29 ms·

Electric car that charges itself

146 points by mikecarlton 6y ago

onion2k 6y ago
First to get to market but certainly not the only player in the solar-powered self-charging production car space. There's enough of them that there's a Wikipedia page - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_car https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_car
- Veedrac 6y ago
  Even traditional manufacturers are on it; Hyundai's IONIQ 5 is meant to have a solar option.
- kristopolous 6y ago
  It's such a silly claim to put on their page. They aren't even available yet. Aptera and Lightyear both have earlier projected delivery dates so even if we are saying "stock consumer car, off the lot, no after market" they're still wrong People who know better are like "no it's not" and people who don't will spread it and be told they're wrong. Solar charging solves the fueling problem for commuters in sunny environments, the narrative is compelling enough, no need to so prominently lie. Besides people already don't really trust these boutique car manufacturers with unproven safety track records. It's a terrible first impression
  - bartvk 6y ago
    You say they aren't even available yet. That may have been acceptable, but they have quite a history of not delivering. Production should have started in 2019, and they have accepted money in 2018. It's now 2021 and we're looking at 2023 delivery, with a significant price increase. In the meantime, the specs aren't all that interesting anymore.
    - kristopolous 6y ago
      Yeah, delivering the next gen is the big deal here. Say what you will about next gen EV cars like the three wheeled EM solo, but they're actually shipping and I've even seen two on the street so far. Lightyear isn't even looking to be US street legal at release. I'm excited about all the cool stuff in the works but let's see it happen. It'd be kinda ironic if traditional brands like Škoda or BMW get to these milestones with successful launches first. So much for the thesis of Innovators Dilemma
- AshamedCaptain 6y ago
  Not even first to get in the market... Toyota had several PHEVs with solar roofs that could charge the battery, too. And it was almost completely useless.
turtlebits 6y ago
For the poor efficiency of solar panels, seems like a big gimmick to try to differentiate and spend a ton of R&D on (solar body panels). I'd find it more interesting if you could just plug it directly into a solar array.
- onethought 6y ago
  You can already do this. There are inverter sets that come with EV chargers.
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  I think we're going to see more devices that are designed to deal with solar power directly. Like an air conditioner that will throttle back if there is only 2000W of power available instead of the 6000W it normally draws. An example of something that doesn't work well. Saw a guy that installed a heat pump water heater in his off grid house. In heat pump only mode it drew 500W. Problem he had to work around was it on startup it would flip on it's resistive heaters for a couple of seconds. Which would crowbar his inverter. And if he disconnected them it would throw a fault. A slight design change would make it work seamlessly.
deleted 6y ago
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BrissyCoder 6y ago
This may be a stupid question but given that these cars literally absorb light... do they pose a danger on the roads in terms of visibility to other motorists?
- hervature 6y ago
  What are your thoughts on black cars?
  - keanebean86 6y ago
    Never seen one.
    - senectus1 6y ago
      surely you jest?
      - keanebean86 6y ago
        Oh yeah it's a joke. It was such a perfect setup I couldn't resist. My grandma had a black t-top in the late 90s. Somewhat ironically, considering this comment thread, it was rear ended at a stop light during the day.
- aemreunal 6y ago
  Hah, an interesting question and certainly not stupid at all! A quick Google search [1] suggests that a (standard?) solar panel absorbs ~2/3s of the light, so it probably reflects enough to make out the car on the road. But the question actually becomes valid and important once we discover solar panel material that can absorb even more light (think Vantablack-like absorption). Very good question! [1]: https://news.rpi.edu/luwakkey/2507 https://news.rpi.edu/luwakkey/2507, search for "absorbs 67.4 percent" on the page
  - Ekaros 6y ago
    I wouldn't be worried at that point. Actual black blobs are very rare in nature and we would certainly notice them during periods when there is some light. Now, nights when they are parked is good example when likely good reflectors need to be mandated.
dreamcompiler 6y ago
This idea will never be practical but it also seems it won't die. 69 miles per week of charging. Assuming the car is sitting outdoors all week and the weather is not cloudy. A Tesla can charge more than this in an hour.
- onethought 6y ago
  A Tesla has solar panels? I’m pretty sure this car can be plugged in too. In fact it has bidirectional charging, so a parking lot of these things could (theoretically) be connected into a huge solar system charging all the cars
  - liamkinne 6y ago
    On their Twitter there’s video showing it getting 100W in full sunlight. That’s the equivalent to 0.5m^2 of rooftop solar. It’s just not worth the effort of putting the cells on the car.
    - onethought 6y ago
      So a car park of them would generate many kWs. Why isn’t it “worth” it... turning car parks into solar farms sounds pretty cool to me.
      - bobthepanda 6y ago
        Because they'd barely charge themselves, let alone feed anything back into the grid?
        onethought 6y ago
        True. Much better to just not generate any power so that they don’t charge themselves at all and don’t feed anything to the grid.
        GauntletWizard 6y ago
liamkinne 6y ago
The comparisons that they’re showing on their “Solar Integration” page is disingenuous at best. They state their cells have 20-22% efficiency, comparing them to much older silicon cells with 16% efficiency. The reality is modern affordable cells [1] have the same %22 efficiency that they have. “The polymer coatings of our cells do not splinter” but I bet the cells themselves sure as hell do. Cracks are hard to spot and can render an entire series string of cells useless. Top side body panels I wouldn’t be so worried about, but the doors... really? [1] https://us.sunpower.com/sites/default/files/sp-gen2-solar-cell-ds-en-a4-160-506760e_0.pdf https://us.sunpower.com/sites/default/files/sp-gen2-solar-ce...
Robotbeat 6y ago
I saw a pretty interesting van/RV project which actually had sizable amount of solar panels. About 8kW worth. They unfold and can be manually tilted and tracked to follow the sun roughly in the sky. It’s pretty interesting. That much solar (with 140kWh of battery!) is more than sufficient to allow totally off-grid living and trips to the store. Now THAT would be interesting, if you could get the bugs worked out and mass produce it cheaply. (It’s really hard to find affordable flexible solar panels. Regular solar panels weigh 3 times as much for the same power but cost a third as much in wholesale. Anyway know of cheap flexible solar panels, ie 50¢/Watt or so?) Link to the solar van/RV: https://youtu.be/5uUh23GDW08 https://youtu.be/5uUh23GDW08
ctdonath 6y ago
Tesla Cybertruck may have an option for solar panels as a pickup bed cover, able to produce a few miles of range daily. Not much per dollar normally, but great that in a worst case scenario it can, given some time, harvest enough power to find an outlet.
rini17 6y ago
I would like to have outside solar blind that I can cover front glass with when parking. It would also alleviate heating of the interior somewhat. But it either need to be flexible (and expensive and prone to damage) or mechanically complicated and bulky, so...no dice.
PicassoCTs 6y ago
Could one install unfoldable solar-surfaces, to increase the input are while parked? Its additional weight and motors after all. In theory though, a car could increase the surface it has to the max allowed volume area of the region? In germany that would be 2.55 m * 12m - thats 30 m^2.
- thombat 6y ago
  Would need pretty beefy supports for wind gusts, including coping with gusts during [un]folding
AYBABTME 6y ago
I like the idea, even if it only replenishes a small range over a week. However this marketing site is too loaded with exaggerations (Sweden is central to Europe?) and feels like a giant ad, cryptocurrency-token-like pitch, trying to hype vaporware. Are they trying to IPO next week via a SPAC? Anyways my fluff-meter is triggered. Would love to be reassured otherwise because I love the idea even if it's unlikely to live up to the hype they're presenting.
theonlybutlet 6y ago
https://i.gifer.com/JPxf.gif https://i.gifer.com/JPxf.gif
Geee 6y ago
It makes very little sense to be lugging solar panels around. It's just not worth it. Install them at home and charge. It might make sense if your vehicle is large and mostly stationary in remote locations where electricity is not available. Anyway, I think this product is fake and scam.
- baybal2 6y ago
  > Anyway, I think this product is fake and scam. Indeed. I feel it is now like 1 in 3 EV projects as of late is a pure scam driven by stratospheric Tesla valuation.
  - totalZero 6y ago
    The other 2 of 3 benefit from the torrential inflows of capital, and if one of them produces some clever engineering then perhaps it's a net win overall for society.
    - blablabla123 6y ago
      Exactly that. The situation has reversed completely compared to 10 years ago. From there we have "innovations" like the BMW i3 which seems to be exclusively used by their own car rental company because it's not a feasible product by itself.
    - Rule35 6y ago
      On the other hand, if a bunch of ... less than engineering experts ... run to try to copy Tesla (which is working on a whole other level making custom alloys, etc) they're just going to waste a bunch of money and ruin investor's trust in the market for better ideas. Far better to pick the thing you actually add and do just that. For these people, maybe it's the nicely conformal panel.
    - baybal2 6y ago
      The other 2 of 3 does benefit, but I wouldn't say they are much better other than not being an outright scam. Anything other than stratospheric sales from first year means they end up being dinner for existing manufacturers in low to mid-end. And if they don't beat Tesla in the high-end, means they are dinner for Tesla. Not to say a lion share of money still goes to people with zero automotive experience, or just above that of golf cart makers.
manduz 6y ago
this is borderline scam.
marcorentap 6y ago
Lightyear One is developing a solar car. https://lightyear.one https://lightyear.one
- jack_riminton 6y ago
  https://www.aptera.us/ https://www.aptera.us/ is another
  - khafra 6y ago
    I really wanted to get one of those, around 2008. Sounded pretty cool; but I wasn't sure how long it would take them to get such an unusual design to market.
    - jack_riminton 6y ago
      Yeah so apparently the founders failed to get it off the ground in 2008, went and founded another unrelated company, earned a load of money off it and are returning to the original idea! I think I'm right in saying that they've got a much better plan to mass manufacture now
saagarjha 6y ago
Amusingly, the 2011 Nissan Leaf actually had a solar panel on its roof. It would help charge its internal battery–not the main one, but the 12V auxiliary battery. Trying to actually power the car itself is generally infeasible with solar panels attached to the car.
- theshrike79 6y ago
  The Prius had this as an option too. As did some premium level Audis back in the day. Basically they were mostly used to run the internal fans if the inside temp was higher than outside. I think the PHEV Prius was able to charge a separate battery with solar if AC wasn't needed. It was a handy option, not essential, but a slight comfort on hot days.
- gandalfian 6y ago
  Wasn't the joke that the only purpose of the solar panel was to stop customers asking for one.
Black101 6y ago
> [...] Sono Motors is providing a warranty for the Sion of probably two years or 100,000 kilometers [...]
- web007 6y ago
  This was the reason I stopped reading. I was excited to see something that, for my commute and location, I would rarely need to plug in. Then I saw that for my €25k investment it will "probably" work for 2 years, that's a no.
rcxdude 6y ago
Having worked on a solar car as a student project, solar panels on a car are at best a marketing gimmick. There's definitely not enough area on a car to power a car anyone wants to drive, even under ideal conditions at a reasonable duty cycle, and issues of shading are even worse for a car than a stationary panel. Also solar panels are fragile and encapsulating them so that they are robust enough to be on the exterior of a car costs substantial weight. Putting solar panels on the car is only slightly better than putting them on the road surface. If the car is decent as a plug-in electric car, then it still may be worth getting. If the solar panels are sufficiently non-intrusive they may even be close to neutral in terms of the utility of the car, but they do not improve it.
- namibj 6y ago
  Solar cells, if thinned down, are flexible enough to confirm to most areas of a typical car. They weigh no more than two kg per square meter including some environmental protection.
- totalZero 6y ago
  > If the car is decent as a plug-in electric car, then it still may be worth getting. I agree with this. The net grid draw of EVs would decrease if every EV were equipped with solar panels. It's a way of turning the footprint of the car into a source of energy. Not sure how the manufacturing costs work out, but you don't have to replace 100% of the plug-in aspect to substantially reduce the energy costs.
- kamranjon 6y ago
  There are also flexible CIGS panels which are not fragile and conform well to curved surfaces and are incredibly light weight. I have 960W mounted on my short school bus conversion and am able to run fridge 24/7, water pump, lights, and an induction cook top and have yet to fully drain the two lithium batteries I got. If any community is aware of the advances made in consumer solar recently it's the skoolie/vanlife folks. I think they improve the car not just from a convenience perspective (i rarely drive more than 100 miles a week in the city) but also it helps more of your energy usage come from the sun rather than non-renewable sources you might be indirectly pulling from the wall.
HPsquared 6y ago
It's not really practical as the main energy source, but a small solar panel would be good to keep the battery charged in cases where the car is parked for long periods.
- yellowapple 6y ago
  Which is something that I'm surprised doesn't exist on more ICE vehicles as well. Gone would be the days of dead lead acid batteries and parasitic draws if ICE vehicles would stick some solar panels in the roof and/or hood.
leoedin 6y ago
It's easy to dismiss this as green washing, but there is some value to it for city cars. The amount of electricity generated is never going to be enough to fully power the car, but that's not really the point. If having solar panels on your car roof means you can avoid charging much in summer, that will make owning an electric car for people who live in cities much simpler - and so support adoption. As a back of the envelope calculation, if you covered the ~2.44 m2 roof of a VW ID3 with solar panels you'd probably see somewhere in the region of 244 kWh / year (based on typical UK solar panel generation per year - this would be more in a sunny place). At 4.3 miles/kWh that gives you just over 1000 miles / year of self charged driving. It's true that those same solar panels would be more productive in a static installation. But it's also the case in the west that the biggest cost to solar rollout is installation, not the panels themselves. Putting panels on the roof of a car can be done in a factory, with none of the tricky site-specific work that makes costs balloon. In fact, Hyundai are already planning a solar roof option with their Ioniq 5 (https://interestingengineering.com/hyundai-unveils-charger-on-wheels-ioniq-5-with-solar-panel-roof https://interestingengineering.com/hyundai-unveils-charger-o...). It will be interesting to see if that has any impact for the typical driver.
- kiliantics 6y ago
  In a city, since everything is at most a few miles away, one shouldn't need a car to get around. Just put some trams/electric buses and bike lanes around. There, now you've removed about half the cars in the world.
- baybal2 6y ago
  No, even if you make the half of car surface a solar panel, you would probably not even get a net benefit because of extra weight, and drag from suboptimal hull shape needed to place cells.
  - legacynl 6y ago
    Solar panels nowadays don't necessarily weigh that much. Also improved efficiency means that you can get away with following the exisiting body-shape, even if that means decreased power generation. Also you might get away with having less/smaller/lighter batteries if you're able to generate more power yourself.
cookiengineer 6y ago
A bit of backstory of the company: Initially they were founded in 2016. The founders built their prototype by-hand and themselves, which I find very inspiring. In 2019 they had to do a crowdfunding campaign to raise 50M EUR for research costs so that they can go to mass market production. They had ~13000 signups in that campaign. Before that, most investors wanted a too revenue-focussed investment, and the company wanted to build an affordable mass-market car. They also embrace the vision of car sharing as a more sustainable infrastructure for cities. The CES live presentation (probably why they are popular now) from earlier this year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhlHJ9FA7q0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhlHJ9FA7q0 Personally, I think this is the kind of vision a company like this needs. I mean, we probably can agree that it's first-gen and that it will have a few bugs and quirks, we all know that. But if more companies research on solar and battery technologies, they hopefully will get more efficient so that a concept like this can solve more edge cases. And remember, Tesla didn't build their first-gen cars either; they did it the same and reused parts from Continental, BMW and Lotus among others.
- Rule35 6y ago
  > it's first-gen and that it will have a few bugs and quirks, we all know that. That's not the general complaint. Most people don't think it will ever pay off the cost of the panel/electronics/waste, let alone offer any tangible benefit. It's not the sort of think you can iterate on, the roof is just only so big and the car uses a certain amount of power, neither of which they can usefully change. > crowdfunding campaign to raise 50M EUR for research costs so that they can go to mass market production. They had ~13000 signups in that campaign. Yeah, crowdfunding, where you go to find scientifically and financially "unsophisticated" investors. Solar roadways do really well with this crowd. > Before that, most investors wanted a too revenue-focussed investment, and the company wanted to build an affordable mass-market car. Well, yeah. If I give you money to make a product I want that product to be useful enough to sell for a profit. They should put their time into developing the easy-conforming solar panels and let people put them in actually useful places. (And perhaps someone would have an efficient car and could stick the panel on it, but then they'd know how little power they were going to get and be happy with it, as opposed to your typical greenwashed consumer scammed into "helping" the environment.)
jsmcgd 6y ago
Is there scope for collection IR and UV from the windows? Also can the chassis be made of batteries?
monkin 6y ago
Their designer got to much inspiration from Tesla website, or I’m the only one who see’s that? ;-)
lmilcin 6y ago
I call BS. Any solar cell mounted on a roof of a car is going to be much more expensive and less efficient than a cell that can be mounted on a roof of a house. Want to put a solar cell? Why not put it on your house instead? You can put as much of the cell as you can without the downsides of having it on your car. It will work for you even when you have your car parked in a garage. With inclined roof the cell is going to be much more efficient than a car roof cell that has to be level. Has anyone thought about parking the car in shade or garages? Now you have to park in a sunny place for a small increase in efficiency. Here in eastern/northern Europe, the maximum values are normally unattainable throughout the year (at least here in Europe). And no, the solar on a car is not going to prevent you from having to charge it, you still need to charge it, just a little less so it will not eliminate you having to have some place to charge it and fiddling with cables and chargers.
- Tade0 6y ago
  I see one use case: leaving the car for extended periods of time unplugged, say at an airport parking lot. Last year I had to leave my car unused for three months, after which both the 12V battery and the hybrid battery were completely discharged. Had there been a solar panel on the roof this wouldn't be an issue. Nowadays most of the cost of solar is installation, so I don't think such a panel would be very expensive. The 860W panel on the Prius Plug-In is a €2000 option, so it's around twice the price of a rooftop installation, but they're using 34% efficient, monocrystalline cells, so most of the expense comes from that.
  - eldaisfish 6y ago
    > I see one use case: leaving the car for extended periods of time unplugged, say at an airport parking lot. You're making a big assumption there - that the parking lot is open to the sky which many airport parking lots are not.
    - Tade0 6y ago
      My experience is that most airports use the roof of the parking lot as well, so there's definitely at least one floor's worth of uncovered space. I don't know of any airport that has 100% covered/underground parking spaces.
moolcool 6y ago
Besides all of the other reasons this is a terrible product, it's name is also way too close to that of the defunct Toyota offshoot "Scion".
stevespang 6y ago
Collision Repair Centers are gonna luv this concept $$$$$$$$
CarVac 6y ago
Aptera has a much more viable implementation of solar charging, because the vehicle's vastly higher efficiency means each watt-hour collected goes farther. They estimate a full day of sun can gather 40 miles, meaning even relatively darker climates might get 10 miles per day.
stetrain 6y ago
I think a lot of people here are missing one of the benefits. When you have an EV there are two potential issues with charge. One is actually charging the car to get more miles to drive, which a solar panel (of reasonable size/weight) isn't going to contribute enough to. The other issue is not losing charge when parked for long periods of time if not plugged in. If you don't have home or work charging then a 10 mile per day ambient battery drain is going to contribute a lot to how often you need to charge the car. I think having at least some charging would be a nice peace of mind if you are doing something like parking the car in an airport parking lot for a couple of weeks. As a bonus you could use that energy for things like running the fan to keep the cabin from becoming melting hot in direct sun.
bfirsh 6y ago
When I went travelling a couple of years ago I was trying to figure out if you could travel 100% solar powered. Turns out it’s kind of possible if you cover a huge van with solar panels and have them extend out to make a larger surface area. And, are very patient. (One day of driving, two days of charging, or whatever.) https://solarrolla.com/ https://solarrolla.com/ https://www.routedelsol.com/solar https://www.routedelsol.com/solar
- gandalfian 6y ago
  I enjoyed the solar bicycle.https://www.thesuntrip.com/en/the-most-incredible-solar-bikes/ https://www.thesuntrip.com/en/the-most-incredible-solar-bike... Around the world here I come (in my dreams).
gandalfian 6y ago
Not convinced by this car. But as a general idea a little free air conditioning when parked could be very handy for many. Trickle charging the battery probably extends the life of an electric car and prevents long term problems of neglect
- ianai 6y ago
  It’s at least worth it for the AC of the interior and battery.
syntaxing 6y ago
i think people are underestimating how much energy is required for transportation and how little energy solar panels generate (relatively speaking). A Tesla is about 60 kWh on the low side for 300ish miles. The average American uses 30 kWh for house consumption. Let's say this car is super small, has a super efficient battery pack, and a logic defying solar panel, this car itself CAN SINGLE HANDED power your house. Forget about making cars. I want this shit on my house with these numbers.
sunkenvicar 6y ago
Bidirectional charging is a no brainer. Give me a 120v 20amp outlet and a 240v 50amp outlet. I want access to those electrons!
mastax 6y ago
Based on the comments here this tech is for people who: - don't drive very much - but drive enough to spend tens of thousands on a new car - but can't put a charger at their residence - but can park somewhere that isn't shaded by trees or buildings or clouds or snow Still, as the overall market for electric cars grows that can add up to millions of people. There's also another larger group: - People who don't choose car options based on a fully considered rational utilitarian evaluation of cost/benefit Which brings you up to >90% of car buyers ;). I'd probably pay for it if it's <$4000, it's much more utilitarian than 24" alloy wheels at least.
- coding123 6y ago
  The 8 hours it's parked at work will likely charge the 20 mile round-trip. For some people it will literally never need to be charged or serviced. For other types, like me, I drive about 4 hours a week over 2 trips, but the rest of the time it would just sit at home, probably charging at least half of that drive time. So I would need to plug it in. That being said I'm planning out a 12Kw+ solar for home anyway.
  - bagacrap 6y ago
    Sure, as long as they live near the equator and it's sunny 365 days a year.
    - rbanffy 6y ago
      Consider it'll be charging, even if a little, all the time the car is in the open air at daytime. In shopping mall parking lots there is often some chargers, but more often than not they seem to be occupied. With a car like this, unless you drive a lot, you can park the car anywhere in the parking lot and not think about the charger. My pre-COVID commute was about 28 km if I chose the scenic route with no traffic lights, or 12 if I crossed the city (I usually took mass transit, so I could read instead of drive). My post-COVID commute will probably be much smaller, as we are all going remote with sporadic visits to the office. I can get to the beach or the mountains within 5 km. For my post-COVID needs, this car would almost never need to be plugged (maybe during winter because these latitudes make the days short).
Qwertious 6y ago
I think this has an undervalued benefit: if you run out of charge somehow, the trickle will let you limp to the charging station. Like, EVs going fast take far more power than cars going slow due to wind resistance, so if you're travelling 5KM/hr then you'll take an order of magnitude less power. And if you do run out of power, you only need to get to the nearest wall plug or charger. Obviously, cost makes this a very niche feature currently and generally you shouldn't run out of battery in most situations anyway. That said, this could be a good "better late than never" sort of thing on luxury cars.
Animats 6y ago
Do they have a working vehicle, or is this all renders?
gigel82 6y ago
Solar Freaking Roadways v2 :) This is very idiotic, all calculations presented are inflated by a factor of 10x. There is no practical advantage to having solar panels on a car, except maybe to trickle charge the starter 12V battery (on EV or ICE vehicles).
soheil 6y ago
Isn't there already a car brand called Scion? Sion is too close.
- rendang 6y ago
  If it's German, it's probably pronounced See-on?
  - soheil 6y ago
    Watched the video, it's not.
smattiso 6y ago
I'd buy one and turn it into an RV. That use case makes a ton of sense. Fully integrated solar to power your electrical appliances while stationary.
burlesona 6y ago
That looks awesome! Living with a family in a sunny urban area, and not driving a whole lot (typically 0-4mi per day), I think we could get pretty far with that kind of charge capacity and range. I also love that it seems to be a van but looks a little more rugged and utilitarian compared to the typical soft and cushy look of minivans here in the US. Too bad it seems to be EU only.
emiliobumachar 6y ago
Next up: really bright garage lights.
tengbretson 6y ago
Why don't the cars simply get their power from the solar-freaking-roadways?
justmedep 6y ago
RVs also use solar panels as one of the main sources of energy. But I have learned to avoid those flexible solar panels (that Sonos is seemingly using as well) because they do not last a long time. They break usually long before 10 years are over. Also it should be noted that solar panels lose efficiency the hotter they get. Solar panels that are directly glued on the surface have no ventilation and thus get hot, lose efficiency and the heat also does not help to make them last longer. Of course, properly mounted panels you find on most RVs cause a bit more drag. There are military grade flexible solar panels available that don’t have most of the mentioned side effects but they are like 5x more expensive.
EmoSupportEmu 6y ago
Kind of neat, but I suspect the coating over those flexible cells will degrade like any other clearcoat and eventually cause significant efficiency loss. Especially when drivers are encouraged to just park it out in the sun.

146 points by mikecarlton 6y ago

First to get to market but certainly not the only player in the solar-powered self-charging production car space. There's enough of them that there's a Wikipedia page - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_car https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_car

Veedrac 6y ago
Even traditional manufacturers are on it; Hyundai's IONIQ 5 is meant to have a solar option.
kristopolous 6y ago
It's such a silly claim to put on their page. They aren't even available yet. Aptera and Lightyear both have earlier projected delivery dates so even if we are saying "stock consumer car, off the lot, no after market" they're still wrong People who know better are like "no it's not" and people who don't will spread it and be told they're wrong. Solar charging solves the fueling problem for commuters in sunny environments, the narrative is compelling enough, no need to so prominently lie. Besides people already don't really trust these boutique car manufacturers with unproven safety track records. It's a terrible first impression
- bartvk 6y ago
  You say they aren't even available yet. That may have been acceptable, but they have quite a history of not delivering. Production should have started in 2019, and they have accepted money in 2018. It's now 2021 and we're looking at 2023 delivery, with a significant price increase. In the meantime, the specs aren't all that interesting anymore.
  - kristopolous 6y ago
    Yeah, delivering the next gen is the big deal here. Say what you will about next gen EV cars like the three wheeled EM solo, but they're actually shipping and I've even seen two on the street so far. Lightyear isn't even looking to be US street legal at release. I'm excited about all the cool stuff in the works but let's see it happen. It'd be kinda ironic if traditional brands like Škoda or BMW get to these milestones with successful launches first. So much for the thesis of Innovators Dilemma
AshamedCaptain 6y ago
Not even first to get in the market... Toyota had several PHEVs with solar roofs that could charge the battery, too. And it was almost completely useless.

turtlebits 6y ago

For the poor efficiency of solar panels, seems like a big gimmick to try to differentiate and spend a ton of R&D on (solar body panels). I'd find it more interesting if you could just plug it directly into a solar array.

onethought 6y ago
You can already do this. There are inverter sets that come with EV chargers.
Gibbon1 6y ago
I think we're going to see more devices that are designed to deal with solar power directly. Like an air conditioner that will throttle back if there is only 2000W of power available instead of the 6000W it normally draws. An example of something that doesn't work well. Saw a guy that installed a heat pump water heater in his off grid house. In heat pump only mode it drew 500W. Problem he had to work around was it on startup it would flip on it's resistive heaters for a couple of seconds. Which would crowbar his inverter. And if he disconnected them it would throw a fault. A slight design change would make it work seamlessly.

deleted 6y ago

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BrissyCoder 6y ago

This may be a stupid question but given that these cars literally absorb light... do they pose a danger on the roads in terms of visibility to other motorists?

hervature 6y ago
What are your thoughts on black cars?
- keanebean86 6y ago
  Never seen one.
  - senectus1 6y ago
    surely you jest?
    - keanebean86 6y ago
      Oh yeah it's a joke. It was such a perfect setup I couldn't resist. My grandma had a black t-top in the late 90s. Somewhat ironically, considering this comment thread, it was rear ended at a stop light during the day.
aemreunal 6y ago
Hah, an interesting question and certainly not stupid at all! A quick Google search [1] suggests that a (standard?) solar panel absorbs ~2/3s of the light, so it probably reflects enough to make out the car on the road. But the question actually becomes valid and important once we discover solar panel material that can absorb even more light (think Vantablack-like absorption). Very good question! [1]: https://news.rpi.edu/luwakkey/2507 https://news.rpi.edu/luwakkey/2507, search for "absorbs 67.4 percent" on the page
- Ekaros 6y ago
  I wouldn't be worried at that point. Actual black blobs are very rare in nature and we would certainly notice them during periods when there is some light. Now, nights when they are parked is good example when likely good reflectors need to be mandated.

dreamcompiler 6y ago

This idea will never be practical but it also seems it won't die. 69 miles per week of charging. Assuming the car is sitting outdoors all week and the weather is not cloudy. A Tesla can charge more than this in an hour.

onethought 6y ago
A Tesla has solar panels? I’m pretty sure this car can be plugged in too. In fact it has bidirectional charging, so a parking lot of these things could (theoretically) be connected into a huge solar system charging all the cars
- liamkinne 6y ago
  On their Twitter there’s video showing it getting 100W in full sunlight. That’s the equivalent to 0.5m^2 of rooftop solar. It’s just not worth the effort of putting the cells on the car.
  - onethought 6y ago
    So a car park of them would generate many kWs. Why isn’t it “worth” it... turning car parks into solar farms sounds pretty cool to me.
    - bobthepanda 6y ago
      Because they'd barely charge themselves, let alone feed anything back into the grid?
      - onethought 6y ago
        True. Much better to just not generate any power so that they don’t charge themselves at all and don’t feed anything to the grid.
        GauntletWizard 6y ago

liamkinne 6y ago

The comparisons that they’re showing on their “Solar Integration” page is disingenuous at best. They state their cells have 20-22% efficiency, comparing them to much older silicon cells with 16% efficiency. The reality is modern affordable cells [1] have the same %22 efficiency that they have. “The polymer coatings of our cells do not splinter” but I bet the cells themselves sure as hell do. Cracks are hard to spot and can render an entire series string of cells useless. Top side body panels I wouldn’t be so worried about, but the doors... really? [1] https://us.sunpower.com/sites/default/files/sp-gen2-solar-cell-ds-en-a4-160-506760e_0.pdf https://us.sunpower.com/sites/default/files/sp-gen2-solar-ce...

Robotbeat 6y ago

I saw a pretty interesting van/RV project which actually had sizable amount of solar panels. About 8kW worth. They unfold and can be manually tilted and tracked to follow the sun roughly in the sky. It’s pretty interesting. That much solar (with 140kWh of battery!) is more than sufficient to allow totally off-grid living and trips to the store. Now THAT would be interesting, if you could get the bugs worked out and mass produce it cheaply. (It’s really hard to find affordable flexible solar panels. Regular solar panels weigh 3 times as much for the same power but cost a third as much in wholesale. Anyway know of cheap flexible solar panels, ie 50¢/Watt or so?) Link to the solar van/RV: https://youtu.be/5uUh23GDW08 https://youtu.be/5uUh23GDW08

ctdonath 6y ago

Tesla Cybertruck may have an option for solar panels as a pickup bed cover, able to produce a few miles of range daily. Not much per dollar normally, but great that in a worst case scenario it can, given some time, harvest enough power to find an outlet.

rini17 6y ago

I would like to have outside solar blind that I can cover front glass with when parking. It would also alleviate heating of the interior somewhat. But it either need to be flexible (and expensive and prone to damage) or mechanically complicated and bulky, so...no dice.

PicassoCTs 6y ago

Could one install unfoldable solar-surfaces, to increase the input are while parked? Its additional weight and motors after all. In theory though, a car could increase the surface it has to the max allowed volume area of the region? In germany that would be 2.55 m * 12m - thats 30 m^2.

thombat 6y ago
Would need pretty beefy supports for wind gusts, including coping with gusts during [un]folding

AYBABTME 6y ago

I like the idea, even if it only replenishes a small range over a week. However this marketing site is too loaded with exaggerations (Sweden is central to Europe?) and feels like a giant ad, cryptocurrency-token-like pitch, trying to hype vaporware. Are they trying to IPO next week via a SPAC? Anyways my fluff-meter is triggered. Would love to be reassured otherwise because I love the idea even if it's unlikely to live up to the hype they're presenting.

theonlybutlet 6y ago

https://i.gifer.com/JPxf.gif https://i.gifer.com/JPxf.gif

Geee 6y ago

It makes very little sense to be lugging solar panels around. It's just not worth it. Install them at home and charge. It might make sense if your vehicle is large and mostly stationary in remote locations where electricity is not available. Anyway, I think this product is fake and scam.

baybal2 6y ago
> Anyway, I think this product is fake and scam. Indeed. I feel it is now like 1 in 3 EV projects as of late is a pure scam driven by stratospheric Tesla valuation.
- totalZero 6y ago
  The other 2 of 3 benefit from the torrential inflows of capital, and if one of them produces some clever engineering then perhaps it's a net win overall for society.
  - blablabla123 6y ago
    Exactly that. The situation has reversed completely compared to 10 years ago. From there we have "innovations" like the BMW i3 which seems to be exclusively used by their own car rental company because it's not a feasible product by itself.
  - Rule35 6y ago
    On the other hand, if a bunch of ... less than engineering experts ... run to try to copy Tesla (which is working on a whole other level making custom alloys, etc) they're just going to waste a bunch of money and ruin investor's trust in the market for better ideas. Far better to pick the thing you actually add and do just that. For these people, maybe it's the nicely conformal panel.
  - baybal2 6y ago
    The other 2 of 3 does benefit, but I wouldn't say they are much better other than not being an outright scam. Anything other than stratospheric sales from first year means they end up being dinner for existing manufacturers in low to mid-end. And if they don't beat Tesla in the high-end, means they are dinner for Tesla. Not to say a lion share of money still goes to people with zero automotive experience, or just above that of golf cart makers.

manduz 6y ago

this is borderline scam.

marcorentap 6y ago

Lightyear One is developing a solar car. https://lightyear.one https://lightyear.one

jack_riminton 6y ago
https://www.aptera.us/ https://www.aptera.us/ is another
- khafra 6y ago
  I really wanted to get one of those, around 2008. Sounded pretty cool; but I wasn't sure how long it would take them to get such an unusual design to market.
  - jack_riminton 6y ago
    Yeah so apparently the founders failed to get it off the ground in 2008, went and founded another unrelated company, earned a load of money off it and are returning to the original idea! I think I'm right in saying that they've got a much better plan to mass manufacture now

saagarjha 6y ago

Amusingly, the 2011 Nissan Leaf actually had a solar panel on its roof. It would help charge its internal battery–not the main one, but the 12V auxiliary battery. Trying to actually power the car itself is generally infeasible with solar panels attached to the car.

theshrike79 6y ago
The Prius had this as an option too. As did some premium level Audis back in the day. Basically they were mostly used to run the internal fans if the inside temp was higher than outside. I think the PHEV Prius was able to charge a separate battery with solar if AC wasn't needed. It was a handy option, not essential, but a slight comfort on hot days.
gandalfian 6y ago
Wasn't the joke that the only purpose of the solar panel was to stop customers asking for one.

Black101 6y ago

> [...] Sono Motors is providing a warranty for the Sion of probably two years or 100,000 kilometers [...]

web007 6y ago
This was the reason I stopped reading. I was excited to see something that, for my commute and location, I would rarely need to plug in. Then I saw that for my €25k investment it will "probably" work for 2 years, that's a no.

rcxdude 6y ago

Having worked on a solar car as a student project, solar panels on a car are at best a marketing gimmick. There's definitely not enough area on a car to power a car anyone wants to drive, even under ideal conditions at a reasonable duty cycle, and issues of shading are even worse for a car than a stationary panel. Also solar panels are fragile and encapsulating them so that they are robust enough to be on the exterior of a car costs substantial weight. Putting solar panels on the car is only slightly better than putting them on the road surface. If the car is decent as a plug-in electric car, then it still may be worth getting. If the solar panels are sufficiently non-intrusive they may even be close to neutral in terms of the utility of the car, but they do not improve it.

namibj 6y ago
Solar cells, if thinned down, are flexible enough to confirm to most areas of a typical car. They weigh no more than two kg per square meter including some environmental protection.
totalZero 6y ago
> If the car is decent as a plug-in electric car, then it still may be worth getting. I agree with this. The net grid draw of EVs would decrease if every EV were equipped with solar panels. It's a way of turning the footprint of the car into a source of energy. Not sure how the manufacturing costs work out, but you don't have to replace 100% of the plug-in aspect to substantially reduce the energy costs.
kamranjon 6y ago
There are also flexible CIGS panels which are not fragile and conform well to curved surfaces and are incredibly light weight. I have 960W mounted on my short school bus conversion and am able to run fridge 24/7, water pump, lights, and an induction cook top and have yet to fully drain the two lithium batteries I got. If any community is aware of the advances made in consumer solar recently it's the skoolie/vanlife folks. I think they improve the car not just from a convenience perspective (i rarely drive more than 100 miles a week in the city) but also it helps more of your energy usage come from the sun rather than non-renewable sources you might be indirectly pulling from the wall.

HPsquared 6y ago

It's not really practical as the main energy source, but a small solar panel would be good to keep the battery charged in cases where the car is parked for long periods.

yellowapple 6y ago
Which is something that I'm surprised doesn't exist on more ICE vehicles as well. Gone would be the days of dead lead acid batteries and parasitic draws if ICE vehicles would stick some solar panels in the roof and/or hood.

leoedin 6y ago

It's easy to dismiss this as green washing, but there is some value to it for city cars. The amount of electricity generated is never going to be enough to fully power the car, but that's not really the point. If having solar panels on your car roof means you can avoid charging much in summer, that will make owning an electric car for people who live in cities much simpler - and so support adoption. As a back of the envelope calculation, if you covered the ~2.44 m2 roof of a VW ID3 with solar panels you'd probably see somewhere in the region of 244 kWh / year (based on typical UK solar panel generation per year - this would be more in a sunny place). At 4.3 miles/kWh that gives you just over 1000 miles / year of self charged driving. It's true that those same solar panels would be more productive in a static installation. But it's also the case in the west that the biggest cost to solar rollout is installation, not the panels themselves. Putting panels on the roof of a car can be done in a factory, with none of the tricky site-specific work that makes costs balloon. In fact, Hyundai are already planning a solar roof option with their Ioniq 5 (https://interestingengineering.com/hyundai-unveils-charger-on-wheels-ioniq-5-with-solar-panel-roof https://interestingengineering.com/hyundai-unveils-charger-o...). It will be interesting to see if that has any impact for the typical driver.

kiliantics 6y ago
In a city, since everything is at most a few miles away, one shouldn't need a car to get around. Just put some trams/electric buses and bike lanes around. There, now you've removed about half the cars in the world.
baybal2 6y ago
No, even if you make the half of car surface a solar panel, you would probably not even get a net benefit because of extra weight, and drag from suboptimal hull shape needed to place cells.
- legacynl 6y ago
  Solar panels nowadays don't necessarily weigh that much. Also improved efficiency means that you can get away with following the exisiting body-shape, even if that means decreased power generation. Also you might get away with having less/smaller/lighter batteries if you're able to generate more power yourself.

cookiengineer 6y ago

A bit of backstory of the company: Initially they were founded in 2016. The founders built their prototype by-hand and themselves, which I find very inspiring. In 2019 they had to do a crowdfunding campaign to raise 50M EUR for research costs so that they can go to mass market production. They had ~13000 signups in that campaign. Before that, most investors wanted a too revenue-focussed investment, and the company wanted to build an affordable mass-market car. They also embrace the vision of car sharing as a more sustainable infrastructure for cities. The CES live presentation (probably why they are popular now) from earlier this year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhlHJ9FA7q0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhlHJ9FA7q0 Personally, I think this is the kind of vision a company like this needs. I mean, we probably can agree that it's first-gen and that it will have a few bugs and quirks, we all know that. But if more companies research on solar and battery technologies, they hopefully will get more efficient so that a concept like this can solve more edge cases. And remember, Tesla didn't build their first-gen cars either; they did it the same and reused parts from Continental, BMW and Lotus among others.

Rule35 6y ago
> it's first-gen and that it will have a few bugs and quirks, we all know that. That's not the general complaint. Most people don't think it will ever pay off the cost of the panel/electronics/waste, let alone offer any tangible benefit. It's not the sort of think you can iterate on, the roof is just only so big and the car uses a certain amount of power, neither of which they can usefully change. > crowdfunding campaign to raise 50M EUR for research costs so that they can go to mass market production. They had ~13000 signups in that campaign. Yeah, crowdfunding, where you go to find scientifically and financially "unsophisticated" investors. Solar roadways do really well with this crowd. > Before that, most investors wanted a too revenue-focussed investment, and the company wanted to build an affordable mass-market car. Well, yeah. If I give you money to make a product I want that product to be useful enough to sell for a profit. They should put their time into developing the easy-conforming solar panels and let people put them in actually useful places. (And perhaps someone would have an efficient car and could stick the panel on it, but then they'd know how little power they were going to get and be happy with it, as opposed to your typical greenwashed consumer scammed into "helping" the environment.)

jsmcgd 6y ago

Is there scope for collection IR and UV from the windows? Also can the chassis be made of batteries?

monkin 6y ago

Their designer got to much inspiration from Tesla website, or I’m the only one who see’s that? ;-)

lmilcin 6y ago

I call BS. Any solar cell mounted on a roof of a car is going to be much more expensive and less efficient than a cell that can be mounted on a roof of a house. Want to put a solar cell? Why not put it on your house instead? You can put as much of the cell as you can without the downsides of having it on your car. It will work for you even when you have your car parked in a garage. With inclined roof the cell is going to be much more efficient than a car roof cell that has to be level. Has anyone thought about parking the car in shade or garages? Now you have to park in a sunny place for a small increase in efficiency. Here in eastern/northern Europe, the maximum values are normally unattainable throughout the year (at least here in Europe). And no, the solar on a car is not going to prevent you from having to charge it, you still need to charge it, just a little less so it will not eliminate you having to have some place to charge it and fiddling with cables and chargers.

Tade0 6y ago
I see one use case: leaving the car for extended periods of time unplugged, say at an airport parking lot. Last year I had to leave my car unused for three months, after which both the 12V battery and the hybrid battery were completely discharged. Had there been a solar panel on the roof this wouldn't be an issue. Nowadays most of the cost of solar is installation, so I don't think such a panel would be very expensive. The 860W panel on the Prius Plug-In is a €2000 option, so it's around twice the price of a rooftop installation, but they're using 34% efficient, monocrystalline cells, so most of the expense comes from that.
- eldaisfish 6y ago
  > I see one use case: leaving the car for extended periods of time unplugged, say at an airport parking lot. You're making a big assumption there - that the parking lot is open to the sky which many airport parking lots are not.
  - Tade0 6y ago
    My experience is that most airports use the roof of the parking lot as well, so there's definitely at least one floor's worth of uncovered space. I don't know of any airport that has 100% covered/underground parking spaces.

moolcool 6y ago

Besides all of the other reasons this is a terrible product, it's name is also way too close to that of the defunct Toyota offshoot "Scion".

stevespang 6y ago

Collision Repair Centers are gonna luv this concept $$$$$$$$

CarVac 6y ago

Aptera has a much more viable implementation of solar charging, because the vehicle's vastly higher efficiency means each watt-hour collected goes farther. They estimate a full day of sun can gather 40 miles, meaning even relatively darker climates might get 10 miles per day.

stetrain 6y ago

I think a lot of people here are missing one of the benefits. When you have an EV there are two potential issues with charge. One is actually charging the car to get more miles to drive, which a solar panel (of reasonable size/weight) isn't going to contribute enough to. The other issue is not losing charge when parked for long periods of time if not plugged in. If you don't have home or work charging then a 10 mile per day ambient battery drain is going to contribute a lot to how often you need to charge the car. I think having at least some charging would be a nice peace of mind if you are doing something like parking the car in an airport parking lot for a couple of weeks. As a bonus you could use that energy for things like running the fan to keep the cabin from becoming melting hot in direct sun.

bfirsh 6y ago

When I went travelling a couple of years ago I was trying to figure out if you could travel 100% solar powered. Turns out it’s kind of possible if you cover a huge van with solar panels and have them extend out to make a larger surface area. And, are very patient. (One day of driving, two days of charging, or whatever.) https://solarrolla.com/ https://solarrolla.com/ https://www.routedelsol.com/solar https://www.routedelsol.com/solar

gandalfian 6y ago
I enjoyed the solar bicycle.https://www.thesuntrip.com/en/the-most-incredible-solar-bikes/ https://www.thesuntrip.com/en/the-most-incredible-solar-bike... Around the world here I come (in my dreams).

gandalfian 6y ago

Not convinced by this car. But as a general idea a little free air conditioning when parked could be very handy for many. Trickle charging the battery probably extends the life of an electric car and prevents long term problems of neglect

ianai 6y ago
It’s at least worth it for the AC of the interior and battery.

syntaxing 6y ago

i think people are underestimating how much energy is required for transportation and how little energy solar panels generate (relatively speaking). A Tesla is about 60 kWh on the low side for 300ish miles. The average American uses 30 kWh for house consumption. Let's say this car is super small, has a super efficient battery pack, and a logic defying solar panel, this car itself CAN SINGLE HANDED power your house. Forget about making cars. I want this shit on my house with these numbers.

sunkenvicar 6y ago

Bidirectional charging is a no brainer. Give me a 120v 20amp outlet and a 240v 50amp outlet. I want access to those electrons!

mastax 6y ago

Based on the comments here this tech is for people who: - don't drive very much - but drive enough to spend tens of thousands on a new car - but can't put a charger at their residence - but can park somewhere that isn't shaded by trees or buildings or clouds or snow Still, as the overall market for electric cars grows that can add up to millions of people. There's also another larger group: - People who don't choose car options based on a fully considered rational utilitarian evaluation of cost/benefit Which brings you up to >90% of car buyers ;). I'd probably pay for it if it's <$4000, it's much more utilitarian than 24" alloy wheels at least.

coding123 6y ago
The 8 hours it's parked at work will likely charge the 20 mile round-trip. For some people it will literally never need to be charged or serviced. For other types, like me, I drive about 4 hours a week over 2 trips, but the rest of the time it would just sit at home, probably charging at least half of that drive time. So I would need to plug it in. That being said I'm planning out a 12Kw+ solar for home anyway.
- bagacrap 6y ago
  Sure, as long as they live near the equator and it's sunny 365 days a year.
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    Consider it'll be charging, even if a little, all the time the car is in the open air at daytime. In shopping mall parking lots there is often some chargers, but more often than not they seem to be occupied. With a car like this, unless you drive a lot, you can park the car anywhere in the parking lot and not think about the charger. My pre-COVID commute was about 28 km if I chose the scenic route with no traffic lights, or 12 if I crossed the city (I usually took mass transit, so I could read instead of drive). My post-COVID commute will probably be much smaller, as we are all going remote with sporadic visits to the office. I can get to the beach or the mountains within 5 km. For my post-COVID needs, this car would almost never need to be plugged (maybe during winter because these latitudes make the days short).

Qwertious 6y ago

I think this has an undervalued benefit: if you run out of charge somehow, the trickle will let you limp to the charging station. Like, EVs going fast take far more power than cars going slow due to wind resistance, so if you're travelling 5KM/hr then you'll take an order of magnitude less power. And if you do run out of power, you only need to get to the nearest wall plug or charger. Obviously, cost makes this a very niche feature currently and generally you shouldn't run out of battery in most situations anyway. That said, this could be a good "better late than never" sort of thing on luxury cars.

Animats 6y ago

Do they have a working vehicle, or is this all renders?

gigel82 6y ago

Solar Freaking Roadways v2 :) This is very idiotic, all calculations presented are inflated by a factor of 10x. There is no practical advantage to having solar panels on a car, except maybe to trickle charge the starter 12V battery (on EV or ICE vehicles).

soheil 6y ago

Isn't there already a car brand called Scion? Sion is too close.

rendang 6y ago
If it's German, it's probably pronounced See-on?
- soheil 6y ago
  Watched the video, it's not.

smattiso 6y ago

I'd buy one and turn it into an RV. That use case makes a ton of sense. Fully integrated solar to power your electrical appliances while stationary.

burlesona 6y ago

That looks awesome! Living with a family in a sunny urban area, and not driving a whole lot (typically 0-4mi per day), I think we could get pretty far with that kind of charge capacity and range. I also love that it seems to be a van but looks a little more rugged and utilitarian compared to the typical soft and cushy look of minivans here in the US. Too bad it seems to be EU only.

emiliobumachar 6y ago

Next up: really bright garage lights.

tengbretson 6y ago

Why don't the cars simply get their power from the solar-freaking-roadways?

justmedep 6y ago

RVs also use solar panels as one of the main sources of energy. But I have learned to avoid those flexible solar panels (that Sonos is seemingly using as well) because they do not last a long time. They break usually long before 10 years are over. Also it should be noted that solar panels lose efficiency the hotter they get. Solar panels that are directly glued on the surface have no ventilation and thus get hot, lose efficiency and the heat also does not help to make them last longer. Of course, properly mounted panels you find on most RVs cause a bit more drag. There are military grade flexible solar panels available that don’t have most of the mentioned side effects but they are like 5x more expensive.

EmoSupportEmu 6y ago

Kind of neat, but I suspect the coating over those flexible cells will degrade like any other clearcoat and eventually cause significant efficiency loss. Especially when drivers are encouraged to just park it out in the sun.