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Early-Retirement Update

• christiansakai 6y ago
  Life is a like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.
  • croes 6y ago
    In Germany, the contents are written on the back of the box.
    • smnrchrds 6y ago
      If it's written in German, I still wouldn't know.
    • selimthegrim 6y ago
      What’s German for “You must be fun at parties?”
      • phaemon 6y ago
        Germans don't tend to use sarcasm, so that phrase doesn't exist.
• seibelj 6y ago
  I "retired" for a month, first two weeks I was so bored just exercising and consuming content, then got kind of depressed, and wound up making plans to start a new business. Then I took a new role at a startup and went back to the grind. I came to the conclusion I just can't stop working. If it isn't for a company then I'd probably start a non-profit and build a new thing that is more idealistic. My dad was the same way, after 6 months of being retired, smoking weed, and playing videogames he got a job at a golf course - free golf and shoots the shit with a lot of people. Work gives purpose in life, IMO.
  • xsmasher 6y ago
    I depend on work for income, but also get some social activity and a steady stream of "interesting-enough" problems to solve. If the need for income goes away I still need to replace the other two.
  • criddell 6y ago
    > I was so bored just exercising and consuming content Is that all you wanted to do? I'm pretty sure if I could afford to be retired it would be a long, long time before I got bored. Yes I would exercise more and catch up on TV and movies that I've missed over the years, but I also have a lot of hobbies that I would like to work on. There are local organizations I would like to volunteer for. There are lots of classes I would want to take or audit. I'd visit friends and family I haven't seen in years. I might even be like your dad and find a job that I enjoy doing. That's a whole different thing than working because you have to.
  • marcinzm 6y ago
    Same for me, I once left a job with nothing lined up and 5 years of living expenses in the bank. I went rather stir crazy although I lasted 6 months before needing to find something to work on. Would have been quicker but I had a bunch of friends with flexible schedules to hang out with. I like doing things and solving problems but generally lack enough self-drive to do so on my own except on sporadic projects. A day job give me a focus, external motivation and deadlines which I actually enjoy having.
  • bityard 6y ago
    I like the quote from the neighbor in Office Space, "You don't need money to do nothing man, look at my cousin. He's broke, an' don't do shit." I listen to a lot of FI podcasts and they acknowledge that the transition from $day_job to FI can be hard for a lot of people. They say the key thing is make sure you're retiring _to_ something rather than _from_ something. I'm about halfway to FI and simply cannot _wait_ to start spending most of time working on all the gajillion projects that interest me but (probably) won't make much money.
• jacquesm 6y ago
  TLDR: life can change in ways that mess with your expectations, therefore better be prepared. Also: FI on bare basics may seem like a great idea until (1) your spouse leaves you or (2) you get ill or (3) both. So sorry for seeing reality catch up with you, and nice to see you admit it.
• airhead969 6y ago
  I need to work again for about 10 years and then be FI.
• benjohnson 6y ago
  A very useful read because the author is brutally honest. For me, while financially independent, I must have something that gets me out of bed every day - give me too much open-ended time and I wither. I suspect that a lot of introspection is valuable in order to successfully navigate the withdrawal from typical society.
• dkarp 6y ago
  Short Version: - LeanFIRE in 2015 (~30Kish USD annual spend) - first couple years were great, in the third year cracks started to show - they and their partner's goals were no longer aligned and they ended up splitting - OP was diagnosed with a genetic condition that changed their expenses and lifestyle - Ended up getting a job again at the end, but while "retired" their net worth actually increased by 20%
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
• sidlls 6y ago
  I always get a kick out of people who think they’re financially independent with such a small stash. Outside some regions with relatively extreme living conditions (e.g. undeveloped and underdeveloped countries), the amount he retired with was never going to be enough to sustain even minor shocks and last the rest of his life. He had a minor shock (breakup) and a major shock (health condition) and realized this error early enough to have time to correct. Not everyone who follows the “leanFIRE” approach is they fortunate.
  • jacquesm 6y ago
    Especially not in the USA when the least of a health issue can eat up your savings in a couple of short months unless you have extremely good health coverage, which only the rich (who don't actually need it ...) have.
    • mypalmike 6y ago
      It's not perfect, but maximum annual out-of-pocket for an individual ACA plan is $8550, plus premiums. If that's your entire savings, you were certainly not FI.
      • leetcrew 6y ago
        I think the author is going to require expensive care on a yearly basis for the rest of their life. if you can't absorb $8550 one time, yeah you're definitely not FI. but if you end up maxing out your out-of-pocket every year until you die, that is really going to mess with a $30k/yr spending target.
        • kelnos 6y ago
          Right; an extra $8550 per year might not be hard to absorb if your budget (supported by a larger nest egg) is already $150k per year, but when it's $30k per year, that's a good 30% increase. Not small.
    • jdavis703 6y ago
• lobo_tuerto 6y ago
  FI == Financial Independence
• Trasmatta 6y ago
  This was a really refreshing and honest take on early retirement, especially among the FI blogosphere. > I looked at other FI bloggers who quit work and retired. They all appeared to be blissful. Stoic. Confident and without reservations. Since I ran into problems myself, I started to feel like I was defective. Like something was wrong with me and that’s why it didn’t work so well. Maybe it has to do with my personality (a nerdy introvert). Or it could be because I’m not trying to sell product and make money off of my choices, like almost everyone else who blogs about FI seems to. There always seemed like a potentially strange conflict of interest with many of the FI bloggers who are ostensibly "retired early", but still earn a significant amount of money from their FI blogs. Which isn't to say they shouldn't be earning that money, but it does bring up questions about some of the conclusions that they make. (There's also a bit of a groupthink or even cult-like mentality among some of them, particularly in the MMM sphere.)
  • jacquesm 6y ago
    But: he's still giving investment advice and he still doesn't realize just how lucky he got.
    • ajkjk 6y ago
      Sounded like he did, no?
    • psychiatrist24 6y ago
      You mean MMM or the author here? How do you know he "got lucky", since he doesn't mention how he got his nest egg? (Yes in a wider sense lucky to be born smart enough for a good job, in a country with good jobs and so on, but that applies to many people). Maybe he took those FI blogs seriously and dedicated himself to reaching that goal, and he did. And then people who never tried say "he got lucky".
      • labcomputer 6y ago
        > Maybe he took those FI blogs seriously and dedicated himself to reaching that goal, and he did. And then people who never tried say "he got lucky". My problem with most of the advice from FI and FIRE blogosphere is that it essentially boils down to "be the 1% (where you live) and live frugally". It's not wrong, per se, but it isn't actionable advice for 99% of the population[1]. In particular, while anyone could be MMM, not everyone can be MMM: There simply aren't enough people who read financial advice blogs to support a significant population of such bloggers living in rural LCOL-ville. Even if there were, someone has to stock the shelves at Walmart. Shelf-stockers simply don't earn enough to retire early, unless shelf-stocker wages rise to a level that makes blog-FIRE unsustainable. It's sort of like asking why everyone doesn't buy a rental and become landlord. Who rents the apartment then? Or do all the landlords rent apartments from each other? [1] Perhaps it isn't a 99/1 split. Maybe it's 90/10. But it sure isn't 50/50.
• ericmay 6y ago
  To me the emphasis on the FIRE community should be on the FI part of the equation. For many people in many countries, there is no concept of "retirement". It seems so silly to me that people would go and say "I'll work really hard and do all this stuff for 40 years so I can sit around and do nothing for another 30 years". What's the point? It's unsustainable. It's like doing a crash diet - it may work for a minute, but to have long-term results you need to have a lifestyle change. Focusing on financial independence means you can achieve better long-term results. Living within your means over the course of 80 years instead of balls-to-the-wall for 30-40 and then a quick and silent death for 30 seems to be a better course of action and would lead to longer lifespan. Once you reach financial independence - whatever that means to you - you can take on other interests. It could be working at a startup, or a non-profit, or volunteering, or gardening. You name it. But financial independence enables such things. FI > RE.
  • californical 6y ago
    Yes, this! Having enough money that you don’t need to worry too much about work seems like 95% of the benefit. Spoken as someone fairly early working towards FI. Having a paid off house, no debt, and enough money to survive tragedy unscathed is really the goal. I want to be able to work whatever job makes me happy without feeling the need to be competing for the highest salary. Take a few months off work here and there without sweating about getting a new job. To let my future wife or I stay home with the hypothetical kid without needing to think about the money.
    • kelnos 6y ago
      Ok, but just imagine for a moment that working a job doesn't make you happy. Consider that most employment arrangements aren't all that flexible. You can't just suddenly decide to disappear for two months because you feel like it, whenever you want, and expect there to be a job waiting for you when you get back. This extends all the way down into little things. Maybe I'd like to go for a walk right now, but I can't because I have a work meeting in 10 minutes. I doubt there is anyone in the world who can say they are 100% happy with their job 100% of the time. While you might not be 100% happy 100% of the time in retirement, that is something you can control and change. You generally can't change many of the things about a job that make you unhappy. I just feel like most people are so socially conditioned to believe that working a job is The Correct Way To Live Your Life that they simply can't imagine anything different. > I want to be able to work whatever job makes me happy without feeling the need to be competing for the highest salary. Why does it have to be a job? Why can't you just do things that make you happy? Why is it necessary that happiness falls into the narrow range of an employer-employee (or freelancer-client) relationship?
• mathgladiator 6y ago
  One of the things that struck me is that the need for new hardwood floors. I've been there, and I think this is a phase where you have to do something stupid with a lot of money to realize how stupid it is. For instance, I spent $7K on new quartz counter-tops, $5K on a new fireplace insert which I would rarely use, and then $70K on a bathroom that I never used. Now, I've come to the conclusion that perfect doesn't really exist and just to enjoy what you have. We went from home owners to renters. All the external things that money buys tend to not provide lasting happiness, and there you are stuck with yourself. We all die. I have a lot of thoughts on this piece as I'm in the FI camp, but not yet RE camp. The only reason I don't join RE right now is because I want to try to leverage my position to do something really big. However, I'll probably fail, and I'll retire and do my own thing.
  • horsawlarway 6y ago
    > All the external things that money buys tend to not provide lasting happiness, and there you are stuck with yourself. We all die. I think this varies. I've had my fair share of purchases that made no difference and I'd probably not repeat if given the opportunity. But I also have a good number of purchases that made a significant difference in the quality of my life. Honestly, I LOVE (love, love love) being a homeowner. Cheaper than rent and I can customize to my hearts content. Spent 40k on a porch 3 years ago, and I don't really have any regrets - We knew we wanted it, we knew it would make a lot of things easier (pet care, laundry, chest freezer access) and it's a great spot to just sit and enjoy myself. Plus, it's on a house I intend to own until I die - not because I plan to live here forever, but because I bought an affordable place where the numbers for renting it work with my mortgage. So for now, my wife and I will enjoy it, in 5 years we'll either still be enjoying it or it will be adding to the monthly rent the place can pull. We're in the middle of spending about 55k on a bathroom remodel with a similar expected return - We get to enjoy it now, and if we decide at some point it's not working for us or we're no longer happy here, it becomes revenue generating. The flip side of this was my car - I just didn't care at all about what I was driving as long as it could get me from point A to point B with minimal hassle. I have coworkers & family who don't understand why I'm still driving a crappy 94 mazda protege. Doesn't matter how many times I tell them I don't care. Similar for the lawn - I grew up in a nice neighborhood, and I got to see first hand exactly how expensive lawn care is and how little time most folks actually spent in their yard. Its like a nightmare of keeping up with the joneses - So we bought in a place with no HOA, and we ripped up most of the grass and have put in beds and paths in the front instead. Some of the neighbors judge us (or complain openly, to our faces) about how the yard looks, but fuck em. Its not their yard, and I'm not spending the time and money to make other folks happy. And really - I think that's the crux of the issue. If you're doing something because someone else might judge you if you don't, or because someone else did something similar and you want to show off too... then you're probably doing it for the wrong reasons.
• DoreenMichele 6y ago
  In the US at least, this would work very differently if we had better healthcare for our citizens. Sudden health expenses is one of the things that went wrong in his life that derailed his plans.
  • vkou 6y ago
    It really wouldn't. The biggest impact to his finances was not his health costs, it was the separation from his partner. It's a lot cheaper for two people to live together, than it is for two people to live apart. Either way, FIRE on a million dollars, even in a lower-COL state is... A bit optimistic, because of short-term market fluctuations having the potential to coincide with surprise expenses.
    • DoreenMichele 6y ago
      It's genetic and incurable and the author himself cites it as a factor (in his FIRE plan hitting a bump). Here is an article that readily turned up about the "overwhelming" expenses involved in the diagnosis listed in the article: I had a bit of an ugly meltdown last week, because I realized the medicine used to treat my tachycardia had quadrupled in price. Quadrupled. You know, because I had an extra $180 a month that I had been hoping to spend on medication. https://globalgenes.org/2017/02/08/my-life-with-ehlers-danlos-how-to-make-medical-expenses-less-overwhelming/ https://globalgenes.org/2017/02/08/my-life-with-ehlers-danlo...
• hintymad 6y ago
  My take-away is that what really matters is not financial independence (it's nonetheless really nice), but independence. And the real independence comes from continued ability to work, being able to choose the job that one enjoys, and the freedom of choosing how to spend one's time. Freedom of choosing how to spend one's time is probably the hardest to achieve.
  • xwdv 6y ago
    No, financial independence is what matters in a world where returns on capital will greatly outperform returns on labor.
    • jsdalton 6y ago
      Out of curiosity where are you finding high returns on capital today? I just don’t see them. (As an engineer, conversely, I see very high returns on my labor.)
      • hintymad 6y ago
        As an engineer, I see high capital gain from my labor by joining "blow-out" startups, as described by some article written by Wealthfront. Working for a blowing-out startup so far is the best choice for an engineer like me, who is not good at navigating dynamics of a large company nor good at investing nor interested in real estate as many fellow engineers are in Silicon Valley. I personally enjoy the following perks besides decent cash payment: - Problems come to me instead of me fighting with other teams for fun projects. - Abundant opportunities for career growth, be it tech leadership or managerial hierarchies. - Surprisingly high cumulated chance of getting meaningful equity, as long as you switch company quickly when you no longer enjoy your work. What do I have to do to get into such startups? Well, getting good at leetcode in the early years, and working hard to get a reputation so I don't have to do hard leetcode problems nowadays. I enjoy working on CS fundamentals and applying them, so working on leetcode is never an issue, and working hard is what engineers enjoy anyway.
        • 6y ago
• boplicity 6y ago
  In my early twenties, I had a business mostly on autopilot that let me work maybe an hour a day. I mostly spent my time writing poetry, hiking, making friends, etc. It was great. It was not sustainable, but it was perfect for a twenty something exploring the joys and freedoms of youth. Now, I work much harder, have kids, and responsibilities. That being said, I know the work I do is meaningful, and serves many people. We have significant savings. Though living in a big city means we can't retire early. That's beside the point though: I motivate myself to work because it is meaningful. The same with kids: I don't do things because I enjoy them, I do them in the service of my kids and my family. Reading the story in the OP, I get the sense that the OP hasn't made that transition to thinking about work in terms of serving others. A happy life is not a life of retirement, its a life of meaning. What was meaningful once (aiming for retirement), loses its meaning once it has been attained. You have to keep moving forward. This is not about "Keeping Up," but about stepping outside of oneself, and learning to put others ahead, even if it requires personal suffering. (Something parents of young children know very well.)
  • dominotw 6y ago
    > A happy life is not a life of retirement, its a life of meaning. What was meaningful once (aiming for retirement), loses its meaning once it has been attained. You have to keep moving forward. you figured out the meaning of life for everyone? maybe you are rationalizing your own lack of freedom from work and responsibility as "serving others" and secret to happiness. Which is fine but its a bit weird to say that applies to everyone and ppl who aren't doing have just not made that "transition" to a life of meaning. I am glad You figured out formula of happiness for your life don't you think everyone else has the same freedom to figure out their own path and formula. Why do you think everyone should follow your universal formula.
    • nx7487 6y ago
      If you have a different opinion, then you're probably not looking for advice. This guy is writing a comment for people that don't know what the purpose of life is exactly, and who are looking for other people's opinions.
    • 6y ago
• varispeed 6y ago
  This is something I cannot understand. Why would you want to retire so early? I think that would impact my mental health negatively. I just love to work and I couldn't care less about FI. I mean it's nice to have money, but this will sound cliche it will not buy you happiness. However, it is certainly better to cry in a luxury apartment than under a bridge to your dog.
  • neogodless 6y ago
    > something I cannot understand > I just love to work I think your own personal circumstances apply to you. Have you met any people who do not love to work? Also, understand that in Financial Independence, "independence" means having complete control over your decision-making. You can attain it, and then choose to work, or choose to vacation, or choose to read books, or choose to play video games, or choose to write a novel, or choose to take up some other creative endeavor, or choose to push your body to its limits - and you will not be constrained by the remainder of your hours left after your work day is over.
  • mypalmike 6y ago
    The blog explains that he does not love to work. At least not in the field that he is skilled in.
  • firedating 6y ago
    I think most often 'retiring' is not meant literally. In other words, one does not work at an ordinary job anymore, but they pursue other endeavors. They might even 'work' more after 'retiring'. It is true that FIRE does not buy happiness, but it is a nice tool if for example you like your hobby more than the current job.
    • varispeed 6y ago
      I am on a spectrum, so there you go... Thank you
  • leetcrew 6y ago
    the simple answer is that not everyone loves to work. personally I hate doing anything (including stuff I would otherwise enjoy) that has to be completed according to a schedule and evaluated by other people. but even if you do enjoy working, it's still great to be FI. you can choose the most interesting job and ignore the salary.
• Pandabob 6y ago
  He mentions MRIs costing 2-3k€ a pop. That seems really expensive. I’m guessing this is US? Doesn’t competition push down the price of these operations? We’ve got private clinics in Finland offering MRIs from ~230€ without any subsidies (AFAIK).
  • CogitoCogito 6y ago
    The US healthcare system isn’t really a very good model of market competition.
    • jbn 6y ago
      on the contrary (and to your implied point, if i'm not mistaken), it's more like a cartel bent on extracting the most value out of the "consumer"...
      • npsimons 6y ago
        Oh yeah, it's working very well, for the shareholders.
  • DanBC 6y ago
    The US has this thing in some states called "certificates of need". People who support the US market driven healthcare will say that interferences like CoN distort the market and prevent it working properly.
    • Gibbon1 6y ago
      I'm with Kenneth Arrow[1], markets for healthcare don't work, can never be made to work. [1] 'Uncertainty and the welfare economics of medical care - 1963'
      • DanBC 6y ago
        I agree. In England we've seen a lot of waste and harm caused by our weird markets, and we're moving away from them.
• Tade0 6y ago
  Discounting seasonal work my SO has been unemployed since 2016 and her experience was pretty much like in the article. It's like immortality and why you wouldn't want to be immortal according to Neil deGrasse Tyson - when there's no sence of urgency, there's nothing to make you do anything, so you just sit there and stare at the wall. Really depressing come to think of it.
• eric_b 6y ago
  I really struggled with the author's tone. It dripped of condescension towards those who live a "normal" lifestyle. I enjoy working. I find purpose and meaning it. I do not let it dominate my life, but without it I would feel incomplete. I run my own business now, and that is very satisfying - but even when I was a corporate consultant I found a lot of enjoyment from spending time with my coworkers, solving problems, and having something to do every day. For me anyways, a nice salary is also a form of validation and affirmation. That the effort you're expending is valued - at least by someone.
  • ericd 6y ago
    Eh the author was writing, not doing nothing. They just didn't have to worry about whether what they were doing could generate an income.
    • eric_b 6y ago
      Umm... I didn't say he was doing nothing... But to further clarify - My point was that work/income generation can add meaning and validation for lots of folks. Even the author hints at this - his writing wasn't taking off, no one was reading what he wrote, and he was getting discouraged. I dabble making music. I'm pretty good at it by hobbyist standards, but if I ever tried it "full time" no one would pay me and I'd never get huge. That's just the breaks in creative endeavors. My point is that I'd need a heck of a lot more validation and affirmation in my life than making music no one listens to. I suspect the same is true of the author and his writing.
      • ericd 6y ago
        You're right, I should've said he was working, just not for money. Your post seemed to be about how you enjoyed working, and how he was being condescending toward that, and that's why I mentioned that he was also working. You like running a business, he likes writing. I thought the condescension in the author's post was more towards getting validation from buying material things and basing their sense of self-worth on that, and a criticism of that part of our culture, not so much toward the idea of people working for money in and of itself. But that's a very fair point you make, about the need for validation, and how people get it from a job.
• sibeliuss 6y ago
  Thank you! I really appreciated the honesty in this piece.
• didibus 6y ago
  It's nice to see someone's honest thoughts. Though I can't help but find the person a little judgemental of their prior partner, or people who don't mind working. I also feel like they must have had a strange group of friends, 30k is the US median income, but it seems they only had friends making way more and also somehow being money obsessed. I do like the conclusion though, we're social animals, and the issue with early retirement is that you're the only one with free time during work hours. They were lucky to have a partner to share their time with, but in my humble opinion, it isn't healthy for a relationship to depend on a single person that heavily. The lack of time spent with others means this one person is all you have to distract yourself, and I think that puts stress on a relationship. I've never tried FI and early retirement, it's never really been something I've found appealing. That said, I've heard some takes on FI where they say it isn't so much that you'd stop working, but that you no longer depend on work. That means once you have financial freedom from work, you're free to see work as a hobby, and be much pickier about what work you do, where you work, how you allow yourself to be treated at work, etc. Since you know you can walk out at any time, since work isn't something you depend on. It gives you the big end of the stick in negotiating with employers, and that in itself is freeing. I think if I were to do FI, that's the type of FI I'd be interested in personally.
  • stocknoob 6y ago
    Yep, that's the point of FI. You can pick what you want to do with your life, whether that's working or not. Those who say "I don't see the point of being FI, I want to work my entire life" is like saying "I don't see the point of a BATNA in a negotiation".
    • mettamage 6y ago
      > BATNA Best Alternative To Negotiation Agreement I've only seen this acronym in a negotiation course at uni, I'm sure not everyone knows what it means ;-)
  • beforeolives 6y ago
    > That means once you have financial freedom from work, you're free to see work as a hobby, and be much pickier about what work you do, where you work, how you allow yourself to be treated at work, etc. Since you know you can walk out at any time, since work isn't something you depend on. It gives you the big end of the stick in negotiating with employers, and that in itself is freeing. You can get this if your skills are currently in demand and have a few months of expenses saved up. You don't need to get to financial independence to have a healthy relationship with your job.
• corry 6y ago
  Kudos to people who go FIRE without state-provided healthcare - from a "typical brainwashed Canadian" POV you're one health mishap / one ambulance-ride's worth of unexpected medical costs to kill the entire dream. Also - no kids - huge variable for FIRE obviously, but perhaps less obviously ALSO a huge variable for life's purpose. Something I've seen in my friend and family group is that a lot of couples hit a point where the answer to the "what's the point of all this?" is to create a family. Sorry if that sounded crushingly heteronormative - but this also includes gay folks in our life. Not suggesting that everyone should have kids, or that the childfree people are somehow bad, or even that it's not a rational choice to go childfree. All good to those thinking that way. But. If your conclusion is that love and connection is what life is all about (assume Maslow's lower levels are covered), then having children is possibly the magical thing missing. Not necessarily for everyone. But it's a game-changer for many of us and provides some incredible direction and purpose (as well as very low low's and constant anxieties). Having children also can change your priorities in how you spend your own life. For me personally, I'd want my children to see me working hard at something; having adventures; building things; changing things for the better. All of that can happen inside the typical FIRE life. But as he points out, your life gradually disconnects from things if you're truly independent and separate. And unless your wealth is large enough that your children will also be FIRE, you really want them to learn from you in how to navigate "the typical world" of jobs, managing finances, etc.
  • samvher 6y ago
    As someone who is about to get a first child - what kind of low lows should I brace myself for?
    • biesnecker 6y ago
      Every low you have now, but dealing with it while responsible for the life of a tiny person you inexplicably love more than anything else in the world, on zero sleep.
    • corry 6y ago
      Well, first let me say that being a parent is the best thing in my life (and there is a lot of very good stuff in my life), so don't over-index on what I'm about to say next. You'll be fine and better for it! You might have heard the quote "To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken." YMMV but the lowest of the low are the times when you feel the reality that you have become utterly, completely, impossibly vulnerable in a way that you've never felt before. Speaking for myself, I haven't loved anything in my life even remotely closely to how I love my kids. Closest thing is my wife (and I really love her). You go from... not wanting your plane to crash because, you know, it would suck to die and your spouse would be wrecked... to... my kids will grow up without me there to teach them, keep them safe, show them love. The angst I feel towards that is about 10000x worse than in how I thought about dying before kids. Heck even your understanding of "my parents would be sad if I died as a 30-year-old man" changes. No parent should ever have to outlive their child. Every headline that right now seems like a "sad story" - a parent losing a child, a child losing a parent, kids in cages, a daughter and father who are estranged, etc -- becomes an absolutely wrenching sadness if you even FLIRT with the idea of "what if that happened to me/my child"? You develop sensitivities that you are surprised at. You realize you have inherited an impossible and awesome responsibility of providing for, protecting, loving little blank slates of humanity... in a chaotic and dangerous world. There's no answer to it except to do your best, and hope/pray that you never have to face the unfaceable. That feeling isn't always present. But that's the dark shadow that occasionally crosses the sun. Oh and BTW - this love doesn't just magically appear for everyone right away. I know lots of fathers especially who don't feel much right away, but as you see your children go from blobs to little people, you fall in love with them. So don't sweat asking yourself if you're feeling it. Just let it happen. :)
• TheMagicHorsey 6y ago
  I have "retired" from work several times in my life, starting in my mid twenties, and then again in my late thirties ... and most recently in my mid forties. Each time I return to work. But each time it was for different reasons. I most recently left "retirement" to start a company. I don't need more money, but work keeps me sharp. My father retired in his sixties and immediately declined. I don't want to be like my dad.
  • driverdan 6y ago
    If you don't have any hobbies and just watch TV all day of course life will suck when you retire. My dad has been retired for almost 20 years and is as sharp as ever. He spends most of his days making things in his shop. I can't imagine living a life with nothing to look forward to outside of work.
• PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  I had to quit reading any FIRE (financial independence, early retirement) blogs because they were full of people headed down this same path: Extreme frugality, bare minimum savings, assuming their lifestyle would never change and nothing would ever go wrong. Retiring at 30 sounds great, but no one's life goes exactly to plan for next the 30-40 years until traditional retirement age. People change, expectations evolve, possessions wear out and need to be replaced. Living frugally may be fun when you're in your 20s, but it's not so fun when as you get older and your friends want to do things that require money (vacations, hobbies, dining out). Even worse when your romantic partner has different goals in life, as happened here. Many of the leanFIRE stories have their roots in people who hate their jobs so much that the only thing that motivates them is early retirement. They grind through the job the hate, counting days on their leanFIRE countdown until they can quit working and never look back. Most of these people would be much happier if they simply invested time and energy into finding a job they enjoy, or at least one that doesn't make them miserable. Even if it requires a pay cut and a later retirement date, it's much better to spend your time doing something you don't hate than it is to grind out a bad job in misery just to reach dreams of early retirement sooner.
  • jpdaigle 6y ago
    > Even worse when your romantic partner has different goals in life, as happened here. What stings (as I can't help but empathize with the author's feelings) in reading this blog is that it sounds like they were very aligned five years ago, but she discovered a gradual growing miscontent only once they tried the early-retiree life. Not sure if there's a possible fix there, other than trying to compromise (only one of them working, which would probably just lead to more growing apart)
    • Sileni 6y ago
      As many people learned last year, it's easy to gloss over the parts of someone you don't like when you're both actively working towards a goal. When you start spending too much time together, it's easy to have the relationship die from a thousand cuts.
• utborin 6y ago
  > I feel sure that some of them also felt that they were, you know, continuing to move and shake and improve their lives whereas, from their perspective, I’d sort of given up — my life appeared to be a static thing, unchanging, and therefore pretty fucking boring This is such a gross element of our culture—what's wrong with just living?—and I feel like it's not even really a matter of working vs. retired. I know folks who have worked the same job for decades, and they get the same harsh judgment from others as the author. But this used to be the norm! When did we switch into this thinking that we have to be constantly racking up gold stars in order for life to mean anything? Where did that idea come from?
  • arvinsim 6y ago
    Toxic hustle culture.
  • BLKNSLVR 6y ago
    I look to my cat for guidance. This cat, like most, is self-satisfied to the point of smugness. It sleeps throughout so much of its life, and yet there's no question as to its worth in the grand scheme of things - at least not in its own mind. That's my base level, for when I need it. Just exist, like the cat. As per desiderata[0]: "You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here" [0]:https://www.desiderata.com/desiderata.html https://www.desiderata.com/desiderata.html
• jplr8922 6y ago
  Amen to this blog post. Quality inter independence with other is more important than financial independence
• mathgladiator 6y ago
  The sad thing was the status grind on his partner; that's unfortunate but all too common. It seems he ended up with a more compatible partner in the end, so I'm happy for him. I recently learned there is this term called "Sigma male" where status is not interesting. Now, I don't know if it is real or just some label, but I do know people that don't care. I personally don't care, but this is after testing the waters of spending money for happiness (remodel house, changes, etc...). The key that I hope to leverage is that for me money nor traditional status does not translates directly into happiness. However, working on my silly programming language and products that use it: very happy. My hope when I retire is to work almost full-time with the flexibility to stop and go. I'll be tinkering on http://www.adama-lang.org/ http://www.adama-lang.org/ whilst I try to bootstrap a board game company. I've come to the realization that most of my ideas are going to be seen harshly from many technical people, and they will not be taken seriously at first. My strategy therefor is to balance the meta-game of language building with building actual games. For instance, I'm currently designing a two player deck builder game for husband and wives to play. I gave a demo of a product that I am building with a friend, and his mind was blown. Sadly, this is the form of status that I seek. I don't see the lifestyle or the materialism, I seek demonstrating my cleverness and being ahead of the curve.
  • hw_tw_03_22 6y ago
    >I've come to the realization that most of my ideas are going to be seen harshly from many technical people, and they will not be taken seriously at first. No, I think your ideas on fatFIRE are right and should be copied by everyone who can.
    • mathgladiator 6y ago
      Well, the ideas I was referring to was my programming language ... for board games: http://www.adama-lang.org/ http://www.adama-lang.org/ I imagine that I have a few years until I see some of my ideas being more mainstream. There are a few database offerings (like firebase) which are similar to the infrastructure that I am going to build, but I am targeting a completely new data stack. Such a build doesn't make sense without products, and I'm limiting myself to board games because... that's what I want to ship. If I push my ideas out as a replacement for... mongo or mysql, then I'm going to get a lot of push-back. IF, instead, I push my ideas out via new products like a deck builder for married couples, then I just took an eccentric path.
• andyxor 6y ago
  interesting read, the author got lucky his ex-wife didn't sue him for half of the 'nest-egg' and alimony, the whole FI dream would have gone up in smoke.
• rantwasp 6y ago
  I like the author’s follow up. It provides good insight into what FI/RE can turn into and it also helps both people that are thinking of FI and both people that don’t know what is/hate the concept. There is something deep in there about social bonds and being able to relate to people. As long as most people work themselves to death, people that go the FI route will always feel ostracized/left out. It’s just how social things work :( I also like how the author recognized the issues that were cropping up and actually course-corrected. I find this highly unusual and I am really happy it worked out.
• Invictus0 6y ago
  I don't think there is anything really wrong with FIRE itself. What I do think is that many people working towards FIRE don't know how to be happy and think that work is the only thing between them and happiness. The other problem is that extremely frugal people are going to have a harder time making and maintaining friendships, because people bond over activities that cost money. I would argue that being able to quickly and systematically create deep, high-quality relationships is as important if not more important to FIRE than actually having the money.
• allenu 6y ago
  I skimmed through maybe 50% of it, but a really great read. I'll try to re-read in-depth some more later. Some really good nuggets of wisdom in there, even if you are not planning on retiring early. I'm kind of in the same place as the author, although I don't think I would necessarily really retire. I'd just take lower-paying jobs that were more fulfilling so as to keep me interacting with others and giving me some sort of daily challenge. My takeaway from the post is you really can't predict where your life will go in the future. It's good to recognize that and be okay with it. A lot of us, myself included, are caught up in planning and doing the right things, but even with careful planning, you really don't have total control over what happens to you. Being resilient is an important part of moving forward. The inability to relate to those working is understandable. I wonder if the author had been doing something more fulfilling to fill his time, he would have related more to his friends? Maybe not on the "making money and buying things" side, but the feeling of progressing in something. If I were to retire early, I feel like I would need something to keep me occupied, some sort of "life's work" to keep me going. Otherwise, it just feels like living out the rest of your days, filling it with movies, video games, and books.
• pbuzbee 6y ago
  Sounds like OP's spouse was the tipping point. If they stayed on the same page, I wonder if things would've gone differently (ignoring the medical issues which aren't trivial, of course). The OP seems content to live a life without work. For him, by far the main reason to work was for income. If you don't want to work, then why keep doing so when you no longer need income to fuel your lifestyle? Obviously people are different here, and many (esp. on HN) derive other values from work. The wrench comes when you're surrounded by people who aren't on the same page. Like OP pointed out, you become more disconnected as you both can't relate to the other's chosen lifestyle. OP sees their peers' lifestyles as consumption-focused. And I'd bet those friends couldn't relate to OP either. OP's spouse probably felt caught in the middle between freedom and social inclusion. If you can't relate to your peers, early retirement could feel more like stagnation than freedom. Social inclusion is a hard thing to give up.
  • kelnos 6y ago
    Yeah, OP pointed out that he started drifting away from many of his friends because they were too focused on earning and spending as a goal in and of itself, and they were no longer compatible. But he still had a core group of friends who he still felt close to and understood his lifestyle. It's possible his spouse just didn't have that. Sure, you can always say "get better friends", but that's easier said than done, and it has to be a huge shock to be unable to relate to all of the people you've counted as friends over the past decade or more, and watch your friendships die away. It's even worse if those former "friends" are judging you negatively for not "keeping up" with them. I do expect that to happen with some of my friends (I'm FI, but haven't yet pulled the RE trigger). Some of them with similar levels of FI (or at least the potential) are still very focused on work and building (or helping to build) companies, and don't seem to want to change that. I'm happy for them that they're able to do that freely, without financial worries, but I'm (sadly) sure that we'll drift apart once I retire. Fortunately I do have a solid group of friends who have similar goals as I do, or at least understand and support the life I want, so I expect those friendships to remain strong.
    • ghaff 6y ago
      With respect to the friends, I also wonder how much wasn't simply friends getting older and in the natural course of events spending more time with family and other interests. That's pretty much my experience that has very little to do with different financial goals.
• sfblah 6y ago
  I was with the story until I clicked on the link to the discussion with the partner and there was the sentence about how she "learned French last year." That description really tells me something about the person who wrote this. First of all, you can't "learn a language" in a year. It takes multiple years, and it's really a journey not a destination. I guarantee you his partner doesn't speak French at, say, a C1 or C2 level. Impossible. Second, I feel like it exposes something about the writer here. Too much emphasis on state, too little on the transitions between state.
• ku-man 6y ago
  Don't trust women. Ever.
• d23 6y ago
  I appreciate the author writing this. Cutting this down to its essence, the guy managed to quit working for a significant chunk of time, went through a major health crisis, lost his wife, and still managed to increase his net worth over that period. The emotional aspect is obviously tough, but the fact that he was financially responsible and had a big nest egg gave him a huge cushion to work off of. Financial independence doesn't have to be a binary thing. I'd like to achieve it not so I can sit around and do nothing but in fact so I can do whatever I want. I appreciate the author's candidness. It's important not to look at any of these things as fixed, and it's important not to oversimplify.
• Zelphyr 6y ago
  As a somewhat aside; the author points to something about finding therapy that I think most people don't understand which is: you need to find a therapist you connect with and usually you have to see a few before you will find one. It's not like you're finding a life partner, by any means. Just someone who you feel like you can make a connection with, who understands what you're going through, and can speak to you in a way that you can understand. I, for example, found a great therapist on my second try. He helped me tremendously but then happened to decide to retire right around when I felt like I didn't need to see him as much anymore. However, he recommended a colleague who he thought I would do well with who I have seen a couple of times since and it has worked out very well.
• slumdev 6y ago
  "Public Service Announcement: If you've EVER called your wife your 'partner,' then your bench press is 50% of your wife's boyfriend's weight." -- @timotheeology
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• UncleOxidant 6y ago
  I've essentially been FIREd for almost 18 months now (except for a very brief gig last fall). I really didn't realize that I was kind'a sort'a retired at 57 until just a few months ago. I was in a startup that ran out of money towards the end of 2019 and they kept telling me through 2020 that they'd get more funding soon and call me back to work - but of course, that never happened, and at this point it's not gonna. So that's how I eased into "early" retirement - if 57 is early. But really, what I've realized in the last few months is that I don't dislike working as long as I'm working for/with nice folks doing interesting work with a good amount of autonomy (all true in the case of the previous startup gig). But what I do hate with a burning passion is looking for work and interviewing - the terrible tech interviewing situation has been well documented here on HN, so I won't say more. So at this point I consider myself retired from interviewing, but not from software development. The short gig I had in the Fall was a contract with a previous employer who needed a quick project done (no interviewing required). Like the author of the article I have had some issues with finding "purpose". It can be hard to relax into this kind of nonemployed situation and when you do get relaxed then you start to wonder if you're losing purpose and drifting. This is the battle - you're going to face it whether you retire early in your 30s or if you retire at the traditional age of 65. I'm trying to keep reading papers and doing some coding but I often come to the "what's the point?" crisis while working on something. Many times that's led to just dropping said project and going on to find another, but now I'm trying to push through the "what's the point" point. During the short gig last Fall, I did notice that working more than 24 hours a week is difficult at this point - fortunately it was a 24 hour/week gig, but I'd get to the middle of that 3rd day and be like "Yeah, I'm really ready to not be working anymore this week". This was after about a year of not working. I suppose that if that short gig had lasted longer I would have gotten more into the rhythm of work again.
• sys_64738 6y ago
  Some people like to say they need to work to not be bored. I'd rather just be bored. If I didn't need to work then I wouldn't and I'd rather be bored with it. But I have plenty of stuff I could be doing instead of wasting life doing work.
• joeldg 6y ago
  He did this all wrong, he didn't have a solid 'plan' for his retirement to keep him busy besides basically be being boring. As a writer he could have given himself writing assignments after a three month "chill" phase. Could have built up a back catalog of self-published works. Lots of things -- and even in 2015 'this' was a thing the FIRE websites would write about a LOT, keeping yourself occupied and engaged after FIRE is extremely important.
• bulletwolf 6y ago
  I've got 5 years of early retirement under my belt, and I feel like I've had the inverse experience of the OP. The first two years were an incredibly difficult transition period for me. Losing the status of being a higher up at a successful (small) company was extremely painful, especially because I didn't realize how much of a perk of the job it was. Like many others in this thread, I realized work provided a venue to solve interesting problems with interesting people, and I knew I would miss that (but also knew there were other, non-work ways to scratch that itch). Looking back, though, the ego/status aspect was probably the biggest benefit, and I never admitted that to myself. Fairly soon into retirement, I made the choice to address the issue by decreasing my ego needs, rather than pursuing another high status non-work position. In some sense, it wasn't too hard to do (though I did find that I had to give up programming for a while, since it turned out that, despite my love of math and puzzle solving, the real biggest draw of programming was the megalomaniacal sense of being a god in a universe of your own creation). The issue is, I went too far, and experienced pretty significant depersonalization, which, from the inside wasn't terrible, but I think made me too weird to interact with my family and friends. I've currently accepted more ego back into my life (hence this self-centered posting, for instance), but kept it below the old levels. I'm happy with my life, and find it much more even keeled and comfortable than when I was working, though I still miss the emotional highs of succeeding in a big work project. Anyway, I think what really got me to log on here and post this was seeing the various other posters claiming work as a source of meaning and maybe poo pooing the OP, a bit, for giving it up. Now, on the one hand, I'm not really disagreeing, but I just wanted to add the nuance that, for me, turns out most of that meaning was not coming from nice pro-social things like cooperating with a team and working on interesting problems, but mostly just base status drive and ego. Now, I don't know how much my experience applies to the general population and most jobs, but I have a feeling it probably does apply to a fair chunk of the readers of this forum.
  • neogodless 6y ago
    Ah, I feel this. Kind of funny (funny ha ha or funny ouch?) but on my last two projects, I was definitely riding a high of sorts. New languages/frameworks but before long, I had figured out the lay of the land and some of the quirks of these languages and felt like I was really productive, and able to help teammates with questions. In both cases, 6-12 month long projects ended with basically being thrown in the bin. So, yeah, you can imagine any sense of purpose I may have assigned myself by being involved in these projects was an illusion. Nope - I just enjoyed getting good at something! Then I spent six months unemployed, and spent some of that doing hobbies I enjoyed... even getting half decent at some things I've tried before. But by the end of the period, given the constraints of the pandemic, I was missing that feeling of doing something on work days that felt like accomplishment. I definitely think for anyone retiring, early or otherwise, you will have to spend a period of decompression and adjustment, either learning to accept consumption over creation, or finding new ways to create. You'll need to find a new balance, and you'll have a lot more time to do it.
• beefield 6y ago
  As much as it is worthless to give advice in internet to strangers, I would advice all FIRE people to give a try of RE for a decent amount of time (say at least a year) already before FI. It is way easier to come up with money to live off for a year as opposed to the rest of your life. And frankly, I am quite sure most people do not like RE. Unless you count as RE a life where you do some kind of work that may pay less but what you really enjoy. In that case, why wait for FI and waste many years doing something you do not like? (Of course there are exceptions) And if you can't handle the risk of dropping out of your current job for a year, you may also want to seriously think if you can handle the risk of RE regardless of what your spreadsheet says, and again consider wheher you are wasting your life waiting for something you actually do not want.
• pcglue 6y ago
  2.8M nut, about 50/50 in regular/retirement accounts. I'm mid 40's, married with two pre-teen kids, annual expenses of $80K, live in HCOL area (Southern California). Would you FIRE in this situation? Would you take a year long hiatus? As much as I would like to FIRE, I can't/won't, even though the "numbers" say I probably could. But seriously considering a months to year long career break/sabbatical/hiatus, because I'm extremely extremely burnt out. Has anyone here taken a gap year in their 40's/50's? Was it difficult to find another job?
  • ed25519FUUU 6y ago
    Another approach to FIRE that I think is actually more fulfilling is to gradually reduce working hours until "retired". For example, explore a position that lets you work 4 days a week and take Mondays or Fridays off. Later, switch to part time or contracting 6 months on 6 months off. I don't personally think gap years will be very fulfilling unless it's something like a whole family 1 year vacation where you all go and live someplace.
    • pcglue 6y ago
      I would absolutely love to find a software position with 24-32 hour week, but I have not heard of such a thing, short of going out on your own and freelancing. No employer I know of (in software field, I don't want to go work retail) would consider allowing employees to work part time. I have considered contracting or even freelancing too, but I've been a W2 worker my entire career. I'd have to look into how to do this.
      • mettamage 6y ago
        For EU citizens, The Netherlands is totally a country where 32 hours per week is possible. The pay is also a lot lower ;-) Though, compared to a 40 hour work week, you only take a 20% pay cut (and probably get passed up on promotions, so there is an opportunity cost).
        • pcglue 6y ago
• ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  And under-looked approach to retirement that I'm personally targeting is reducing working hours and then moving to contracting. Late 30s/early 40s: 4 days a week with Fridays or Mondays off. Late 40s through 50s: contracting with increasing time off between contracts. E.g., 6 on 6 off, 3 on 9 off, 1 on 11 off, etc.
  • mettamage 6y ago
    IMO this comment is underappreciated, I wish I could upvote it more. I favorite-ed it at least :)
• koonsolo 6y ago
  Here is some relationship advice to all the young guys here. It is not only some theory, this is painful experience of real life. If there would be no women, we would all still be hunter gatherers. Hunting for a small bit of the day, and for the rest doing nothing and sitting in the tree. If you put women into the equation, they want a roof over their head. So they pick a partner who can provide that. So now we all work a bit extra to get the roof. But now the most wanted woman is most interested in the guy with the biggest roof. So now there is a competition. Women picking the most capable guys. Now the race is on. If you think the modern women think differently now, you are very wrong. Now, after this story, you might think I am a very sexist person. But you think wrong. I took care of my 3 kids during my fulltime job, while my wife was constantly on business trips. I love taking care of my kids, I help out in the household, etc. I am what they call a "new/modern man". But don't think that any women has any respect for a guy that is not a "real man", getting ahead of all the others. If she thinks you are a lazy loser, she will make the jump.
  • z77dj3kl 6y ago
    This would probably come across better if you didn't phrase it in terms of genders (assuming you believe it's not a gendered phenomenon). I'm sure a majority of people choose a partner largely based on their status and achievements (whatever metrics they use for that).
    • koonsolo 6y ago
      My wife is a relationship coach, and what women want in a partner is very different than what men want. To keep it short, men want "pretty", women want "successful". You cannot just discard evolution and biological differences when it comes down to partner preferences. I believe in gender equality, and gender differences. Both can coexist.
  • istjohn 6y ago
    The world isn't that simple. It also seems a little self-serving to lay the blame for materialism at the feet of women. Someone else might argue capitalism is just a testosterone fueled pissing contest, men competing to see who has the largest...bank account. Both accounts are reductive and wrong.
• simonebrunozzi 6y ago
  FI = Financial Indipendence Sometimes acronyms are not immediately easy to guess.
• greedo 6y ago
  I have a high school friend who retired around 40. He came from a family of money, but worked in corporate IT sales for a large, well known vendor. We had lost touch with each other until 5 years ago when he reached out to me via FB and wanted to call. We spoke for a few hours about our lives, and I realized he was a lost soul. He had a wife and children, and had been retired for over twenty years. His kids were now all grown and out of the house, and it seemed like he was asking "what should I do now." In contrast to him, my kids were in middle school, and retirement was 15 years away, at a much lower standard of living. My friend had spent the last two decades traveling; he would travel to a country, live there for 3-6 months and immerse himself in it. His family would stay for a while, but then return to the States when school started, while he would remain. He seemed very curious about "normal" life which he seemed to have growing up. His father was in financial services, and he had a stay at home mom. I envied my friend's financial independence, but nothing of his retirement life other than the opportunity to travel on a whim. Life without moorings is to be adrift, forever seeking the oxytocin rush of new things, and then being disappointed when it fades. I haven't spoken to him since, though he randomly posts to FB; I hope he's found real happiness and acceptance in his wanderings.
  • happilyFIREd 6y ago
    "Money magnifies who you already are"
    • mettamage 6y ago
      I've noticed this as well when I started to get to know some rich people. Their personality seemed magnified to me compared to people with a similar personality but less money.
  • dencodev 6y ago
    I like this article around this topic. I read it many years years ago and it rang very true for me. Traveling can be fun but it doesn't solve the problem needing purpose (for those with that need). https://medium.com/personal-growth/travel-is-no-cure-for-the-mind-e449d3109d71 https://medium.com/personal-growth/travel-is-no-cure-for-the...
• j7ake 6y ago
  One thing that came to mind while reading was how sensitive the "financial independence" path was to unexpected changes in life. If ones model financial independence is so fragile that "comfort spending" is not included in the analysis, then I am not quite sure one can call that strategy financial independence.
  • kelnos 6y ago
    Right. I think a lot of people model their future financial needs on their current situation and current level of expenses, with moderate yearly increases, and that just isn't realistic. Even people who do take it into account don't go far enough IMO. Then again, there are some medical diagnoses that will bankrupt you (in the US) even if you're employed and have good insurance, so I think there are some things you can safely not make part of the equation. I can totally understand and forgive not modeling "what happens if my partner and I divorce", but it's something people need to consider.
    • mettamage 6y ago
      IMO marriage has some similarities with a startup. This is one of them. Disclaimer: I've never been married. I might, later in life.
• ChuckMcM 6y ago
  I liked this piece. It is well written and the author has good self awareness which is helping them in their journey. I also see in it a common question which the author hints at but doesn't seem to land on, "What is my purpose?" I get emails from people sometimes who write "I want to be rich! Tell me how to do that." and I always ask them "Why do you want to be rich?" It is however also the question the FIRE folks should also be asking. Here is a clue, no amount of money will make you happy or satisfied with your life, if your life has no purpose. And that purpose has to come from inside of you, not from some external source. Having kids may align your brain with the 'purpose' of raising and launching those kids into the world. But folks who retire "early" (what is early) and have no purpose find retired life fun for a couple of years and then it loses a lot of its luster. They need a 'job' which gives them purpose. And the longer you live the more you realize there is no "win" square at the end of your life, your life just stops. While that can be depressing, it can also be liberating. Consider how you can fix one small problem, provide durable support for one person or group of people who need support, and you start to realize that even after you are dead they will still be supported, and the problem will still be fixed. That is "winning." I didn't realize any of this until I had kids. I mean up to that point my path was "learn all the things, get rich, and retire to a life of leisure." But I did have kids, and I found I got much more satisfaction out of the path of "Help launch these new people into the world so that their impact is positive and your own contribution to the world lives on." Many writers have written, "We live on through the lives and deeds of our children." and I found that much more profound once I had children. In my professional life I found I get the same sense of accomplishment when I help someone move to their next phase, when I was presiding over the robotics club it was great to help new members build their first robot and to see where they took it. Doing those things doesn't require being "rich" or being "famous." It just requires me to take time to help on things when I can with advice and guidance. I found it was the difference between "having a purpose" and my earlier goal of "get rich and retire."
  • ChuckMcM 6y ago
    A couple of people pointed out to me that the author had already said they felt their purpose was to be a writer, and they have taken classes on writing. I spent some of my time while walking thinking about those comments and came up with the following thought; The author made those statements in a nearly 10,000 word blog post. So in many ways they are already a writer. The difference I was trying to communicate is that a "purpose" in this case, which involve writing, might be "I want to share important stories that are impactful in people's lives." or "I want to entertain people with stories of fantastic worlds." or "I want to help people understand complex subjects without having to wade through tons of irrelevant things." Those kinds of statements are purposes that are achieved through writing. For me, the litmus test for whether something is a "purpose" or simply a "skill" is that a "purpose" generates tasks in service to that purpose. Skill building improves your ability to execute on those tasks. I know, kinda meta.
• 11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
  I suppose one reason people focus on early retirement is that their work life is unfulfilling. It may follow that a person in an unfulfilling job who has the agency to get themselves into a fulfilling job would do so. Once retired, that agency would lead to activities that kept them occupied, feeling valued and meaningful. Someone who is in an unfulfilling job and cannot make the move to fulfillment working is likely also not going to find retirement fulfilling. I'd venture that our hero actually isn't completely clear on what makes him tick.
• esturk 6y ago
  Despite some in this thread decrying the author, judging him on his life choices, etc. I feel the main culprit in this case is still the healthcare issue. The problem in the US is that proper healthcare is tied to a job. If the author had proper healthcare (say offered by the Government), he may still be in retirement. For our European counterparts, ask yourself this. Would 900k euro in savings be enough for retirement in Europe?
  • twiddling 6y ago
    The healthcare issue is a huge one in the US in holding back folks. The patchwork of ACA coverage still being brokered through private insurance companies is a PITA.
  • mettamage 6y ago
    For a single person, yes. 900K * 0.03 = 27K My strategy (NL) would be: buy a house/apartment for around 300K to 400K to live in (to combat rent inflation). Use the other 500K * 0.03 = 15K to live from. For me personally: - food is 100 euro's (buy things in bulk, buy cheap and micronutrient dense veggies like spinach, don't buy meat, buy frozen fish, etc.) - utilities is 300 euro's (water + electricity + heat + internet + phone) - health insurrance is 150 euro's - disposable income is (15K / 12) - 550 = 1250 - 550 = 700 euro's. Property taxes still need to be paid, entertainment and transportation. I may or may not have forgotten a few things, if it's still too little, then up the withdrawal rate to 4% instead of 3% and buy the 300K house/apartment.
• hindsightbias 6y ago
  For someone who wants to own so little they do seem to be a bit absolutist owning someone's fidelity. It would seem a lot about this journey was all about him.
• biren34 6y ago
  I've taken a few different "retirement" periods in my life, each lasting about 1-2 years. The first one, I intended to write, but ended up playing World of Warcraft. The second one, I significantly improved my coding skills (I was primarily doing finance immediately before this, and as a result of this period, my career became concentrated in product management + data + BI). The the third one I spent learning to trade. I even flirted with starting a hedge fund for a bit, but have since backed off those ambitions. I'm currently back at a full time job doing data + BI + finance + product for a small startup. My biggest takeaways from all these experiences: 1. That kind of freedom is challenge in and of itself. It's amazing to have 12-18 months to dig in deep into a new area (I call these my self-directed masters programs). The feeling of freedom and mastery can't be beat--but most people can't sit in a room by themselves 8-10 hours a day and not go crazy or just waste it on distractions. That in itself is a skill. My first attempt ended up in gaming instead of writing, which turned out okay--but I still wonder where I could have ended up if I had my current level of ability to stay on course. 2. No matter what you do, if you go deep into an area, it seems to add to your overall career progression (for example, I got into video-game product management largely because of my year playing WoW). I doubt you can do nothing--or anything--but at least for me, my desire to want to learn something seemed to be guiding light enough. 3. It's really lonely. Like in undergrad or my MBA, I was learning a ton of new stuff--but unlike those times, there were few people in my life to share the journey with. People were either busy/disinterested or much further along. I really wish I had understood the value of being part of a cohort when I had the chance. 4. I should have spent more time working out. At my age now, I can't believe I found it so hard to dedicated 5-10 hours a week for exercise, especially when my body responded so readily to it (compared to now--I guess youth is wasted on the young once again). 5. Going back and forth between these times and full-time jobs is a great way to level-up and then lock in a new backstop for your next career move. Adding in a little consulting also makes the interviewing story better and gives you some real-world problems to tackle with the new skills you're developing.
• flowerlad 6y ago
  Health insurance is the reason I am still working. Sure, you can buy insurance in the individual market, but it is not comparable. Take a look at the provider network. Even if you buy the best insurance available in the individual market the provider network is likely to local whereas employer-provided insurance will have a nationwide network. If you get a rare disease for which the best experts are in another state you'll regret buying insurance off of the individual market.
• chmod600 6y ago
  I don't know much about the early retirement crowd, but this turned me away from the idea. Financial independence, or at least some freedom, sounds great. But money is just a tool to some end. What end? Ultimately, having some output and being helpful to others is pretty basic to happiness. A job is a good vehicle for that, though not the only one. It sounds like he and his wife had a shared goal and developed a great relationship. Then they never really had another goal after they accomplished that one. No kids, no charity, no research, not helping the community. Wouldn't it be a lot better to get close to independence, then just take off a couple months at a time? Or at least build up some real goals you care about? Or make/adopt some kids/pets that can use all that attention?
• glangdale 6y ago
  The whole thing seemed weirdly condescending towards people with normal working and spending habits, especially because it's not obvious to me what was so great about what the author was doing. The dude hung out for a few years, failed to become a writer, and did some travel, bored his partner to tears, and ... "sucked down an awful lot of media — movies, video games, books", then learned the shit that normal people already know (that unexpected expensive things happens in life). "To me, these people on their exercise machines were standing still — nothing was happening in their lives". Um, ok. One of the richest and busiest people I have ever met - like serious 0.1%-percenter rich - is always off hiking in Papua New Guinea and spending shit-tons of money getting wells dug in crappy areas and fighting dysentery and improving the lot of young girls by funding schools and so on. If that person gave me shit for my materialistic lifestyle it'd be one thing. I also know plenty of broke people who do incredibly righteous and interesting stuff, and I'd happily cop the same line from them. This bozo? Not so much. It's like Holden Caulfield, but middle aged. He barely mentions anything outside himself aside from his partners, old and new (aside from the vague genuflection to CO2 as a justification for his lifestyle, which sits rather poorly with "A trip to Hawaii. Another to Portugal and France" if he's aiming for secular sainthood over an allegedly low-emission lifestyle). In a shocking development, life spent as a bizarrely young version of one of those old retired people who doesn't do anything beyond travel and putter around isn't that great.
  • mratzloff 6y ago
    Calling someone who has made himself remarkably vulnerable and open a "bozo" because he doesn't have the same values or life experiences as you do is unkind and uncharitable. We all experience things in our own time and our own way, and while I have my own thoughts about his experiences and areas that he might examine more closely, I'm also not revealing personal details of my own life for public examination.
    • glangdale 6y ago
      I called him a bozo not because we don't share values, but because: (a) he doesn't seem to have any particularly profound values aside from "avoid the discomfort of working" and "it's nice to travel", and (b) he devoted large amounts of his post to slag off most of the rest of the world (including his ex-wife - and there's of course even more to read, if you're a masochist) in astonishingly adolescent terms. If you're looking for "unkind and uncharitable" takes, you might try rereading the article.
• quicklime 6y ago
  I realized two things lately: 1) the vast majority of people hate their jobs, and 2) most people end up unhappy when they stop working. Life is a hard game to win.
• ggggtez 6y ago
  TL;DR - Guy starts out thinking he's smarter and wiser than his friends > "I see our current lives as better. Theirs appear to be a constant struggle most of the time." Magically his opinion about being a wage slave changes the moment he realizes he needs money. > Overall, though, I find I’m mostly okay with working again, especially because I suddenly need and value the money. Amazing insight here.
• tppiotrowski 6y ago
  The reason I believe most people don’t love their jobs is because people rarely donate to charity, refuse to give money to pan handlers and hate paying taxes. There is a feeling that you are “sacrificing” your life (you’d rather be doing something else) when you go to work and you cling to the money you earn for your “sacrifice”. Now imagine you got paid for running, reading, watching Netflix or sleeping. Something you really enjoy. I think we would see more people dropping a homeless man a $5’er thinking I’m planning to run/read/sleep later anyways. There is no sacrifice to get that money back. It was what I would have done anyways. Edit: now that I think about it, social status probably keeps people clinging to that money.
• tqi 6y ago
  > Once they have been established in their careers for a decade or more, they 1) feel secure in their job 2) have accumulated some money and 3) feel compelled to start spending. And once everyone in your peer group is spending more money — well, then everyone is looking over their shoulder at everyone else’s spending and this is really how the whole Keeping Up game begins. This tendency overtook even people I would not have suspected to be vulnerable to the treadmill — one of my old friends from college for example, who grew up poor and didn’t spend much back in the day, now has a summer home in New Hampshire and a 4000 sq foot McMansion and all the trimmings. With that condescending attitude to have toward other people's personal tastes and preferences. It's great that this person doesn't care about material goods. But the fact that he so clearly thinks that his choices are "better" than the ones others have made makes it no mystery to me why those "friendships" suffered.
• m3nu 6y ago
  Wealth and investments are not ends themselves. Having enough money won't guarantee a meaningful life. This is a mistake many working people, not just the FIRE community makes. I found the concept of "funded contentment" by Brian Portnoy[1] useful: > ... wealth and investing are about funding contentment and underwriting a meaningful life, as defined by you. Not about getting rich, having "more," and losing yourself on the hedonic treadmill. So without having defined "contentment" first, you'll be unhappy either way, retired or working. Contentment itself seems to come from a combination of three things. The weights tend to be different for each person: autonomy, mastery, and purpose.[2] I found this a very useful framework for myself and I don't see early retirement as a goal any more. Instead, I focus on the things that make me content, which is mainly mastery and autonomy for me. 1: https://www.alexjhughes.com/books/2018/7/4/the-geometry-of-wealth-brian-portnoy https://www.alexjhughes.com/books/2018/7/4/the-geometry-of-w... 2: https://www.danpink.com/books/drive/ https://www.danpink.com/books/drive/
• deleted 6y ago
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• inglor_cz 6y ago
  Interesting. I am a writer who now makes enough money off writing to have relegated programming to a hobby status. Reading his piece, my impression was that this guy can formulate his ideas fairly well, but his writing is horribly stretched and, at times, outright boring and bland. IDK if this can be fixed with enough practice. Maybe. Maybe he just does not have enough "internal energy" (for the lack of a better term) to spout some engaging prose spontaneously. That could have been fine in the 19th century, when long and low energy novels were the norm, but contemporary standards and expectations are very different. Accidentally, I feel that my writing flows better if I have something else to do, too. Maybe being retired just does not help you get things done.