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I think it's often less about productivity than it is about instilling a sense of allegiance. Certain companies like it when their employees have no life outsid

I think it's often less about productivity than it is about instilling a sense of allegiance. Certain companies like it when their employees have no life outside of work because they are less likely to cause trouble and more likely to do what they're told. Management in these places wants to own your time and wants you close so they can keep an eye on you.

evgen 6y ago
The long hours also serves as a sort of hazing ritual that can increase bonding to a particular world-view. If you are a company like GS you know you can pull in the cream of the crop by dangling huge payouts at the end of the apprenticeship period. The apprentices will eat entire pies filled with shit day in and day out until they can't take it anymore and quit. Those who survive are now much more closely bonded to both their peers and upper-management (who endured the same thing in the past) and are more likely to take the company world-view as axiomatic from that point onward. You see this in finance, medicine, elite military units, and more close to home you see it all over the startup world.
- chii 6y ago
  But the question is whether this sort of hazing produce better outcomes (for the company)? You point out elite military units, and medicine. Both of these fields tend to have highly competent, highly motivated individuals, and thus their work is quite valuable. If it were better to not have such hazing, then that implies that these units are not operating optimally. But then if they aren't, why hasn't a better optimal system replaced it?
  - evgen 6y ago
    I guess I would assume that it produces better outcomes from the company perspective but honestly can't think of a good counter-example to use as a comparison. After enduring the hazing it is much easier to convince you to do things that might be a bit morally questionable (e.g. shifting your personal ethical Overton window) by reminding you in subtle ways of what you endured to reach this point, what it means to others that have endured with you, etc. I would assume that in certain adversarial environments it is better to have a small team that will focus on a goal without question than one in which either the goal or the means to accomplish it are ever up for questioning, but someone with any knowledge of academic research on leadership and team dynamics can probably answer better than I.
    - goatinaboat 6y ago
      it is much easier to convince you to do things that might be a bit morally questionable (e.g. shifting your personal ethical Overton window Same reason that executives like to go to strip clubs together, it creates a sense of “if I go down you go down with me”.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - newsclues 6y ago
    It creates loyalty and trust. Important when doing dangerous or illegal things.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    I recall this being a topic of interest in social sciences in general. My general impression[0] is that hazing rituals are very important in creating and maintaining group cohesion. The rituals evolve towards being tough enough in terms of pain and self-esteem: enough to filter out people with weak desire to join the group[1], and enough to do some lasting - but not debilitating - damage[2], but not enough to be seen as abusive by the group members[3]. The driver of evolution of these rituals is just group survival: very bad ones will self-destruct a group, good ones let the group be more effective and outcompete less effective rivals[4]. Here are some predictions from this view, which I think all pan out: - Groups that survived for a long time have such rituals. They evolve towards less tough/abusive if the group isn't in fierce competition. They may ultimately become painless, effortless, make-believe rubber-stamping, but at that point the group is dying. - When new groups form around some domain, some may go overboard with their rituals - it takes time for groups to self-destruct or be outcompeted. - Groups overlap, and the demands of supergroup may temper the hazing rituals of subgroups. The most obvious example: the laws of your nation will put a ceiling on what kind of hazing can happen in groups that exist under its jurisdiction. -- [0] - Not a social scientist, have no sources to cite, going from memory of all the stuff I read in books and blogs over the last decade of procrastination. [1] - In cases where joining is voluntary - e.g. a fraternity. Contrast that with tribes, where everyone born to in it is expected to go through a coming-of-age ritual. [2] - The group wants its members to contribute fully to its goals, so rituals will not threaten that - unless there's a steady stream of candidates that needs to be filtered anyway, in which case surviving the ritual unscathed becomes a filtering criterion. On the other hand, scars - be it physical or emotional - are encouraged, if they're not compromising performance. Such scars serve as a reminder of the commitment, in-group identifier, and (particularly with scars gained post-hazing) can confer social status in the group. [3] - The goal is to boost group cohesion, so having new members harbor resentment towards the group is counterproductive. [4] - Note that when talking about market players, the "group" here isn't equivalent to a company. A company is a different intersubjective entity, largely independent from a group of people. In a company, people are fungible. A group can form in a company, or across companies, and can easily move from one company to another, retaining its members and rituals. Groups cycle its members too (e.g. people die, or retire from service, or quit the industry), but it's a different lifecycle.
  - heavenlyblue 6y ago
    > But then if they aren't, why hasn't a better optimal system replaced it? Because we’re not living at the limit of infinity and this discussion is there to change this fact
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  You see this in finance, medicine, elite military units And in distinctly non-elite units too: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-56406948 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-56406948 in fact this is probably a result of that unit trying to emulate what they imagine real units do
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  From spending time with medical residents, a good chunk of the "overworking" happens because the environment is completely dysfunctional and unorganized. They are pitted against one another to show their values to their superiors, leading to taking on longer and longer shifts, and an obsession to be the one that ends up being right. Since demand is basically guaranteed (people won't stop getting sick) and money keeps being poured into these underperforming organizations (due to the artificial scarcity of residency spots) there's no incentive to change, better organize and improve the situation. No matter what, the checks keeps coming every months for the organization.
JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> it's often less about productivity than it is about instilling a sense of allegiance Note that the senior people at these firms are usually pulling, while not 80+ hours, at least 60 a week (e.g. 6AM to 6PM Monday through Friday).
- ghaff 6y ago
  A lot of the commentary here is (correctly) on the associate "hazing." But, yes, partners certainly don't just cruise in for a few hours a day either and there's definitely a hierarchy of partners. In my experience, with investment banking there's a fair bit of high-end FIRE with at least some of those who stick it out retiring in their 40s or so.
Frost1x 6y ago
It's also about ekeing out any additional labor because the employer pays a flat rate. It doesn't matter if 20-40 of the hours after 40 hours only gain 10% additional work relative to the 90% done in the first 40 hours. That's still a 10% gain for the business at no cost. Employees are going to cycle out anyways naturally looking for better opportunities so who cares if they get burnt out? Exempt positions shouldn't be an option in any industry, in my opinion. As they become the norm everywhere they become an excuse to abuse labor for whatever reason the employer decides.
- MereInterest 6y ago
  Except that every productivity study shows the exact opposite. For a week or two, you can spend more hours to produce more. On any longer timescale, the extra hours decrease your productivity/hour so much that the total output goes down. It's not just abusive on the part of the employer, but is also just plain stupid. Definitely agree on overtime-exempt positions. The terminology is also really messed up. Normally, being exempt from something is a good thing. Here, "non-exempt" and "exempt" should be referred to as "paid for overtime" and "screwed for overtime".
  - 1123581321 6y ago
    An “up-or-out” pyramid structure doesn’t see as much of that longer-term effect because it creates a selective environment for people who can work longer hours, and because it is overworking a stream of new interns and graduates who don’t stay for as much of the low productivity period as employees would in a traditional organization.
    - MereInterest 6y ago
      How long does it take to get promoted out of the initial hazing? Productivity at 40 hours/week beats productivity at 60 hours/week over any time scale longer than a month. I sincerely doubt that the turnover/promotion rate is only a month long. I do agree that there is a misalignment of incentives. An employer is not financially responsible for the burnout that they induce. If it takes the employee an extra 2-3 months between jobs due to recovering from that burnout, that is a financial hit to the employee on top of the emotional hit, even though they were not responsible for causing the burnout in the first place.

evgen 6y ago

The long hours also serves as a sort of hazing ritual that can increase bonding to a particular world-view. If you are a company like GS you know you can pull in the cream of the crop by dangling huge payouts at the end of the apprenticeship period. The apprentices will eat entire pies filled with shit day in and day out until they can't take it anymore and quit. Those who survive are now much more closely bonded to both their peers and upper-management (who endured the same thing in the past) and are more likely to take the company world-view as axiomatic from that point onward. You see this in finance, medicine, elite military units, and more close to home you see it all over the startup world.

chii 6y ago
But the question is whether this sort of hazing produce better outcomes (for the company)? You point out elite military units, and medicine. Both of these fields tend to have highly competent, highly motivated individuals, and thus their work is quite valuable. If it were better to not have such hazing, then that implies that these units are not operating optimally. But then if they aren't, why hasn't a better optimal system replaced it?
- evgen 6y ago
  I guess I would assume that it produces better outcomes from the company perspective but honestly can't think of a good counter-example to use as a comparison. After enduring the hazing it is much easier to convince you to do things that might be a bit morally questionable (e.g. shifting your personal ethical Overton window) by reminding you in subtle ways of what you endured to reach this point, what it means to others that have endured with you, etc. I would assume that in certain adversarial environments it is better to have a small team that will focus on a goal without question than one in which either the goal or the means to accomplish it are ever up for questioning, but someone with any knowledge of academic research on leadership and team dynamics can probably answer better than I.
  - goatinaboat 6y ago
    it is much easier to convince you to do things that might be a bit morally questionable (e.g. shifting your personal ethical Overton window Same reason that executives like to go to strip clubs together, it creates a sense of “if I go down you go down with me”.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- newsclues 6y ago
  It creates loyalty and trust. Important when doing dangerous or illegal things.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  I recall this being a topic of interest in social sciences in general. My general impression[0] is that hazing rituals are very important in creating and maintaining group cohesion. The rituals evolve towards being tough enough in terms of pain and self-esteem: enough to filter out people with weak desire to join the group[1], and enough to do some lasting - but not debilitating - damage[2], but not enough to be seen as abusive by the group members[3]. The driver of evolution of these rituals is just group survival: very bad ones will self-destruct a group, good ones let the group be more effective and outcompete less effective rivals[4]. Here are some predictions from this view, which I think all pan out: - Groups that survived for a long time have such rituals. They evolve towards less tough/abusive if the group isn't in fierce competition. They may ultimately become painless, effortless, make-believe rubber-stamping, but at that point the group is dying. - When new groups form around some domain, some may go overboard with their rituals - it takes time for groups to self-destruct or be outcompeted. - Groups overlap, and the demands of supergroup may temper the hazing rituals of subgroups. The most obvious example: the laws of your nation will put a ceiling on what kind of hazing can happen in groups that exist under its jurisdiction. -- [0] - Not a social scientist, have no sources to cite, going from memory of all the stuff I read in books and blogs over the last decade of procrastination. [1] - In cases where joining is voluntary - e.g. a fraternity. Contrast that with tribes, where everyone born to in it is expected to go through a coming-of-age ritual. [2] - The group wants its members to contribute fully to its goals, so rituals will not threaten that - unless there's a steady stream of candidates that needs to be filtered anyway, in which case surviving the ritual unscathed becomes a filtering criterion. On the other hand, scars - be it physical or emotional - are encouraged, if they're not compromising performance. Such scars serve as a reminder of the commitment, in-group identifier, and (particularly with scars gained post-hazing) can confer social status in the group. [3] - The goal is to boost group cohesion, so having new members harbor resentment towards the group is counterproductive. [4] - Note that when talking about market players, the "group" here isn't equivalent to a company. A company is a different intersubjective entity, largely independent from a group of people. In a company, people are fungible. A group can form in a company, or across companies, and can easily move from one company to another, retaining its members and rituals. Groups cycle its members too (e.g. people die, or retire from service, or quit the industry), but it's a different lifecycle.
- heavenlyblue 6y ago
  > But then if they aren't, why hasn't a better optimal system replaced it? Because we’re not living at the limit of infinity and this discussion is there to change this fact
goatinaboat 6y ago
You see this in finance, medicine, elite military units And in distinctly non-elite units too: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-56406948 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-56406948 in fact this is probably a result of that unit trying to emulate what they imagine real units do
908B64B197 6y ago
From spending time with medical residents, a good chunk of the "overworking" happens because the environment is completely dysfunctional and unorganized. They are pitted against one another to show their values to their superiors, leading to taking on longer and longer shifts, and an obsession to be the one that ends up being right. Since demand is basically guaranteed (people won't stop getting sick) and money keeps being poured into these underperforming organizations (due to the artificial scarcity of residency spots) there's no incentive to change, better organize and improve the situation. No matter what, the checks keeps coming every months for the organization.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago

> it's often less about productivity than it is about instilling a sense of allegiance Note that the senior people at these firms are usually pulling, while not 80+ hours, at least 60 a week (e.g. 6AM to 6PM Monday through Friday).

ghaff 6y ago
A lot of the commentary here is (correctly) on the associate "hazing." But, yes, partners certainly don't just cruise in for a few hours a day either and there's definitely a hierarchy of partners. In my experience, with investment banking there's a fair bit of high-end FIRE with at least some of those who stick it out retiring in their 40s or so.

Frost1x 6y ago

It's also about ekeing out any additional labor because the employer pays a flat rate. It doesn't matter if 20-40 of the hours after 40 hours only gain 10% additional work relative to the 90% done in the first 40 hours. That's still a 10% gain for the business at no cost. Employees are going to cycle out anyways naturally looking for better opportunities so who cares if they get burnt out? Exempt positions shouldn't be an option in any industry, in my opinion. As they become the norm everywhere they become an excuse to abuse labor for whatever reason the employer decides.

MereInterest 6y ago
Except that every productivity study shows the exact opposite. For a week or two, you can spend more hours to produce more. On any longer timescale, the extra hours decrease your productivity/hour so much that the total output goes down. It's not just abusive on the part of the employer, but is also just plain stupid. Definitely agree on overtime-exempt positions. The terminology is also really messed up. Normally, being exempt from something is a good thing. Here, "non-exempt" and "exempt" should be referred to as "paid for overtime" and "screwed for overtime".
- 1123581321 6y ago
  An “up-or-out” pyramid structure doesn’t see as much of that longer-term effect because it creates a selective environment for people who can work longer hours, and because it is overworking a stream of new interns and graduates who don’t stay for as much of the low productivity period as employees would in a traditional organization.
  - MereInterest 6y ago
    How long does it take to get promoted out of the initial hazing? Productivity at 40 hours/week beats productivity at 60 hours/week over any time scale longer than a month. I sincerely doubt that the turnover/promotion rate is only a month long. I do agree that there is a misalignment of incentives. An employer is not financially responsible for the burnout that they induce. If it takes the employee an extra 2-3 months between jobs due to recovering from that burnout, that is a financial hit to the employee on top of the emotional hit, even though they were not responsible for causing the burnout in the first place.