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As the senior most developer on my team, I want you to interrupt me as soon as you need help. It is a far better use of everyone's time to get you on the correc

As the senior most developer on my team, I want you to interrupt me as soon as you need help. It is a far better use of everyone's time to get you on the correct track right away. I tell this to every developer on the team, and especially the junior developers. In a sense, since I helped designed and write many of the systems, I view it as my main job to assist other developers so they can do their job to the fullest extent.

bluefirebrand 6y ago
This approach works best if you do in fact course correct people and not just do the job for them. I've definitely seen junior devs get used to hand holding from senior devs, and learn nothing
- mrgalaxy 6y ago
  Actually this is a great clarification yes. You want them to begin thinking about problems and understanding tools so they can eventually do tasks without asking for help.
- SilverRed 6y ago
  One of the things I was advised was to come to the senior devs with a solution already in mind. Then I have though about it already, and they can shoot it down/propose a new plan or agree. The end result is I had learned how to solve it on my own and a senior dev had checked it to make sure it was the right path.
majkinetor 6y ago
Meh... IME, that way you are rising retards. One totally needs to try and experiment on its own before seeking advice. I wouldn't ever like a job like that. Its like baby sitting. Since you assisted and wrote many systems, its better to write good docs for it so juniors can self service.
- brmgb 6y ago
  Having confidence in your ability to do things and trying them is good. Doing pointless work because you were too proud to ask isn't. Juniors more often than not tend to err on the second side. There is a lot of value in being humble and asking. You will probably grow faster if you ask too much than too little. People who keep asking the same things are the real annoyance. Also seniors who resent helping juniors shouldn't be seniors. They shouldn't be there at all actually.
  - majkinetor 6y ago
    You are making this up mate.... who said anything about resenting ? Is this really discussion or some usual millennial shenanigans. Baby sitting should not be part of any serious work. If you do that, better go into nursery and let the real engineers do the job. Failure (in your words a "pointless work") is a part of the process. I guess instant gratification generation cant fathom that. So black and white here - there are worlds between 1 hour and infinity FFS.
    - brmgb 6y ago
      > Baby sitting should not be part of any serious work. If you do that, better go into nursery and let the real engineers do the job. Sorry but so much machismo, so little engineering culture here. > Failure (in your words a "pointless work") is a part of the process. No, failing when everyone knew for good reasons and experience you were going to fail is not part of the process. This is hubris. Anything you do which could have been avoided is a cost that shouldn't be there. It is the opposite of proper engineering. > Baby sitting Providing guidance is not baby sitting. If you can't properly deal with less experienced people including making them confident enough that they don't pester you, you have no business being a senior member of the team because that's what distinguish the job from just being a productive junior member.
      - majkinetor 6y ago
        > No, failing when everyone knew for good reasons and experience you were going to fail is not part of the process. You are making this up again. Who is "everybody" and how they know? To know, you must get involved, the people minds are not projected into mine while I walk around or eat soup. If I get constantly involved in junior level shit (like every claimed hour x N juniors == constantly) , why am I here and how will junior become something else, and how will I progress into better engineer (hint: not by repeating hello world patterns, but buy doing real world "macho" stuff as you say it) ? This even exists in animal world mate, first time rat mothers are too accommodating and their pups are easy pray for predators. > Providing guidance is not baby sitting. I am not against providing guidance, but what you talk about is not that. Sorry, but if you behave that way, you are baby sitter and you are making community around you the kindergarten, which is detrimental to profession.
lumost 6y ago
TBH this is a double edge sword. It's easy to end up creating the illusion of value by helping many devs when they could have just tried N more things. As a curious counterpoint, try taking the opposite approach for a bit and only get involved when it is absolutely apparent that no one else can do the job/guide people through decisions. Have junior folks write down what they are about to do in a design, or what they've tried before to help build documentation, design, and debug muscle. You may find that people are more able to run the show than you give them credit for.
- mrgalaxy 6y ago
  I feel like many in this thread misunderstand me. Our company follows pretty standard practices. Before anything is worked on, everyone has to write in pretty excruciating detail what is being done, from juniors all the way to our marketing department. Everyone works on the documentation including the juniors. 98% of the questions I get are not about the basics, they are very high-level problem solving questions coming from people that just need clarification or 2nd pair of eyes on something. I mean even I need that quite often and I am very grateful for the help.
  - throw14082020 6y ago
    > I want you to interrupt me as soon as you need help. > 98% of the questions I get are not about the basic How do you know your advice is being followed/ is valuable? I don't think that statistic is relevant. I don't think people are misinterpreting what you said. Its either 1. a tautology: because when they need help, they'll ask. 2. It can be misinterpreted: Ask for help whenever something challenging happens.
    - emodendroket 6y ago
      Contrary to popular belief, many junior developers are too shy about asking.
      - dekhn 6y ago
king_panic 6y ago
This.. is a fine answer if asked in the context of an interview.
strulovich 6y ago
Amen to that. Some people seeing this advice may be worried about people coming to them with too simple problems or without trying to work it out themselves first, or other similar issues. That happens, but not that much, from my experience. And when it does, it’s usually with new people. In such cases you will want to explain to them what they could be doing better with this process, and avoid discouraging them from seeking help altogether.
mudlus 6y ago
When and how do _you_ decide when it's a good time to interrupt a dev on your team, though?

bluefirebrand 6y ago

This approach works best if you do in fact course correct people and not just do the job for them. I've definitely seen junior devs get used to hand holding from senior devs, and learn nothing

mrgalaxy 6y ago
Actually this is a great clarification yes. You want them to begin thinking about problems and understanding tools so they can eventually do tasks without asking for help.
SilverRed 6y ago
One of the things I was advised was to come to the senior devs with a solution already in mind. Then I have though about it already, and they can shoot it down/propose a new plan or agree. The end result is I had learned how to solve it on my own and a senior dev had checked it to make sure it was the right path.

majkinetor 6y ago

Meh... IME, that way you are rising retards. One totally needs to try and experiment on its own before seeking advice. I wouldn't ever like a job like that. Its like baby sitting. Since you assisted and wrote many systems, its better to write good docs for it so juniors can self service.

brmgb 6y ago
Having confidence in your ability to do things and trying them is good. Doing pointless work because you were too proud to ask isn't. Juniors more often than not tend to err on the second side. There is a lot of value in being humble and asking. You will probably grow faster if you ask too much than too little. People who keep asking the same things are the real annoyance. Also seniors who resent helping juniors shouldn't be seniors. They shouldn't be there at all actually.
- majkinetor 6y ago
  You are making this up mate.... who said anything about resenting ? Is this really discussion or some usual millennial shenanigans. Baby sitting should not be part of any serious work. If you do that, better go into nursery and let the real engineers do the job. Failure (in your words a "pointless work") is a part of the process. I guess instant gratification generation cant fathom that. So black and white here - there are worlds between 1 hour and infinity FFS.
  - brmgb 6y ago
    > Baby sitting should not be part of any serious work. If you do that, better go into nursery and let the real engineers do the job. Sorry but so much machismo, so little engineering culture here. > Failure (in your words a "pointless work") is a part of the process. No, failing when everyone knew for good reasons and experience you were going to fail is not part of the process. This is hubris. Anything you do which could have been avoided is a cost that shouldn't be there. It is the opposite of proper engineering. > Baby sitting Providing guidance is not baby sitting. If you can't properly deal with less experienced people including making them confident enough that they don't pester you, you have no business being a senior member of the team because that's what distinguish the job from just being a productive junior member.
    - majkinetor 6y ago
      > No, failing when everyone knew for good reasons and experience you were going to fail is not part of the process. You are making this up again. Who is "everybody" and how they know? To know, you must get involved, the people minds are not projected into mine while I walk around or eat soup. If I get constantly involved in junior level shit (like every claimed hour x N juniors == constantly) , why am I here and how will junior become something else, and how will I progress into better engineer (hint: not by repeating hello world patterns, but buy doing real world "macho" stuff as you say it) ? This even exists in animal world mate, first time rat mothers are too accommodating and their pups are easy pray for predators. > Providing guidance is not baby sitting. I am not against providing guidance, but what you talk about is not that. Sorry, but if you behave that way, you are baby sitter and you are making community around you the kindergarten, which is detrimental to profession.

lumost 6y ago

TBH this is a double edge sword. It's easy to end up creating the illusion of value by helping many devs when they could have just tried N more things. As a curious counterpoint, try taking the opposite approach for a bit and only get involved when it is absolutely apparent that no one else can do the job/guide people through decisions. Have junior folks write down what they are about to do in a design, or what they've tried before to help build documentation, design, and debug muscle. You may find that people are more able to run the show than you give them credit for.

mrgalaxy 6y ago
I feel like many in this thread misunderstand me. Our company follows pretty standard practices. Before anything is worked on, everyone has to write in pretty excruciating detail what is being done, from juniors all the way to our marketing department. Everyone works on the documentation including the juniors. 98% of the questions I get are not about the basics, they are very high-level problem solving questions coming from people that just need clarification or 2nd pair of eyes on something. I mean even I need that quite often and I am very grateful for the help.
- throw14082020 6y ago
  > I want you to interrupt me as soon as you need help. > 98% of the questions I get are not about the basic How do you know your advice is being followed/ is valuable? I don't think that statistic is relevant. I don't think people are misinterpreting what you said. Its either 1. a tautology: because when they need help, they'll ask. 2. It can be misinterpreted: Ask for help whenever something challenging happens.
  - emodendroket 6y ago
    Contrary to popular belief, many junior developers are too shy about asking.
    - dekhn 6y ago

king_panic 6y ago

This.. is a fine answer if asked in the context of an interview.

strulovich 6y ago

Amen to that. Some people seeing this advice may be worried about people coming to them with too simple problems or without trying to work it out themselves first, or other similar issues. That happens, but not that much, from my experience. And when it does, it’s usually with new people. In such cases you will want to explain to them what they could be doing better with this process, and avoid discouraging them from seeking help altogether.

mudlus 6y ago

When and how do _you_ decide when it's a good time to interrupt a dev on your team, though?