify you as a pilot; once you get the certification, however, going blind later won't necessarily revoke it.
- tinus_hn 6y ago
  Is an extremely obnoxious man capable of doing the job of a publicly visible board member?
  - Natsu 6y ago
    Didn't he found the organization to begin with?
    - hollerith 6y ago
      Yes.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    If history is any indication, then yes, he can. He had created the movement that has transformed the industry forever and motivated dosens of thousands developers to contribute their efforts towards Free Software. And he did it because of the very qualities he is vilified now: persistence, pedantry, having strong opinions.

eyelidlessness 6y ago

RMS is abusive. I'm autistic too. When I've behaved in similar ways, I've been similarly forced to account for my behavior. I resent the fact that ostensible defense of him as a person on the spectrum is so ideological. I distrust most of his defenders' sincerity when they talk about his neurodivergence, and I don't consider them allies.

aortega 6y ago
You clearly are not an expert on autism. The disease is a huge spectrum of different behaviors, from almost normal, to severe retardation. I've seen RMS in real life, he's borderline can't take care of himself, that's not being abusive.
- geofft 6y ago
  I've met RMS in real life and talked to him on multiple occasions. He can absolutely take care of himself and it's a little insulting to RMS to say that he can't. (Who took care of him between when he left his job at MIT and when the FSF got enough funding to hire him an assistant, if he wasn't taking care of himself?)
  - dkdk8283 6y ago
    Context is everything. It’s unfair to judge someone in such a harsh manner. Your anecdotal observations are just that: anecdotal observations. People with a manic depressive disorder can have both great highs and deep lows at different periods. We should be tolerant of everyone as much as we can.
  - aortega 6y ago
    Not everyone is fine all of the time, and autistic personalities can get high and lows. To me, he seem quite normal and a cool guy that likes make totally inappropriate jokes or comments (that makes them even more funny), but I'm a little autistic myself.
    - 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

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legulere 6y ago

The FSF looks even more like a sect if you do mental gymnastics like that for your former guru. RMS publicly defended child rape. Someone like that should not get to define what freedom means. RMS has all the right not to get attacked about his awkward behavior, but he has to feel the consequences on his ideological thought.

echelon 6y ago
> should not get to define what freedom means. This little bit right here sounds fascist. I'm not going to defend RMS' words or actions (I don't even know what the entire case against him is, and the more extreme this gets the less I want to pry into his personal life). I do think people are losing their minds to assassinate the guy. RMS has given us our entire industry and careers. Without free software, you wouldn't have a job. I wouldn't either. Take a moment and let the gravity of that sink in. (take a moment) He apologized and spent several years away from the organization he founded. Why does it have to be the rest of his natural life? We're murdering him and taking his baby. Why do people nowadays believe in permanent assassination of character? Unending punishment? People have redemption arcs. The stupid movies, books, and tv shows that everyone in this thread watches have forgiveness and grace in them. Why do we deny them to our fellow humans? I'm an atheist, but Jesus preached against this kind of thing, and I think we could learn from some of his teachings. Throwing stones and forgiveness. ========================================================= I got cut off by the Hacker News negative karma filter for the downvotes I got, but I typed out a comment I was pretty happy with. (It was to this comment [2]) I'll include it here instead: > There ought to be a place for RMS in our discourse. Just not this one. I'm trying to think of the limit of humanity here, when we're all living in the metaverse and aren't tied to physical bodies anymore. Complete freedom, and the ability to disassociate ourselves from our corporeal bodies. Assume new identities at will. In the future, you'd ban the "RMS account" for misbehavior, but he'd be free to join again under a new one, free from the judgments and baggage of the old account. He'd just lack all of the accolades and gear he'd built up. What you're doing now is calling for RMS permadeath in meatspace. He can't restart. It's game over. Since there is no ability to restart IRL lives, why don't we have forgiveness as a feature? The US penal system has a notion of when punishments have been meted out. He's stepped down for several years. Was it not long enough of a punishment? Are we saying that some people may never forgive RMS? And that we're restricting his access indefinitely to satisfy the people who hold grudges eternally? What sort of bug in humanity is that? Maybe certain people think we should stop letting people out of jail. [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26708215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26708215

geofft 6y ago

> In doing this, I believe that the FSF board felt that punishment should have an end, especially in the case of the first punishment, and should include an opportunity for the punished to demonstrate that he has reformed his behavior. That's an entirely reasonable theory. Would the FSF care to confirm it? How come the FSF hasn't said anything about why Stallman is back on the board - not even an announcement? Why are they just making oblique references as if they're embarrassed by it? If the entirety of the FSF's statements are a tweet saying that LibrePlanet speakers didn't know about Stallman's "announcement," a statement about "governance," and several resignations, how are they giving an opportunity for Stallman to demonstrate that he has reformed his behavior? Why not put out a simple statement saying that Stallman is back on the board for such-and-such reasons? Frankly, if you looked only at the FSF's website and not at the rest of the internet, you'd be extremely confused what's going on and why there's a need for "work to improve governance at the FSF." It'd be great if this were a "learning opportunity" for Stallman, if it admitted the "possibility of reform". The FSF has taken zero steps to make it happen, and they are destabilizing the free software movement all the while.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> How come the FSF hasn't said anything about why Stallman is back on the board - not even an announcement? The entirety of the FSF top-tier management resigning over this (the people that actually would do the work of directing staff to put together an announcement, reviewing it, approving it, etc.) probably has some impact on the lack of a coordinate communication campaign from the FSF. The Board (whose also lost at least one member) doesn’t do the day-to-day work, or even directly manage that work.

peter_retief 6y ago

These humorless absurdities who have decided to enforce their rather colourless morality on everyone can go rot in hell.

logicchains 6y ago
Don't worry, most of those kind of people are so miserable that their life is already a living hell. That's why they're so keen to make the rest of us join them; misery loves company.

anonymousiam 6y ago

A well written piece by Perens, but his focus on Stallman's disability leaves the reader to reach the point on their own, which may be difficult for some (perhaps those with similar issues to Stallman). The point is that people (and corporations) should be more tolerant of the views of others. They are not required to agree, but they should not automatically push the "cancel" button. I don't agree with everything that Stallman believes (for example, GPL3), but I have no desire to shun him. I will likely be modded down for expressing my next opinion: The same thing applies to those who support(ed) President Donald Trump. There was once a day when most US citizens would respect the office of President even when they did not hold the same views as the occupant. Why is there so much hate for those (47%?) who supported, or still support him and his political philosophies?

legulere 6y ago
Can we not act like the Second World War and consequently Karl Popper’s “ The Open Society and Its Enemies” didn’t happen? You cannot run a tolerant society without being intolerant to those that want to destroy it. You are right, that there is too much intolerance in today’s society, but I don’t think that it’s the case here. I think Stallman’s public statements about child rape deserve all the shunning he got.
- anonymousiam 6y ago
  How many people know exactly what was said, vs. reading some media report that "Stallman supported child rape?" https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/richard-stallman-returns-to-fsf-18-months-after-controversial-rape-comments/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/richard-stallman... After one person wrote that "Giuffre was 17 at the time; this makes it rape in the Virgin Islands," Stallman responded, "I think it is morally absurd to define 'rape' in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17."
  - legulere 6y ago
    I am very aware of the various things RMS said like the following: “I am sceptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children.” https://thenextweb.com/dd/2019/09/13/free-software-icon-richard-stallman-has-some-moronic-thoughts-about-pedophilia/amp/ https://thenextweb.com/dd/2019/09/13/free-software-icon-rich...

BiteCode_dev 6y ago

There is a conflict here: on one hand we want diversity, accept people with their differences, their handicap or education. On the other hand we want them to behave the same way we do, otherwise we reject them. So your company should have people with handicap, but that have no effect on others. And diverse genders, but you should consider them all the same, even if we know we have diverse bodies, needs and behaviors. And diverse cultural and religious background, but it should be ignored like if we all agreed on how life works. Living together do mean we have to live by common rules and try to fit, but you can't have your cake and both way: if you increase diversity, you will increase friction. If you ask for diversity and you want them to be just like you, think just like you, or act just like you, it's not going to work.

warkdarrior 6y ago
> we want them to behave the same way we do That is a false statement. We want people to behave respectfully of others, not the same way we do.
- luckylion 6y ago
  I've rarely seen SJWs behave respectfully to others who weren't like them or were of some group they considered protected. It doesn't seem to be about respectfulness. It looks to be about a superficial diversity: of ethnicity, sex, gender, (dis-)ability etc, but not of thought.
  - stonogo 6y ago
    Seems more likely you just don't label the respectful people "SJWs" or some other pejorative.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      Possibly, but I don't see a lot of acceptance for actual diversity in diversity circles. There's a core they share (political stance, worldview) that's essential for being allowed. Diversity is allowed beyond that, but that's really no different than anywhere else. Trump fans of lots of different backgrounds get along great, because they share what they consider important. The diversity movement is primarily concerned with allowing diversity outside of the core issues, while strictly forbidding it within, and purging those who don't comply, regardless of their gender, sex, ethnicity etc.

neilk 6y ago

I don't think this argument makes sense. In fact if we follow it to its conclusion, it's an additional reason for RMS to be removed from his job. 1. RMS is not being punished by the FSF. He does not have any right to a particular job, even as the founder of an organization. Many people, including FSF board members, believed he was not competent to serve the organization in a leadership role. One could argue about whether getting excoriated on social media is a "non-judicial punishment". Perens seems to be decrying a rush to judgment, contrasting it with jury duty. But the most damning criticism is coming from people who worked with RMS closely, and who for years even shielded him from the consequences of his own actions. These people have thought long and hard about their experiences. 2. RMS is not obviously asking for any understanding nor promising to be better. RMS has publicly described himself as having autistic characteristics. He seems to be saying he's sub-clinical. But, if he believes that this is the source of his difficulties, this is a private matter between him and his employer. So, our ability to judge here is limited. However, at least from public statements, he does not seem to be invoking that defense, or asking for understanding. In fact, he doesn't seem to be even interested in any harms he has caused. Surely this would be step one? Perens may well believe that RMS' problem is autism. But it matters what RMS believes and does. If he really has a disability but is denying it has any impact, this is even more of a reason to remove him. 3. Frankly this entire argument does such a disservice to the many men and women who live with autism/Asperger's Syndrome. A lot of them do struggle with norms. But they also feel bad when they inadvertently cause others pain. And most of them find a modus vivendi with others. This seems very unlike how RMS' interactions have been described, including to me by people who've worked with him, and what I've also personally seen at public events. 4. Personally it makes me very sad that we're having this argument. I don't take any pleasure in seeing RMS removed from a position of honor. I think he's one of the greatest thinkers of his time, and documents like "The Right to Read" ought to be in textbooks. There ought to be a place for RMS in our discourse. Just not this one.

jordigh 6y ago
> RMS has publicly described himself as autistic Oh, has he? Last I heard he actually rejected that. When did he openly call himself autistic?

ChuckMcM 6y ago

I don't doubt that RMS can contribute to the free software foundation without putting him in a position where his handicaps will injure others. In a professional setting I helped manage an individual with similar challenges and focus. Our solution was to buffer them with a couple of "handler" individuals who would not trigger the individual's quirks, and who could pass their contributions on to the organization in a reliable way. My feelings on RMS is that he should not be on the board, and he should directly participate on any "official" communications channel, be it email or code reviewing. Rather, a channel should be provided for him to respond, and within that channel should be a process to capture the essence of the response that is important without the offensive bits.

dkdk8283 6y ago

This has little to do with RMS but instead the appalling attitude of those who are in favor of cancel culture. Historians have failed you: this behavior and mentality will lead to a dark dead end. We must be tolerant and even accepting of those with whom we disagree with. Opinions are fleeting, but we are all human and that won’t change in our lifetime.

Arainach 6y ago
You can tolerate people without putting them in positions of leadership. No one has a right to a seat on the FSF board - it's dependent on behavior in accordance with the organization's principles.
- eecc 6y ago
  So who should have access to “position of leadership”. Self interested, condescending, cunning sociopaths or can we also have obsessive, unpleasantly naive but ethically consistent individuals?

jordigh 6y ago

Can we please stop armchair-diagnosing RMS and excusing his behaviour based on this armchair diagnosis? Or even worse, calling it a disability like Bruce Perens does, in some kind of effort to gain sympathy, or perhaps appeal to ADA? First of all, nobody has ever actually diagnosed RMS and he himself has rejected that folk diagnosis when offered to him. If dude wanted psychiatric help, he could get it. Second of all, the diagnosis, if it were accurate, is no excuse. Lots of people on the spectrum know how to behave. Finally, even if was autistic and even if we could excuse his behaviour by his autism, he's not fit to be in any kind of leadership position. Yelling at people when they use the wrong words, which is his main and constant strategy, does not help the cause of free software. Technological self-abnegation, while giving him an aura of sainthood, does little to actually put free software in the hands of users. Stallman can keep blogging if he wants, he can keep up his self-abnegation, but he doesn't have to be in the decision board of the FSF to do this.

warkdarrior 6y ago
You are probably referring to ADA not DACA, unless you think RMS is about to be deported.
- jordigh 6y ago
  Thank you, fixed.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
bryanrasmussen 6y ago
>If dude wanted psychiatric help, he could get it. Just to touch on this and not the other issues - many people who are diagnosable as having some problem refuse diagnosis, this does not mean they don't have the problem they could be diagnosed as having.
wahern 6y ago
> Yelling at people when they use the wrong words, which is his main and constant strategy, does not help the cause of free software. Arguably the reason you're using the term "free software" is because of RMS' incessant chastising. The only thing as relentless as RMS are the forces that continually eat away at the central thesis of his movement--the necessity for users to have access to the source code of the software they use as requisite for software freedom. Does the movement need RMS going forward? I don't know. I'm not even sure it can stay as strong as it is, regardless of his participation. I have more certainty, however, that it wouldn't be as successful as it was and currently is without him. His conflation of the utilitarian and political character of software was rather unique. Even today the vast majority of people find the comparison either impractical, trite, or otherwise inapposite. Comparable concepts, like Lessig's "code is law", aren't quite the same and in any event haven't had the staying power.

torthrowaway998 6y ago

There was another article about stallman 2 hours ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26707498 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26707498 Direct link: https://stallmansupport.org/ https://stallmansupport.org/ (it debunks various attacks against him) 2nd throwaway because tor accounts have a limited number of posts it seems.

CobrastanJorji 6y ago

Punishments should have limits, but the point of removing a toxic member of a team is not to punish the individual. If I hang out with a group of friends, and one of those friends repeatedly makes some of the rest of us uncomfortable, I will stop inviting that person to our gatherings. This is not meant as a rehabilitory or a punitive measure. It's simply a group of people who aren't comfortable with someone else's presence asking that person to leave. Stallman was removed because many found his presence unacceptable to their continued participation. Having removed him, that remains the case. In addition to being poorly reasoned, this article is also somewhat contradictory. First, it argues that shunning should be temporary because the shunned must be given a chance to prove that they have reformed their behavior. Then it argues that Mr. Stallman's behavior is clearly based in his handicap and accommodations must be made for it. These two arguments don't work together. If he can control his behavior, his handicap need not be accommodated. If he cannot, there is no point to reassessing whether he has reformed.

logicchains 6y ago
>Stallman was removed because many found his presence unacceptable to their continued participation. Were any of these people actually contributing in any meaningful sense, or just "participating"?
- geofft 6y ago
  Yes, many of them were. Here's the lead developer of the HURD: https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-departure-of-rms-18e6a835fd84 https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-depa... Here's someone who spent about two decades of his life at the FSF, including as executive director, and won the FSF's award for contributions to free software on the same day that RMS announced his return: http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2019/10/15/fsf-rms.html http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2019/10/15/fsf-rms.html Here's a whole bunch of GNU project maintainers, publishing a statement on gnu.org: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-pr... Here's a couple of high-profile GCC contributors: https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235091.html https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235091.html https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235096.html https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235096.html

mjg59 6y ago

Reminder that a blanket statement that RMS is autistic is contradicted by RMS himself: https://www.computerworld.com/article/2551458/asperger-s-oxymoron.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2551458/asperger-s-oxy...

MisterBastahrd 6y ago

How exactly does one allow another to prove that they have reformed their role as a potential legal liability without exposing people to that person? The government enjoys sovereign immunity when it frees people who have served their jail time and it enjoys a monopoly of power. The FSF does not enjoy the same level of legal protection when RMS harasses women, nor does it have a monopoly on anything.

kstenerud 6y ago

What's interesting is that in this particular case, we did kind of get a sort of "jury" vote in the two open letters to the FSF: One asking that he be removed (3000 signatures), and one asking that he be kept on (5000 signatures). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Return_to_FSF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Return_to_FSF

jordigh 6y ago
The counterletter accepted signatures for longer than the original letter, and it was heavily promoted in the Eastern bloc, which is very sympathetic towards causes that exclude women and other minorities. The original letter is signed by many of us who actually write the free software and who are part of GNU. I recognise people in the original letter I've collaborated on GNU software with, people I've met at conferences, people I've worked on bug reports with. There are a few personalities in the counterletter, but if we're going by "jury of peers" there are far more peers in the original letter than the counterletter. The signatures in the two letters are a clear case of quantity vs quality.
- kstenerud 6y ago
  Yes, yes, and I'm sure the other camp would have similar complaints about the quality of your camp's signatures and membership. This is how it always goes when people square off on emotional topics: Victory through decibels.
  - jordigh 6y ago
    One side of signatories is writing the free software we all use and has regularly and directly dealt with rms. The other side is shitposting in 4chan and probably has never had to meet rms. Yeah, the quality of the signatories is obvious.
    - kstenerud 6y ago
      Do you have evidence to support these allegations?

TeMPOraL 6y ago

In its introduction, the article contrasts "being able to decide what business you deal with" with "the non-judicial punishment of individuals". I'm not a fan how it simultaneously grouped it together - it's setting the scene up for others to do motte-and-bailey defense (using the business/voting facet to defend abuse towards individuals). But even more surprisingly, the article seems to be oblivious as to why cancellation has teeth - it involves chaining these two facets together. A bunch of Internet strangers shunning you or calling you names can be distressing, but is mostly inconsequential. The problem starts when the crowd issues or implies a threat - threat of weaponizing this "key part of having a free market" against organizations associated with the victim. Threat of amplifying a negative message to a larger crowd still, to the point it could impact a company's bottom-line, a foundation's mission. Only then the victim is being cancelled, as the groups around them cut ties to save themselves.

robinsoh 6y ago

I don't know any of the people involved. But seeing stuff like: "Mr. Stallman’s behavior clearly has a basis in his handicap. " This is a strong claim but seems to be made without any explaination or evidence and it is surprising that I see many here seem to accept that without questioning it. Would an equivalent defense be made for Robert Long, that man who just murdered those Asian spa girls? I'm curious if there's a possible equivalence of what Bruce Perens is saying to that Georgia sherrif saying "He'd had a bad day". Seems like sympathy for perpetrators is reserved only for certain persons.

renewiltord 6y ago

I'm on board with the free expression of individuals that they'll shun RMS and the FSF. Good. Let them. Copyleft will survive it. Open source will survive it. But I'm on the other side here. Personally, considering the sort of complaints leveled at the FSF (including the ludicrous nonsense that it's bad that one of the board members spends a lot of time and sweat on Wikipedia; or that RMS's toe-jam eating thing is some evidence of how he hurts people), I've flipped the bozo bit on these complainants. These are not evil things so even though some of those other things that are mentioned seem like evil things, if you mention these not-evil things in the same vein as the evil things, I am not going to believe you on either.

marsven_422 6y ago

This has nothing to do with RMS, this is a power flex by the same forces that made Linus "take a month off".

aortega 6y ago

I think we can all agree that RMS has been too abusive to corporations. Corporations that now push back in the form of twitter lobbyists.

imposterreality 6y ago
Bingo.

dsr_ 6y ago

The ADA requires reasonable accomodations, not unlimited accomodations. Reasonable accomodations are wheelchair ramps so they can enter your building, elevators for people who can't climb stairs, and changing your user interface so that people who can't see colors can operate it and people who can't see at all can use screen-readers. Where is the line to unreasonable accomodations? When a person permanently cannot do the essential features of the job: if you do not have a minimum physical strength and endurance, you cannot be a firefighter. If you can't comply with driving laws, you can't be a truck driver. And in the case of the FSF Board, I would argue that when RMS persistently behaves badly in public over the course of decades, he can't represent that organization in the way that thwy want to be represented. But all that is bullshit, because while I'm sure RMS feels like he's being punished, he has had decades to address this problem and he just isn't interested or capable. Either way, it's not a matter for the ADA -- and if RMS thinks it is, he should take it up with the ADA and settle that. Perens' argument is lacking.

lamontcg 6y ago
Defining his behavior as something protected by the ADA is getting deep into "affluenza" territory.
- watwut 6y ago
  I had seen comments on that effect being popular on HN in latest discussions. Always as side point, so I am grad someone finally did it fully so that we can verbalize disagreement.

outsomnia 6y ago

Thanks for Perens for giving some useful insight into the broader "playground justice" that has become a serious problem. Challenge the popular boy and girls? They'll whip up a mob all too desperate to show their "virtue" so they don't get the same treatment. Whatever the original issue is becomes impossible to discuss, you're either "for 'em or agi'n 'em".

watwut 6y ago

Following is my ADA comment, with no relation to what RMS done or actually does not done. On the extreme end, ADA does not insist on blind people being art gallery painting curators. ADA also does not insist on people with very little abstract thinking and logic being programmers. Accommodation does not mean that company have to put unsuitable people to positions. That includes influential positions and men/women who have severe social issues. > Mr. Stallman likes women, but his interaction with them has been awkward and embarrassing in my personal presence, without ever reaching the level of forcing or violence. From all I know, this is painting Stallman in even worst light then his detractors? I mean, this sounds much worst then you think. It is good that he never got criminal, but the workplace line really should be lower. > his presence created an uncomfortable environment for women, which fits behavior I have witnessed I think that sub-issue here is that why no one told him off, why he was not listened. People who merely dont understand can be dealt with, really, by frank and direct instruction. It more then just existing for those people to actually influence the culture around them - it takes cooperation of others, it takes them having actual influential power and being happy about creating uncomfortable environment. Whether for women or men.

austincheney 6y ago

This is one of the strangest things I have ever read. In summary: Cancel culture is a great economic incentive to do better, but don’t use the name cancel culture and don’t apply it to Stallman because he has empathy problems, which are a handicap.

skinkestek 6y ago

Anyone wants another Mozilla? Running their core product into the ground despite insane levels of funding? Just make sure one chooses people based on agreeableness instead of based on merits an competence. (Still a Firefox user, it still is better for my use but less so for each year and I really wish nobody had discovered that donation that got the Internet hate mob to mobilize against Brendan.)

imposterreality 6y ago

This "crisis" is all so absurd. RMS is one of the greatest programmers of all time, if not the greatest. Fabrice Bellard is a script kiddie by comparison. How many of you use gcc? Emacs? You think he should be kicked out of the FSF? He founded the freaking FSF! All of you critics are a bunch of parasites. You either make room for the guy or start your own thing. The software world would be such a startlingly different place without him, this may be difficult to grasp for younger people. Things like Github may not even exist without him. I guarantee you a Github would not defend a youtube-dl in that RMS-free reality. Git itself wouldn't exist, or you'd have to pay for it. Even Git's creation story, via Linux, becomes unlikely in absence of a free software movement. He created an entire world of software. Given how things are going, with software eating the world (rapidly accelerating over the past year), he may very well be responsible for creating the world as we know it going forward. Everybody worships Steve Jobs because he wanted money. And people put up with his abuse because he made them money too. But there's no more money to be made from RMS, and his defenders are thinning. It's so upsetting to see an old man's life work ripped from his hands, for him to be treated as a nuisance (rather than lionized), but the world is not a good place.