8 ms·

Tony Hsieh bankrolled his followers, who enabled his risky lifestyle

109 points by stevenj 6y ago

prionassembly 6y ago
I didn't know about this. I can't open the link, but I read https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/26/technology/tony-hsieh-death.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/26/technology/tony-hsieh-dea... and the whole thing seems classic untreated bipolar disorder. I wonder how much of SV shenanigans can be attributed to manic breakdowns. There was already a "hypomanic advantage" meme going around a while ago; and, of course, thinking you can slightly toe the line towards a controled flirt with mania is classical bipolar anosognosia. PSA: For many years, I self-administered the Young's Mania Ratings Scale everytime I felt the scales begin to tip. It's very short and impressively insightful. You might not know what mania is actually is, and if you live a high-intensity lifestyle you owe it to yourself to take it just once: https://psychology-tools.com/test/young-mania-rating-scale https://psychology-tools.com/test/young-mania-rating-scale
- Elof 6y ago
  I've been in tech in the Bay Area for 15 years, mostly in startups, and I can say that untreated mental health issues (myself included for many years) are a very real thing.
- rchaud 6y ago
  I wonder if this will be the new frontier of bio-hacking: attempting to replicate the symptoms of mania to get a "performance advantage".
  - Jtsummers 6y ago
    This is one reason some people use some kinds of drugs (particularly uppers of various sorts). They create a temporary manic or hypomanic state, even if that's not the term the users would choose to describe the produced state. Of course, it doesn't always lead to positive or even neutral outcomes especially as many are habit forming and the user can develop a tolerance to it (necessitating more of the drug in order to achieve a comparable effect as before, which exacerbates issues stemming from the side effects and high-dose/long-term use). Look at college students and knowledge workers using various ADD/ADHD medications, as an example.
  - redisman 6y ago
    Is mania a desired state though? It's very chaotic and we already have adderall. I would guess it was more of a facsimile of happiness than a productivity hack. I'm partying all day, my mood is chemically elevated so surely this is what happiness is right?
    - rchaud 6y ago
      That's why it's called 'bio-hacking'. Implicit in the name is the assumption that you can have the benefits of something without the natural drawbacks.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- sneak 6y ago
  > and, of course, thinking you can slightly toe the line towards a controled flirt with mania is classical bipolar anosognosia. This is one of those amazingly insightful things sort of hiding in plain sight. There is some plain wisdom right here.
mensetmanusman 6y ago
US-centric views of love have evolved more towards ‘if it feels right, do it’ It feels odd to tell anyone ‘no’ because people think you are judging them, so most just stay quiet. In a different culture, Tony may have survived if people felt comfortable questioning dangerous behavior.
- haram_masala 6y ago
  There’s a Russian saying, “Your friends are the ones who can tell you ‘no.’”
  - codezero 6y ago
    These truisms tend only to apply to people who are subject to social pressure, a feature that goes away when you are wealthy enough.
    - ProAm 6y ago
      People who do not listen to their friends are already dead.
  - jfengel 6y ago
    There's an American joke that "Your friend is the one who comes to bail you out of jail. Your best friend is the one next to you in the cell going, "Duuuude, that was AWESOME!!!!" It's a joke, but the humor exists because it illustrates the idea that the people really like their enablers. Not everybody would find the joke funny, though I have no idea if Americans in general find it funnier than people from other cultures.
    - webmaven 6y ago
      > There's an American joke that "Your friend is the one who comes to bail you out of jail. Your best friend is the one next to you in the cell going, "Duuuude, that was AWESOME!!!!" Another stab in the same general vicinity is: "A friend will help you move. A REAL friend will help you move a body."
recursivedoubts 6y ago
“In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.”
- airhead969 6y ago
  C.S. Lewis, Abolition of Man. It's the epitome of unreasonable expectations: a self-fulfilling prophecy by setup. "Yes men" are terrible, especially if they're there to mooch rather than question or be more than good weather "friends."
29athrowaway 6y ago
Most narcos do the same thing. Escobar was powerful, in part, because he donated millions of dollars for the construction of residential units in Colombia.
Leary 6y ago
"Among the many friends the entrepreneur made over his life, some said the cause of his death had spanned many months, in plain sight to those who surrounded him. Last summer, his Park City companions hired an on-call doctor. Unless Mr. Hsieh moderated his drug and alcohol use, the doctor said, he would die within six months." It's one thing to overly indulge a billionaire friend, it's another to endanger his physical/mental well being to the point of death.
- rchaud 6y ago
  You cannot forcibly make someone go to rehab. People are quick to blame his 'friends', but it appears that they hired a personal doctor, who gave doctorly advice. What more could they do?
  - caycep 6y ago
    In geriatric medicine, there is a somewhat defined, albeit difficult, process of declaring someone medically incompetent to manage their own affairs; they usually are committed to specialized (memory care) facilities. In some cases, the symptoms and rationale are clearly obvious. In others...these patients can be vulnerable to less scrupulous individuals. For a wealthy high functioning billionaire, but one who is arguably affected by dopamine dysregulation that compromises his faculties, I'd imagine it's a trickier path to walk...
    - rchaud 6y ago
      The press have already painted his friends as opportunistic hangers-on. Imagine how it would have looked if they actually started making moves to take on power of attorney.
      - caycep 6y ago
        yeah...that's what seems to make it especially tricky. There would have to be a good lawyer involved, and I'm not sure how they would find a trusted third party to be the conservator...
ethanbond 6y ago
> Ms. Baleson helped spearhead plans for a wellness center at the Ranch, hoping to pull Mr. Hsieh out of his spiral. The plans were canceled in September after a disagreement in the group over who should get a commission for the project. Sheesh... this really sums it up. Tragic.
ericskiff 6y ago
The excerpts from Jewel's letter to Tony are heartbreaking. It seems that she saw where he was headed, the situation he had put himself in, and what was likely to happen as a result. https://www.forbes.com/sites/angelauyeung/2020/12/04/tony-hsiehs-american-tragedy-the-self-destructive-last-months-of-the-zappos-visionary/?sh=1071631e4f22 https://www.forbes.com/sites/angelauyeung/2020/12/04/tony-hs...
colmvp 6y ago
Within minutes of his death breaking the news, someone in the comment posted on HN about this enablement. I had skepticism but it also felt way too specific and out of nowhere for me to think they were lying. It was heartbreaking to eventually realize it was indeed the truth.
- neonate 6y ago
  Do you mean https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=exzappos https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=exzappos?
  - colmvp 6y ago
    Yup, precisely.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  It's what I call the Michael Jackson Effect. Someone surrounds themselves with people who are financially dependent on them, so they only tell them that they're great, and whatever they do is the best thing that has ever happened. The unchecked praise-money feedback loop eventually leads to the host's destruction. See also: Silicon Valley.
Drblessing 6y ago
This is a tragedy and I sympathize with everyone involved. Also, a lesson to not surround yourself with sycophants and drugs. It's easy to blame the sycophants, but Mr. Hsieh would have replaced anyone who tried to help. Imagine you're around and care about him. Is it better to stick around and try to help, as they attempted with the wellness center and doctor, or just leave him to the wolves?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
datavirtue 6y ago
Is there a non-paywall version anywhere?
- veeti 6y ago
  https://archive.is/I4O0E https://archive.is/I4O0E
magneticnorth 6y ago
I appreciate the more nuanced view of the way his entourage both enabled and tried to help him. Earlier coverage (that I saw) just focused on the fact that all his friends were on his payroll and were forbidden from trying to get him to rehab or an intervention. But it sounds like many were trying to help in ways they could come up with that Tony would tolerate - hiring the doctor, for example. And it sounds like his family had started considering a conservatorship, as well. I'm glad to have the impression that he wasn't surrounded only by sycophants - it sounds like he was a fundamentally good person trying to do good in the world, and it's a more positive thought that many of his friends were trying to meet him where he was and get him back on track, rather than only enabling his downward spiral - though certainly it sounds like there was plenty of that, too.
- hangonhn 6y ago
  A teacher of mine once told us that "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." I think that's one of the paradoxes of life and we see this over and over again where a lot of good people try to do the right thing but the collective effects of their efforts end up being net negative. Rather than conspiracies, I think this paradox can explain some of the challenges we face today. Barbara Tuchman wrote a great book called "The March of Folly" that basically documents some famous cases of people unwittingly working against their own best interest, even if the individual steps themselves might have made sense.
goat_whisperer 6y ago
Anyone else get a sense that something similar is happening with Elon Musk? Guy seems to be unraveling
- datavirtue 6y ago
  Yeah, obvious for some time now. His wife looks ematiated and his kid is named with hieroglyphic symbols or some shit. This on top of the weird tweets and eccentric displays. He reminds me of a high functioning addict. Met quite a few business owner addicts in my time.
d3ntb3ev1l 6y ago
Billionaire dies partying. Fucks given: zero
- dang 6y ago
  You may not owe billionaires better, but you owe this community considerably better if you're participating in it. Please review the rules and stick to them from now on: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
neonate 6y ago
https://archive.is/I4O0E https://archive.is/I4O0E
s5300 6y ago
The sticky notes of meaningless delusions/motivational words younger grade schoolers may be urged to think and write about how they feel of them seem oddly reminiscent of pictures surrounding Kanye West in recent years. For quite some time, and still, I believe he's going to end up at the center of the next cult shootout we see in the US. I was lucky to have met Tony twice, having a decent discussion one time. What happened is really unfortunate, and I feel as if we're going to see very similar situations unfold with many of those who are new money making a fortune from tech. I imagine it's got to be unfathomably hard to stay grounded and find meaning after acquiring so much money. All the syncophants in the world will come after you, and as it's been seen with Musk, many others will attempt to bet against any future endeavors of yours just to make a quick buck.
viklove 6y ago
Whip-its? This guy had $840M and his drug of choice was whip-its? That is strangely amusing...
- ng12 6y ago
  Whip-its have become pretty popular among the burning man crowd. I remember seeing piles in East Palo Alto parking lots and wondering if they were from bored kids or bored techies.
  - waterfowl 6y ago
    maybe the implication is that it is surprising he would be cracking whipped cream chargers vs. using his billionaire concierge connections to get a tank(crooked dentist, whatever). Would look classier than 10000 little chargers in piles -- nitrous addicts can consume a staggering quantity of little pods, basically back to back constantly every 15 seconds for hours. It is reportedly very 'moreish', as the brits would say.
    - AlanYx 6y ago
      Previous articles about his death mentioned that he also had portable nitrous tanks that he'd use on walks outdoors in Park City and in other situations where he couldn't go through individual whip-its. His being tethered to the tank was one of the things that motivated Jewel to write the letter.
  - datavirtue 6y ago
    They are very expensive and have pretty heavy effects. Not sustainable. I couldn't really do that many because of the impact. Hard to imagine what his knock on effects were. Well...
jamesgreenleaf 6y ago
One simple and obvious lesson to point out here is that you better make peace with yourself before coming into possession of any large sum. Money can destroy you just as easily as it can empower you. Look at what happens to a significant percentage of lottery winners. It's an amplifier, and it can amplify your problems and self-destructive tendencies along with your desire to do good.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  Young athletes seems to be another really big case of this. Lots of people with short careers but huge earnings who either cannot handle the money or hand their finances over to people who try to take advantage of them.
- datavirtue 6y ago
  I've seen quite a few people go out like this. Back in the late 1990's I founded a head shop that later gave birth to multiple locations and had family members and friends getting rich. Lost two family members (dead), can't speak to another one (my father), I ended up arrested as a consequence of my brother's withdrawal symptoms, a business partner went off the deep end smoking crack and meth while leading an entourage of prostitutes and flipping a vehicle or two while ditching his family of twenty years, and my father was doing nearly the same shit while secreting hookers at his elderly mother's house. He ended up in jail on serious drug charges. This isn't even about half the shit that went down. So yeah, success and money can really trash lives if people aren't ready or they have underlying issues, but a lot of times you don't see it coming. Before that we ran a fairly uneventful chain of video rental stores and otherwise led a bog normal and happy middle class life.
  - avrionov 6y ago
    What is a head shop?
    - pasttense01 6y ago
      "A head shop is a retail outlet specializing in paraphernalia used for consumption of cannabis and tobacco and items related to cannabis culture and related countercultures." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_shop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_shop
jzellis 6y ago
I worked for one of the startups Tony funded in Vegas and was around for most of the Downtown Project stuff, and was also one of the most vocal critics of what happened there. This story covers just the tip of the iceberg. I'm really sorry he died, even though I was horrified by the externalities of what he did in my town and, frankly, didn't much like the cat personally. But this idea that all of this started when he went to Park City is just not true. The culture of heavy boozing and drugs was very much always a big factor in the Vegas downtown tech scene. I don't think that statement would be considered controversial by anyone who was around for the real surge of it, from about 2010 - 2014 or so. And look, I'm not a Puritan or an abstainer, but it's hard to take people seriously when most of the meetings seem to be done whole day drinking at the casino or by the pool in the Ogden condo. Whatever. It's all over with now. I didn't even know Tony had left town - he'd stopped really making the scene outside his trailer park long before that. I wish he'd had people who could help him, but he spent a long time being told that he was an instinctual visionary whose every act was an act of genius. That isn't very good for honest self-evaluation. I wish everything had happened differently, but it didn't. It's a shame.
- sadgrip 6y ago
  Hey I'm from Vegas as well and I have a friend getting his MFA working on a story on the Downtown Project and it seems like he's coming to a lot of the conclusions you've come to. If it's possible I'd love to get you in touch with him to talk about your experience a bit.
- devinegan 6y ago
  I was a founder of a VTF (downtown project VC) funded company. We had an exit. I can’t vouch for the rest of the companies but hard drinking wasn’t part of our culture. Careful painting all of us with that brush. I was around for the first Vegas Jelly, and was funded in 2012 so I would be part of the “surge” you defined.
Animats 6y ago
In the end, he's just another dead junkie. At least he didn't take anyone else with him.
- lenitabinol 6y ago
  What's the point in disparaging the dead.
  - Animats 6y ago
    To discourage adoration and emulation.
- ksm1717 6y ago
  Congrats! Pure evil take!
lookalike74 6y ago
When a random addict dies everyone knows whose fault it is. But when a rich addict dies, everyone wants to know whose fault it is. Sure.
- stickfigure 6y ago
  That's unnecessarily cynical. Tony Hsieh was not just some random rich guy, particularly not to this community.
throwaway5752 6y ago
With all due respect (and not saying these groups have overlap) there is a notable presence of people on Hacker News that minimize the danger of or encourage drug experimentation, if not regular drug use. Tony Hsieh is ultimately responsible for his choices that led to his tragic and early death. But it leaves a bad taste to see people calling out his entourage here and then other people advocating similar behavior in other submissions.
- sneak 6y ago
  > With all due respect (and not saying these groups have overlap) there is a notable presence of people on Hacker News that minimize the danger of or encourage drug experimentation, if not regular drug use. I think a better way of describing it is a continuum of belief around drugs. Most people aren't talking about caffeine or alcohol when they say "drug use" but those are indeed psychoactive drugs as well. "All drugs are wrong, but some are useful." is perhaps a useful model for thinking about it? (Not that I think drugs are wrong, just that nothing, and I mean nothing, in life is without cost in a cost/benefit analysis.) All substances we ingest, from distilled water, to table salt, to a cup of coffee, broccoli, a beer, a cheeseburger, morphine, or methamphetamine have various effects, long term and short, on our bodies, and we should understand those effects as best we can before we ingest any of them. I've seen ketamine save people's lives, and I've seen it destroy people's lives. Same with firearms. Sharp tools are a good thing, on balance, in my opinion, but should be wielded with knowledge and understanding in order to be safe.
  - webmaven 6y ago
    > All substances we ingest, from distilled water, to table salt, to a cup of coffee, broccoli, a beer, a cheeseburger, morphine, or methamphetamine have various effects, long term and short, on our bodies, and we should understand those effects as best we can before we ingest any of them. Don't forget sugar: https://www.webmd.com/diabetes/features/how-sugar-affects-your-body https://www.webmd.com/diabetes/features/how-sugar-affects-yo...
- kgin 6y ago
  Are there really posts advocating similar behavior to this story? I think I've missed those.
okareaman 6y ago
Reminder: Nitrous can be highly addictive: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25327689 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25327689

109 points by stevenj 6y ago

I didn't know about this. I can't open the link, but I read https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/26/technology/tony-hsieh-death.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/26/technology/tony-hsieh-dea... and the whole thing seems classic untreated bipolar disorder. I wonder how much of SV shenanigans can be attributed to manic breakdowns. There was already a "hypomanic advantage" meme going around a while ago; and, of course, thinking you can slightly toe the line towards a controled flirt with mania is classical bipolar anosognosia. PSA: For many years, I self-administered the Young's Mania Ratings Scale everytime I felt the scales begin to tip. It's very short and impressively insightful. You might not know what mania is actually is, and if you live a high-intensity lifestyle you owe it to yourself to take it just once: https://psychology-tools.com/test/young-mania-rating-scale https://psychology-tools.com/test/young-mania-rating-scale

Elof 6y ago
I've been in tech in the Bay Area for 15 years, mostly in startups, and I can say that untreated mental health issues (myself included for many years) are a very real thing.
rchaud 6y ago
I wonder if this will be the new frontier of bio-hacking: attempting to replicate the symptoms of mania to get a "performance advantage".
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  This is one reason some people use some kinds of drugs (particularly uppers of various sorts). They create a temporary manic or hypomanic state, even if that's not the term the users would choose to describe the produced state. Of course, it doesn't always lead to positive or even neutral outcomes especially as many are habit forming and the user can develop a tolerance to it (necessitating more of the drug in order to achieve a comparable effect as before, which exacerbates issues stemming from the side effects and high-dose/long-term use). Look at college students and knowledge workers using various ADD/ADHD medications, as an example.
- redisman 6y ago
  Is mania a desired state though? It's very chaotic and we already have adderall. I would guess it was more of a facsimile of happiness than a productivity hack. I'm partying all day, my mood is chemically elevated so surely this is what happiness is right?
  - rchaud 6y ago
    That's why it's called 'bio-hacking'. Implicit in the name is the assumption that you can have the benefits of something without the natural drawbacks.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
sneak 6y ago
> and, of course, thinking you can slightly toe the line towards a controled flirt with mania is classical bipolar anosognosia. This is one of those amazingly insightful things sort of hiding in plain sight. There is some plain wisdom right here.

mensetmanusman 6y ago

US-centric views of love have evolved more towards ‘if it feels right, do it’ It feels odd to tell anyone ‘no’ because people think you are judging them, so most just stay quiet. In a different culture, Tony may have survived if people felt comfortable questioning dangerous behavior.

haram_masala 6y ago
There’s a Russian saying, “Your friends are the ones who can tell you ‘no.’”
- codezero 6y ago
  These truisms tend only to apply to people who are subject to social pressure, a feature that goes away when you are wealthy enough.
  - ProAm 6y ago
    People who do not listen to their friends are already dead.
- jfengel 6y ago
  There's an American joke that "Your friend is the one who comes to bail you out of jail. Your best friend is the one next to you in the cell going, "Duuuude, that was AWESOME!!!!" It's a joke, but the humor exists because it illustrates the idea that the people really like their enablers. Not everybody would find the joke funny, though I have no idea if Americans in general find it funnier than people from other cultures.
  - webmaven 6y ago
    > There's an American joke that "Your friend is the one who comes to bail you out of jail. Your best friend is the one next to you in the cell going, "Duuuude, that was AWESOME!!!!" Another stab in the same general vicinity is: "A friend will help you move. A REAL friend will help you move a body."

recursivedoubts 6y ago

“In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.”

airhead969 6y ago
C.S. Lewis, Abolition of Man. It's the epitome of unreasonable expectations: a self-fulfilling prophecy by setup. "Yes men" are terrible, especially if they're there to mooch rather than question or be more than good weather "friends."

29athrowaway 6y ago

Most narcos do the same thing. Escobar was powerful, in part, because he donated millions of dollars for the construction of residential units in Colombia.

Leary 6y ago

"Among the many friends the entrepreneur made over his life, some said the cause of his death had spanned many months, in plain sight to those who surrounded him. Last summer, his Park City companions hired an on-call doctor. Unless Mr. Hsieh moderated his drug and alcohol use, the doctor said, he would die within six months." It's one thing to overly indulge a billionaire friend, it's another to endanger his physical/mental well being to the point of death.

rchaud 6y ago
You cannot forcibly make someone go to rehab. People are quick to blame his 'friends', but it appears that they hired a personal doctor, who gave doctorly advice. What more could they do?
- caycep 6y ago
  In geriatric medicine, there is a somewhat defined, albeit difficult, process of declaring someone medically incompetent to manage their own affairs; they usually are committed to specialized (memory care) facilities. In some cases, the symptoms and rationale are clearly obvious. In others...these patients can be vulnerable to less scrupulous individuals. For a wealthy high functioning billionaire, but one who is arguably affected by dopamine dysregulation that compromises his faculties, I'd imagine it's a trickier path to walk...
  - rchaud 6y ago
    The press have already painted his friends as opportunistic hangers-on. Imagine how it would have looked if they actually started making moves to take on power of attorney.
    - caycep 6y ago
      yeah...that's what seems to make it especially tricky. There would have to be a good lawyer involved, and I'm not sure how they would find a trusted third party to be the conservator...

ethanbond 6y ago

> Ms. Baleson helped spearhead plans for a wellness center at the Ranch, hoping to pull Mr. Hsieh out of his spiral. The plans were canceled in September after a disagreement in the group over who should get a commission for the project. Sheesh... this really sums it up. Tragic.

ericskiff 6y ago

The excerpts from Jewel's letter to Tony are heartbreaking. It seems that she saw where he was headed, the situation he had put himself in, and what was likely to happen as a result. https://www.forbes.com/sites/angelauyeung/2020/12/04/tony-hsiehs-american-tragedy-the-self-destructive-last-months-of-the-zappos-visionary/?sh=1071631e4f22 https://www.forbes.com/sites/angelauyeung/2020/12/04/tony-hs...

colmvp 6y ago

Within minutes of his death breaking the news, someone in the comment posted on HN about this enablement. I had skepticism but it also felt way too specific and out of nowhere for me to think they were lying. It was heartbreaking to eventually realize it was indeed the truth.

neonate 6y ago
Do you mean https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=exzappos https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=exzappos?
- colmvp 6y ago
  Yup, precisely.
reaperducer 6y ago
It's what I call the Michael Jackson Effect. Someone surrounds themselves with people who are financially dependent on them, so they only tell them that they're great, and whatever they do is the best thing that has ever happened. The unchecked praise-money feedback loop eventually leads to the host's destruction. See also: Silicon Valley.

Drblessing 6y ago

This is a tragedy and I sympathize with everyone involved. Also, a lesson to not surround yourself with sycophants and drugs. It's easy to blame the sycophants, but Mr. Hsieh would have replaced anyone who tried to help. Imagine you're around and care about him. Is it better to stick around and try to help, as they attempted with the wellness center and doctor, or just leave him to the wolves?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

datavirtue 6y ago

Is there a non-paywall version anywhere?

veeti 6y ago
https://archive.is/I4O0E https://archive.is/I4O0E

magneticnorth 6y ago

I appreciate the more nuanced view of the way his entourage both enabled and tried to help him. Earlier coverage (that I saw) just focused on the fact that all his friends were on his payroll and were forbidden from trying to get him to rehab or an intervention. But it sounds like many were trying to help in ways they could come up with that Tony would tolerate - hiring the doctor, for example. And it sounds like his family had started considering a conservatorship, as well. I'm glad to have the impression that he wasn't surrounded only by sycophants - it sounds like he was a fundamentally good person trying to do good in the world, and it's a more positive thought that many of his friends were trying to meet him where he was and get him back on track, rather than only enabling his downward spiral - though certainly it sounds like there was plenty of that, too.

hangonhn 6y ago
A teacher of mine once told us that "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." I think that's one of the paradoxes of life and we see this over and over again where a lot of good people try to do the right thing but the collective effects of their efforts end up being net negative. Rather than conspiracies, I think this paradox can explain some of the challenges we face today. Barbara Tuchman wrote a great book called "The March of Folly" that basically documents some famous cases of people unwittingly working against their own best interest, even if the individual steps themselves might have made sense.

goat_whisperer 6y ago

Anyone else get a sense that something similar is happening with Elon Musk? Guy seems to be unraveling

datavirtue 6y ago
Yeah, obvious for some time now. His wife looks ematiated and his kid is named with hieroglyphic symbols or some shit. This on top of the weird tweets and eccentric displays. He reminds me of a high functioning addict. Met quite a few business owner addicts in my time.

d3ntb3ev1l 6y ago

Billionaire dies partying. Fucks given: zero

dang 6y ago
You may not owe billionaires better, but you owe this community considerably better if you're participating in it. Please review the rules and stick to them from now on: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

neonate 6y ago

https://archive.is/I4O0E https://archive.is/I4O0E

s5300 6y ago

The sticky notes of meaningless delusions/motivational words younger grade schoolers may be urged to think and write about how they feel of them seem oddly reminiscent of pictures surrounding Kanye West in recent years. For quite some time, and still, I believe he's going to end up at the center of the next cult shootout we see in the US. I was lucky to have met Tony twice, having a decent discussion one time. What happened is really unfortunate, and I feel as if we're going to see very similar situations unfold with many of those who are new money making a fortune from tech. I imagine it's got to be unfathomably hard to stay grounded and find meaning after acquiring so much money. All the syncophants in the world will come after you, and as it's been seen with Musk, many others will attempt to bet against any future endeavors of yours just to make a quick buck.

viklove 6y ago

Whip-its? This guy had $840M and his drug of choice was whip-its? That is strangely amusing...

ng12 6y ago
Whip-its have become pretty popular among the burning man crowd. I remember seeing piles in East Palo Alto parking lots and wondering if they were from bored kids or bored techies.
- waterfowl 6y ago
  maybe the implication is that it is surprising he would be cracking whipped cream chargers vs. using his billionaire concierge connections to get a tank(crooked dentist, whatever). Would look classier than 10000 little chargers in piles -- nitrous addicts can consume a staggering quantity of little pods, basically back to back constantly every 15 seconds for hours. It is reportedly very 'moreish', as the brits would say.
  - AlanYx 6y ago
    Previous articles about his death mentioned that he also had portable nitrous tanks that he'd use on walks outdoors in Park City and in other situations where he couldn't go through individual whip-its. His being tethered to the tank was one of the things that motivated Jewel to write the letter.
- datavirtue 6y ago
  They are very expensive and have pretty heavy effects. Not sustainable. I couldn't really do that many because of the impact. Hard to imagine what his knock on effects were. Well...

jamesgreenleaf 6y ago

One simple and obvious lesson to point out here is that you better make peace with yourself before coming into possession of any large sum. Money can destroy you just as easily as it can empower you. Look at what happens to a significant percentage of lottery winners. It's an amplifier, and it can amplify your problems and self-destructive tendencies along with your desire to do good.

Barrin92 6y ago
Young athletes seems to be another really big case of this. Lots of people with short careers but huge earnings who either cannot handle the money or hand their finances over to people who try to take advantage of them.
datavirtue 6y ago
I've seen quite a few people go out like this. Back in the late 1990's I founded a head shop that later gave birth to multiple locations and had family members and friends getting rich. Lost two family members (dead), can't speak to another one (my father), I ended up arrested as a consequence of my brother's withdrawal symptoms, a business partner went off the deep end smoking crack and meth while leading an entourage of prostitutes and flipping a vehicle or two while ditching his family of twenty years, and my father was doing nearly the same shit while secreting hookers at his elderly mother's house. He ended up in jail on serious drug charges. This isn't even about half the shit that went down. So yeah, success and money can really trash lives if people aren't ready or they have underlying issues, but a lot of times you don't see it coming. Before that we ran a fairly uneventful chain of video rental stores and otherwise led a bog normal and happy middle class life.
- avrionov 6y ago
  What is a head shop?
  - pasttense01 6y ago
    "A head shop is a retail outlet specializing in paraphernalia used for consumption of cannabis and tobacco and items related to cannabis culture and related countercultures." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_shop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_shop

jzellis 6y ago

I worked for one of the startups Tony funded in Vegas and was around for most of the Downtown Project stuff, and was also one of the most vocal critics of what happened there. This story covers just the tip of the iceberg. I'm really sorry he died, even though I was horrified by the externalities of what he did in my town and, frankly, didn't much like the cat personally. But this idea that all of this started when he went to Park City is just not true. The culture of heavy boozing and drugs was very much always a big factor in the Vegas downtown tech scene. I don't think that statement would be considered controversial by anyone who was around for the real surge of it, from about 2010 - 2014 or so. And look, I'm not a Puritan or an abstainer, but it's hard to take people seriously when most of the meetings seem to be done whole day drinking at the casino or by the pool in the Ogden condo. Whatever. It's all over with now. I didn't even know Tony had left town - he'd stopped really making the scene outside his trailer park long before that. I wish he'd had people who could help him, but he spent a long time being told that he was an instinctual visionary whose every act was an act of genius. That isn't very good for honest self-evaluation. I wish everything had happened differently, but it didn't. It's a shame.

sadgrip 6y ago
Hey I'm from Vegas as well and I have a friend getting his MFA working on a story on the Downtown Project and it seems like he's coming to a lot of the conclusions you've come to. If it's possible I'd love to get you in touch with him to talk about your experience a bit.
devinegan 6y ago
I was a founder of a VTF (downtown project VC) funded company. We had an exit. I can’t vouch for the rest of the companies but hard drinking wasn’t part of our culture. Careful painting all of us with that brush. I was around for the first Vegas Jelly, and was funded in 2012 so I would be part of the “surge” you defined.

Animats 6y ago

In the end, he's just another dead junkie. At least he didn't take anyone else with him.

lenitabinol 6y ago
What's the point in disparaging the dead.
- Animats 6y ago
  To discourage adoration and emulation.
ksm1717 6y ago
Congrats! Pure evil take!

lookalike74 6y ago

When a random addict dies everyone knows whose fault it is. But when a rich addict dies, everyone wants to know whose fault it is. Sure.

stickfigure 6y ago
That's unnecessarily cynical. Tony Hsieh was not just some random rich guy, particularly not to this community.

throwaway5752 6y ago

With all due respect (and not saying these groups have overlap) there is a notable presence of people on Hacker News that minimize the danger of or encourage drug experimentation, if not regular drug use. Tony Hsieh is ultimately responsible for his choices that led to his tragic and early death. But it leaves a bad taste to see people calling out his entourage here and then other people advocating similar behavior in other submissions.

sneak 6y ago
> With all due respect (and not saying these groups have overlap) there is a notable presence of people on Hacker News that minimize the danger of or encourage drug experimentation, if not regular drug use. I think a better way of describing it is a continuum of belief around drugs. Most people aren't talking about caffeine or alcohol when they say "drug use" but those are indeed psychoactive drugs as well. "All drugs are wrong, but some are useful." is perhaps a useful model for thinking about it? (Not that I think drugs are wrong, just that nothing, and I mean nothing, in life is without cost in a cost/benefit analysis.) All substances we ingest, from distilled water, to table salt, to a cup of coffee, broccoli, a beer, a cheeseburger, morphine, or methamphetamine have various effects, long term and short, on our bodies, and we should understand those effects as best we can before we ingest any of them. I've seen ketamine save people's lives, and I've seen it destroy people's lives. Same with firearms. Sharp tools are a good thing, on balance, in my opinion, but should be wielded with knowledge and understanding in order to be safe.
- webmaven 6y ago
  > All substances we ingest, from distilled water, to table salt, to a cup of coffee, broccoli, a beer, a cheeseburger, morphine, or methamphetamine have various effects, long term and short, on our bodies, and we should understand those effects as best we can before we ingest any of them. Don't forget sugar: https://www.webmd.com/diabetes/features/how-sugar-affects-your-body https://www.webmd.com/diabetes/features/how-sugar-affects-yo...
kgin 6y ago
Are there really posts advocating similar behavior to this story? I think I've missed those.

okareaman 6y ago

Reminder: Nitrous can be highly addictive: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25327689 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25327689