7 ms·

Yes, this is the point. For example, I want a phone where I can send faked GPS data to apps that request GPS permissions (and so on).

hellisothers 6y ago
As a developer I don’t want people sending my app spoofed data.
- abraae 6y ago
  As a user I want a way to bypass your overly intrusive data collection on me.
- hulahoof 6y ago
  Agreed, but as a user I do want this option and so the parent post point stands - the device should be on the owners side, not the app developers.
- belval 6y ago
  I am the one paying for the phone so I should get to pick what information it will tell you.
- rnotaro 6y ago
  As a user you're not entitled to the GPS Data of my phone and i'm allowed to send any data that I want to.
- polishdude20 6y ago
  It's not your app anymore. The user has bought it remember?
- andolanra 6y ago
  Well then, you should make sure that you're providing a useful service with that data, or allow data collection to be turned off. Think of it like this: if I'm actively using an app that's giving me turn-by-turn directions, then of course I'm not going to want to spoof GPS, since it would make the app useless to me. But if your app demands GPS data just for ad analytics, then yes, I would absolutely and without any remorse spoof GPS data for that app. In that latter case, I don't care that a developer might be unhappy with it, because as a user I'm unhappy that the developer is slurping up data they don't need!
  - duxup 6y ago
    What about games like say Pokemon Go where accurate location data is part of the game and spoofing is a problem that can impact other user's?
    - vincnetas 6y ago
      Good question. I still think that its up to user to decide what data he shares with app. If its crucial for app to know that gps position is not faked, app could do some heuristic. Check if user is not moving faster than some limit, does not stop moving for extended periods of time etc. Basically anticheat engine. Only area where this whould be relevant i think is online multiplayer games. Otherwise, if user is faking gps he is messing up his own experience.
      - duxup 6y ago
        >Only area where this whould be relevant i think is online multiplayer games. That's the issue with augmented reality games like Pokemon Go.
        chii 6y ago
        i argue it's not an issue. If the user decides to spoof to cheat in the game, there are other ways to detect it (such as speed limiting - which, as i understand, pokemon go already does). If the app wants to force a user to not modify their phone just so they have a secure enclave for which they can implement DRM, then i can't agree to it. This includes things like spoofing, but also things like memory edits or hacking save files, or anything else client side. If the app needs secure storage that's unchangeable, they can save it on their servers.
        duxup 6y ago
        Spoofing is an issue even if you limit yourself to a reasonable speed. You don't have to spoof yourself everywhere all at once.
      - 6y ago
- matheusmoreira 6y ago
  As a user I don't really care about what you want or need. You're not supposed to get any data at all unless it's strictly necessary. You're also supposed to delete any data that you do get after you're done using it in a way that benefits me and me alone.
- whateveracct 6y ago
  too bad!
- stirfish 6y ago
  Why not? As a developer, I can't think of any downsides.
- theodric 6y ago
  As a user I say "too bad, I paid for the app, I do what I want with it"
- jjav 6y ago
  I'm a developer too, but no, sorry, the user comes first. They're paying the bills and your salary. If your app needs to get info that benefits the user (as the mapping app GPS example), nobody will deny it because it makes sense. If your app wants to get info that benefits you but not the user, it only makes sense for that data to be denied (preferably) or faked (as a backup plan). You have no right to it.
  - jcelerier 6y ago
    > They're paying the bills and your salary That's the whole issue - it's not the case anymorez now it's the ads that pay
rjzzleep 6y ago
Android had plenty tools in the past to allow that. Xprivacy even used to allow you to select which Contacts you want to allow for which app. So you could use WhatsApp but only allow a handful of contacts to be read. One of the frustrations people have with Google is that they're making it increasingly closed and problematic to make modifications. Given that nowadays some banks for example are mobile only and everyone is waiting for Google to completely shut down modified boot systems(probably in response to Qualcomm TrustZone being untrustworthy), people are re evaluating whether it makes sense to invest in the Android ecosystem. EDIT: google could have capitalized on this and made it a part of their offering.
- inquirerGeneral 6y ago
  That's because you're trying to use apps that use the services of Google. Pixel phones are still the best to use to wipe and put other operating systems on
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  Apps can detect when you're mocking GPS on Android.
fn1 6y ago
That is because of Androids stupid permissions-system where you have to give all requested permissions to an app before being able to install it. On iOS the app installs and works and THEN it might ask you for GPS permission and you can deny that and the app keeps working, just without the feature that needs GPS. I just installed Mi Home, a chinese app which requested every permission there is. I just denied all of them, could still use the app and am 0 afraid that the app somehow accessed my data.
- dreamer7 6y ago
  Just to clarify, Android has had the ability to request permissions ad hoc in the user journey since Android 6.0. But it is true that Android won't reject apps that refuse to work without a permission while iOS mandates that basic functionalities of an app work even when permission is denied.
- yarcob 6y ago
  > you can deny that and the app keeps working, just without the feature that needs GPS A phone that would truly value the user would allow the user to provide a fake GPS location. Then you could use features that need GPS and not give up your privacy. But Apple doesn't allow that since it would make the phone less useful for companies who want to use phones for tracking. A phone that truly valued the user would allow users to install multiple copies of an app, and allow the user to log in with different accounts. But Apple doesn't allow that, because they don't want people to share devices.
  - cletus 6y ago
    Yeah, your GPS example doesn’t hold up. How is denying an app location info consistent with your position that Apple wanting to enable companies to track users? So you, I suspect, don’t want to “avoid tracking” so much as you want to avoid geo-gating of apps and content. Content distributors rely on such features to satisfy legal obligations about what content they can show where. If the OS started adding features like “pretend I’m in location X” or “download movie regardless of app restrictions” (as an example of another feature that could be argued is pro-user) then at some point you’ll have a platform that isn’t commercially supported or viable. Honestly, Apple is by far the most pro-user company in this field and there are countless examples of this. But a very small minority chafe against the restrictions that are actually in most users interests (eg not allowing side loading of apps, which for most people would simply be an attack vector).
a0-prw 6y ago
On Android phones, if you enable "developer" in settings, the app "fake GPS settings" can do that. Caveat: It's been almost 4 or 5 years since I used it. I used to prank colleagues on Facebook by posting from a local prison or other weird places. Have had no use for it since I deleted my fb account. So I don't know if it can still do what you want.
- matkoniecz 6y ago
  You are unable to do it for specific apps, it is a global setting.
  - eqvinox 6y ago
    Also I think the apps can check for this. It's also been several years for me but I remember using an external Bluetooth GPS receiver needed this setting to allow an app to read the BT data and feed it into Android & some Apps just refused to work.

hellisothers 6y ago

As a developer I don’t want people sending my app spoofed data.

abraae 6y ago
As a user I want a way to bypass your overly intrusive data collection on me.
hulahoof 6y ago
Agreed, but as a user I do want this option and so the parent post point stands - the device should be on the owners side, not the app developers.
belval 6y ago
I am the one paying for the phone so I should get to pick what information it will tell you.
rnotaro 6y ago
As a user you're not entitled to the GPS Data of my phone and i'm allowed to send any data that I want to.
polishdude20 6y ago
It's not your app anymore. The user has bought it remember?
andolanra 6y ago
Well then, you should make sure that you're providing a useful service with that data, or allow data collection to be turned off. Think of it like this: if I'm actively using an app that's giving me turn-by-turn directions, then of course I'm not going to want to spoof GPS, since it would make the app useless to me. But if your app demands GPS data just for ad analytics, then yes, I would absolutely and without any remorse spoof GPS data for that app. In that latter case, I don't care that a developer might be unhappy with it, because as a user I'm unhappy that the developer is slurping up data they don't need!
- duxup 6y ago
  What about games like say Pokemon Go where accurate location data is part of the game and spoofing is a problem that can impact other user's?
  - vincnetas 6y ago
    Good question. I still think that its up to user to decide what data he shares with app. If its crucial for app to know that gps position is not faked, app could do some heuristic. Check if user is not moving faster than some limit, does not stop moving for extended periods of time etc. Basically anticheat engine. Only area where this whould be relevant i think is online multiplayer games. Otherwise, if user is faking gps he is messing up his own experience.
    - duxup 6y ago
      >Only area where this whould be relevant i think is online multiplayer games. That's the issue with augmented reality games like Pokemon Go.
      - chii 6y ago
        i argue it's not an issue. If the user decides to spoof to cheat in the game, there are other ways to detect it (such as speed limiting - which, as i understand, pokemon go already does). If the app wants to force a user to not modify their phone just so they have a secure enclave for which they can implement DRM, then i can't agree to it. This includes things like spoofing, but also things like memory edits or hacking save files, or anything else client side. If the app needs secure storage that's unchangeable, they can save it on their servers.
        duxup 6y ago
        Spoofing is an issue even if you limit yourself to a reasonable speed. You don't have to spoof yourself everywhere all at once.
    - 6y ago
matheusmoreira 6y ago
As a user I don't really care about what you want or need. You're not supposed to get any data at all unless it's strictly necessary. You're also supposed to delete any data that you do get after you're done using it in a way that benefits me and me alone.
whateveracct 6y ago
too bad!
stirfish 6y ago
Why not? As a developer, I can't think of any downsides.
theodric 6y ago
As a user I say "too bad, I paid for the app, I do what I want with it"
jjav 6y ago
I'm a developer too, but no, sorry, the user comes first. They're paying the bills and your salary. If your app needs to get info that benefits the user (as the mapping app GPS example), nobody will deny it because it makes sense. If your app wants to get info that benefits you but not the user, it only makes sense for that data to be denied (preferably) or faked (as a backup plan). You have no right to it.
- jcelerier 6y ago
  > They're paying the bills and your salary That's the whole issue - it's not the case anymorez now it's the ads that pay

rjzzleep 6y ago

Android had plenty tools in the past to allow that. Xprivacy even used to allow you to select which Contacts you want to allow for which app. So you could use WhatsApp but only allow a handful of contacts to be read. One of the frustrations people have with Google is that they're making it increasingly closed and problematic to make modifications. Given that nowadays some banks for example are mobile only and everyone is waiting for Google to completely shut down modified boot systems(probably in response to Qualcomm TrustZone being untrustworthy), people are re evaluating whether it makes sense to invest in the Android ecosystem. EDIT: google could have capitalized on this and made it a part of their offering.

inquirerGeneral 6y ago
That's because you're trying to use apps that use the services of Google. Pixel phones are still the best to use to wipe and put other operating systems on
heavyset_go 6y ago
Apps can detect when you're mocking GPS on Android.

fn1 6y ago

That is because of Androids stupid permissions-system where you have to give all requested permissions to an app before being able to install it. On iOS the app installs and works and THEN it might ask you for GPS permission and you can deny that and the app keeps working, just without the feature that needs GPS. I just installed Mi Home, a chinese app which requested every permission there is. I just denied all of them, could still use the app and am 0 afraid that the app somehow accessed my data.

dreamer7 6y ago
Just to clarify, Android has had the ability to request permissions ad hoc in the user journey since Android 6.0. But it is true that Android won't reject apps that refuse to work without a permission while iOS mandates that basic functionalities of an app work even when permission is denied.
yarcob 6y ago
> you can deny that and the app keeps working, just without the feature that needs GPS A phone that would truly value the user would allow the user to provide a fake GPS location. Then you could use features that need GPS and not give up your privacy. But Apple doesn't allow that since it would make the phone less useful for companies who want to use phones for tracking. A phone that truly valued the user would allow users to install multiple copies of an app, and allow the user to log in with different accounts. But Apple doesn't allow that, because they don't want people to share devices.
- cletus 6y ago
  Yeah, your GPS example doesn’t hold up. How is denying an app location info consistent with your position that Apple wanting to enable companies to track users? So you, I suspect, don’t want to “avoid tracking” so much as you want to avoid geo-gating of apps and content. Content distributors rely on such features to satisfy legal obligations about what content they can show where. If the OS started adding features like “pretend I’m in location X” or “download movie regardless of app restrictions” (as an example of another feature that could be argued is pro-user) then at some point you’ll have a platform that isn’t commercially supported or viable. Honestly, Apple is by far the most pro-user company in this field and there are countless examples of this. But a very small minority chafe against the restrictions that are actually in most users interests (eg not allowing side loading of apps, which for most people would simply be an attack vector).

a0-prw 6y ago

On Android phones, if you enable "developer" in settings, the app "fake GPS settings" can do that. Caveat: It's been almost 4 or 5 years since I used it. I used to prank colleagues on Facebook by posting from a local prison or other weird places. Have had no use for it since I deleted my fb account. So I don't know if it can still do what you want.

matkoniecz 6y ago
You are unable to do it for specific apps, it is a global setting.
- eqvinox 6y ago
  Also I think the apps can check for this. It's also been several years for me but I remember using an external Bluetooth GPS receiver needed this setting to allow an app to read the BT data and feed it into Android & some Apps just refused to work.