17 ms·

I’ve made a Cursed USB-C 2.0 device

mschuster91 6y ago
Am I reading this right that by shorting the up and down D+ (and D-) line as one is supposed to by the spec, one essentially creates a HF stub? Or doesn't the stub matter for signal integrity / EMI because it's only a couple of mm and fully enclosed by the shield of the plug and the receptacle?
- Sebb767 6y ago
  The tweet with the spec talks about USB2.0 devices, so it's probably not as sensitive as higher speed 3.0+ device would be (just guessing here)
- NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
  I think it just means that there's only actually a single differential pair for USB 2 so connecting the two "D+"s from each side of the connector, and the same for the "D-"s, is recommended. This doesn't work for the super-speed differential pairs because they're actually different lanes.
saagarjha 6y ago
Oh, so like a Kanzi cable!
Hnaomyiph 6y ago
I feel like USB-C is cursed enough on its own. The sheer number of times I’ve had to explain to family members why just because the two USB-C ports on a laptop look the same, doesn’t mean they work the same.
- sneak 6y ago
  This is true of electrical power outlets (15A/20A), HDMI, schrader valves, RJ45 (this one especially!), and many other things in life, and I don't think it's very fair to pick on USB-C in this manner when it does so many other things much better than previous alternatives.
  - bellyfullofbac 6y ago
    But USB was supposed to be the unifying connector. Before: "Here in the back of the computer we have PS/2 ports (1 for keyboard and 1 for mouse), a parallel port, serial, 25-pin serial, game port". Introducing USB: "Everything is USB now! Plug anything anywhere!" USB version whatever: "Well the sockets look all the same, but you can only plug your display in here, to charge it you have to connect it here", etc, etc.
  - unwind 6y ago
    But the point is that USB was introduced more or less on the promise of not being like that. When USB 1.1 came in the late 90s, it was pretty nice. Lots of different ports and cables went away, and all were replaced by standardized USB ports and cables. You could geek out and learn the difference of upstream (A, host) and downstream (B, device) ports, the various types of B port sizes, and that was it. Later USB 2.0 was introduced and just (bam!) made it all 40 times faster, but it still logically worked pretty much the same. Then USB 3.x came and just blew all that to h-ll, which is frustrating for both old bearded geeks, and* new/non-technical users.
    - mminer237 6y ago
      For consumers, wasn't USB 3.0 just USB 2.0 but a few times faster? USB-C is what is confusing to some people. Replacing micro USB was straightforward enough, but replacing USB-A is a rough process.
      - tsbinz 6y ago
        USB 3 is also what kills your wifi if things aren't properly done (e.g. https://medium.com/ghostbar/your-usb-3-0-hub-is-killing-your-wifi-some-of-them-yes-a3c343dc4000 https://medium.com/ghostbar/your-usb-3-0-hub-is-killing-your... - and it's not only a mac problem), so it's not just 2.0 but faster.
    - mumblemumble 6y ago
      I guess? Except that my desk has three USB cords, each with a color-coded label so that I can tell what each one is for. One is seemingly the only one that will charge my e-reader, but only does low speed data transmission so it never really gets used for anything but my e-reader. Another is power only and therefore useful for charging devices without my computer attempting to talk to them. And a third is a proper, modern (ish, I suppose), well-behaved USB 2.0 cable.
- airhead969 6y ago
  And why didn't it use a water-/corrosion-proof, breakaway magnetic connector?
  - gumby 6y ago
    Cost. At least the part that wears out first is on the cable, not the device. That was one of the botches of mini-UCB A
- magicalhippo 6y ago
  > just because the two USB-C ports on a laptop look the same, doesn’t mean they work the same. This is already a solved problem[1] through color coding. Not sure why they couldn't use that scheme. Maybe combine a few to indicate things like DisplayPort and Thunderbolt capability, could have up to four quadrants for example. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_System_Design_Guide#Color-coding_scheme_for_connectors_and_ports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_System_Design_Guide#Color-c...
  - Piskvorrr 6y ago
    Nope. That's a UX fail: "of course they're different, didn't you RTFM and observe the correct color?"
  - tenacious_tuna 6y ago
    > this is already a solved problem through color coding Speaking from experience, I don't think most end users are liable to pay enough attention to their ports to notice the color coding. I remember family members being confused by the blue 3.0 ports when those were a thing--now there's also red ones, and different color C ones, and some C ports have the little lightning bolt and some don't, and most users don't know what THAT means. The value-add of USB C was supposedly you didn't have to buy different cables for different purposes now, you could just slap everything on a C port. But of course that's not truly the case, and we're now in a messy soup of standards and capabilities that even to seasoned tech professionals are hard to disentangle, much less for end users. Calling this a solved problem 'cuz they slapped some colors on some of the ports is missing the forest for the trees.
    - yarcob 6y ago
      Does the bolt mean Thunderbolt or power delivery?
      - sgtnoodle 6y ago
        My wife's laptop has three USB-C ports and the laptop charges off all 3, but only one has the bolt. I strongly suspect it means Thunderbolt support, i.e. it's the only port that will work well with a dock.
- marcosdumay 6y ago
  Between USB2, USB2-Power, and USB3, I haven't got a laptop that I know what USB port does what in a long time... And I still didn't get any with USB-C.
  - myself248 6y ago
    To make it worse, there's a Thunderbolt port which is indicated by a little lightning-bolt near it, and a charging port which is indicated by a little lightning bolt near it, and neither of those has anything to do with the Lightning connector. Some USB-C ports have DisplayPort output, so there's a DP near them. Some do Power Delivery, so there's a battery near them. And some are also a power input to the laptop, so there might be other random symbols near them. It's chaos. I just juggle plugs until I get the expected behavior, and sometimes I never do because it's not implemented. I've given up.
- avian 6y ago
  I find it funny how people used to complain about the sheer number of times they had to explain to family members exactly the opposite: "No need to ask. If you can plug it in, then it will work. Computers are fool-proof like that. No, it's not like the jacks on the hi-fi" As in, someone got a new mouse and didn't know where to plug it into their computer, when in fact there was only one DB-9 connector on the computer where it will physically fit and it would be the correct one.
  - temac 6y ago
    I'm not even sure this was strictly true at one point. As soon as PS/2 keyboard vs mouse plugs, you had problems. Plus you had (and still have) various audio jacks on the computer anyway. Back to the mouse even prior to PS/2 you often had COM1 and COM2 and if I remember correctly you actually could not replug the mouse on the other port in a plug-and-plug way. You also could have very weird video cabling in the 3DFX 1 and 2 era. But yes, I agree the USB-C plug mess is probably the worst. It has became worse than what it "wanted" to solve. The only way to make it work as broadly advertised again would be if all plugs supported all protocols (that make sense for a given device) and PD options, etc. on all devices and with common cables, at max bandwidth everywhere, but not only I'm not sure this is technically possible, this would probably be cost prohibitive. And so what is the point? The net number of ports decreases on laptops, and there is no need on most gadget devices (beyond data+PD). The only point is for manufacturers to economize 50 cts and make the new inferior laptops pass as better than the old ones because they use the shinny new USB-C plugs. I would be happy if the price was actually 1/2 of the old models.
  - gregmac 6y ago
    I think this was at its peak when basically every computer had only USB 2.0 ports. You pretty much could plug in anything to anything, so long as it fit. Not to say there were no issues -- USB 1.1 hubs, cable length limits -- but they were so incredibly minor compared to today. USB 3 introduced blue plugs, complicating things slightly but still everything basically worked, and if something was operating slower than expected it was at least obvious by the color. Then 3.1 and USB-C came out, and apparently USB-IF lots its collective mind. Now you have you pay attention to see if your ports, cables and devices are "USB 3.0" or "USB 3.1 gen 1" or "USB 3.2 Gen 1" or "Superspeed" or "Superspeed 5Gbps".. (Btw, trick question: all of those are the same thing).
- medium_burrito 6y ago
  The 737 Max quote "designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" seems appropriate for USB-C too.
- xoa 6y ago
  I feel like this is a temporary state of affairs that falls into the bucket of "regrettable but unavoidable". Over time I think the standard march of mass manufacture, refinement, miniaturization, and so on will result in every single USB-C plug on a general purpose device (like a notebook) doing the max of the standard. They'll all be Thunderbolt 4/USB 4 or whatever, and thus able to do everything. Cables production will also scale up and become cheaper, and at some point every single cable one would typically find will be capable of handling whatever. There aren't any fundamental scaling blockers, like some dependency on rare metals or something. But it's still costly at the start of the refinement cycle, and it's hard to bootstrap without allowing manufacturers to do cheaper cut down feature versions to get the ball rolling. It needs to provide some marginal value in the mean time and real promise, even if it means some higher overhead in the establishment phase. So for someone buying a new device in 2025 or 2030, USB-C may still exist but I think issues with what ports do what will be lessened. We already see devices like Macbook Pros where all the USB-C ports are functional, and while those are on the higher end of pricing they aren't stratospheric enterprise territory either. I suspect it won't take that many hardware generations for that sort of thing to spread downward. The question is if that's worth the immediate trouble. And at least for USB-C, I personally think it'll be worth it. It's a good connector, and the improved capabilities are valuable. We've had USB-A for a long, long time, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to guess that USB-C will stick around similarly. There was demand for something more compact and reversible with other QoL benefits along for the ride, and I think it's worth the upfront cost to get the whole industry onboard something that can converge rather then ending up with various manufacturers going their own routes.
  - frosted-flakes 6y ago
    There will always be some inconsistencies that consumers will need to be aware of. For example, Thundetbolt cables are limited in length, to about 0.5 m for passive cables and 1 m for active cables (and those are very expensive). Meanwhile, a bog-standard charging cable can easily be several metres long. I doubt every cable will become an active Thunderbolt cable; that's simply not realistic or economical.
- tzs 6y ago
  What we need is a reasonably priced dongle that you can plug into an arbitrary USB-C port and it tells you what that port supports.
- legohead 6y ago
  I've had more issues with USB-C connections wearing out than other formats, even micro&mini-usb. My phone barely charges at this point, which is frustrating because it otherwise performs fine. I'm going to have to buy a new phone because of the damn charging port! I was considering how many times I've actually plugged it in. Worst case for me would be 3x/day. At 3 years, that's only ~3300 times. Surely they stress tested the connection more than that before production? Of course, these days I'm plugging it like 20x/day because it falls out or just doesn't work.
  - pinkythepig 6y ago
    my phone had an issue with charging cables falling out. Turns out the port had compacted lint jammed in it. Turned the phone off and used a needle to clean it all out, phone retains cables now like the day it was new.
    - sgtnoodle 6y ago
      This. My phone reports "moisture detected" or oscillates between charging and not charging when there's crud inside the socket. I mechanically scrape it with the tip of a sharp pair of tweezers when it's lint, or I use the tweezers to swab with little pieces of paper towel soaked in isopropyl alcohol when it's something more nefarious. I don't even bother turning my phone off, but it's rated as water resistant and so I am pretty confident that there aren't any voltages present when disconnected. Even on non-waterproof phones, though, any voltage persistently applied to pins on an external connector will result in corrosion over time, so it shouldn't be a problem to just mechanically scrape gently with a dry metal needle.
sbarre 6y ago
I love the comment that says you could make a device that requires you to unplug and plug the other way before it works, no matter what.
- sneak 6y ago
  At least then the insertion effort is O(1): you know in advance it will take two tries. Even that is an upgrade over pre-C USB, in my view.
  - rightbyte 6y ago
    I do prefer mechanical feedback over software feedback.
    - cassianoleal 6y ago
      Like an electrical shock if it doesn't like the orientation?
  - 2rsf 6y ago
    The average tries for USB 2.0/3.0 is bigger than 2, something closer to 3
- TheRealSteel 6y ago
  I believe to properly conform to the USB specification, the device must be tried one way, tried the other way, then tried the first way again before it plugs in properly.
  - dogma1138 6y ago
    You forget the chicken bones and the tears of a Virgin step.
    - fuzzfactor 6y ago
      >“I’ve made a Cursed USB-C 2.0 device” You and everyone else. I knew this was not going to be ideal in the late '90's when USB 1 came out. Radio Shack was still going strong but this was the first PC connector that you could not purchase plugs or jacks for to solder your own. Also no suitable 4-conductor cable. Even though the USB 1 approach was for a 92 foot maximum cable length (since it was only intended for the low-bandwidth webcams at the time) this was rapdily nonpublicized since USB 2 was already in planning, for much faster speed and a 25 foot max cable length, eventually shortened to 16 feet. Well once you got suitable cable, you still had to cut pigtails off of USB cords so you could get the cable ends.
ajb 6y ago
Hah. This made me go looking for a 'warding fingers cross'[1] emoji, but sadly there isn't one. [1] Like this: https://imgflip.com/memetemplate/153127632/Cross-fingers https://imgflip.com/memetemplate/153127632/Cross-fingers
weinzierl 6y ago
Now I want a USB-C thumb drive that has different data on different sides. Like the old 5 1/4" diskette drives where you flipped the disk for double capacity. Using it for retro-gaming would be fun. When the game says "Flip the Disk" you flip the USB drive.
- Theodores 6y ago
  Given that this is the only practical application you have to wonder why we ever had the one way plugs in the first place.
  - gumby 6y ago
    It was to reduce BOM cost. That is such a driver that there were (/are still?) cables without any data lines at all and only power, just to save money. I used them for plugging into public power supplies, but they were never sold to consumers labeled for that purpose.
    - deleted 6y ago
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  - chaorace 6y ago
    Two major reasons, as far as I understand things. Firstly, reversible plugs are harder to make structurally resilient, they only become feasible cost-wise as stronger materials become cheaper and manufacturing grows more efficient. Secondly, reversible plugs are a lot more complex. Compare the 4(ish) pins of USB-A to the 24 pins on USB-C. Not all of them are strictly necessary for parity with USB-A, but you could cut that number in half quite easily if the plug were not reversible! Sure, this complexity impacts manufacturing, but, less obviously, it also pushes that increased complexity onto the USB controller hardware/firmware. Neither of these issues were necessarily dealbreakers, but... for a long time they certainly did conspire to make reversible plugs into a pipedream. I have to imagine that were always bigger problems to solve and fewer resources to work with! We're just now seeing reversible plugs really take off because we've finally crossed that magic threshold where it makes sense to try surmounting those barriers.
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Tade0 6y ago
My Galaxy S8 and 60W USB-C charger appear to work like this - I often have to do a 180° turn for the phone to start charging. They only do that in this combination. Not sure if it's consistent though - I should probably mark one side and check.
- rand49an 6y ago
  My Nokia phone is the same, it's a broken port I think.
  - gpderetta 6y ago
    same for my Motorola. It will only charge one one side. The best part is that if plugged in on the "wrong side". It is great when it runs out of batteries and you have to gamble that you plugged it in correctly.
- ars 6y ago
  Check for dirt in the phone port. Use a slim piece of plastic to clean it.
airhead969 6y ago
I often have to flip old Lightning cables if there is corrosion on one side of the plug contacts. Also, Lightning has a problem with dirt and lint accumulation, so the end of a large paperclip is useful to clean-out the port on the device occasionally.
- unilynx 6y ago
  Frequent problem indeed with dirt from pockets, but I'd recommend a toothpick over something metal.
  - airhead969 6y ago
    I've tried that. Toothpicks break off and don't clean the gunk. Round cylinders are fine because the contacts are flat. There are even keychain metal lightning cleaners that are basically just large paperclip-like ends, and that's what many Apple store employees use. Edit: as long as you're not using a needle-like piece of metal to dig at or bend the contacts, it should be fine.
- londons_explore 6y ago
  USBC can also fail and become unidirectional... I have a bunch of cables here that only work one way round on one or both ends. Now there are 4 combinations to try rather than two (flipping each end of the cable - 2x2 = 4)
IshKebab 6y ago
I've actually used a device that used USB-C but still required you to plug it in a certain way around. It was a Bluetooth protocol analyser. There was an LED next to the socket that only lit up in one orientation.
a3w 6y ago
"This is not available to you" Hm HTTP 451, or JS error?
- knorker 6y ago
  Common twitter error. Reload the page.
danielEM 6y ago
USB, HDMI, Cable ethernet, DisplayPort, PCIe, ... they all use differential signals to transmit data, just different protocols. We could really and truly have just one type of plug to connect everything to everything a long time ago and without proprietary licenses. As much as I like what USB-C offers as much I hate it and other "stupid" standards that duplicate same function just with differnt plugs - transfering data.
- hctaw 6y ago
  Different physical connectors prevents you from frying a device that gets plugged into the wrong plug. We should have different connectors for different data rates and power levels. Don't pass the buck to designers, they'll screw up.
  - danielEM 6y ago
    Usb already offers couple of different data rates and power levels, so wonder why they use just one usb-c connector for all of it? ;) Ok, sarcasm aside. Technicaly you dont need separate plugs for different connection levels and power transmission up to certain powers. Initial data exchange at some base speed and minimum power requirements can provide necesarry information for devices to establish or refuse connection
    - hctaw 6y ago
      The variety of what is "supported" is also why it's taken years for USB-C to see any modicum of use outside mobile phone chargers that required the higher power and data rates. It's still not commonplace. And it's still only useful for low power devices.
- floatboth 6y ago
  But it offers exactly things like allocating some lanes to DisplayPort. The unfortunate thing is that Thunderbolt was created, and instead of a simple way to make PCIe external, we have this Intel-created mess that tunnels PCIe over some cursed "MPLS-like network" or whatever it is. And it was completely Intel-proprietary until recently. At least now the spec is open.
floatboth 6y ago
Google makes "cursed" devices in production :) The Chromebook debug functionality is only accessible in one orientation: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/third_party/hdctools/+/master/docs/ccd.md https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/third_party/hdc... (but that's with a special cable)
- techrat 6y ago
  Can confirm. Suzy Q cable. SparkFun sells one. Had to diagnose a Pixelbook that got bricked on an update that Google was refusing to warranty. Thought the cable was bad before someone in Discord suggested that I flip the plug. Still not sure how I feel about a reversible plug having a specific orientation.
  - fennecfoxen 6y ago
    You feel terrible about it. The question is how terrible.
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creshal 6y ago
We have a bunch of cursed USB-C cables that exhibit this behaviour. So the orientation matters, but only with some cables and only with some devices (that use 2.0)… good luck explaining that to office staff. Sigh.
notacoward 6y ago
I have a 7-in-1 USB-C dongle with this behavior. Some of its ports won't work in its natural orientation - logo on top, rubber feet on bottom - but will if I flip it. I remember being amazed and disgusted by this when I discovered it.
justusthane 6y ago
When I worked help desk, I once found a USB mouse that instantly killed any computer it was plugged into. Instant power off. I also found a laptop power supply that would cause the CPU of whatever machine it was plugged into to run at 100MHz. That was a fun one to troubleshoot.
- gh-throw 6y ago
  10-to-1 that mouse had a really nasty short in it somewhere.
linspace 6y ago
I would love an uncursed bluetooth
diebeforei485 6y ago
Cursed Lightning devices exist, most notably internally.
StavrosK 6y ago
I have devices (two, IIRC) that only charge if they're connected in one orientation and not the other. So frustrating.
NelsonMinar 6y ago
I have this problem in practice plugging my Pixel 5 phone into my car for Android Auto. The cable only works in one orientation. Android Auto is notorious for being very finicky about connections; no one's really figured it out but it seems to work better with shorter cables and of course higher quality cables. I've assumed my particular problem was some quirk of the connector fit, but now I'm wondering if it could be related to the asymmetry in the data pin design.
totetsu 6y ago
I came across this reversible USB A connection searching for a usb power pack with sound for my blind friend. I was curious to how they achieved it. https://accessibility.energrid.us.com/products/energrid-vs150x-power-bank https://accessibility.energrid.us.com/products/energrid-vs15...
noxer 6y ago
>if you encounter problems with your USB-C devices you might want to try to flip the connector. I have a Lumia 950 (one of the first USB-C phones) and a short USB-A to USB-C (or apple) cable/adapter. One orientation does not charge the phone, so hes right it does happen.

Am I reading this right that by shorting the up and down D+ (and D-) line as one is supposed to by the spec, one essentially creates a HF stub? Or doesn't the stub matter for signal integrity / EMI because it's only a couple of mm and fully enclosed by the shield of the plug and the receptacle?

Sebb767 6y ago
The tweet with the spec talks about USB2.0 devices, so it's probably not as sensitive as higher speed 3.0+ device would be (just guessing here)
NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
I think it just means that there's only actually a single differential pair for USB 2 so connecting the two "D+"s from each side of the connector, and the same for the "D-"s, is recommended. This doesn't work for the super-speed differential pairs because they're actually different lanes.

saagarjha 6y ago

Oh, so like a Kanzi cable!

Hnaomyiph 6y ago

I feel like USB-C is cursed enough on its own. The sheer number of times I’ve had to explain to family members why just because the two USB-C ports on a laptop look the same, doesn’t mean they work the same.

sneak 6y ago
This is true of electrical power outlets (15A/20A), HDMI, schrader valves, RJ45 (this one especially!), and many other things in life, and I don't think it's very fair to pick on USB-C in this manner when it does so many other things much better than previous alternatives.
- bellyfullofbac 6y ago
  But USB was supposed to be the unifying connector. Before: "Here in the back of the computer we have PS/2 ports (1 for keyboard and 1 for mouse), a parallel port, serial, 25-pin serial, game port". Introducing USB: "Everything is USB now! Plug anything anywhere!" USB version whatever: "Well the sockets look all the same, but you can only plug your display in here, to charge it you have to connect it here", etc, etc.
- unwind 6y ago
  But the point is that USB was introduced more or less on the promise of not being like that. When USB 1.1 came in the late 90s, it was pretty nice. Lots of different ports and cables went away, and all were replaced by standardized USB ports and cables. You could geek out and learn the difference of upstream (A, host) and downstream (B, device) ports, the various types of B port sizes, and that was it. Later USB 2.0 was introduced and just (bam!) made it all 40 times faster, but it still logically worked pretty much the same. Then USB 3.x came and just blew all that to h-ll, which is frustrating for both old bearded geeks, and* new/non-technical users.
  - mminer237 6y ago
    For consumers, wasn't USB 3.0 just USB 2.0 but a few times faster? USB-C is what is confusing to some people. Replacing micro USB was straightforward enough, but replacing USB-A is a rough process.
    - tsbinz 6y ago
      USB 3 is also what kills your wifi if things aren't properly done (e.g. https://medium.com/ghostbar/your-usb-3-0-hub-is-killing-your-wifi-some-of-them-yes-a3c343dc4000 https://medium.com/ghostbar/your-usb-3-0-hub-is-killing-your... - and it's not only a mac problem), so it's not just 2.0 but faster.
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    I guess? Except that my desk has three USB cords, each with a color-coded label so that I can tell what each one is for. One is seemingly the only one that will charge my e-reader, but only does low speed data transmission so it never really gets used for anything but my e-reader. Another is power only and therefore useful for charging devices without my computer attempting to talk to them. And a third is a proper, modern (ish, I suppose), well-behaved USB 2.0 cable.
airhead969 6y ago
And why didn't it use a water-/corrosion-proof, breakaway magnetic connector?
- gumby 6y ago
  Cost. At least the part that wears out first is on the cable, not the device. That was one of the botches of mini-UCB A
magicalhippo 6y ago
> just because the two USB-C ports on a laptop look the same, doesn’t mean they work the same. This is already a solved problem[1] through color coding. Not sure why they couldn't use that scheme. Maybe combine a few to indicate things like DisplayPort and Thunderbolt capability, could have up to four quadrants for example. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_System_Design_Guide#Color-coding_scheme_for_connectors_and_ports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_System_Design_Guide#Color-c...
- Piskvorrr 6y ago
  Nope. That's a UX fail: "of course they're different, didn't you RTFM and observe the correct color?"
- tenacious_tuna 6y ago
  > this is already a solved problem through color coding Speaking from experience, I don't think most end users are liable to pay enough attention to their ports to notice the color coding. I remember family members being confused by the blue 3.0 ports when those were a thing--now there's also red ones, and different color C ones, and some C ports have the little lightning bolt and some don't, and most users don't know what THAT means. The value-add of USB C was supposedly you didn't have to buy different cables for different purposes now, you could just slap everything on a C port. But of course that's not truly the case, and we're now in a messy soup of standards and capabilities that even to seasoned tech professionals are hard to disentangle, much less for end users. Calling this a solved problem 'cuz they slapped some colors on some of the ports is missing the forest for the trees.
  - yarcob 6y ago
    Does the bolt mean Thunderbolt or power delivery?
    - sgtnoodle 6y ago
      My wife's laptop has three USB-C ports and the laptop charges off all 3, but only one has the bolt. I strongly suspect it means Thunderbolt support, i.e. it's the only port that will work well with a dock.
marcosdumay 6y ago
Between USB2, USB2-Power, and USB3, I haven't got a laptop that I know what USB port does what in a long time... And I still didn't get any with USB-C.
- myself248 6y ago
  To make it worse, there's a Thunderbolt port which is indicated by a little lightning-bolt near it, and a charging port which is indicated by a little lightning bolt near it, and neither of those has anything to do with the Lightning connector. Some USB-C ports have DisplayPort output, so there's a DP near them. Some do Power Delivery, so there's a battery near them. And some are also a power input to the laptop, so there might be other random symbols near them. It's chaos. I just juggle plugs until I get the expected behavior, and sometimes I never do because it's not implemented. I've given up.
avian 6y ago
I find it funny how people used to complain about the sheer number of times they had to explain to family members exactly the opposite: "No need to ask. If you can plug it in, then it will work. Computers are fool-proof like that. No, it's not like the jacks on the hi-fi" As in, someone got a new mouse and didn't know where to plug it into their computer, when in fact there was only one DB-9 connector on the computer where it will physically fit and it would be the correct one.
- temac 6y ago
  I'm not even sure this was strictly true at one point. As soon as PS/2 keyboard vs mouse plugs, you had problems. Plus you had (and still have) various audio jacks on the computer anyway. Back to the mouse even prior to PS/2 you often had COM1 and COM2 and if I remember correctly you actually could not replug the mouse on the other port in a plug-and-plug way. You also could have very weird video cabling in the 3DFX 1 and 2 era. But yes, I agree the USB-C plug mess is probably the worst. It has became worse than what it "wanted" to solve. The only way to make it work as broadly advertised again would be if all plugs supported all protocols (that make sense for a given device) and PD options, etc. on all devices and with common cables, at max bandwidth everywhere, but not only I'm not sure this is technically possible, this would probably be cost prohibitive. And so what is the point? The net number of ports decreases on laptops, and there is no need on most gadget devices (beyond data+PD). The only point is for manufacturers to economize 50 cts and make the new inferior laptops pass as better than the old ones because they use the shinny new USB-C plugs. I would be happy if the price was actually 1/2 of the old models.
- gregmac 6y ago
  I think this was at its peak when basically every computer had only USB 2.0 ports. You pretty much could plug in anything to anything, so long as it fit. Not to say there were no issues -- USB 1.1 hubs, cable length limits -- but they were so incredibly minor compared to today. USB 3 introduced blue plugs, complicating things slightly but still everything basically worked, and if something was operating slower than expected it was at least obvious by the color. Then 3.1 and USB-C came out, and apparently USB-IF lots its collective mind. Now you have you pay attention to see if your ports, cables and devices are "USB 3.0" or "USB 3.1 gen 1" or "USB 3.2 Gen 1" or "Superspeed" or "Superspeed 5Gbps".. (Btw, trick question: all of those are the same thing).
medium_burrito 6y ago
The 737 Max quote "designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" seems appropriate for USB-C too.
xoa 6y ago
I feel like this is a temporary state of affairs that falls into the bucket of "regrettable but unavoidable". Over time I think the standard march of mass manufacture, refinement, miniaturization, and so on will result in every single USB-C plug on a general purpose device (like a notebook) doing the max of the standard. They'll all be Thunderbolt 4/USB 4 or whatever, and thus able to do everything. Cables production will also scale up and become cheaper, and at some point every single cable one would typically find will be capable of handling whatever. There aren't any fundamental scaling blockers, like some dependency on rare metals or something. But it's still costly at the start of the refinement cycle, and it's hard to bootstrap without allowing manufacturers to do cheaper cut down feature versions to get the ball rolling. It needs to provide some marginal value in the mean time and real promise, even if it means some higher overhead in the establishment phase. So for someone buying a new device in 2025 or 2030, USB-C may still exist but I think issues with what ports do what will be lessened. We already see devices like Macbook Pros where all the USB-C ports are functional, and while those are on the higher end of pricing they aren't stratospheric enterprise territory either. I suspect it won't take that many hardware generations for that sort of thing to spread downward. The question is if that's worth the immediate trouble. And at least for USB-C, I personally think it'll be worth it. It's a good connector, and the improved capabilities are valuable. We've had USB-A for a long, long time, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to guess that USB-C will stick around similarly. There was demand for something more compact and reversible with other QoL benefits along for the ride, and I think it's worth the upfront cost to get the whole industry onboard something that can converge rather then ending up with various manufacturers going their own routes.
- frosted-flakes 6y ago
  There will always be some inconsistencies that consumers will need to be aware of. For example, Thundetbolt cables are limited in length, to about 0.5 m for passive cables and 1 m for active cables (and those are very expensive). Meanwhile, a bog-standard charging cable can easily be several metres long. I doubt every cable will become an active Thunderbolt cable; that's simply not realistic or economical.
tzs 6y ago
What we need is a reasonably priced dongle that you can plug into an arbitrary USB-C port and it tells you what that port supports.
legohead 6y ago
I've had more issues with USB-C connections wearing out than other formats, even micro&mini-usb. My phone barely charges at this point, which is frustrating because it otherwise performs fine. I'm going to have to buy a new phone because of the damn charging port! I was considering how many times I've actually plugged it in. Worst case for me would be 3x/day. At 3 years, that's only ~3300 times. Surely they stress tested the connection more than that before production? Of course, these days I'm plugging it like 20x/day because it falls out or just doesn't work.
- pinkythepig 6y ago
  my phone had an issue with charging cables falling out. Turns out the port had compacted lint jammed in it. Turned the phone off and used a needle to clean it all out, phone retains cables now like the day it was new.
  - sgtnoodle 6y ago
    This. My phone reports "moisture detected" or oscillates between charging and not charging when there's crud inside the socket. I mechanically scrape it with the tip of a sharp pair of tweezers when it's lint, or I use the tweezers to swab with little pieces of paper towel soaked in isopropyl alcohol when it's something more nefarious. I don't even bother turning my phone off, but it's rated as water resistant and so I am pretty confident that there aren't any voltages present when disconnected. Even on non-waterproof phones, though, any voltage persistently applied to pins on an external connector will result in corrosion over time, so it shouldn't be a problem to just mechanically scrape gently with a dry metal needle.

sbarre 6y ago

I love the comment that says you could make a device that requires you to unplug and plug the other way before it works, no matter what.

sneak 6y ago
At least then the insertion effort is O(1): you know in advance it will take two tries. Even that is an upgrade over pre-C USB, in my view.
- rightbyte 6y ago
  I do prefer mechanical feedback over software feedback.
  - cassianoleal 6y ago
    Like an electrical shock if it doesn't like the orientation?
- 2rsf 6y ago
  The average tries for USB 2.0/3.0 is bigger than 2, something closer to 3
TheRealSteel 6y ago
I believe to properly conform to the USB specification, the device must be tried one way, tried the other way, then tried the first way again before it plugs in properly.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  You forget the chicken bones and the tears of a Virgin step.
  - fuzzfactor 6y ago
    >“I’ve made a Cursed USB-C 2.0 device” You and everyone else. I knew this was not going to be ideal in the late '90's when USB 1 came out. Radio Shack was still going strong but this was the first PC connector that you could not purchase plugs or jacks for to solder your own. Also no suitable 4-conductor cable. Even though the USB 1 approach was for a 92 foot maximum cable length (since it was only intended for the low-bandwidth webcams at the time) this was rapdily nonpublicized since USB 2 was already in planning, for much faster speed and a 25 foot max cable length, eventually shortened to 16 feet. Well once you got suitable cable, you still had to cut pigtails off of USB cords so you could get the cable ends.

ajb 6y ago

Hah. This made me go looking for a 'warding fingers cross'[1] emoji, but sadly there isn't one. [1] Like this: https://imgflip.com/memetemplate/153127632/Cross-fingers https://imgflip.com/memetemplate/153127632/Cross-fingers

weinzierl 6y ago

Now I want a USB-C thumb drive that has different data on different sides. Like the old 5 1/4" diskette drives where you flipped the disk for double capacity. Using it for retro-gaming would be fun. When the game says "Flip the Disk" you flip the USB drive.

Theodores 6y ago
Given that this is the only practical application you have to wonder why we ever had the one way plugs in the first place.
- gumby 6y ago
  It was to reduce BOM cost. That is such a driver that there were (/are still?) cables without any data lines at all and only power, just to save money. I used them for plugging into public power supplies, but they were never sold to consumers labeled for that purpose.
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- chaorace 6y ago
  Two major reasons, as far as I understand things. Firstly, reversible plugs are harder to make structurally resilient, they only become feasible cost-wise as stronger materials become cheaper and manufacturing grows more efficient. Secondly, reversible plugs are a lot more complex. Compare the 4(ish) pins of USB-A to the 24 pins on USB-C. Not all of them are strictly necessary for parity with USB-A, but you could cut that number in half quite easily if the plug were not reversible! Sure, this complexity impacts manufacturing, but, less obviously, it also pushes that increased complexity onto the USB controller hardware/firmware. Neither of these issues were necessarily dealbreakers, but... for a long time they certainly did conspire to make reversible plugs into a pipedream. I have to imagine that were always bigger problems to solve and fewer resources to work with! We're just now seeing reversible plugs really take off because we've finally crossed that magic threshold where it makes sense to try surmounting those barriers.

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Tade0 6y ago

My Galaxy S8 and 60W USB-C charger appear to work like this - I often have to do a 180° turn for the phone to start charging. They only do that in this combination. Not sure if it's consistent though - I should probably mark one side and check.

rand49an 6y ago
My Nokia phone is the same, it's a broken port I think.
- gpderetta 6y ago
  same for my Motorola. It will only charge one one side. The best part is that if plugged in on the "wrong side". It is great when it runs out of batteries and you have to gamble that you plugged it in correctly.
ars 6y ago
Check for dirt in the phone port. Use a slim piece of plastic to clean it.

airhead969 6y ago

I often have to flip old Lightning cables if there is corrosion on one side of the plug contacts. Also, Lightning has a problem with dirt and lint accumulation, so the end of a large paperclip is useful to clean-out the port on the device occasionally.

unilynx 6y ago
Frequent problem indeed with dirt from pockets, but I'd recommend a toothpick over something metal.
- airhead969 6y ago
  I've tried that. Toothpicks break off and don't clean the gunk. Round cylinders are fine because the contacts are flat. There are even keychain metal lightning cleaners that are basically just large paperclip-like ends, and that's what many Apple store employees use. Edit: as long as you're not using a needle-like piece of metal to dig at or bend the contacts, it should be fine.
londons_explore 6y ago
USBC can also fail and become unidirectional... I have a bunch of cables here that only work one way round on one or both ends. Now there are 4 combinations to try rather than two (flipping each end of the cable - 2x2 = 4)

IshKebab 6y ago

I've actually used a device that used USB-C but still required you to plug it in a certain way around. It was a Bluetooth protocol analyser. There was an LED next to the socket that only lit up in one orientation.

a3w 6y ago

"This is not available to you" Hm HTTP 451, or JS error?

knorker 6y ago
Common twitter error. Reload the page.

danielEM 6y ago

USB, HDMI, Cable ethernet, DisplayPort, PCIe, ... they all use differential signals to transmit data, just different protocols. We could really and truly have just one type of plug to connect everything to everything a long time ago and without proprietary licenses. As much as I like what USB-C offers as much I hate it and other "stupid" standards that duplicate same function just with differnt plugs - transfering data.

hctaw 6y ago
Different physical connectors prevents you from frying a device that gets plugged into the wrong plug. We should have different connectors for different data rates and power levels. Don't pass the buck to designers, they'll screw up.
- danielEM 6y ago
  Usb already offers couple of different data rates and power levels, so wonder why they use just one usb-c connector for all of it? ;) Ok, sarcasm aside. Technicaly you dont need separate plugs for different connection levels and power transmission up to certain powers. Initial data exchange at some base speed and minimum power requirements can provide necesarry information for devices to establish or refuse connection
  - hctaw 6y ago
    The variety of what is "supported" is also why it's taken years for USB-C to see any modicum of use outside mobile phone chargers that required the higher power and data rates. It's still not commonplace. And it's still only useful for low power devices.
floatboth 6y ago
But it offers exactly things like allocating some lanes to DisplayPort. The unfortunate thing is that Thunderbolt was created, and instead of a simple way to make PCIe external, we have this Intel-created mess that tunnels PCIe over some cursed "MPLS-like network" or whatever it is. And it was completely Intel-proprietary until recently. At least now the spec is open.

floatboth 6y ago

Google makes "cursed" devices in production :) The Chromebook debug functionality is only accessible in one orientation: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/third_party/hdctools/+/master/docs/ccd.md https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/third_party/hdc... (but that's with a special cable)

techrat 6y ago
Can confirm. Suzy Q cable. SparkFun sells one. Had to diagnose a Pixelbook that got bricked on an update that Google was refusing to warranty. Thought the cable was bad before someone in Discord suggested that I flip the plug. Still not sure how I feel about a reversible plug having a specific orientation.
- fennecfoxen 6y ago
  You feel terrible about it. The question is how terrible.

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creshal 6y ago

We have a bunch of cursed USB-C cables that exhibit this behaviour. So the orientation matters, but only with some cables and only with some devices (that use 2.0)… good luck explaining that to office staff. Sigh.

notacoward 6y ago

I have a 7-in-1 USB-C dongle with this behavior. Some of its ports won't work in its natural orientation - logo on top, rubber feet on bottom - but will if I flip it. I remember being amazed and disgusted by this when I discovered it.

justusthane 6y ago

When I worked help desk, I once found a USB mouse that instantly killed any computer it was plugged into. Instant power off. I also found a laptop power supply that would cause the CPU of whatever machine it was plugged into to run at 100MHz. That was a fun one to troubleshoot.

gh-throw 6y ago
10-to-1 that mouse had a really nasty short in it somewhere.

linspace 6y ago

I would love an uncursed bluetooth

diebeforei485 6y ago

Cursed Lightning devices exist, most notably internally.

StavrosK 6y ago

I have devices (two, IIRC) that only charge if they're connected in one orientation and not the other. So frustrating.

NelsonMinar 6y ago

I have this problem in practice plugging my Pixel 5 phone into my car for Android Auto. The cable only works in one orientation. Android Auto is notorious for being very finicky about connections; no one's really figured it out but it seems to work better with shorter cables and of course higher quality cables. I've assumed my particular problem was some quirk of the connector fit, but now I'm wondering if it could be related to the asymmetry in the data pin design.

totetsu 6y ago

I came across this reversible USB A connection searching for a usb power pack with sound for my blind friend. I was curious to how they achieved it. https://accessibility.energrid.us.com/products/energrid-vs150x-power-bank https://accessibility.energrid.us.com/products/energrid-vs15...

noxer 6y ago

>if you encounter problems with your USB-C devices you might want to try to flip the connector. I have a Lumia 950 (one of the first USB-C phones) and a short USB-A to USB-C (or apple) cable/adapter. One orientation does not charge the phone, so hes right it does happen.