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I wonder what is the proper way to view an ancient civilization in our modern perspective, because directly comparing ancient societies with even the worst mode

by j7ake 6y ago

I wonder what is the proper way to view an ancient civilization in our modern perspective, because directly comparing ancient societies with even the worst modern society may actually, on net, favor the bad modern society. Humanity seems to have progressively improved in the treatment of the underclass (e.g., slavery, poverty) such that direct comparison of any ancient society using our modern standards will conclude that ancient societies have nothing from which we can apply to our culture. I feel there is some wisdom to be gleaned from ancient societies, but at the same time these societies practiced customs that would be abhorrent to most societies today.

veddox 6y ago
> Humanity seems to have progressively improved in the treatment of the underclass (e.g., slavery, poverty) Yeah, I don't buy that. At least not in this simplified form of the "moral progress narrative". While it is true that many modern societies at least nominally try to treat the underclass well, this is by no means a global undertaking, nor is it always successful. Slavery and poverty are alive and well. Human nature hasn't changed - we still have a phenomenal capacity for ignoring the suffering of others, especially when that suffering is conveniently far away. We have an equally great capacity for actively tolerating, or even directly causing this suffering, when it benefits us. "A society is measured by how it treats its weakest members", but this measure is (if at all) only weakly related with "civilisational progress". Many of the great civilisations of the past were absolutely barbaric, many of the advanced nations of the modern world continue to be - or at times, fall back into such a pattern. In the West, the combination of Christian ethics and Enlightenment ideals seem, on the whole, to have brought localised improvements for the underclass. But there are sufficient areas in which Western countries continue to ignore suffering, and multiple examples of "social moral progress" rapidly degrading into stark, ruthless, violence against the weak.
rayiner 6y ago
The proper way is the way we have been doing: dispassionately and scientifically. Study them the same way we study nature. Maybe marvel at the things that make societies especially effective on their own terms. Avoid moral judgments, in the same way we don’t judge a praying mantis for eating her mates.
- krageon 6y ago
  It isn't more admirable to analyse things while denying part of what makes you human. We should look at Spartans (and everything else), from every angle: Emotional, logical, etc. Denying parts of what we are is why the world is as fucked as it is.
brobdingnagians 6y ago
Likewise, our society practices things which would be abhorrent to most ancient societies. I do think we are doing better than most of them, but how can I know what is my own bias from being in this society?
matkoniecz 6y ago
> directly comparing ancient societies with even the worst modern society may actually, on net, favor the bad modern society. Note that important argument made by author is that even ancient authors - who were fine with slavery - still mentioned what was happening in Sparta as unusually cruel and extreme. And in other societies even slaves had some minimal legal or cultural protection. Spartan society celebrated murdering slaves. From second post in series: "The absence of any taboo – legal or religious – against the killing of helots marks the institution as uncommonly brutal not merely by Greek standards, but by world-historical standards." "Given how very little our sources care for the lives and experiences of any enslaved people, the unanimity of their testimony that life as a helot was awful is nothing short of astounding. This is an institution that shocks the conscience of ancient slaveholders." "Plutarch relates the saying that “in Sparta the free man is more free than anywhere else in the world, and the slave more a slave” (Plut. Lyc. 28.5). He can only be referring to the helots here. Indeed, Plutarch’s statement is telling – the helots were treated poorly by the standards of ancient chattel slavery, which is, I must stress, an incredibly low bar."

by j7ake 6y ago

veddox 6y ago

> Humanity seems to have progressively improved in the treatment of the underclass (e.g., slavery, poverty) Yeah, I don't buy that. At least not in this simplified form of the "moral progress narrative". While it is true that many modern societies at least nominally try to treat the underclass well, this is by no means a global undertaking, nor is it always successful. Slavery and poverty are alive and well. Human nature hasn't changed - we still have a phenomenal capacity for ignoring the suffering of others, especially when that suffering is conveniently far away. We have an equally great capacity for actively tolerating, or even directly causing this suffering, when it benefits us. "A society is measured by how it treats its weakest members", but this measure is (if at all) only weakly related with "civilisational progress". Many of the great civilisations of the past were absolutely barbaric, many of the advanced nations of the modern world continue to be - or at times, fall back into such a pattern. In the West, the combination of Christian ethics and Enlightenment ideals seem, on the whole, to have brought localised improvements for the underclass. But there are sufficient areas in which Western countries continue to ignore suffering, and multiple examples of "social moral progress" rapidly degrading into stark, ruthless, violence against the weak.

rayiner 6y ago

The proper way is the way we have been doing: dispassionately and scientifically. Study them the same way we study nature. Maybe marvel at the things that make societies especially effective on their own terms. Avoid moral judgments, in the same way we don’t judge a praying mantis for eating her mates.

krageon 6y ago
It isn't more admirable to analyse things while denying part of what makes you human. We should look at Spartans (and everything else), from every angle: Emotional, logical, etc. Denying parts of what we are is why the world is as fucked as it is.

brobdingnagians 6y ago

Likewise, our society practices things which would be abhorrent to most ancient societies. I do think we are doing better than most of them, but how can I know what is my own bias from being in this society?

matkoniecz 6y ago

> directly comparing ancient societies with even the worst modern society may actually, on net, favor the bad modern society. Note that important argument made by author is that even ancient authors - who were fine with slavery - still mentioned what was happening in Sparta as unusually cruel and extreme. And in other societies even slaves had some minimal legal or cultural protection. Spartan society celebrated murdering slaves. From second post in series: "The absence of any taboo – legal or religious – against the killing of helots marks the institution as uncommonly brutal not merely by Greek standards, but by world-historical standards." "Given how very little our sources care for the lives and experiences of any enslaved people, the unanimity of their testimony that life as a helot was awful is nothing short of astounding. This is an institution that shocks the conscience of ancient slaveholders." "Plutarch relates the saying that “in Sparta the free man is more free than anywhere else in the world, and the slave more a slave” (Plut. Lyc. 28.5). He can only be referring to the helots here. Indeed, Plutarch’s statement is telling – the helots were treated poorly by the standards of ancient chattel slavery, which is, I must stress, an incredibly low bar."