18 ms·
The cesspool of the internet is to be found in a village in North Holland
- t0mas88 6y agoNorth Holland is quickly rising in datacenter fame... They also have an ongoing conflict between local and higher level government about Microsoft building a huge datacenter and using all their renewable (wind) energy.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- stingraycharles 6y agoCan confirm, it’s kind of ridiculous to build all kinds of renewable energy sources only to have them cause a massive increase in datacenter electricity usage, because they want to become 100% renewable. It would maybe be OK if they weren’t subsidized as heavily.
- 542458 6y agoHonestly, this sounds like a “don’t hate the player, hate the game” thing to me. If you subsidize something, IMO it should come as no surprise that people want to take advantage of that subsidy. If people they don’t want to use that subsidy are using it, they probably should have written the terms and conditions more explicitly.
- stingraycharles 6y agoOf course, I’m not blaming Microsoft at all, it’s just smart business on their part. I blame the regulators for not having the foresight to codify into some law that would prevent this situation.
- kazen44 6y agoAlso, the electricty grid around amsterdam is basically filled to the brim, and there has been a ban on expending datacenters in the area because of energy concerns. In my opinion this is quite a good thing, considering this would ditribute the datacenters more across the netherlands.
- duxup 6y agoMan that sounds bit like: "We think people should use renewable energy!" "Oh no, we didn't mean them!"
- MomoXenosaga 6y agoSafe and boring, too much water and wind, everyone speaks English, government will help you evade the IRS. Its basically heaven for data centers.
- Reason077 6y ago> "Armin received a bottle of jenever in thanks. „But the customs made me throw it away before the return flight. I couldn’t even take a sip.”" It would have been airport security that made him throw it away, not customs. At that time, the UK was part of the customs union, so there were no customs on a flight between the Netherlands and UK.
- raverbashing 6y agoYes (he should have known not to take liquids as hand-luggage on a flight) Edit: as hand-luggage
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- toomuchtodo 6y agoCan you not take spirits, wine, or beer (sealed) on a flight in the EU? EDIT: Removed question about duty free, answered by replies below. Odd, as in the US, there is no limit if in your checked baggage if below 24% ABV, and 5 liters if 24% - 70% (carry on has much stricter limits [3.4oz or less that can fit comfortably in one quart-sized, clear, zip-top bag], but is still permitted). https://www.tsa.gov/blog/2019/06/21/tsa-travel-tip-traveling-alcohol https://www.tsa.gov/blog/2019/06/21/tsa-travel-tip-traveling...
- Ekaros 6y agoThey are after the checkpoints and they are marked. So you can take them on board. But that likely won't work for next flight if you have to through security again... Also some airlines sell stuff that is directly deposited on your seat.
- tsimionescu 6y agoYou can buy it from a duty-free shop even if you have multiple flights, even if you have to transfer out of the security area - they seal it in a special bag with receipts attached; when you go to your next security check-in, you present the sealed bag, and they check if it has been less than 24h since it was purchased, they inspect the seals, and they let you through if everything is in order.
- fallingknife 6y ago> When the hoster receives an official request from the US to remove copyrighted materials – a DMCA takedown notice – the men do nothing about it, says a person who saw it happen. „DMCAs are just tossed in the wastepaper basket.” Subletters even advertise this ‘service’. „DMCA ignored” reads one advertisement offering space in the „state of the art Ecatel DataCenter, located in Amsterdam”. The Dutch hosting company doesn't obey US law. My god! Can you believe these assholes? Running a hosting company that just hosts, and doesn't snoop into what their customers are doing? And how dare they make enforcement agencies actually go through the required legal processes to enforce the law!
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- vonwoodson 6y agoCopyright laws are international. If you think WIPO won’t enforce a DMCA claim because “American laws don’t apply outside of the US” (Bwahahahaha! Ha hahah! gasp HAHAH!! Ha! Ha! Ahh heh heh heh... oh, my...) you’re kidding yourself. https://www.wipo.int/ https://www.wipo.int/
- zabzonk 6y agoWIPO don't "enforce" anything - they are not like agents of SHIELD. Worked for WIPO as a consultant back in the 90s.
- toast0 6y agoYou can't enforce a DMCA claim against an entity without ties to the US. You can enforce a copyright claim against an entity in a jurisdiction that respects copyright, but you're going to need to use that jurisdiction's procedures. I'm sure these companies don't throwout local court summons, but a lot of copyright holders (or their agents) send out DMCA claims and don't follow through beyond that.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> You can't enforce a DMCA claim against an entity without ties to the US a “DMCA claim" isn’t really the issue, the DMCA safe harbor (takedowns aren’t a basis for claims, but for safe harbor from claims against the provider) doesn’t apply outside of US law. To the extent another jurisdiction has provider liability, following US DMCA takedown rules won't protect you from it.
- fireeyed 6y agoThe hosting company could be a cesspool but I just checked one of the news blog site the article attributed to ‘right wing radicals’. The content looks like Dutch version of Buzzfeed or TMZ https://vizieroplinks.org/ https://vizieroplinks.org/
- radicalbyte 6y agoA version of Buzzfeed who put letter bombs through left-winger's mailboxes, regularly make death threats to left-wing politicians and generally act like a they're living in some third world anarchist state.
- KirbyTetro 6y agoThese issues are endemic to any platform. Even mainstream blogging sites like Tumblr had issues with the large quantities of child pornography being shared by the users. It's the users posting illegal content that should be held accountable not the platform owners.
- polishdude20 6y agoYeah isn't this akin to say, posting child pornography on electrical poles in the city and then blaming the city for it?
- luckylion 6y agoNo. The servers in the data center are rented to specific clients. If these clients commit crimes and the DC operator knows about it but chooses not to shut down the offenders, that's their business feature.
- polishdude20 6y agoI'm considering the previous posters comment on how the users who post illegal materials should be responsible, not the platform. But yeah that makes sense. In this case it would be as if the city knew about the child pornography on the street but decided not to do anything about it.
- read_if_gay_ 6y agoBut also the city is required to check all the light poles for CP constantly.
- luckylion 6y agoNot really. More like the city rents out the light poles to companies who can staple messages to them. Some companies put up CP. The city then tries their best to not shut them down, and protects these companies because they pay rates that are way above market. I.e. the "not taking it down" is part of the deal.
- iandanforth 6y agoHosting center known to multiple nations as a hotbed for illicit activity that surprisingly hasn't been shut down? Yeah that's a compromised system.
- h2odragon 6y agoIt makes life simpler, when the usual suspects are all in one easy to watch place.
- markdown 6y agoNorth Holland? More like Hamsterdam.
- pindab0ter 6y agoI get the The Wire reference, but I don’t think it applies here.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- aaomidi 6y ago50% of known CP is hosted in Netherlands. A country smaller than New York state.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> 50% of known CP is hosted in Netherlands. Does that mean “CP is hosted disproportionately in the Netherlands” or “CP hosted in the Netherlands is disproportionately likely to be discovered”?
- InCoffeeWeTrust 6y agoThis statistic is according to the British Internet Watch Foundation. Uncovering sources of CP is done pretty much equally for all countries considering the nature of the distribution of content and how it is uncovered and traced back. Here's an article describing the procedure and how the statistic was calculated: https://www.tellerreport.com/life/--why-is-there-so-much-child-porn-on-dutch-servers--.Hk0GDilj4.html https://www.tellerreport.com/life/--why-is-there-so-much-chi...
- KirbyTetro 6y agoThe report seems to indicate that the majority of that number came from one site. > "In 2018, slightly more than 200,000 links with possible child pornography were investigated," explains Wido Potters of industry organization ISPConnect Netherlands. "Of the reports that ultimately concerned child pornography, 80 percent were on an image board."
- orhmeh09 6y agoAlso a hotspot for drugs trafficking, yet with a pristine official record of corruption, ranking as one of the ten least corrupt countries in the world. These seem incongruous, somehow.
- rocqua 6y agoThere has been movement and cries for help about criminal influence at the municipal level. With cases of criminals getting elected, or mayor's being threatened for taking action against criminals. These have been listened to, and a campaign to undermine criminality by law enforcement has been setup with moderate success. The issue is known in government and action is being taken. At the same time, our value and expertise is largely in logistics. Government tries to balance economic interests against crime fighting. Meanwhile we are a huge logistics hub with a relatively small police force (cause we are a small country). So it makes sense that we are attractive for criminals. What worries me most is the port of Rotterdam. It is big, vital, and known to have quite a large criminal element embedded in the workforce. Fixing that whilst keeping the port operational is probably quite difficult.
- sergiotapia 6y agoI'm glad they wipe their asses with DMCA. They have nothing to do with the USA.
- rowanG077 6y agoDamn. Seems like I found the adres where I will get servers when I need them.
- InCoffeeWeTrust 6y ago... you read an entire article detailing the hosting of child porn and this is the conclusion you've arrived at?
- rowanG077 6y agoYes definitely. It seems to me the hoster does everything that is required of it by law. Child porn is horrible but that doesn't mean the hoster should be responsible of policing the servers. Law enforcement must go after the person who rented the server. That is the source of the problem. Going after the hoster is nothing but symptom relief.
- tgv 6y agoThat position is too naive to be honest.
- rowanG077 6y agoI think the reverse is too naive. We see the exact abhorrent results that occurs when hosters are made liable. Look at youtube for example. There is no novel content any more. Everything that could offend someone is removes or demonitized. What good does forcing a hoster to police their content? Do you think child porn will suddenly not exist anymore? Do you think child porn producer think "oh no, my website was taken down. Oh well I better stop doing this and get a stand up job."
- tgv 6y agoThe good it does is spreading it less. Demanding that a measure has to eradicate child pornography in order for it to be acceptable is ridiculous. Hosting companies take responsibility, because they knowingly and willingly host content that's beyond the jurisdiction of the company's country's legislature. It can't be that a string of copper wire across a border is enough to remove liability.
- vultour 6y ago> Tim Kuik, director of copyright organisation BREIN, says he was told by the men that he had to stop sending legally formulated letters of complaint. „They wanted a meeting where I would tell them what was wrong in a jovial tone, and then they might look at it.” This is hilarious, I wish less sketchy companies would do this to DMCA requests.
- alejandrojaez 6y agowhat about the isp companies they use for connect the datacenter?
- irq 6y agoRead the article. > If the companies that give IP Volume access to the rest of the internet were all to decide to stop doing so, the company could no longer operate on the internet. This is called de-peering, and it does occur very sporadically. > But it is highly controversial, says Guilmette. It flies in the face of the voluntary, decentralised structure of the internet. That is why the largest hub, the Amsterdam Internet Exchange, say they won’t do it. A spokesman for the exchange: „We are only a highway, we have nothing to do with the content. You surely can’t expect us to paternalistically review what such a party is hosting?”
- InCoffeeWeTrust 6y agoLike someone else said, it seems that AIE is trying to avoid higher charges in regard to implementing oversight measures. The oversight measures should have been there a long time ago. It's like youtube saying that they're simply "a highway" for video hosting. If it's moving through your platform, you have to be aware of what it is. There are police monitoring highways, there is extensive monitoring on youtube, so why is AIM pretending that the same rules don't apply?
- athrowaway3z 6y agoDo you have a stake in this article? Because from my point of view an account created 10 hours ago is rambling off technically incoherent straw-man on a tech focused forum. Its like saying the postman most open, read and understand every piece of mail before delivering it, and the police must search inside every car before it may drive on the road.
- zbentley 6y agoJust because you don't agree with them (I don't happen to, either) doesn't mean they're being incoherent, rambling, or using a straw man. They are clearly responding topically and reasonably. Be polite.
- nightwing 6y agoI would agree if the questions was about helping to catch someone who had made these videos. But hosting isn't a morality question, they are just storing a number, and hosting company should not have to care what interpretations of a number can exist.
- smhost 6y ago> they are just storing a number they are just storing atoms. the storage company should not have to care about what configurations the atoms can exist in.
- liamwire 6y agoThose ‘interpretations’ are tangible, meaningful products of harm inflicted on children. Let’s not pretend there’s an alternative – that anyone is using those bits in a different way.
- yabadubakta 6y agoSounds like you’d be a terrible citizen, turning a blind eye to exploitation and corruption to make a buck...
- kernoble 6y agoSo a bookstore is just selling colored pieces of paper, even if those pieces of paper are images of child abuse? Seriously what is wrong with you? I get that cryto-anarchist are hip and think they're so cool, but there is a real human cost here. Are you OK with that?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- nightwing 6y agoImages of child abuse are not child abuse. Instead of wasting energy on fighting with windmills and numbers, it would be better to concentrate efforts on catching child abusers, and keeping an eye on people who buy such books, to prevent crimes. The argument is exactly the same as the argument for not banning alcohol, decriminalizing drugs etc. Fight against actual crime instead of wasting resources on ineffective measures that look "morally right".
- jtvjan 6y agoWould „confidental computing”[1] be able to provide a solution in this situation? If it is encrypted using a TEE, they would have no way of knowing what kind of data they are hosting. [1]: https://confidentialcomputing.io/ https://confidentialcomputing.io/
- kernoble 6y agoAre you suggesting that something is a "solution" by shielding people who perpetuate the distribution of child abuse media and profit off it? If you are, then there is something seriously wrong with you.
- SV_BubbleTime 6y agoYes, you can use one of the four horsemen of internet crime to strip rights from everyone who isn’t doing anything wrong, or, you can realize the good will always outweigh the bad.
- pindab0ter 6y agoI think this is a case of a HN user seeing the abstraction of a problem rather than the actual subject matter.
- sofixa 6y agoThey don't need to know, if an IP hosted there responds with illegal data, you can know which customer it is and ban them.
- oneplane 6y agoOdd to see so many people come up with ways to defend this unethical business. It's hard to pin it on them legally but they are still dicks doing dicky things, they know it and they do it on purpose, and there is no clear way to fight it.
- robgibbons 6y agoI am not advocating for vigilantism, but it seems to me that these kinds of people who are career criminals can only be meaningfully stopped by other criminals. Police and lawyers are powerless, due to red tape and limitations in the system. So it would seemingly follow that only those who don't rely on legal means of recourse can put a stop to them. In other words: Batman. This is how you get Batman.
- RandomWorker 6y agoSo true, the horrors of the stuff they are hosting is profound. If they where even slightly on the up and up then it might destroy their business. While reading this article there needs to be better legislative powers, but I guess big tech has its own power. The governments hands are tied because so much of the Dutch economy is becoming hosting of data probably driven by the lacks laws. Some changes to this system and it comes down all pretty quickly. We need some intelligence people that need to go on to inside of this place and make sure when things come up to intervene. Maybe have the capabilities to trace where it’s originating from. NRC did a great job republishing this story in English maybe there will be European pressure now.
- AndrewUnmuted 6y agoMost data centers with the reviews these guys have would not last. This one is able to find a market because despite everything bad they do, there's a strong market demand to overcome ridiculous DMCA, GDPR, and other internet regulations. They can be a shitty service provider in every conceivable way, but because they are able to exist in a void instigated upon us by bad legislation, they can continue on in a way others cannot. I doubt many here would defend the way the business is being run. But misguided attempts at regulating the internet at the legislative level gives rise to these kinds of problems in the market. I am sure many here are simply sick of seeing this play out again and again. Just like how drug prohibition gave rise to international drug cartels, internet content regulation gives rise to data centers that flaunt those rules.
- breakingcups 6y agoSomehow, when the following two sentences are put together I lose all hope in the world's incentive structure: "Grapperhaus instituted a number of measures. [...] Companies would have to respond to a notification from the child pornography hotline without discussion within 24 hours" "In 2015, Ecatel became embroiled in a lengthy conflict with the Premier League in the UK over claims of illegal streaming of football matches over Ecatel’s network. Streams must be removed by court order within 20 minutes of a notification."
- sennight 6y agoHow fast does the ban hammer need to be to restore your hope? You know that "porn filtration", regularly used to justify state censorship, always ends up filtering speech that the state just doesn't want heard? I forget from where the latest porn blacklist leaked, either NZ or AU, but it was full of sites the likes of WikiLeaks.
- 0cVlTeIATBs 6y agoI believe GP's criticism is the imbalance in priority which hints at how money has leverage in the courts.
- sennight 6y agoWhich means very little in light of my criticism: "think of the children" is a pretense and there is no shortage of people who still fall for it. Complaining about the subterfuge not aligning with your ideals is just goofy.
- alisonkisk 6y agoFootball streams are live events. Pornography files generally aren't. The harm from pornography isn't in the viewing (except in a very diffuse sense, not per marginal view); it's in the creation which already happened. Keeping a pornography video up a bit longer is actually positive for law enforcement, since that provides viewer logs that law enforcement can investigate and likely make more arrests.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- iudqnolq 6y agoI enjoy the idea that a translater decided to include the dutch word hashcheckserver instead of looking for a similar english word. > Grapperhaus instituted a number of measures. A technical system for detecting child pornography – a hashcheckserver – would be set up that hosting companies could join.
- InCoffeeWeTrust 6y agoAlmost every entity has oversight measures implemented to safeguard it from criminal negligence. The laws in the Netherlands need to be updated to ensure that data hosting centres and their owners can't get away with criminal negligence. And to everyone complaining about this with a "but my free speech" excuse - there are extensive legal procedures which ensure that allegations of criminal negligence are conducted openly and fairly. How the Netherlands managed to avoid creating criminal negligence laws for these scenarios is beyond me. If the laws did exist, they would require data centres to be aware of the content which is hosted and promptly remove clients if the law is violated. No, this isn't "snooping" or an infringement on your "free speech" - in fact, these measures ensure that free speech flourishes while removing the illegal garbage. Now, once again, is the rebuttal of "but the government uses laws to unfairly censor people" - so then are you all for not having any laws? We have laws, they work - even though governments have abused them. But the answer is not to stop having laws.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- onetimeusename 6y agoThere's a pretty enormous incentive to censor the internet. As an example, Russia is threatening to ban Twitter completely citing child pornography laws[1]. It's pretty straightforward how a law like this gets abused. I think the question is, do you trust governments enough to give them the power to censor the internet? [1]: https://apnews.com/article/russia-threaten-block-twitter-726fc480f89a499605623e9a08c19017 https://apnews.com/article/russia-threaten-block-twitter-726...
- skinkestek 6y agoWe need laws. And we need police and courts to apply those laws, not power hungry politicians and media giants. There certainly exist content so bad that I want it off the Internet, but I do not want that to be used as an excuse to let those who are already powerful act as judge, jury and executioner.
- FDSGSG 6y agoThis is a strange hit piece. Ecatel does not seek to serve CP distributors, too much trouble for very little money. The issue is that CP distributors are attracted to Ecatel because they're friendly to other controversial content. Really law enforcement is to blame for not arresting these CP distributors causing trouble for Ecatel. Ecatel doesn't protect criminals, I've been the subject of an investigation which involved servers there and they did everything the police asked of them.