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I'm creating a throwaway that I hope won't irk dang. If this breaks the rules, I'm sorry and I'll stop. Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free softw

I'm creating a throwaway that I hope won't irk dang. If this breaks the rules, I'm sorry and I'll stop. Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. Google and Facebook might not have been possible in a world where you couldn't spin up a server for free and compile code without paying a license. Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. He also has Asperger's, which poses challenges many of us do not face. He hasn't, as far as I know, committed any crimes. Do we destroy the pillar we've built our entire livelihoods upon to satisfy a mob? Have all of us been truly without blame? Who hasn't said something they shouldn't have? Or done something that marginalized someone at some point in time (even if it wasn't on the basis of sex, gender, race, etc.)? I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. I don't want to live in a world where we can't be forgiven. I was reading comments in another HN thread, and one poster suggested that this might arise from raising kids without bullying. Like the immune system, if we don't develop a central tolerance, perhaps we start attacking everything we find unpleasant? No basis in behavioral science, of course. And then there's the engagement-driven social media monster. Twitter, in particular. It's destroying careers. We're badgering the members of the FSF. We're denying Richard Stallman any chances. This isn't good. It's horrific. What do we do about this?

enriquto 6y ago
> What do we do about this? There's not much we can do about that; the world is a horrible, unfair place. If Socrates was born again, we would kill him again.
- QuesnayJr 6y ago
  Your last sentence perfectly captures something I think all the time, but could never articulate pithily.
  - QuesnayJr 6y ago
    I know that you're not "supposed" to comment on voting here, but I feel the need to call out the fundamentally broken culture here around voting. I said something mildly nice about some else's writing, and I've gotten 3 downvotes? Really? I think the people running the site really needs to consider consequences for excessive downvoting. Having a discussion here is really unpleasant, because of the random drive-by voting. It's easier to have a discussion on Reddit, and Reddit is terrible.
    - enriquto 6y ago
      Don't worry too much about the upvotes and downvotes, it's not a big deal :) Some of the best comments on this site are completely greyed out!
- js8 6y ago
  I disagree. People can do things about cancel culture, in particular, give a thought about whether something that people are saying about somebody is really true and whether to participate in an online boycott (of an individual) based on a 2nd hand experience. Especially if you're in a position of power, consider if you should give in to the mob, which might not even relate to you.
  - marcus_holmes 6y ago
    Or just delete your Twitter account. Then it all magically goes away.
    - ben_w 6y ago
      I know someone who deleted their Twitter account and still gets harassed by people that want to get him fired over a year later. Not going to give details for hopefully obvious reasons.
- Synaesthesia 6y ago
  Of course there's something we can do. We get to make choices.
  - enriquto 6y ago
    > We get to make choices. I'm quite disillusioned at that point, I'm not sure that our choices can be good after all... There's lots of well-intentioned people doing horrible things, and at the same time I find myself systematically in the losing team when I try to take what it seems to be the correct stance.
    - pitay 6y ago
      Chin up. The world may be a far more horrible place than is commonly known but you can help your friends and loved ones. You can support the people you like and you can do nice things for yourself; such as a nice walk, have some great food, get a very decent sleep. Yeah, seeing what is happening can be very very depressing, dealing with people who don't care about their own hypocrisy and double standards, who have no problem in damning a person for very minor things. But there are other things in life and more people support your stance than you think, they're just unwilling to say it with how things are. Hope things go well for you.
tester34 6y ago
>I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. reading weekly cancel of somebody because they said something in the past doesn't convince me about this "freedom of speech" stuff
Jonnax 6y ago
Stallman has stated that he does not have Aspergers or Autism. But for some reason people online can't stop themselves from diagnosing him with it.
- user-the-name 6y ago
  Also, even if he did, implying that it is ok to be abusive or a sexual harasser because of it is not just absolutely wrong, but a massive, massive insult to all people with autism.
  - orra 6y ago
    This is spot on, even though predictably and depressingly you've been downvoted to hell. Autism does not excuse sexual harassment. Pretending it does is a complete ableist trope. As you say, it's a disservice to everybody with disabilities who have learnt, as necessary, to not sexually harass others.
    - incrudible 6y ago
      If I crack a bad joke due to my social ineptness, you may call that sexual harassment. However, due to my social ineptness, I will simply reject your definition of sexual harassment and insist that I was just making a harmless joke. Perhaps some people with different expressions of that "disability" have the capacity to "learn" that they're "wrong". I don't. To suggest that I should have that capacity because others do is... ableist, I guess?
      - user-the-name 6y ago
        That is not a thing.
        incrudible 6y ago
        It is a thing. QED
  - 6y ago
clappski 6y ago
> I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. Freedom of speech isn't the freedom to not be publicly judged about what you say.
- lifeisstillgood 6y ago
  >>> Freedom of speech isn't the freedom to not be publicly judged about what you say. Thank you for putting it so clearly.
  - Guthur 6y ago
    The problem is who's deciding what is and isn't acceptable, RMS has been saying clearly derogatory statements about religion, the basis of most of our shared morality, for decades without a single peep from the virtue crowd. He says a few edgy this about something else and then the pitch forks are out. The problem is that I'm not sure we have much of a shared morality any more.
    - pjc50 6y ago
      I'm not sure we ever did - or, to the extent that "we" did, it came down very hard on queer people and others.
      - Guthur 6y ago
        And now it's unfortunately nearly impossible for us to have a discussion about what various religions did or did not say about topics like homosexuality.
    - lifeisstillgood 6y ago
      Perhaps we should see it a different way. Software development forces us to be more precise about what our process is. Sales wants to automate their pipeline - oh but what do you mean I have to tell you who to call next? Just call the important ones. We can no longer 'fudge' things. Agile methodology is causing this problem in many companies. Asking senior management to stack rank their projects is an intensly political issue. Saying the project timelines will vary based on team velocity takes away simplicity of project management. As software eats the world then more of the world must be upfront and precise about what it means. This is going to lead to a lot of soul searching. The most obvious example is the Trolley problem in autonomous cars - do you program a car to swerve to avoid the child, killing the driver, or save the driver, kill the kid. This sort of devils own choice will become more rampant as more of the world becomes automatable. Online speech is just one of these. Now that every pub conversation can be spread to millions of listeners, we need to find ways to agree on what is and is not acceptable. The problem people are finding is that what was tolerated by people in the 19th hole in Alabama is not acceptable by people listening in Delhi. The human species is going to have to find ways to get along together. I think that will (eventually) be a good thing.
kosinus 6y ago
> American freedom of speech This specifically is such a weird expression. Other than that, just because Stallman did a good thing once, doesn’t excuse him from other mistakes. And making mistakes is not itself a problem, you can always own up to them and learn. But what I gather from the discussion is that there is a _pattern_ of bad behaviour.
- zecg 6y ago
  > what I gather from the discussion is that there is a _pattern_ of bad behaviour. I disagree, it's all very much overblown.
  - 2pEXgD0fZ5cF 6y ago
    I can't comment on most of the accusations, I have never met rms in person. But what really shocked me was that the authors of the anti rms letter label him as "transphobe", as a source for that claim they link to his GNU Kind Communications Guidelines [1], which to me spell the exact opposite. Why put such a claim in there? I find it really disturbing that so many people willingly accept that it's ok to mix legitimate criticism (assuming it is) with what is basically lies. "Might as well call him a few other bad names while we're at it for maximum impact"?. Why? [1]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html
    - bitwize 6y ago
      It's the bit about singular "they". RMS for some reason doesn't like singular "they", despite the fact that it predates singular "you" in common English usage. Singular "they" also happens to be, by far, the preferred pronoun of nonbinary people. By telling people not to use singular "they", RMS is harming, offending, and driving away nonbinary people from participation in GNU projects.
      - orra 6y ago
        That policy has since been updated to allow singular they, despite Stallman's objection to singular they. But now the footnote of the policy would allow you to call a trans woman "they" and never "her". That's not something transphobes (or anybody else) would ever do to a cis woman.
arpinum 6y ago
RMS does not have the skillset needed for a leadership position today. If you care about the movement, it needs a leader people want to follow. Just because RMS is not at the top doesn't mean he is being denied chances and isn't forgiven. I'm sure he can continue writing code. He just isn't good enough as a leader of a broad movement. That isn't a slight, most of us couldn't do it.
- liaukovv 6y ago
  Being a pleasant inoffensive(to corporate sponsors) mommy is just one of many possible ways to lead people. Another way is to lead by example with unrelenting commitment and drive.
- lifthrasiir 6y ago
  I think many people, especially those in this and related threads, don't really understand a difference between a visionary and a decision maker. RMS is indeed a great visionary: his vision of software freedom was basically correct and even more so today. That doesn't automatically make him a great decision maker. There might even possibly be a weak negative correlation. By all accounts, especially for recent decades, RMS had been a not-so-much-great decision maker and his resignation from FSF should have marked the end of the era no matter how you feel about that. Instead FSF chose to bring him back. Seriously, if out of the free software movement there were no decision maker better than RMS, then it is basically doomed by now. I don't feel so.
- tjpnz 6y ago
  >RMS does not have the skillset needed for a leadership position today. Care to define what that skillset is? Leadership requires all sorts of skills and some of the most effective leaders I've seen share very little in common.
  - arpinum 6y ago
    #1 - People want to follow you.
    - 6y ago
Scuds 6y ago
So what? Though he's an philosophical founder, the FSF has stagnated under his leadership over the decades. It's like you're more in love with the Idea of the FSF than the FSF as it stands today, reflexively self-protecting its old guard and completely inhibited by the my-way-or-the-high-way attitude of RMS.
- incrudible 6y ago
  That's a fair point, but a smear campaign is not the right tool to achieve change to that end. If we accept this process as valid just because we agree with the outcome, it is going to blow up right in our face.
- prepend 6y ago
  > stagnated under his leadership over the decades. I disagree. I think FSF is/was until recently the strongest ever. Free Software has advanced greatly in the past 20 years, that’s not entirely due to FSF, but in part. I don’t think RMS is the singular force behind FSF but I don’t think it’s correct to say that FSF sucks or that it’s sucked because of RMS.
  - p_l 6y ago
    The big advances in last decade all seemed to me to be in spite of RMS, not because. But then I look from pretty afar.
user-the-name 6y ago
He has not just "said some sexist and edgy thing". He is abusive against everyone around him. He has sexually harassed numerous women near him, to the point that people lock themselves in their offices when he visits. He is incredibly, incredibly toxic. He has had a huge crowd of people trying, again and again, to tell him to stop acting like this, and to be a decent human being. He refuses. He is a massive burden on any institution he is part of. Kicking him out is the correct decision in every case, no matter what he has achieved in the past.
- mustafa_pasi 6y ago
  > He is abusive against everyone around him. He has sexually harassed numerous women near him, to the point that people lock themselves in their offices when he visits. Then why didn't these women report him to the whoever competent authorities at MIT? Or to the police if the crime is serious enough? Why are they signing an open letter on the internet instead? Please don't parrot unfounded heresy.
  - user-the-name 6y ago
    Are you saying all the people, from many different backgrounds, organisations, and genders, are all lying when they talk about RMS's abusive and harassing behaviour?
    - mustafa_pasi 6y ago
      Most of those people have never been in the same room with RMS.
      - user-the-name 6y ago
        I am talking specifically, and only, about the people who have been in the same room with RMS.
  - Taniwha 6y ago
    heresy?
aboringusername 6y ago
> I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. I take issue with this. I'm not hugely adept at history but from my understanding there has never been a time where you can just blurt out a communication and have it be "accepted" by society - this seems to me very American and appears very detached from reality and real world experience. Yes, you are accountable for the communications you make, whether via keybord, orally, or any other way. Yes, you can be killed for the communications you make - this is not new, neither shocking and has been a staple of humanity from the beginning. Yes, you will be cancelled if your joke is taken out of context, or if some journalist finds a tweet and somebody is on an airplane and at the center of a multi-national storm [0]. Textareas like the one you typed in to make your comment give you a lot of freedom, but also a lot of power, and humans are learning with great power wields responsibility. People will take offense at your crass jokes and delete you for it, perhaps it's best to step away and not click "reply" afterall. Your conversation with a friend may be recorded or overheard, perhaps somebody is stalking you and waiting for a golden opportunity to "get" you, perhaps it's possible to form a narrative the media can use that's pieced together just to convince a group then let it spread like wildfire. None of these things are new to humanity, and sometimes there's just nothing within your power you can do to stop it if somebody is motivated enough to want to inflict harm upon you. That's what the world has taught us lately, more people would be wise to learn and take notes. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI
- risky_opinions 6y ago
  > perhaps it's best to step away and not click "reply" afterall. This is censorship. It's why I'm posting anonymously for the first time in a long time. > there has never been a time where you can just blurt out a communication and have it be "accepted" by society We're in a new era where algorithms amplify rage and "mobs" are a composite of real people, anonymous users, and bots. You can't fight against it, and there's no due process or forgiveness.
  - aboringusername 6y ago
    If you think there's been a period of history where you can say what you want, when you want, how you want and not end up dead in a ditch then I'd kindly ask you to reconsider that belief. There are many examples of people who have said things only to end up in a bad way as a result. People have always been targeted for their words, or their beliefs, and sure, we have new ways of amplifying the narrative these days via social media and algorithms/AI, but I wanted to stress this is not new to humanity. All it takes is one motivated human and they can wreck havoc on your life - it may be because you said something they took offense to or simply because they decided they no longer like you. There's a lesson in all of this, think before you speak, and before you tweet. As many examples have taught us it will come back to haunt you. If you want to be a public figure that comes with the job I'm afraid.
thefz 6y ago
> I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. While I agree with most of your points on RMS: Freedom of speech exists and is enforced in other countries. Its dawn can be traced back to ancient Greece passing through renaissance and the French revolution. And ironically, the SJW cancel-culture is a US phenomenon only, it's nonexistent in the EU at least. Don't want to rub anyone the wrong way, but from an external standpoint, I would not want American freedom of speech right now, if this is what gets you.
- oytis 6y ago
  Still freedom of speech is understood much more literally and with fewer exceptions in U.S. than elsewhere. In Germany for one, there is no such thing as freedom of speech, but rather "freedom of opinion". Practically that means that if you want to say something that someone else is not going to like, you have to a) take care not to bring up any facts (e.g. say that someone touched you inappropriately), because as soon as you do that you have to either provide a proof or face slander suit b) still not to cross the line when your opinion can be considered offensive. This doesn't leave a lot of space for free speech. This is not to mention a list of forbidden opinions and symbols for which you will face repercussions from the state itself. Don't want to argue which is the right way, I just mean that "American freedom of speech" is a real thing.
  - quonn 6y ago
    > a) take care not to bring up any facts (e.g. say that someone touched you inappropriately), because as soon as you do that you have to either provide a proof or face slander suit Surely you would face slander suits in the US as well if you lie about being touched?
    - oytis 6y ago
      There is a huge difference in who takes the burden of proof. In the U.S. if you accuse someone of slander, you have to prove that what they say is false and malicious. In Germany it's the other way round: the one who is accused is also the one who should prove that what they say is true. Which leaves e.g. little space for #metoo in Germany - either you have proofs and then you go to police/court - or you don't, and then you have to stay silent.
KlinkEastwood 6y ago
HN has got to be one of the few places where the censorship is so strong users feel the need to preemptively apologize and grovel to a single user when they say something that might be against his arbitrary and selectively enforced rules, something that might irk a single user in a site used by 1000s. Naturally this pre apology is followed by a statement about how people cant be blunt or speak their minds freely. How censorship is horrific. And no one sees the irony.
psychiatrist24 6y ago
I would like to know what John Sullivan is thinking, if his resignation is even related to the RSM issue. Does he want to appease the mob? Is he personally disgusted by RSM? Or does he want to be on the right side, and the disgust stems from that (I mean he is disgusted that the "right" people don't get what they want)? I tried to google a bit and since no immediately damning statements by RSM came up, he doesn't bother me with regard to that. Yes, he wrote about paedophilia, but afaik he didn't demand it should be legaized, he just pointed out that it has created some absurd issues, like teens sexting each other being criminalized (afaik - I only googled a bit, and couldn't find damning quotes, so I assume they don't exist). I am more concerned about the anecdotes of his icky behavior (read someone claiming he licked a womans arm, another that he picked flakes from his feet during a lecture). But I have no way to verify if they are true, so I am also holding back judgement.
gimboland 6y ago
> I don't want to live in a world where we can't be forgiven. Forgiveness requires accountability and commitment to change, neither of which have been forthcoming.
- CodeGlitch 6y ago
  Have you seen his blog? He's admitted failings and mistakes in the past.
  - gimboland 6y ago
    I have not, and would be interested to see a link to that (the posting(s) in question, not the whole blog), particularly if it addresses the many accusations of sexual harassment, as my understanding was that this had not happened. Prompted by your comment, I had a look on his site, but nothing seemed to be fit the bill, either in the "Political Articles" section or the "Non-political Articles" section — but maybe I'm looking in the wrong places? Please, enlighten me.
    - CodeGlitch 6y ago
      Sorry I don't have time to dig through his blog right now, but on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Resignation_from_MIT_and_FSF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Resignation_f...
- orasis 6y ago
  Forgiveness technically does NOT require those things. That’s the point. It’s fore-give-ness.
  - GTP 6y ago
    But if you forget for a moment your semantic argument, you find that is actually very hard to forgive somebody that doesn't admit to have done something wrong.
minitech 6y ago
> I was reading comments in another HN thread, and one poster suggested that this might arise from raising kids without bullying. Like the immune system, if we don't develop a central tolerance, perhaps we start attacking everything we find unpleasant? No basis in behavioral science, of course. Forget basis in behavioral science, this has no basis in anything, and you’re deluded if you think kids aren’t still bullied today. What a trash take.
- the-dude 6y ago
  The environment is profoundly different today than say, 40 years ago. Being different is much easier today. I was seduced by my parents to join a Judo club so I could stand up to myself ( this works wonders ). Last year, I confronted a new millenial neighbour of mine repeatedly on her behaviour of biking on the sidewalk. The biggest problem was she was doing blind corners as well. There are small children here playing, we have elderly with walking aids. It was dangerous. She called the police on me.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    So with your martial arts training you confronted your neighbour - and she called the police? Well, maybe you should try talking calmly next time, then maybe others feel not threatened enough to call the police. Otherwise you have the right to call the police if she insists on being a threat to the children around.
    - Daho0n 6y ago
      A confrontation with "martial arts training" is being mindful and resting in yourself. You try to make it sound like it is behaving aggressively and ready for violence. That's the opposite of what you learn and the risk of someone behaving like this is way higher in those without martial arts training. Besides, I bet you are fully aware that the point GP was making was that his training made him dare say something where he before wouldn't.
      - 6y ago
smt88 6y ago
"Tolerance" doesn't mean someone can have any prominent position they want. I completely support Stallman's right to say that he believes children can consent to sex. It's not sexist or edgy -- it's repulsive and sounds like the stuff Epstein used to say. But he still deserves to have friends and rights. What he doesn't deserve is coworkers or teammates who are forced to pretend he didn't say that stuff. He said it and there are consequences. Could any of the rest of us tweet about our theoretical support for statutory rape and still have jobs? And the things he said that denigrated parents who raise children with Down's syndrome is arguably worse. Twitter is not destroying careers. People are destroying their own careers.
- Daho0n 6y ago
  The consequence was that he talked to people about it, changed his mind and apologized. That this gets brought up after the fact is not a consequence of his current opinion and everyone knows this. This is a consequence of a mistake he were big enough to public apologize for (unlike most people online) and then later used against him. Besides much of what RMS is saying and doing that makes him stick out and he gets harassed over is because of him being neuroatypical.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    He didn't apologize for his comments about sex between adults and children.[1] And he didn't say he changed his mind until after he came under pressure to resign. It was his current opinion as far as anyone knew. And that's just 1 of the examples they gave. Neuroatypical people I know are pretty angry about mostly neurotypical people using their condition to rationalize Stallman's bad behavior. [1] https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September...
- buisi 6y ago
  I think some people have a very naive view of consenting to sex. The idea is they ask someone whether they want to do it, they say yes, and they do it. And they don't really see the harm there. Everyone's happy, right? But, children lack the knowledge to understand what it is they are asking. Children might also agree to things they shouldn't because they want attention, even if it is bad for them, and hurts them. Teenagers might be better off but they're hormone propelled and may make mistakes they really shouldn't. There are power imbalances too where someone feels they should do something they really don't want to do. To be clear, I'm not for criminalizing sex where a small age gap is involved. Throwing teenagers in prison for having sex with each other is counter-productive and harmful. There are better ways to tackle that. The same applies to sexting. But, the burden which would have to be met for an adult to be involved is so high, so risky, and so convoluted that it isn't worth it in practice. Can a judge really make the right call all the time there? Is it worth it? By the way, he has never tweeted his theoretical support for statutory rape. I don't think he even has a twitter account. He made some comments on an obscure personal blog over a couple of decades. Someone went out of their way to dig it out after he appeared in the news.
raverbashing 6y ago
> Do we destroy the pillar we've built our entire livelihoods upon to satisfy a mob? Who says we are? Is Free Software being thrown out of the bus with this? No The question here is RMS re-joining the FSF board. That's it. People are questioning him rejoining a privileged position. It's not a prison sentence. He's not being prevented to earn a living. Yes, nobody is free of blame, everybody has controversial opinions. But at the same time, it's not the right job for him.
bryanrasmussen 6y ago
>one poster suggested that this might arise from raising kids without bullying. bullying is being exposed to the mob, not exposing kids to mobs creates mobs seems somehow counterintuitive.
kitsune_ 6y ago
I think that we do not know whether he is on the autism spectrum. There are articles where RMS states a suspicion but he never underwent an evaluation afaik.
mhh__ 6y ago
> Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. done some sexist and edgy things. On stage, spoken directly at women. Also, Stallman is a totally incompetent leader - the project is sufficiently niche that I won't name it, but the maintainer mentioned to me that he entered rms's bad book merely by virtue of having children.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  It is nice how you prove your point about Stallman being totally incompetent leader by providing a very specific and verifiable allegation. Also, now we know that rms has 'bad book' where he puts people with children.
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    I would give more detail but the exact project is a reasonably major but narrow piece of GNU with not many maintainers, which I should also add they nearly missed out on for other rms related reasons.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  C+P of a compelling list from the gcc mailing list I read: 1. 'skeptical that voluntarily pedophilia harms children.’ stallman's own archives 2006-mar-jun I note that children are incapable of consenting. That’s what the age of consent means. 2. 'end censorship of “child pornography”’. Stallman's archives 2012-jul-oct.html Notice use of “quotes” to down play what is actually being requested. 3. 'gentle expressions of attraction’ Stallman's archives 2012-jul-oct.html Condoning a variant of the wolf-whistle. Unless one’s talking to one’s lover, ‘gentle invitations for sex’ by a stranger is grooming (be it child or of-age). 4. Defends someone charged with ‘"sexual assault" on a "child" after a session with a sex worker of age 16.’ stallman's archives 2018-jul-oct Notice the quoting here, implying the child is not a child. ‘The article refers to the sex worker as a "child", but that is not so. Elsewhere it has been published that she is 16 years old. That is late adolescence, not childhood.’ No, they are a child, that’s what the ages of majority and consent mean. 5. The ‘St Ignatius’ ‘EMACS virgins’ non-joke. ‘The commenter writes about seeing the routine when she was only 15, and how RMS singled her out several times during that performance: He actually pointed to me in the back and proclaimed, into the mic, "A GIRL!" causing the audience to turn and look. Mortifying. Then he proceeded to gesture toward me every time he referred to "EMACS Virgins." (I cannot believe that he is still doing the same talk 10+ years later.)’ No wonder women want nothing to do with him. 6. A business card that is completely repelling image on oreilly 7. He knows those cards are inappropriate. He broke the code of conduct he helped author. wiredferret's twitter feed. 8. I understand he’s tried to circumvent such codes of conduct by asking women to meet him outside of the conference venue. _sagesharp_'s twitter feed. 9. He doesn’t acknowledge the few women he has worked with ‘I don’t have any experience working with women in programming projects; I don’t think that any volunteered to work on Emacs or GCC.’ Completely ignoring Sandra Loosemore, who is a coauthor, with him, of the Glibc manual. Sandra was involved with LISP standardization, so I would be surprised if he was unaware of her involvement there. As you well know, she has worked significantly on GCC, GCC has several other women contributors, but too few for complacency. 10. ‘My first interaction with RMS was at a hacker con at 19. He asked my name, I gave it, whether I went to MIT (I had an MIT shirt on), and after confirmation I did, asked me on a date. I said no. That was our entire conversation.’ corbett's twitter feed. This is but one of many reports of utterly inappropriate social interactions.
danpalmer 6y ago
We can't weigh the positive impact a person has had against the unrealised potential for positive impact from all those they forced out of the community. We just don't know if Stallman is a net-positive because we'll never get to see the alternative case. Given this, we can't use an "end justify the means" argument, which means we have to hold people accountable in isolation from any positive impact they may have had.
vmception 6y ago
> I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. You've always lived in this world and this is the America you grew up in. You were lied to. The government has stayed very professional in this, and by that I mean complete absence, which is American freedom of speech.
matthewmacleod 6y ago
I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. But this is a fantasy you made up. We've never lived in a society where you are free to say whatever you want and are isolated from all consequences of that. In fact, you will almost certainly have some lines yourself. There are things that Stallman could have said, or actions that he could have taken, that you personally would agree made it untenable for him to keep his position. I'm unsure why you feel that your position is the only reasonable one to hold, and that anybody who has a different level of tolerance constitutes a "mob". It feels like we're in the midst of a moral panic, but I don't think it's coming from who you seem to think it is.
- iagovar 6y ago
  > In fact, you will almost certainly have some lines yourself. There are things that Stallman could have said, or actions that he could have taken, that you personally would agree made it untenable for him to keep his position Why so much speculation? He's actually saying the opposite.
- prepend 6y ago
  > But this is a fantasy you made up This is an ideal held by many that we should strive toward. We may never achieve it in our lifetimes, but it’s still healthy to have a common goal we all work toward. It’s disheartening if I just say “fuck it, we’re hosed, so what’s the point.”
haskal 6y ago
> What do we do about this? Step 1 would be to groom people to leadership positions. How is it that an organization of 35+ years doesn't have a good rank next generation who will take the baton from the old guard? I bet you can't name another member of the FSF. For Linux kernel, I can think of GHK, for Ruby I know quite a few people, but for FSF, the bus factor seems to be 1. Even without all the accusations, FSF should have a leadership they can fallback to. I feared for FSF after Stallman (before the controversy), now I fear for FSF, full stop.
pjmlp 6y ago
Sorry, while I appreciate what he has done and this seems a bit like witch hunt to me, I was already working in IT before GNU happened and most of my work is unrelated to GNU/Linux. Without it, I would still be using Solaris, HP-UX, Tru64, Aix, BSD, ....
Ar-Curunir 6y ago
You’re deluded if you think RMS hasn’t had enough chances at this point.
jamienicol 6y ago
Stallman and the FSF are destroying what they built. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences. We forgive those who show remorse and make amends. Not those who continue their bad behaviour.
KoftaBob 6y ago
"I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds." American freedom of speech in the 1st Amendment states that the US Government can't restrict what you're able to say. It does not state that you're entitled to say what you want without real world consequences.
533474 6y ago
good article that deals quite well with the controversial topics [1] [1] https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  really good read. thanks
deleted 6y ago
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op03 6y ago
We dont do anything about it, in the same sense second graders dont have to do anything about tenth grade problems. Social Media, HN included, does a fine job of presenting tenth grade problems to second graders everyday. As if that isnt misguided enough (no org or edu system ever does that and produces good outcomes), it creates a rallying point for all the second graders in world to show up and discuss the tenth grade problem on the board. Its a waste of time. Thats all it is. There are second graders who understand that, and there are second graders who will get carried away by the numbers at the rallying point and go storm the capitol or whatever bullshit a second grade herd can come up with. Any time anyone starts getting anxious over problems the internet happily plants in their head, thats a clear signal they are dealing with problems above their paygrade. There is only one valid move to make, shrug it off and head back to the second grade classroom. There is no evidence social media or hn debates have ever contributed to solutions to anything extremely complex. And there is enough evidence they just increase the complexity of the problem.
hutzlibu 6y ago
"What do we do about this? " I would start with having debates based in reality and not ideology, like this: "Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. "
Doctor_Fegg 6y ago
> Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement The "Free Software" movement (cap F, cap S), yes. > and he's the reason we all have jobs No. There was a sizeable movement for public domain software before Stallman. Stallman brought along a particular ideology and one which resonated with a lot of people, as well as coding a bunch of software himself. But it is an incredible reach to say that, without Stallman, there wouldn't have been the option to "spin up a server for free and compile code without paying a license". How do you know that? I ran a "public domain library" back in the 8-bit days, as did many others. It was code you could distribute freely, and where you could play around and build upon the source. You could argue that Stallman's Free Software was another descendant of the early '80s public domain software culture, but you cannot presume that public domain software would have withered and died without Stallman. I think it's vanishingly unlikely, in fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_free_and_open-source_software#Free_software_before_the_1980s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_free_and_open-sourc... is worth reading.
- Taniwha 6y ago
  Yup, long before I ever heard of Stallman we were passing around mag tapes full of software to share - people brought stuff to conferences and conference tapes were a thing
  - sam_lowry_ 6y ago
    This is called pirating, now. I think Stallman contributed a lot to keep the sharing economy legal.
    - Taniwha 6y ago
      No it's not, sharing the source code of stuff you create yourself with others is not 'pirating', it basn't then and it isn't now (we're talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_track_tape https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_track_tape here)
      - 6y ago
Stratoscope 6y ago
> Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. WTF? I had a job long before RMS came on the scene, and I still have one. Whatever my feelings about Stallman, he doesn't get credit for that. And I was giving away source code way before FSF existed. We didn't have fancy names or licenses back in those days, we just called it "public domain".
detaro 6y ago
Stallman is not the pillar things are build on. Yes, he's had a monumental impact on the software world, but it's a mistake to bind the concept of Free Software to him and pretend it needs him personally to be involved. It doesn't, and hasn't for a long time. Today, it's likely better off without him involved at high level, if the past decade of the FSF is anything to go by. And it's not that we "live in a world where we can't be forgiven", but there is little to suggest that there is any meaningful commitment to change, instead RMS is just back somehow for some reason, without warning (i.e. nobody at LibrePlanet apparently knew that was coming, including the organizers and participants that had explicitly requested to not be involved with him). Not surprising that doesn't satisfy people.
- buisi 6y ago
  To be fair, he was only re-appointed for a short while before he was cancelled. We don't even know what his plans are.
andrewaylett 6y ago
Stallman has shown that he's a man of his principles, and willing to stick by them even at great personal cost. Obviously he's most famous for his dedication to Free Software. But in recent years, he's made it very clear that Free Software isn't actually the most important principle in his life: his freedom to act abusively is more important. When Stallman was asked to choose between Free Software and abusive behaviour, he chose abusive behaviour. And what we're seeing now is the fallout from the decision he made. It's cost him a lot, yes, but that's his choice. Would that it were less costly for those who have suffered at his hands.
GTP 6y ago
>I was reading comments in another HN thread, and one poster >suggested that this might arise from raising kids without >bullying. Like the immune system, if we don't develop a >central tolerance, perhaps we start attacking everything we >find unpleasant? No basis in behavioral science, of course. I'm not sure I understood what are you trying to say here, are you suggesting that a "small dose" of bullying is beneficial to a child's development?
deleted 6y ago
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bjourne 6y ago
I agree with you, but it would behoove you to note that most career destructions haven't been the work of mobs - they have been the work of white elites and old boys' networks. Dozens of academics have had their careers ruined because they espoused views the elites found uncomfortable. For each public career destruction, you have chilling effects that are orders of magnitudes larger; academics have to choose between saying what they think and having a job and many choose the latter. By all means, defend Stallman's right to say thoughtless and sexist things, but also spend some time defending those who have been fired for trying to unionize their workplace, those who can't get a job because they have publicly campaigned for a political party, and for victims of workplace sexual harassment who can't speak up about it because they would be effectively blacklisted.
deleted 6y ago
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AndrewDucker 6y ago
Has Richard apologied? Has he asked for forgiveness? Because if he keeps saying upsetting things and never apologises or tries to learn then he's driving people away. And that makes him a bad fit for a leadership position.
meribold 6y ago
The fact that parent created a "risky_opinions" throwaway for sharing their rather moderate take on this controversy should tell all of us that something is going wrong.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

enriquto 6y ago

> What do we do about this? There's not much we can do about that; the world is a horrible, unfair place. If Socrates was born again, we would kill him again.

QuesnayJr 6y ago
Your last sentence perfectly captures something I think all the time, but could never articulate pithily.
- QuesnayJr 6y ago
  I know that you're not "supposed" to comment on voting here, but I feel the need to call out the fundamentally broken culture here around voting. I said something mildly nice about some else's writing, and I've gotten 3 downvotes? Really? I think the people running the site really needs to consider consequences for excessive downvoting. Having a discussion here is really unpleasant, because of the random drive-by voting. It's easier to have a discussion on Reddit, and Reddit is terrible.
  - enriquto 6y ago
    Don't worry too much about the upvotes and downvotes, it's not a big deal :) Some of the best comments on this site are completely greyed out!
js8 6y ago
I disagree. People can do things about cancel culture, in particular, give a thought about whether something that people are saying about somebody is really true and whether to participate in an online boycott (of an individual) based on a 2nd hand experience. Especially if you're in a position of power, consider if you should give in to the mob, which might not even relate to you.
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  Or just delete your Twitter account. Then it all magically goes away.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    I know someone who deleted their Twitter account and still gets harassed by people that want to get him fired over a year later. Not going to give details for hopefully obvious reasons.
Synaesthesia 6y ago
Of course there's something we can do. We get to make choices.
- enriquto 6y ago
  > We get to make choices. I'm quite disillusioned at that point, I'm not sure that our choices can be good after all... There's lots of well-intentioned people doing horrible things, and at the same time I find myself systematically in the losing team when I try to take what it seems to be the correct stance.
  - pitay 6y ago
    Chin up. The world may be a far more horrible place than is commonly known but you can help your friends and loved ones. You can support the people you like and you can do nice things for yourself; such as a nice walk, have some great food, get a very decent sleep. Yeah, seeing what is happening can be very very depressing, dealing with people who don't care about their own hypocrisy and double standards, who have no problem in damning a person for very minor things. But there are other things in life and more people support your stance than you think, they're just unwilling to say it with how things are. Hope things go well for you.

tester34 6y ago

>I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. reading weekly cancel of somebody because they said something in the past doesn't convince me about this "freedom of speech" stuff

Jonnax 6y ago

Stallman has stated that he does not have Aspergers or Autism. But for some reason people online can't stop themselves from diagnosing him with it.

user-the-name 6y ago
Also, even if he did, implying that it is ok to be abusive or a sexual harasser because of it is not just absolutely wrong, but a massive, massive insult to all people with autism.
- orra 6y ago
  This is spot on, even though predictably and depressingly you've been downvoted to hell. Autism does not excuse sexual harassment. Pretending it does is a complete ableist trope. As you say, it's a disservice to everybody with disabilities who have learnt, as necessary, to not sexually harass others.
  - incrudible 6y ago
    If I crack a bad joke due to my social ineptness, you may call that sexual harassment. However, due to my social ineptness, I will simply reject your definition of sexual harassment and insist that I was just making a harmless joke. Perhaps some people with different expressions of that "disability" have the capacity to "learn" that they're "wrong". I don't. To suggest that I should have that capacity because others do is... ableist, I guess?
    - user-the-name 6y ago
      That is not a thing.
      - incrudible 6y ago
        It is a thing. QED
- 6y ago

clappski 6y ago

> I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. Freedom of speech isn't the freedom to not be publicly judged about what you say.

lifeisstillgood 6y ago
>>> Freedom of speech isn't the freedom to not be publicly judged about what you say. Thank you for putting it so clearly.
- Guthur 6y ago
  The problem is who's deciding what is and isn't acceptable, RMS has been saying clearly derogatory statements about religion, the basis of most of our shared morality, for decades without a single peep from the virtue crowd. He says a few edgy this about something else and then the pitch forks are out. The problem is that I'm not sure we have much of a shared morality any more.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    I'm not sure we ever did - or, to the extent that "we" did, it came down very hard on queer people and others.
    - Guthur 6y ago
      And now it's unfortunately nearly impossible for us to have a discussion about what various religions did or did not say about topics like homosexuality.
  - lifeisstillgood 6y ago
    Perhaps we should see it a different way. Software development forces us to be more precise about what our process is. Sales wants to automate their pipeline - oh but what do you mean I have to tell you who to call next? Just call the important ones. We can no longer 'fudge' things. Agile methodology is causing this problem in many companies. Asking senior management to stack rank their projects is an intensly political issue. Saying the project timelines will vary based on team velocity takes away simplicity of project management. As software eats the world then more of the world must be upfront and precise about what it means. This is going to lead to a lot of soul searching. The most obvious example is the Trolley problem in autonomous cars - do you program a car to swerve to avoid the child, killing the driver, or save the driver, kill the kid. This sort of devils own choice will become more rampant as more of the world becomes automatable. Online speech is just one of these. Now that every pub conversation can be spread to millions of listeners, we need to find ways to agree on what is and is not acceptable. The problem people are finding is that what was tolerated by people in the 19th hole in Alabama is not acceptable by people listening in Delhi. The human species is going to have to find ways to get along together. I think that will (eventually) be a good thing.

kosinus 6y ago

> American freedom of speech This specifically is such a weird expression. Other than that, just because Stallman did a good thing once, doesn’t excuse him from other mistakes. And making mistakes is not itself a problem, you can always own up to them and learn. But what I gather from the discussion is that there is a _pattern_ of bad behaviour.

zecg 6y ago
> what I gather from the discussion is that there is a _pattern_ of bad behaviour. I disagree, it's all very much overblown.
- 2pEXgD0fZ5cF 6y ago
  I can't comment on most of the accusations, I have never met rms in person. But what really shocked me was that the authors of the anti rms letter label him as "transphobe", as a source for that claim they link to his GNU Kind Communications Guidelines [1], which to me spell the exact opposite. Why put such a claim in there? I find it really disturbing that so many people willingly accept that it's ok to mix legitimate criticism (assuming it is) with what is basically lies. "Might as well call him a few other bad names while we're at it for maximum impact"?. Why? [1]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html
  - bitwize 6y ago
    It's the bit about singular "they". RMS for some reason doesn't like singular "they", despite the fact that it predates singular "you" in common English usage. Singular "they" also happens to be, by far, the preferred pronoun of nonbinary people. By telling people not to use singular "they", RMS is harming, offending, and driving away nonbinary people from participation in GNU projects.
    - orra 6y ago
      That policy has since been updated to allow singular they, despite Stallman's objection to singular they. But now the footnote of the policy would allow you to call a trans woman "they" and never "her". That's not something transphobes (or anybody else) would ever do to a cis woman.

arpinum 6y ago

RMS does not have the skillset needed for a leadership position today. If you care about the movement, it needs a leader people want to follow. Just because RMS is not at the top doesn't mean he is being denied chances and isn't forgiven. I'm sure he can continue writing code. He just isn't good enough as a leader of a broad movement. That isn't a slight, most of us couldn't do it.

liaukovv 6y ago
Being a pleasant inoffensive(to corporate sponsors) mommy is just one of many possible ways to lead people. Another way is to lead by example with unrelenting commitment and drive.
lifthrasiir 6y ago
I think many people, especially those in this and related threads, don't really understand a difference between a visionary and a decision maker. RMS is indeed a great visionary: his vision of software freedom was basically correct and even more so today. That doesn't automatically make him a great decision maker. There might even possibly be a weak negative correlation. By all accounts, especially for recent decades, RMS had been a not-so-much-great decision maker and his resignation from FSF should have marked the end of the era no matter how you feel about that. Instead FSF chose to bring him back. Seriously, if out of the free software movement there were no decision maker better than RMS, then it is basically doomed by now. I don't feel so.
tjpnz 6y ago
>RMS does not have the skillset needed for a leadership position today. Care to define what that skillset is? Leadership requires all sorts of skills and some of the most effective leaders I've seen share very little in common.
- arpinum 6y ago
  #1 - People want to follow you.
  - 6y ago

Scuds 6y ago

So what? Though he's an philosophical founder, the FSF has stagnated under his leadership over the decades. It's like you're more in love with the Idea of the FSF than the FSF as it stands today, reflexively self-protecting its old guard and completely inhibited by the my-way-or-the-high-way attitude of RMS.

incrudible 6y ago
That's a fair point, but a smear campaign is not the right tool to achieve change to that end. If we accept this process as valid just because we agree with the outcome, it is going to blow up right in our face.
prepend 6y ago
> stagnated under his leadership over the decades. I disagree. I think FSF is/was until recently the strongest ever. Free Software has advanced greatly in the past 20 years, that’s not entirely due to FSF, but in part. I don’t think RMS is the singular force behind FSF but I don’t think it’s correct to say that FSF sucks or that it’s sucked because of RMS.
- p_l 6y ago
  The big advances in last decade all seemed to me to be in spite of RMS, not because. But then I look from pretty afar.

user-the-name 6y ago

He has not just "said some sexist and edgy thing". He is abusive against everyone around him. He has sexually harassed numerous women near him, to the point that people lock themselves in their offices when he visits. He is incredibly, incredibly toxic. He has had a huge crowd of people trying, again and again, to tell him to stop acting like this, and to be a decent human being. He refuses. He is a massive burden on any institution he is part of. Kicking him out is the correct decision in every case, no matter what he has achieved in the past.

mustafa_pasi 6y ago
> He is abusive against everyone around him. He has sexually harassed numerous women near him, to the point that people lock themselves in their offices when he visits. Then why didn't these women report him to the whoever competent authorities at MIT? Or to the police if the crime is serious enough? Why are they signing an open letter on the internet instead? Please don't parrot unfounded heresy.
- user-the-name 6y ago
  Are you saying all the people, from many different backgrounds, organisations, and genders, are all lying when they talk about RMS's abusive and harassing behaviour?
  - mustafa_pasi 6y ago
    Most of those people have never been in the same room with RMS.
    - user-the-name 6y ago
      I am talking specifically, and only, about the people who have been in the same room with RMS.
- Taniwha 6y ago
  heresy?

aboringusername 6y ago

> I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. I take issue with this. I'm not hugely adept at history but from my understanding there has never been a time where you can just blurt out a communication and have it be "accepted" by society - this seems to me very American and appears very detached from reality and real world experience. Yes, you are accountable for the communications you make, whether via keybord, orally, or any other way. Yes, you can be killed for the communications you make - this is not new, neither shocking and has been a staple of humanity from the beginning. Yes, you will be cancelled if your joke is taken out of context, or if some journalist finds a tweet and somebody is on an airplane and at the center of a multi-national storm [0]. Textareas like the one you typed in to make your comment give you a lot of freedom, but also a lot of power, and humans are learning with great power wields responsibility. People will take offense at your crass jokes and delete you for it, perhaps it's best to step away and not click "reply" afterall. Your conversation with a friend may be recorded or overheard, perhaps somebody is stalking you and waiting for a golden opportunity to "get" you, perhaps it's possible to form a narrative the media can use that's pieced together just to convince a group then let it spread like wildfire. None of these things are new to humanity, and sometimes there's just nothing within your power you can do to stop it if somebody is motivated enough to want to inflict harm upon you. That's what the world has taught us lately, more people would be wise to learn and take notes. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI

risky_opinions 6y ago
> perhaps it's best to step away and not click "reply" afterall. This is censorship. It's why I'm posting anonymously for the first time in a long time. > there has never been a time where you can just blurt out a communication and have it be "accepted" by society We're in a new era where algorithms amplify rage and "mobs" are a composite of real people, anonymous users, and bots. You can't fight against it, and there's no due process or forgiveness.
- aboringusername 6y ago
  If you think there's been a period of history where you can say what you want, when you want, how you want and not end up dead in a ditch then I'd kindly ask you to reconsider that belief. There are many examples of people who have said things only to end up in a bad way as a result. People have always been targeted for their words, or their beliefs, and sure, we have new ways of amplifying the narrative these days via social media and algorithms/AI, but I wanted to stress this is not new to humanity. All it takes is one motivated human and they can wreck havoc on your life - it may be because you said something they took offense to or simply because they decided they no longer like you. There's a lesson in all of this, think before you speak, and before you tweet. As many examples have taught us it will come back to haunt you. If you want to be a public figure that comes with the job I'm afraid.

thefz 6y ago

> I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. While I agree with most of your points on RMS: Freedom of speech exists and is enforced in other countries. Its dawn can be traced back to ancient Greece passing through renaissance and the French revolution. And ironically, the SJW cancel-culture is a US phenomenon only, it's nonexistent in the EU at least. Don't want to rub anyone the wrong way, but from an external standpoint, I would not want American freedom of speech right now, if this is what gets you.

oytis 6y ago
Still freedom of speech is understood much more literally and with fewer exceptions in U.S. than elsewhere. In Germany for one, there is no such thing as freedom of speech, but rather "freedom of opinion". Practically that means that if you want to say something that someone else is not going to like, you have to a) take care not to bring up any facts (e.g. say that someone touched you inappropriately), because as soon as you do that you have to either provide a proof or face slander suit b) still not to cross the line when your opinion can be considered offensive. This doesn't leave a lot of space for free speech. This is not to mention a list of forbidden opinions and symbols for which you will face repercussions from the state itself. Don't want to argue which is the right way, I just mean that "American freedom of speech" is a real thing.
- quonn 6y ago
  > a) take care not to bring up any facts (e.g. say that someone touched you inappropriately), because as soon as you do that you have to either provide a proof or face slander suit Surely you would face slander suits in the US as well if you lie about being touched?
  - oytis 6y ago
    There is a huge difference in who takes the burden of proof. In the U.S. if you accuse someone of slander, you have to prove that what they say is false and malicious. In Germany it's the other way round: the one who is accused is also the one who should prove that what they say is true. Which leaves e.g. little space for #metoo in Germany - either you have proofs and then you go to police/court - or you don't, and then you have to stay silent.

KlinkEastwood 6y ago

HN has got to be one of the few places where the censorship is so strong users feel the need to preemptively apologize and grovel to a single user when they say something that might be against his arbitrary and selectively enforced rules, something that might irk a single user in a site used by 1000s. Naturally this pre apology is followed by a statement about how people cant be blunt or speak their minds freely. How censorship is horrific. And no one sees the irony.

psychiatrist24 6y ago

I would like to know what John Sullivan is thinking, if his resignation is even related to the RSM issue. Does he want to appease the mob? Is he personally disgusted by RSM? Or does he want to be on the right side, and the disgust stems from that (I mean he is disgusted that the "right" people don't get what they want)? I tried to google a bit and since no immediately damning statements by RSM came up, he doesn't bother me with regard to that. Yes, he wrote about paedophilia, but afaik he didn't demand it should be legaized, he just pointed out that it has created some absurd issues, like teens sexting each other being criminalized (afaik - I only googled a bit, and couldn't find damning quotes, so I assume they don't exist). I am more concerned about the anecdotes of his icky behavior (read someone claiming he licked a womans arm, another that he picked flakes from his feet during a lecture). But I have no way to verify if they are true, so I am also holding back judgement.

gimboland 6y ago

> I don't want to live in a world where we can't be forgiven. Forgiveness requires accountability and commitment to change, neither of which have been forthcoming.

CodeGlitch 6y ago
Have you seen his blog? He's admitted failings and mistakes in the past.
- gimboland 6y ago
  I have not, and would be interested to see a link to that (the posting(s) in question, not the whole blog), particularly if it addresses the many accusations of sexual harassment, as my understanding was that this had not happened. Prompted by your comment, I had a look on his site, but nothing seemed to be fit the bill, either in the "Political Articles" section or the "Non-political Articles" section — but maybe I'm looking in the wrong places? Please, enlighten me.
  - CodeGlitch 6y ago
    Sorry I don't have time to dig through his blog right now, but on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Resignation_from_MIT_and_FSF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Resignation_f...
orasis 6y ago
Forgiveness technically does NOT require those things. That’s the point. It’s fore-give-ness.
- GTP 6y ago
  But if you forget for a moment your semantic argument, you find that is actually very hard to forgive somebody that doesn't admit to have done something wrong.

minitech 6y ago

> I was reading comments in another HN thread, and one poster suggested that this might arise from raising kids without bullying. Like the immune system, if we don't develop a central tolerance, perhaps we start attacking everything we find unpleasant? No basis in behavioral science, of course. Forget basis in behavioral science, this has no basis in anything, and you’re deluded if you think kids aren’t still bullied today. What a trash take.

the-dude 6y ago
The environment is profoundly different today than say, 40 years ago. Being different is much easier today. I was seduced by my parents to join a Judo club so I could stand up to myself ( this works wonders ). Last year, I confronted a new millenial neighbour of mine repeatedly on her behaviour of biking on the sidewalk. The biggest problem was she was doing blind corners as well. There are small children here playing, we have elderly with walking aids. It was dangerous. She called the police on me.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  So with your martial arts training you confronted your neighbour - and she called the police? Well, maybe you should try talking calmly next time, then maybe others feel not threatened enough to call the police. Otherwise you have the right to call the police if she insists on being a threat to the children around.
  - Daho0n 6y ago
    A confrontation with "martial arts training" is being mindful and resting in yourself. You try to make it sound like it is behaving aggressively and ready for violence. That's the opposite of what you learn and the risk of someone behaving like this is way higher in those without martial arts training. Besides, I bet you are fully aware that the point GP was making was that his training made him dare say something where he before wouldn't.
    - 6y ago

smt88 6y ago

"Tolerance" doesn't mean someone can have any prominent position they want. I completely support Stallman's right to say that he believes children can consent to sex. It's not sexist or edgy -- it's repulsive and sounds like the stuff Epstein used to say. But he still deserves to have friends and rights. What he doesn't deserve is coworkers or teammates who are forced to pretend he didn't say that stuff. He said it and there are consequences. Could any of the rest of us tweet about our theoretical support for statutory rape and still have jobs? And the things he said that denigrated parents who raise children with Down's syndrome is arguably worse. Twitter is not destroying careers. People are destroying their own careers.

Daho0n 6y ago
The consequence was that he talked to people about it, changed his mind and apologized. That this gets brought up after the fact is not a consequence of his current opinion and everyone knows this. This is a consequence of a mistake he were big enough to public apologize for (unlike most people online) and then later used against him. Besides much of what RMS is saying and doing that makes him stick out and he gets harassed over is because of him being neuroatypical.
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  He didn't apologize for his comments about sex between adults and children.[1] And he didn't say he changed his mind until after he came under pressure to resign. It was his current opinion as far as anyone knew. And that's just 1 of the examples they gave. Neuroatypical people I know are pretty angry about mostly neurotypical people using their condition to rationalize Stallman's bad behavior. [1] https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September...
buisi 6y ago
I think some people have a very naive view of consenting to sex. The idea is they ask someone whether they want to do it, they say yes, and they do it. And they don't really see the harm there. Everyone's happy, right? But, children lack the knowledge to understand what it is they are asking. Children might also agree to things they shouldn't because they want attention, even if it is bad for them, and hurts them. Teenagers might be better off but they're hormone propelled and may make mistakes they really shouldn't. There are power imbalances too where someone feels they should do something they really don't want to do. To be clear, I'm not for criminalizing sex where a small age gap is involved. Throwing teenagers in prison for having sex with each other is counter-productive and harmful. There are better ways to tackle that. The same applies to sexting. But, the burden which would have to be met for an adult to be involved is so high, so risky, and so convoluted that it isn't worth it in practice. Can a judge really make the right call all the time there? Is it worth it? By the way, he has never tweeted his theoretical support for statutory rape. I don't think he even has a twitter account. He made some comments on an obscure personal blog over a couple of decades. Someone went out of their way to dig it out after he appeared in the news.

raverbashing 6y ago

> Do we destroy the pillar we've built our entire livelihoods upon to satisfy a mob? Who says we are? Is Free Software being thrown out of the bus with this? No The question here is RMS re-joining the FSF board. That's it. People are questioning him rejoining a privileged position. It's not a prison sentence. He's not being prevented to earn a living. Yes, nobody is free of blame, everybody has controversial opinions. But at the same time, it's not the right job for him.

bryanrasmussen 6y ago

>one poster suggested that this might arise from raising kids without bullying. bullying is being exposed to the mob, not exposing kids to mobs creates mobs seems somehow counterintuitive.

kitsune_ 6y ago

I think that we do not know whether he is on the autism spectrum. There are articles where RMS states a suspicion but he never underwent an evaluation afaik.

mhh__ 6y ago

> Richard Stallman has said some sexist and edgy things. done some sexist and edgy things. On stage, spoken directly at women. Also, Stallman is a totally incompetent leader - the project is sufficiently niche that I won't name it, but the maintainer mentioned to me that he entered rms's bad book merely by virtue of having children.

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
It is nice how you prove your point about Stallman being totally incompetent leader by providing a very specific and verifiable allegation. Also, now we know that rms has 'bad book' where he puts people with children.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  I would give more detail but the exact project is a reasonably major but narrow piece of GNU with not many maintainers, which I should also add they nearly missed out on for other rms related reasons.
mhh__ 6y ago
C+P of a compelling list from the gcc mailing list I read: 1. 'skeptical that voluntarily pedophilia harms children.’ stallman's own archives 2006-mar-jun I note that children are incapable of consenting. That’s what the age of consent means. 2. 'end censorship of “child pornography”’. Stallman's archives 2012-jul-oct.html Notice use of “quotes” to down play what is actually being requested. 3. 'gentle expressions of attraction’ Stallman's archives 2012-jul-oct.html Condoning a variant of the wolf-whistle. Unless one’s talking to one’s lover, ‘gentle invitations for sex’ by a stranger is grooming (be it child or of-age). 4. Defends someone charged with ‘"sexual assault" on a "child" after a session with a sex worker of age 16.’ stallman's archives 2018-jul-oct Notice the quoting here, implying the child is not a child. ‘The article refers to the sex worker as a "child", but that is not so. Elsewhere it has been published that she is 16 years old. That is late adolescence, not childhood.’ No, they are a child, that’s what the ages of majority and consent mean. 5. The ‘St Ignatius’ ‘EMACS virgins’ non-joke. ‘The commenter writes about seeing the routine when she was only 15, and how RMS singled her out several times during that performance: He actually pointed to me in the back and proclaimed, into the mic, "A GIRL!" causing the audience to turn and look. Mortifying. Then he proceeded to gesture toward me every time he referred to "EMACS Virgins." (I cannot believe that he is still doing the same talk 10+ years later.)’ No wonder women want nothing to do with him. 6. A business card that is completely repelling image on oreilly 7. He knows those cards are inappropriate. He broke the code of conduct he helped author. wiredferret's twitter feed. 8. I understand he’s tried to circumvent such codes of conduct by asking women to meet him outside of the conference venue. _sagesharp_'s twitter feed. 9. He doesn’t acknowledge the few women he has worked with ‘I don’t have any experience working with women in programming projects; I don’t think that any volunteered to work on Emacs or GCC.’ Completely ignoring Sandra Loosemore, who is a coauthor, with him, of the Glibc manual. Sandra was involved with LISP standardization, so I would be surprised if he was unaware of her involvement there. As you well know, she has worked significantly on GCC, GCC has several other women contributors, but too few for complacency. 10. ‘My first interaction with RMS was at a hacker con at 19. He asked my name, I gave it, whether I went to MIT (I had an MIT shirt on), and after confirmation I did, asked me on a date. I said no. That was our entire conversation.’ corbett's twitter feed. This is but one of many reports of utterly inappropriate social interactions.

danpalmer 6y ago

We can't weigh the positive impact a person has had against the unrealised potential for positive impact from all those they forced out of the community. We just don't know if Stallman is a net-positive because we'll never get to see the alternative case. Given this, we can't use an "end justify the means" argument, which means we have to hold people accountable in isolation from any positive impact they may have had.

vmception 6y ago

> I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. You've always lived in this world and this is the America you grew up in. You were lied to. The government has stayed very professional in this, and by that I mean complete absence, which is American freedom of speech.

matthewmacleod 6y ago

I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. But this is a fantasy you made up. We've never lived in a society where you are free to say whatever you want and are isolated from all consequences of that. In fact, you will almost certainly have some lines yourself. There are things that Stallman could have said, or actions that he could have taken, that you personally would agree made it untenable for him to keep his position. I'm unsure why you feel that your position is the only reasonable one to hold, and that anybody who has a different level of tolerance constitutes a "mob". It feels like we're in the midst of a moral panic, but I don't think it's coming from who you seem to think it is.

iagovar 6y ago
> In fact, you will almost certainly have some lines yourself. There are things that Stallman could have said, or actions that he could have taken, that you personally would agree made it untenable for him to keep his position Why so much speculation? He's actually saying the opposite.
prepend 6y ago
> But this is a fantasy you made up This is an ideal held by many that we should strive toward. We may never achieve it in our lifetimes, but it’s still healthy to have a common goal we all work toward. It’s disheartening if I just say “fuck it, we’re hosed, so what’s the point.”

haskal 6y ago

> What do we do about this? Step 1 would be to groom people to leadership positions. How is it that an organization of 35+ years doesn't have a good rank next generation who will take the baton from the old guard? I bet you can't name another member of the FSF. For Linux kernel, I can think of GHK, for Ruby I know quite a few people, but for FSF, the bus factor seems to be 1. Even without all the accusations, FSF should have a leadership they can fallback to. I feared for FSF after Stallman (before the controversy), now I fear for FSF, full stop.

pjmlp 6y ago

Sorry, while I appreciate what he has done and this seems a bit like witch hunt to me, I was already working in IT before GNU happened and most of my work is unrelated to GNU/Linux. Without it, I would still be using Solaris, HP-UX, Tru64, Aix, BSD, ....

Ar-Curunir 6y ago

You’re deluded if you think RMS hasn’t had enough chances at this point.

jamienicol 6y ago

Stallman and the FSF are destroying what they built. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences. We forgive those who show remorse and make amends. Not those who continue their bad behaviour.

KoftaBob 6y ago

"I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds." American freedom of speech in the 1st Amendment states that the US Government can't restrict what you're able to say. It does not state that you're entitled to say what you want without real world consequences.

533474 6y ago

good article that deals quite well with the controversial topics [1] [1] https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web

marcus_holmes 6y ago
really good read. thanks

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op03 6y ago

We dont do anything about it, in the same sense second graders dont have to do anything about tenth grade problems. Social Media, HN included, does a fine job of presenting tenth grade problems to second graders everyday. As if that isnt misguided enough (no org or edu system ever does that and produces good outcomes), it creates a rallying point for all the second graders in world to show up and discuss the tenth grade problem on the board. Its a waste of time. Thats all it is. There are second graders who understand that, and there are second graders who will get carried away by the numbers at the rallying point and go storm the capitol or whatever bullshit a second grade herd can come up with. Any time anyone starts getting anxious over problems the internet happily plants in their head, thats a clear signal they are dealing with problems above their paygrade. There is only one valid move to make, shrug it off and head back to the second grade classroom. There is no evidence social media or hn debates have ever contributed to solutions to anything extremely complex. And there is enough evidence they just increase the complexity of the problem.

hutzlibu 6y ago

"What do we do about this? " I would start with having debates based in reality and not ideology, like this: "Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. "

Doctor_Fegg 6y ago

> Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement The "Free Software" movement (cap F, cap S), yes. > and he's the reason we all have jobs No. There was a sizeable movement for public domain software before Stallman. Stallman brought along a particular ideology and one which resonated with a lot of people, as well as coding a bunch of software himself. But it is an incredible reach to say that, without Stallman, there wouldn't have been the option to "spin up a server for free and compile code without paying a license". How do you know that? I ran a "public domain library" back in the 8-bit days, as did many others. It was code you could distribute freely, and where you could play around and build upon the source. You could argue that Stallman's Free Software was another descendant of the early '80s public domain software culture, but you cannot presume that public domain software would have withered and died without Stallman. I think it's vanishingly unlikely, in fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_free_and_open-source_software#Free_software_before_the_1980s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_free_and_open-sourc... is worth reading.

Taniwha 6y ago
Yup, long before I ever heard of Stallman we were passing around mag tapes full of software to share - people brought stuff to conferences and conference tapes were a thing
- sam_lowry_ 6y ago
  This is called pirating, now. I think Stallman contributed a lot to keep the sharing economy legal.
  - Taniwha 6y ago
    No it's not, sharing the source code of stuff you create yourself with others is not 'pirating', it basn't then and it isn't now (we're talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_track_tape https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_track_tape here)
    - 6y ago

Stratoscope 6y ago

> Richard Stallman single-handedly created the free software movement, and he's the reason we all have jobs. WTF? I had a job long before RMS came on the scene, and I still have one. Whatever my feelings about Stallman, he doesn't get credit for that. And I was giving away source code way before FSF existed. We didn't have fancy names or licenses back in those days, we just called it "public domain".

detaro 6y ago

Stallman is not the pillar things are build on. Yes, he's had a monumental impact on the software world, but it's a mistake to bind the concept of Free Software to him and pretend it needs him personally to be involved. It doesn't, and hasn't for a long time. Today, it's likely better off without him involved at high level, if the past decade of the FSF is anything to go by. And it's not that we "live in a world where we can't be forgiven", but there is little to suggest that there is any meaningful commitment to change, instead RMS is just back somehow for some reason, without warning (i.e. nobody at LibrePlanet apparently knew that was coming, including the organizers and participants that had explicitly requested to not be involved with him). Not surprising that doesn't satisfy people.

buisi 6y ago
To be fair, he was only re-appointed for a short while before he was cancelled. We don't even know what his plans are.

andrewaylett 6y ago

Stallman has shown that he's a man of his principles, and willing to stick by them even at great personal cost. Obviously he's most famous for his dedication to Free Software. But in recent years, he's made it very clear that Free Software isn't actually the most important principle in his life: his freedom to act abusively is more important. When Stallman was asked to choose between Free Software and abusive behaviour, he chose abusive behaviour. And what we're seeing now is the fallout from the decision he made. It's cost him a lot, yes, but that's his choice. Would that it were less costly for those who have suffered at his hands.

GTP 6y ago

>I was reading comments in another HN thread, and one poster >suggested that this might arise from raising kids without >bullying. Like the immune system, if we don't develop a >central tolerance, perhaps we start attacking everything we >find unpleasant? No basis in behavioral science, of course. I'm not sure I understood what are you trying to say here, are you suggesting that a "small dose" of bullying is beneficial to a child's development?

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bjourne 6y ago

I agree with you, but it would behoove you to note that most career destructions haven't been the work of mobs - they have been the work of white elites and old boys' networks. Dozens of academics have had their careers ruined because they espoused views the elites found uncomfortable. For each public career destruction, you have chilling effects that are orders of magnitudes larger; academics have to choose between saying what they think and having a job and many choose the latter. By all means, defend Stallman's right to say thoughtless and sexist things, but also spend some time defending those who have been fired for trying to unionize their workplace, those who can't get a job because they have publicly campaigned for a political party, and for victims of workplace sexual harassment who can't speak up about it because they would be effectively blacklisted.

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AndrewDucker 6y ago

Has Richard apologied? Has he asked for forgiveness? Because if he keeps saying upsetting things and never apologises or tries to learn then he's driving people away. And that makes him a bad fit for a leadership position.

meribold 6y ago

The fact that parent created a "risky_opinions" throwaway for sharing their rather moderate take on this controversy should tell all of us that something is going wrong.

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