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The article says "China is targeting more Western clothes retailers". But it should be noted that this backlash and boycotting of western clothing brands is don

• baybal2 6y ago
  I would've only said that I laught at your naivete, but the gravity of the matter doesn't allow. 100 of random celebrities make nearly word for word identical posts within hours of each other? Your naivete was exploited. This is a very typical operation by the propaganda ministry. P.S. I assume you are Chinese, and I cannot believe somebody with that level of intellectual achievement to make it to the West can't see a banal lie, when it is a joke material for local taxi drivers.
  • FooBarWidget 6y ago
    Are they word for word identical? Can you show me? This is not meant to criticize your comment, I am truly curious about your sources. You say it's propaganda. From everything I've seen, Chinese propaganda is much more crude and much more official than that. They don't force other people — like celebrities — what to say, they broadcast via state TV channels and they put up huge banners. They have censorship, which means forbidding certain things, but I've never seen them coercing celebrities to say things they don't agree with. In general people can choose to stay quiet and not get involved. Do you have evidence that shows that the celebrity statements are coerced? Again: this is not criticism, I am truly curious about your sources. From what I understand, nationalism in China is real. Do you perhaps dispute this notion?
    • ecnerwala 6y ago
      Agree that there is no need for CCP to coerce celebrities. But, help me understand, why should we give a rat's ass about what those celebrities say in favor of CCP policies, given that their only options are (1) Keep quiet (2) Endorse.
      • FooBarWidget 6y ago
        I don't comment on whether you should care. I am merely stating some facts. It's up to you to decide what to do with it.
        • zaphirplane 6y ago
          Not to pile on, objectively they are not facts but partial observations with concrete conclusions
        • ecnerwala 6y ago
          Well, my point isn't really about whether I care or not. Any rational actor wouldn't give any weightage to celebrities supporting an authoritarian regime, simply because they don't have any other options. (The "option" to keep quiet can be taken away any time. Although I agree that this particular instance wouldn't warrant such measures.)
          • FooBarWidget 6y ago
            I find it interesting that you say that at any time they could be forced to say something. Can you show me some sources that indicate that this practice exists after the end of the Cultural Revolution? I am not criticizing you, I truly want to know because this is not something I am aware of. Can you comment on past track record? In any of the previous boycotts (for example against Dolce & Gabanna who made a racist video, or against Japan honoring war criminals), have you seen evidence of peopke coerced by the government to say something, or people being prosecuted for staying quiet?
            • 6y ago
  • oreally 6y ago
    > This is a very typical operation by the propaganda ministry. Needs proof
  • oefrha 6y ago
    > P.S. I assume you are Chinese, and I cannot believe somebody with that level of intellectual achievement to make it to the West can't see a banal lie, when it is a joke material for local taxi drivers. That personal attack is totally unnecessary.
  • deleted 6y ago
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  • dang 6y ago
    We've had to warn you before about violating the site guidelines. You've reverted to doing it extremely badly. If that continues we're going to have to ban you again. You ought to know better by now. Ideological attacks, nationalistic attacks, personal attacks, and ethnic attacks are not what this site is for. We ban such accounts. No more of this please.
• ecnerwala 6y ago
  Do they have any other option other than "support" Xinjiang cotton? The only other option Dilraba possibly would've had is "re-education."
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  • FooBarWidget 6y ago
    Yes they have. They can choose to stay quiet and not say anything. Such boycotts and backlashes are short-lived. If you look at past boycotts — against Dolce & Gabanna who made a racist commercial, or against the Japanese prime minister visiting war crime shrines — then you also see that after a while people forget about the boycott and continue to buy things. None of those were government-instigated either: in fact the government actively called on people to calm down. There was for example a restaurant in Shenyang which put on an anti-Japanese banner, and the police told him to take it down because it's too insulting to Japan. So yes celebrities absolutely have a choice to wait until the fuss is over.
• EdSchouten 6y ago
  From the article: "While H&M's physical stores in China remain, it is no longer possible to hail a taxi to the shops using an app" That doesn't seem like it's solely the choice of consumers/various celebrities.
  • FooBarWidget 6y ago
    Taxi app companies aren't government-owned.
    • jeswin 6y ago
      Why would privately-held Taxi App companies unanimously take these brands off the maps? It's not like people are going to feel bad if they see H&M on the map, and lash out against a Taxi app.
      • FooBarWidget 6y ago
        You probably know how patriotic Americans are, right? Well: Chinese are the same! Chinese nationalism is a thing. Although I'm not sure whether you believe that. In fact, nationalism is a thing in many Asian countries. In South Korea, there was recently a backlash against a K-drama for depicting that certain cultural elements may have originated from China. I don't know anything about the historical facts surrounding that case, but this is an example of how strong nationalism can be in east-Asian countries, including China.
        • pjc50 6y ago
          Yes, and in both cases that makes people easily led into boycotts or panics by propaganda.
      • phantomathkg 6y ago
        Simply because if they don't, the app will be attacked by the mass.
        • 6y ago
• utrechtsouth 6y ago
  > But it should be noted that this backlash and boycotting of western clothing brands is done by Chinese people, not by the Chinese government. No it's the government.
• RA_Fisher 6y ago
  So China will allow loads of Western journalists to investigate without hinderance? Excellent! Access has been heavily restricted so far, so I’m eager to see the results of China’s new-found forthrightness on the issue. If it’s as China says: show us.
  • scarmig 6y ago
    China also doesn't allow loads of Western journalists to investigate pretty much anywhere in China, so that can't really be taken as particular evidence that a "genocide" is happening in Xinjiang. Send a journalist to a random factory in Shenzhen and have them start questioning workers about how much they like the CCP and you'll get a similar response.
  • a0-prw 6y ago
    If I was a responsible decision maker in China, wether or not I had something to hide, I would not allow Western journalists free access. The Western press is largely, though not entirely, a mouthpiece of the Western intelligence agencies. Why would anyone allow the presstitutes in ?
• pjc50 6y ago
  > Various people have pointed out that they do not believe the forced labor stories, because over 70% of cotton in Xinjiang is picked by machines. Whether you believe this statistic is up to you — I'm simply saying that this statistic has been mentioned. The point of forced labour in these situations is not the efficient picking of cotton but as a form of punishment. > western narrative of forced labor cotton Are we calling everything we disagree with a "narrative" now? We don't have all the facts on Xinjiang because journalism is prevented there - which in and of itself should make us suspicious.
  • heraclius 6y ago
    Narratives can be correct or incorrect (and this one is mostly correct insofar as it makes specific claims about the treatment of Uyghurs in Xinjiang.) Calling a set of claims a narrative for the purpose of pointing out some people don’t agree doesn’t entail that those claims are wrong.
  • FooBarWidget 6y ago
    > Are we calling everything we disagree with My comment is not a statement on whether I agree or disagree. "Narrative" is a neutral word. Something can be a narrative even if it's true and I agree with it.
    • kif 6y ago
      > "Narrative" is a neutral word Not necessarily: a representation of a particular situation or process in such a way as to reflect or conform to an overarching set of aims or values
  • scarmig 6y ago
    > The point of forced labour in these situations is not the efficient picking of cotton but as a form of punishment. Punishment isn't the right word. The goal is to obliterate Uyghur village life and shift them to a legible lifestyle that is integrated into the Chinese mass market. Having them e.g. pick cotton, aside from being a convenient way to pay off well-connected supporters, makes the Uyghurs dependent on a regime-friendly company and also gives them more income to buy the same goods and consume the same media as the rest of China. ETA: I'm confused as to whether this comment pissed off a bunch of wumao or pissed off a bunch of Americans who somehow managed to misread it as praising China. An explanation of a bad behavior isn't a justification for it, but something that can help provide insight into why it's happening and possible pressure points to stop it.
• kif 6y ago
  I don't see the fact about the Uyghur celebrity you singled out as interesting, for the simple fact that she's in China. As is painfully well known outside of China, they have a way of making businessmen disappear: https://money.cnn.com/2017/06/14/investing/china-missing-executives-anbang/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2017/06/14/investing/china-missing-exe... So I really don't see how any of your points make sense, about companies being private and all. The truth is there's no democracy in China. Anything that comes out of there must be taken with a truckload of salt. Kind of like the ridiculous Covid numbers, that put the total number of cases in China lower than countries with a population 500x smaller than theirs.
  • kif 6y ago
    Seems like this site has taken a turn for the worse. I expect downvotes without discourse on Reddit, it being a social media and all, but I thought the people here were above it. Oh well...
    • FooBarWidget 6y ago
      For what its worth: people on both sides get downvoted without discussion. You're not alone.
      • kif 6y ago
        Yeah, I'm fairly aware. And it is a bit painful to see, because in the end I prefer some good discourse vs "winning" or "losing" an argument.
• yorwba 6y ago
  > Many do not agree with the western narrative of forced labor cotton. Which implies that they haven't read their country's criminal law (which requires all able-bodied prisoners to work) or didn't think through it's implications (of course there's forced labor cotton, the same way there's forced labor rice, forced labor coal and forced labor textiles.) Mechanization doesn't negate that, since being forced to operate the cotton-picking machines or a sewing machine is still forced labor. But part of the blame lies with the "Western narrative" not trying very hard to be believable. E.g. using "Xinjiang" as a shorthand for "Uyghur forced labor" when 1) there are other ethnic groups in Xinjiang 2) forced labor affects at most a few percent of the population (to be clear, that's still hundreds of thousands of people) and 3) it's not limited to Xinjiang, but applies to all of China (as I said, prisoners are required by law to work.) In the West, Western reporting on China operates in easy mode: hardly anyone has the background knowledge to notice imprecise or even incorrect reporting. But Chinese people are going to notice a disconnect with their daily lived experience. That disconnect can be explained, but I've yet to see a Western journalist do a good job explaining it, or even realize that there's something to explain.
• ipiz0618 6y ago
  You're only mentioning facts, but not all of the facts. The way you emphasised your comment as merely mentioning facts is making it obvious that you are selectively picking facts in favour of some narrative. Care to mention how coordinated the "support XinJiang cotton" statements are? Like all the "support Hong Kong Police" posts before? I can also say I'm only commenting on the facts surrounding the situation. It's interesting you mentioned Dilraba. If China can threaten Uighurs overseas, I wonder how one inside the country can wilfully oppose any propaganda.
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  • FooBarWidget 6y ago
    I apologize if it came over as claiming that those are all facts. It is not meant as an exhaustive list of facts. In fact, I declare that I am not able to list all facts exhaustively. I mentioned the facts that I know of, and that I think add something to the discussion (i.e. not things that people haven't already heard a million times). Since you believe I missed mentioning important facts, I implore you to elaborate them. This is not meant as sarcasm, I'm truly curious about what you can add. For example, you say that the statements are coordinated. Can you show examples and data?