5 ms·

You are seriously conflating "social anxiety disorder" and "introversion." The idea that a concert would "drain you so much it will be hard to enjoy" or that an

by yelsgib 15y ago

You are seriously conflating "social anxiety disorder" and "introversion." The idea that a concert would "drain you so much it will be hard to enjoy" or that an introvert would have a tough time interacting with a group long enough to go on a rock climbing trip is essentially saying that an introverted person is somehow handicapped, or pushed to their introversion by a type of mental disorder. I identify as an introvert. I like thinking about mind, experience, truth, math, language, etc. I don't have a social anxiety disorder or any other type of anxiety disorder, so I'm not afraid to join a rock climbing group or any other type of group. I go dancing. I make small talk. These things can be introverted activities, if you make them. My M.O. with respect to social situations seems to be "create comfort zone -> expand comfort zone." Since I'm an introvert, I tend to bring people into my world rather than go into theirs. That being said, I vastly prefer spending time with one person whom I really like to a bunch of people who I vaguely like. I also hate carnivals.

measure2xcut1x 15y ago
Word.
dkarl 15y ago
You are seriously conflating "social anxiety disorder" and "introversion." The idea that a concert would "drain you so much it will be hard to enjoy" or that an introvert would have a tough time interacting with a group long enough to go on a rock climbing trip is essentially saying that an introverted person is somehow handicapped, or pushed to their introversion by a type of mental disorder. Yep, that's exactly my point. The label has been embraced as a way to put a positive spin on social anxiety. I don't necessarily think it's a good way to use the word, but on the other hand, I'm not sure it's accurate to call someone like you who is able to enjoy himself and interact fluently with groups of people an "introvert." The traditional use of the word seems more in line with the idea of an introvert as someone who has an aversion to social interaction rather than a simple preference for other uses of time. Naturally people tend to rationalize, so it's hard to tell. By the way, I think it's healthy and not entirely unjustified to put a positive spin on social anxiety. Most of my abilities and good qualities come from the time I've spent alone. I just don't think it's sustainable to be in complete denial about it.
- andywood 15y ago
  You're still doing it. Introversion is not social anxiety. I am categorically an introvert. I do not suffer in the slightest from social anxiety - I'm perfectly comfortable in crowds and most social situations. What you're doing in this comment and the one above is simply displaying ignorance of what introversion means. And just because most laypeople have an inaccurate idea of what the word "introverted" means does not mean that it doesn't have a fairly well-defined technical meaning.
  - dkarl 15y ago
    I'm not ignorant of what you think introversion is. I learned it reading your first comment. Like I said elsewhere, the argument here is about what the word actually means. Jung says introverts experience emotional drain when they're around other people, so by his definition, if you are comfortable being around large groups of people for any length of time, then you are not an introvert. Instead of just insisting that I accept your definition of the word, try persuading me.
    - andywood 15y ago
      It isn't my definition. There's a fairly coherent consensus view of the salient points of the intro/extra dichotomy. You're distorting it. For example, the first half of your sentence beginning "Jung" is correct, but the second half is gross exaggeration. Other people aren't Kryptonite. That's what's wrong with your top post as well - it's full of exaggeration which misrepresents introversion. There's been plenty written on the topic, including the linked article, which you seem to reject.
      - dkarl 15y ago
        There's a fairly coherent consensus view of the salient points of the intro/extra dichotomy Not at all. First of all, introversion was a concept long before psychologists started to get technical with it. Second, its appeal as a psychological concept is mostly to laymen like us, and it certainly isn't used in any technical sense when people write blog posts about how great introverts are. So even without citing any disagreements among psychologists, there's a question of whether we should go with a some psychologist's technical meaning or the meaning in popular usage. In popular usage, you can see disagreement here on this page. One way to see how a word is used is Google: http://philosophy.lander.edu/ethics/jung.html http://philosophy.lander.edu/ethics/jung.html: "Weakness of the introverted attitude includes ... (1) a lack confidence in relation to people and things and (2) a tendency to be unsociable, shy, and hesitant." Don't worry, his list of weaknesses for extraversion is bigger ;-) http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/genpsytraits.html http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/genpsytraits.html: "The more obvious aspects of introversion are shyness, a distaste for social functions, and a love of privacy." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion: "Introversion does not describe social discomfort but rather social preference: an introvert may not be shy but may merely prefer less social activities." Good ol' Wikipedia, the voice of the people ;-) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/introvert http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/introvert: "1. a shy person. 2. Psychology . a person characterized by concern primarily with his or her own thoughts and feelings ( opposed to extrovert)." Funny how dictionaries list multiple definitions for words. Clearly they're all wrong except one! Here's a nice quote from Jung himself about the "extreme" introvert (gathered from this page: http://www.infj.com/INFJ_Introversion.htm http://www.infj.com/INFJ_Introversion.htm): "In a large gathering he feels lonely and lost. The more crowded it is, the greater becomes his resistance. He is not in the least 'with it,' and has no love of enthusiastic get-togethers. He is not a good mixer. What he does, he does in his own way, barricading himself against influences from outside. . . . Under normal conditions he is pessimistic and worried, because the world and human beings are not in the least good but crush him. . . ." Wow, that's a downer. You'll find more ammunition for yourself than for me on that page, though, as apparently psychologists have tried to empirically distinguish shyness, introversion, neuroticism, embarrassability, public shyness, private shyness, and sociability. Naturally in order to fit all those in as distinct concepts they've had to define them quite narrowly as aspects of personality instead of sticking to the broader idea of introversion as a "type." However, on that page the immediate followup to the Jung quote I quoted (not by Jung, and possibly not referring to his views) is this: "In less extreme cases, introverts are simply more conservative than not, preferring the familiar surroundings of home and intimate times with a few close friends; they husband their energy and would rather stay put than go from place to place." I think that characterization would be contested as well. So no, there is no coherent consensus. You can see all over this page as well that many of the arguments made here take the same form: accept my definition of "introvert", and my conclusions follow naturally. So the real argument is about the meaning of the word. There's been plenty written on the topic, including the linked article, which you seem to reject. I may be missing a better link elsewhere on the page, but the only "article" I see is one person's biased top-ten list inspired by a self-help book. You'll see a big difference between the Google results for introversion and the results for extro- or extraversion. There's a whole lot of boosterism and self-help content for introversion, but not for extroversion. I like some of it, but honestly, I think most of it can be ignored. We should know when we're being pandered to.
Goladus 15y ago
> I identify as an introvert. But are you an introvert? There's a difference between self-identification and scientific observation.
- Arjuna 15y ago
  "But are you an introvert?" Self-assessment (PDF): http://hiddengiftsoftheintrovertedchild.com/SelfAssessment.pdf http://hiddengiftsoftheintrovertedchild.com/SelfAssessment.p...
gaius 15y ago
You are seriously conflating "social anxiety disorder" and "introversion." This is actually LOL because when Jung coined the terms, he meant them to refer to ones relationship with the outside world. A person who explores the world alone is an extrovert, because he looks at the world outside himself. A person who is always surrounded by friends but always worries what they think is an introvert; he's looking inwards.
- dkarl 15y ago
  Jung didn't coin the word "introvert;" it's much older than that. He coined "extravert" as its opposite. Also, one of the ways Jung defined introversion and extraversion was in terms of the flow of "psychic energy": an introvert is someone whose energy is sapped by being around other people.
  - chmike 15y ago
    I didn't know there was a name for what I experienced. Energy drain. This is exactly how I feel it. There is no anxiety involved in it, at least not conscously. I sometime assumed it was like a very mild form of autism with the associated intelliegence excess in some domains. All the neurones we didn't waste on social processing are used in other competence.

by yelsgib 15y ago

measure2xcut1x 15y ago

Word.

dkarl 15y ago

You are seriously conflating "social anxiety disorder" and "introversion." The idea that a concert would "drain you so much it will be hard to enjoy" or that an introvert would have a tough time interacting with a group long enough to go on a rock climbing trip is essentially saying that an introverted person is somehow handicapped, or pushed to their introversion by a type of mental disorder. Yep, that's exactly my point. The label has been embraced as a way to put a positive spin on social anxiety. I don't necessarily think it's a good way to use the word, but on the other hand, I'm not sure it's accurate to call someone like you who is able to enjoy himself and interact fluently with groups of people an "introvert." The traditional use of the word seems more in line with the idea of an introvert as someone who has an aversion to social interaction rather than a simple preference for other uses of time. Naturally people tend to rationalize, so it's hard to tell. By the way, I think it's healthy and not entirely unjustified to put a positive spin on social anxiety. Most of my abilities and good qualities come from the time I've spent alone. I just don't think it's sustainable to be in complete denial about it.

andywood 15y ago
You're still doing it. Introversion is not social anxiety. I am categorically an introvert. I do not suffer in the slightest from social anxiety - I'm perfectly comfortable in crowds and most social situations. What you're doing in this comment and the one above is simply displaying ignorance of what introversion means. And just because most laypeople have an inaccurate idea of what the word "introverted" means does not mean that it doesn't have a fairly well-defined technical meaning.
- dkarl 15y ago
  I'm not ignorant of what you think introversion is. I learned it reading your first comment. Like I said elsewhere, the argument here is about what the word actually means. Jung says introverts experience emotional drain when they're around other people, so by his definition, if you are comfortable being around large groups of people for any length of time, then you are not an introvert. Instead of just insisting that I accept your definition of the word, try persuading me.
  - andywood 15y ago
    It isn't my definition. There's a fairly coherent consensus view of the salient points of the intro/extra dichotomy. You're distorting it. For example, the first half of your sentence beginning "Jung" is correct, but the second half is gross exaggeration. Other people aren't Kryptonite. That's what's wrong with your top post as well - it's full of exaggeration which misrepresents introversion. There's been plenty written on the topic, including the linked article, which you seem to reject.
    - dkarl 15y ago
      There's a fairly coherent consensus view of the salient points of the intro/extra dichotomy Not at all. First of all, introversion was a concept long before psychologists started to get technical with it. Second, its appeal as a psychological concept is mostly to laymen like us, and it certainly isn't used in any technical sense when people write blog posts about how great introverts are. So even without citing any disagreements among psychologists, there's a question of whether we should go with a some psychologist's technical meaning or the meaning in popular usage. In popular usage, you can see disagreement here on this page. One way to see how a word is used is Google: http://philosophy.lander.edu/ethics/jung.html http://philosophy.lander.edu/ethics/jung.html: "Weakness of the introverted attitude includes ... (1) a lack confidence in relation to people and things and (2) a tendency to be unsociable, shy, and hesitant." Don't worry, his list of weaknesses for extraversion is bigger ;-) http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/genpsytraits.html http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/genpsytraits.html: "The more obvious aspects of introversion are shyness, a distaste for social functions, and a love of privacy." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion: "Introversion does not describe social discomfort but rather social preference: an introvert may not be shy but may merely prefer less social activities." Good ol' Wikipedia, the voice of the people ;-) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/introvert http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/introvert: "1. a shy person. 2. Psychology . a person characterized by concern primarily with his or her own thoughts and feelings ( opposed to extrovert)." Funny how dictionaries list multiple definitions for words. Clearly they're all wrong except one! Here's a nice quote from Jung himself about the "extreme" introvert (gathered from this page: http://www.infj.com/INFJ_Introversion.htm http://www.infj.com/INFJ_Introversion.htm): "In a large gathering he feels lonely and lost. The more crowded it is, the greater becomes his resistance. He is not in the least 'with it,' and has no love of enthusiastic get-togethers. He is not a good mixer. What he does, he does in his own way, barricading himself against influences from outside. . . . Under normal conditions he is pessimistic and worried, because the world and human beings are not in the least good but crush him. . . ." Wow, that's a downer. You'll find more ammunition for yourself than for me on that page, though, as apparently psychologists have tried to empirically distinguish shyness, introversion, neuroticism, embarrassability, public shyness, private shyness, and sociability. Naturally in order to fit all those in as distinct concepts they've had to define them quite narrowly as aspects of personality instead of sticking to the broader idea of introversion as a "type." However, on that page the immediate followup to the Jung quote I quoted (not by Jung, and possibly not referring to his views) is this: "In less extreme cases, introverts are simply more conservative than not, preferring the familiar surroundings of home and intimate times with a few close friends; they husband their energy and would rather stay put than go from place to place." I think that characterization would be contested as well. So no, there is no coherent consensus. You can see all over this page as well that many of the arguments made here take the same form: accept my definition of "introvert", and my conclusions follow naturally. So the real argument is about the meaning of the word. There's been plenty written on the topic, including the linked article, which you seem to reject. I may be missing a better link elsewhere on the page, but the only "article" I see is one person's biased top-ten list inspired by a self-help book. You'll see a big difference between the Google results for introversion and the results for extro- or extraversion. There's a whole lot of boosterism and self-help content for introversion, but not for extroversion. I like some of it, but honestly, I think most of it can be ignored. We should know when we're being pandered to.

Goladus 15y ago

> I identify as an introvert. But are you an introvert? There's a difference between self-identification and scientific observation.

Arjuna 15y ago
"But are you an introvert?" Self-assessment (PDF): http://hiddengiftsoftheintrovertedchild.com/SelfAssessment.pdf http://hiddengiftsoftheintrovertedchild.com/SelfAssessment.p...

gaius 15y ago

You are seriously conflating "social anxiety disorder" and "introversion." This is actually LOL because when Jung coined the terms, he meant them to refer to ones relationship with the outside world. A person who explores the world alone is an extrovert, because he looks at the world outside himself. A person who is always surrounded by friends but always worries what they think is an introvert; he's looking inwards.

dkarl 15y ago
Jung didn't coin the word "introvert;" it's much older than that. He coined "extravert" as its opposite. Also, one of the ways Jung defined introversion and extraversion was in terms of the flow of "psychic energy": an introvert is someone whose energy is sapped by being around other people.
- chmike 15y ago
  I didn't know there was a name for what I experienced. Energy drain. This is exactly how I feel it. There is no anxiety involved in it, at least not conscously. I sometime assumed it was like a very mild form of autism with the associated intelliegence excess in some domains. All the neurones we didn't waste on social processing are used in other competence.