10 ms·

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 mill

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

high_derivative 6y ago
Same thought, I think this is part of political cover for the failing (in comparison) vaccination effort's in continental Europe. 'See, we were right not to vaccinate this fast' For the downvoters: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/15/evidence-oxford-vaccine-blood-clots-data-causal-links https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/15/eviden...
- mns 6y ago
  If someone would say this about COVID, they would be downvoted into oblivion for spreading unfounded conspiracy theories. It's already 6 countries in the EU that reported issues until now.
  - high_derivative 6y ago
    The difference being that there is no evidence yet to point towards vaccinations causing these, while there is plenty evidence for covid. Further, there is plenty of evidence for the lost lives by NOT vaccinating faster.
  - hef19898 6y ago
    Yeah, and I rightly so if you ask me. AZ seems so to get all the heat in the press. I really wonder why, but as soon as you start looking at the numbers, there never seems to be something to it. First it was efficiany with elderly in the study, were the numbers were totally misunderstood. Then it was overall effectiveness, then prevention of severe cases. The list goes on. In the meanwhile, the press is reporting every single rash people get with AZ. EDIT: Just checked, they found 7 cases of thrombosis in the brain, out of 1.6 million vaccinated people. Well, we'll see how that develops.
    - mns 6y ago
      So we've been in a 5 month lockdown already in Germany, all of it to stop the spread of the virus with huge costs to the country, and now the comment that I replied to is saying that "I think this is part of political cover for the failing". Meaning that Germany and the EU, which have been doing everything that they can to stop this, are now somehow involved in a political cover to get some sort of revenge on the UK/AstraZeneca at the cost of the people that would be affected by COVID?
      - high_derivative 6y ago
        But they did not do everything they can. They did not expedite AZ vaccine approval, they are messing up the rollout, they tried to negotiate prices instead of securing vaccines at all costs. They made a whole theatre about AZ deliveries and almost created an international crisis around Ireland..but no, no political aspect to it, none at all.. I don't think they are trying to get revenge. They are trying to cover for their own failings. By any reasonable means, the vaccine rollout in continental Europe in relation to the wealth and logistics available compared to US/UK is a complete failure.
        detaro 6y ago
        so how does further slowing vaccine progress, making it even less likely they'll meet the adjusted goals and anouncements, "cover for their failings", especially if there is a good chance it'll turn out it was unnecessary? At least right now people's reaction for sure isn't "oh too bad then, not your fault".
        finiteseries 6y ago
        AZ vaccine is flawed => slow rollout isn’t bad after all, maybe even a good thing in the end. Goals and announcements have already been missed, and it turning out to be unnecessary can be muddied, or buried. Assuming this is indeed politics, there are a lot of positives to this type of move in an already shit situation.
      - 6y ago
- lm28469 6y ago
  > We're too slow so we're going to ban half of our vaccine supply Am I missing something, how's that supposed to help ?
drcode 6y ago
A problem with bureaucracies is that they often care deeply if people die from an action they are responsible for, but are fine if there are massive deaths due to inaction.
- yowlingcat 6y ago
  Oof. I think you strike upon a generally accurate point. Thinking about how this applies to all sorts of bureaucracies now (including corporate ones)
- ampdepolymerase 6y ago
  Exhibit A, the FDA when it comes to new drug approvals.
- justapassenger 6y ago
  Because you can very easily destroy public trust medicines if you approve something unsafe, even if in grand scheme of things, it was better for humans. Just look at antivaccination movement, and imagine how many more people would be there if their claims were actually supported by data. Humans aren’t rational.
  - blablabla123 6y ago
    Practically the last half year of Germany's corona policy is influenced by the anti vaccination movement. It's really annoying, on the other hand I think the anti vaxxers seemed to have stopped all major public appearances. So at least one positive thing.
- subltemelt 6y ago
  It's interesting because I feel the opposite as an acute care doctor in the US. If I give a medication, or get a scan, or whatever, and the patient has an adverse reaction, it's the medication/scan's fault. If I don't give the medication, don't get the scan, and something bad happens, it's my fault. At least that's how people see it for now. Leads to a lot of over-treatment and extra unnecessary testing in my opinion, especially around COVID (for example, I frequently see high-dose dexamethasone given for longer than 10 days or given to normoxic patients, despite the recommendation being for 6 mg daily for 10 days, and only for patients requiring oxygen).
Nursie 6y ago
I'm not sure at this point. When it was one suspicious death, countries suspending the vaccine definitely seemed like an overreaction, and unfortunately this particular vaccine has been something of a political football and subject of a lot of noise. But as more blood-clot deaths emerge... you gotta think caution is wise. OTOH yes, we in the UK have administered a lot of this stuff, and you'd think someone would have noticed a serious side effect like this. So far reports from the UK seem to show no greater incidence of blood clot problems than would be expected without the vaccine. Difficult to call, but I hope it's all being investigated thoroughly.
- drcode 6y ago
  > Difficult to call, but I hope it's all being investigated thoroughly. We don't have time for that, we can't wait for some government panel to announce in 2025 "actually the blood clots were no more common than in the general population"
  - Nursie 6y ago
    > We don't have time for that I hope it's being invested thoroughly by the people that know this stuff inside out, from AZ, Oxford and doctors on the ground where this has happened Damn right a government panel is useless here!
  - h3cate 6y ago
    Most countries are pausing rollout for 2 weeks. After over a year of covid 2 weeks won't make a big difference.
    - m4rtink 6y ago
      I'm not so sure about that - vaccination efforts are just finally starting to ramp up, so 2 weeks of vaccinations lost can be hundreds if not millions of people who could have been protected from covid, not to mention the side effects of these people getting infected on the already overloaded hospitals.
    - martinald 6y ago
dcolkitt 6y ago
Well, you see fifty years a few thousand birth defects occurred because one drug was approved too fast. Therefore millions now have to needlessly die while perfectly good vaccines go stale.
- mcintyre1994 6y ago
  > Nearly 60 years ago thalidomide was prescribed to treat morning sickness in pregnant women. What followed was the biggest man-made medical disaster ever, where over 10,000 children were born with a range of severe and debilitating malformations. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26043938/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26043938/ > The thalidomide scandal may have led to 10,000 miscarriages, stillbirths and infant deaths in Britain, according to the former director of the trust that oversees payments to hundreds of people disabled by the drug taken by their pregnant mothers. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/06/thalidomide-caused-up-to-10000-miscarriages-infant-deaths-uk https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/06/thalidomide-... IMO you're playing the effect of that down a bit by saying "a few thousand birth defects occurred".
  - the8472 6y ago
    And yet it's fewer deaths than due to overly cautious vaccine approvals.
    - Arnt 6y ago
      How do you know that before the cautious testing and approval procedure? The EU recently approvied and has bought 200M J&J vaccines, I don't remember numbers of the other vaccines. If that vaccine were about as harmful as thalidomide, about 3000 babies would die during birth, and a considerably larger number would be born without an arm or similar.
      - the8472 6y ago
        Without hindsight we can still see that countries differed in approval timelines by a month even though they should have the same information available at the same time. Which means either one is taking more risks than necessary or another one is wasting time (and thus lives). And that's just approval, then there's the whole issue with the EU taking too long to negotiate lower prices instead of pre-paying for faster production ramp-up.
s_dev 6y ago
It's entirely possible a facility is producing vaccine that isn't up to QA standards i.e. a bad batch. The Irish reasoning for suspending AZ wasn't just because of blood clots but blood clots in the brain which have a completley different severity.
- DrBazza 6y ago
  > In terms of quality, there are also no confirmed issues related to any batch of our vaccine used across Europe, or the rest of the world. https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-centre/press-releases/2021/update-on-the-safety-of-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca.html https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-centre/press-releases/2021...
  - s_dev 6y ago
    Right but since when is "We investigated our data and found no problems" sufficient -- only independent verification will do.
oezi 6y ago
Ratio is 50/50 Biontech/AstraZeneka.
- s_dev 6y ago
  BioNTech partnered with Pfizer.
complex1314 6y ago
In Norway at least, where we have high compliance and relatively few corona deaths, one important point is to keep public trust in the authorities. The worst case scenario would be loss of trust in the vaccine and loss of trust in the health authorities. Then people would not get vaccinated even if the authorities were recommending it. Also the symptoms are bizarre, the deaths and hospitalizations from blod clot have all been young health care workers in good health with onset of symptoms a few days after getting their first shot. They have all had low platelet count which is very unusual with blood clots and complicates treatment immensely because the standard thrombolytic treatment is then not safe to use.
- happyconcepts 6y ago
  Wow. Then we should look more closely at the glymphatic system no?
- jansan 6y ago
  Do I see this correctly that Norway has about 2 COVID-19 deaths per day on average recently? If so the governments is doing the absolutely right thing. Not halting vaccination with AZ would be highly irresponsible.
  - marvin 6y ago
    That is approximately right. Total death toll from Covid is 640 from a population of 5.3 million.
- angry_octet 6y ago
  Norway is one of the few countries where it makes sense to be extra cautious, as they have excellent medical records and strong control over virus transmission. It's absolutely mad for Italy, Austria etc. But this is not a surprise: countries that handle the pandemic well (evidence based rather than populism or dogma) continue to manage the vaccine rollout well, and vice versa.
  - anthonypasq 6y ago
bananaowl 6y ago
According to these reports hosted on gov.uk there are reports of fatalities and reactions. Pfizer: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/966631/COVID-19_mRNA_Pfizer-_BioNTech_Vaccine_Analysis_Print__2_.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... AstraZeneca: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/966183/COVID-19_AstraZeneca_Vaccine_Analysis_Print.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Disclaimer from UK.gov: Part of our monitoring role includes reviewing reports of suspected side effects. Any member of the public or health professional can submit suspected side effects through the Yellow Card scheme. The nature of Yellow Card reporting means that reported events are not always proven side effects. Some events may have happened anyway, regardless of vaccination. This is particularly the case when millions of people are vaccinated, and especially when most vaccines are being given to the most elderly people and people who have underlying illness. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid... Edit: Added disclaimer from UK.gov
- andybak 6y ago
  1 fatal case of Immune thrombocytopenia for AstraZeneca 1 of Thrombocytopenia for Pfizer Slightly different reporting periods but I'm pretty happy with the odds and I'd take either if offered.
  - nerbert 6y ago
    Much better odds than covid anyway.
- stupidcar 6y ago
  An explanation of the above reports, including why they can't be used to make any inference about the safety of the vaccines: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid...
Cu3PO42 6y ago
It can definitely be interpreted as CYA. They are following the recommendation of the Paul-Ehrlich-Institute, a federal regulatory body. Imagine they went against this recommendation and it turns out there is indeed an issue with the vaccine. That would cause a shit storm of epic proportions. This way the "worst" that can happen is that there was a delay. Now people could die during that delay because they weren't vaccinated, but it's much easier to sweep that under the rug as a politician, in my opinion.
sjwest 6y ago
Its unfortunate they felt the need to stop the administration of this vaccine, as this will only further slow down vaccine distribution in Germany/Europe. I think you've got it spot on there - it stinks of politically motivated attack, but I'm not clear how this could benefit Germany's politicians slowing down the administration of the vaccine? Maybe they can use this as an excuse for the poor administration rates??? BTW I literally just had the Astra Zenica vaccine here in UK - I have a sore arm, lets hope I don't get any of the reported side effects!
- Nursie 6y ago
  A bunch of friends of mine have spent a couple of days pretty whacked by it. Tiredness and a few headaches mostly. Make sure to get plenty of water and rest :)
  - Zenst 6y ago
    Get them to look at https://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/ https://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/ and report their side effects. That's the UK system for reporting side effects in medications of any form. Also weekly report of the covid-19 vaccine side effects here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid... Had my jab 3 hours ago, and enjoying a nice honey dew pomelo as I type thinking, fruit just don't get any better than this.
    - Nursie 6y ago
      Interesting, will bring that up next time someone says something. Ta.
    - wdb 6y ago
      I didn't know that existed. Wondering if it also lists the side effects I experienced of medication when hospitalised at a NHS hospital?
    - _Microft 6y ago
      Just because we are at a medical topic and you are mentioning pomelos: they contain a substance (naringin) that can interfere with certain drugs. Just fyi
xgb84j 6y ago
The ethical issue is that the people dying from COVID and the people who might have an adverse reaction from the vaccination are not the same people. If mostly old people die from COVID but the adverse reaction of the vaccine is independent of age, then for very young people the risk of an adverse reaction of the vaccination might outweigh the risk of permanent damage from COVID.
- TheCoelacanth 6y ago
  But if these reactions are a result of the vaccine, it has to be at an extremely low rate of people vaccinated. Even the small rate of death from COVID for young people is going to be higher than that risk.
  - severino 6y ago
    > Even the small rate of death from COVID for young people is going to be higher than that risk. But it doesn't mean that you will surely get COVID if you refuse to get a shot. Also, some people claim the vaccines are not very effective against some variants such as the South African one. So it means you can get vaccinated, suffer some serious side effects, and once you are recovered, get COVID.
    - drran 6y ago
      Can you use numbers for probabilities, then multiply them by population, please? 4000 people died between your message and mine.
- ralfn 6y ago
  Yeah. As someone not in any risk group I will prefer the Pfizer or Moderna one. I'll be happy to get the Janssen one or even the Sputnik, but if the vaccine they offer me is AZ then I will refuse. And not just because of the obviously higher risk associated, but also because it appears not to be effective against the new strains. (Especially the new South Africa strain). Unlike for example the Janssen vaccine (goes by their parent company of Johnson and Johnson in the US) which was actually validated in South Africa or the rna ones which are just a technical masterpiece. Keep in mind that the real shortage of vaccines is production locations right now. And the type of production of the Janssen, AZ and the Sputnik vaccine is all similar. So why even produce more of the worst vaccine in any of these locations.
s9w 6y ago
There hasn't been a single corona death in Germany
leto_ii 6y ago
While I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your idea, couldn't you make the opposite case as well? Namely that since the AstraZeneca vaccine is mostly British, the government of that country has an interest in hiding/downplaying potentially harmful side-effects? As far as I know by now a bunch of European countries have already suspended vaccination with the AstraZeneca vaccine. These include France, Germany, Italy and the Netherlands - not really a politically homogeneous bunch.
- Frypa 6y ago
  This. I've lived in both Germany and UK and from my humble experience with both the government and the health standards, I think it's more likely the UK/AZ are downplaying this. It could be that they are right and the impact is minimal given that millions of people have been vaccinated. But I do believe the german version here more. The tory government can't be trusted.
  - alecco 6y ago
    Are you saying the NHS is complicit in hiding deaths due to vaccines?
    - Frypa 6y ago
      Where did I mention the NHS? I'm referring to the government downplaying the impact of the vaccine. Which could be true, because millions of people got the vaccine and only a few had the clot issue. But I would rather believe the german version on this.
      - DanBC 6y ago
        Why do you believe there's a link to blood-clotting, and not to, say, broken dishwashers? People (especially on HN) like to say "correlation doesn't equal causation", but there isn't even a correlation here. There are not higher rates of blood clots.
    - heavenlyblue 6y ago
fenk85 6y ago
Perhaps you should consider the death rate per million between UK and Germany first? Or compare with Ireland next door to UK, if they had same death rate there be about 70K more people alive in UK today Yet all of that was forgotten in the manufactured in media vaccine nationalism wars
throwaway4good 6y ago
It could also be driven by money. The alternative Pzifer jab is 10-20 times as expensive. That is a lot money, some of which may find its way to work the media and the decision makers.
- throwaway4good 6y ago
  AZ is no-profit for now. I don't think Pfizer is. https://www.ft.com/content/c474f9e1-8807-4e57-9c79-6f4af145b686 https://www.ft.com/content/c474f9e1-8807-4e57-9c79-6f4af145b... AstraZeneca vaccine document shows limit of no-profit pledge Company has right under contract to declare pandemic over by July 2021
dan1234 6y ago
As I understand it, the ratio has been roughly 50/50 and there have been 13 clotting cases with AZ and 15 with Pfizer. Twitter thread with some commentary & sources: https://twitter.com/Martin_Moder/status/1371033872046166025 https://twitter.com/Martin_Moder/status/1371033872046166025
hef19898 6y ago
Well, there is also this: https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/7/22318113/russia-intelligence-fake-news-spread-misinformation-coronavirus-vaccines https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/7/22318113/russia-intelligen...
h3cate 6y ago
The UK has been in lockdown for the last 3 months. If cases are dropping the vaccine is not likely to be the main reason why.
- rleigh 6y ago
  This simply isn't true. When you plot the infection and death rates of the vaccinated vs the unvaccinated population, the rates in the vaccinated group drop like a stone. The effect is highly significant. The vaccination strategy is highly effective and is absolutely a major contributor (if not the primary contributor) to the decline.
calchris42 6y ago
We will at some point have vaccinated the true believers and be left convincing the rest of the population to get their shots. From that perspective, taking action to demonstrate that we are being absolutely rigorous on the safety of the vaccines might be the global optimal in terms of minimizing time to herd immunity. Especially if we keep manufacturing the shots while studying the data. Just a thought with zero data behind it...
cmenge 6y ago
I agree. Something doesn't fit. Probably because some actor is trying to get an advantage? Cui Bono?
stjohnswarts 6y ago
It seems like a dumb move to me. Like you said hundreds (thousands!) are dying daily and they get a few blood clots out of 17 millions doses and they stop completely and panic, even though this stuff has been out for months now.

high_derivative 6y ago

Same thought, I think this is part of political cover for the failing (in comparison) vaccination effort's in continental Europe. 'See, we were right not to vaccinate this fast' For the downvoters: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/15/evidence-oxford-vaccine-blood-clots-data-causal-links https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/15/eviden...

mns 6y ago
If someone would say this about COVID, they would be downvoted into oblivion for spreading unfounded conspiracy theories. It's already 6 countries in the EU that reported issues until now.
- high_derivative 6y ago
  The difference being that there is no evidence yet to point towards vaccinations causing these, while there is plenty evidence for covid. Further, there is plenty of evidence for the lost lives by NOT vaccinating faster.
- hef19898 6y ago
  Yeah, and I rightly so if you ask me. AZ seems so to get all the heat in the press. I really wonder why, but as soon as you start looking at the numbers, there never seems to be something to it. First it was efficiany with elderly in the study, were the numbers were totally misunderstood. Then it was overall effectiveness, then prevention of severe cases. The list goes on. In the meanwhile, the press is reporting every single rash people get with AZ. EDIT: Just checked, they found 7 cases of thrombosis in the brain, out of 1.6 million vaccinated people. Well, we'll see how that develops.
  - mns 6y ago
    So we've been in a 5 month lockdown already in Germany, all of it to stop the spread of the virus with huge costs to the country, and now the comment that I replied to is saying that "I think this is part of political cover for the failing". Meaning that Germany and the EU, which have been doing everything that they can to stop this, are now somehow involved in a political cover to get some sort of revenge on the UK/AstraZeneca at the cost of the people that would be affected by COVID?
    - high_derivative 6y ago
      But they did not do everything they can. They did not expedite AZ vaccine approval, they are messing up the rollout, they tried to negotiate prices instead of securing vaccines at all costs. They made a whole theatre about AZ deliveries and almost created an international crisis around Ireland..but no, no political aspect to it, none at all.. I don't think they are trying to get revenge. They are trying to cover for their own failings. By any reasonable means, the vaccine rollout in continental Europe in relation to the wealth and logistics available compared to US/UK is a complete failure.
      - detaro 6y ago
        so how does further slowing vaccine progress, making it even less likely they'll meet the adjusted goals and anouncements, "cover for their failings", especially if there is a good chance it'll turn out it was unnecessary? At least right now people's reaction for sure isn't "oh too bad then, not your fault".
        finiteseries 6y ago
        AZ vaccine is flawed => slow rollout isn’t bad after all, maybe even a good thing in the end. Goals and announcements have already been missed, and it turning out to be unnecessary can be muddied, or buried. Assuming this is indeed politics, there are a lot of positives to this type of move in an already shit situation.
    - 6y ago
lm28469 6y ago
> We're too slow so we're going to ban half of our vaccine supply Am I missing something, how's that supposed to help ?

drcode 6y ago

A problem with bureaucracies is that they often care deeply if people die from an action they are responsible for, but are fine if there are massive deaths due to inaction.

yowlingcat 6y ago
Oof. I think you strike upon a generally accurate point. Thinking about how this applies to all sorts of bureaucracies now (including corporate ones)
ampdepolymerase 6y ago
Exhibit A, the FDA when it comes to new drug approvals.
justapassenger 6y ago
Because you can very easily destroy public trust medicines if you approve something unsafe, even if in grand scheme of things, it was better for humans. Just look at antivaccination movement, and imagine how many more people would be there if their claims were actually supported by data. Humans aren’t rational.
- blablabla123 6y ago
  Practically the last half year of Germany's corona policy is influenced by the anti vaccination movement. It's really annoying, on the other hand I think the anti vaxxers seemed to have stopped all major public appearances. So at least one positive thing.
subltemelt 6y ago
It's interesting because I feel the opposite as an acute care doctor in the US. If I give a medication, or get a scan, or whatever, and the patient has an adverse reaction, it's the medication/scan's fault. If I don't give the medication, don't get the scan, and something bad happens, it's my fault. At least that's how people see it for now. Leads to a lot of over-treatment and extra unnecessary testing in my opinion, especially around COVID (for example, I frequently see high-dose dexamethasone given for longer than 10 days or given to normoxic patients, despite the recommendation being for 6 mg daily for 10 days, and only for patients requiring oxygen).

Nursie 6y ago

I'm not sure at this point. When it was one suspicious death, countries suspending the vaccine definitely seemed like an overreaction, and unfortunately this particular vaccine has been something of a political football and subject of a lot of noise. But as more blood-clot deaths emerge... you gotta think caution is wise. OTOH yes, we in the UK have administered a lot of this stuff, and you'd think someone would have noticed a serious side effect like this. So far reports from the UK seem to show no greater incidence of blood clot problems than would be expected without the vaccine. Difficult to call, but I hope it's all being investigated thoroughly.

drcode 6y ago
> Difficult to call, but I hope it's all being investigated thoroughly. We don't have time for that, we can't wait for some government panel to announce in 2025 "actually the blood clots were no more common than in the general population"
- Nursie 6y ago
  > We don't have time for that I hope it's being invested thoroughly by the people that know this stuff inside out, from AZ, Oxford and doctors on the ground where this has happened Damn right a government panel is useless here!
- h3cate 6y ago
  Most countries are pausing rollout for 2 weeks. After over a year of covid 2 weeks won't make a big difference.
  - m4rtink 6y ago
    I'm not so sure about that - vaccination efforts are just finally starting to ramp up, so 2 weeks of vaccinations lost can be hundreds if not millions of people who could have been protected from covid, not to mention the side effects of these people getting infected on the already overloaded hospitals.
  - martinald 6y ago

dcolkitt 6y ago

Well, you see fifty years a few thousand birth defects occurred because one drug was approved too fast. Therefore millions now have to needlessly die while perfectly good vaccines go stale.

mcintyre1994 6y ago
> Nearly 60 years ago thalidomide was prescribed to treat morning sickness in pregnant women. What followed was the biggest man-made medical disaster ever, where over 10,000 children were born with a range of severe and debilitating malformations. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26043938/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26043938/ > The thalidomide scandal may have led to 10,000 miscarriages, stillbirths and infant deaths in Britain, according to the former director of the trust that oversees payments to hundreds of people disabled by the drug taken by their pregnant mothers. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/06/thalidomide-caused-up-to-10000-miscarriages-infant-deaths-uk https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/06/thalidomide-... IMO you're playing the effect of that down a bit by saying "a few thousand birth defects occurred".
- the8472 6y ago
  And yet it's fewer deaths than due to overly cautious vaccine approvals.
  - Arnt 6y ago
    How do you know that before the cautious testing and approval procedure? The EU recently approvied and has bought 200M J&J vaccines, I don't remember numbers of the other vaccines. If that vaccine were about as harmful as thalidomide, about 3000 babies would die during birth, and a considerably larger number would be born without an arm or similar.
    - the8472 6y ago
      Without hindsight we can still see that countries differed in approval timelines by a month even though they should have the same information available at the same time. Which means either one is taking more risks than necessary or another one is wasting time (and thus lives). And that's just approval, then there's the whole issue with the EU taking too long to negotiate lower prices instead of pre-paying for faster production ramp-up.

s_dev 6y ago

It's entirely possible a facility is producing vaccine that isn't up to QA standards i.e. a bad batch. The Irish reasoning for suspending AZ wasn't just because of blood clots but blood clots in the brain which have a completley different severity.

DrBazza 6y ago
> In terms of quality, there are also no confirmed issues related to any batch of our vaccine used across Europe, or the rest of the world. https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-centre/press-releases/2021/update-on-the-safety-of-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca.html https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-centre/press-releases/2021...
- s_dev 6y ago
  Right but since when is "We investigated our data and found no problems" sufficient -- only independent verification will do.

oezi 6y ago

Ratio is 50/50 Biontech/AstraZeneka.

s_dev 6y ago
BioNTech partnered with Pfizer.

complex1314 6y ago

In Norway at least, where we have high compliance and relatively few corona deaths, one important point is to keep public trust in the authorities. The worst case scenario would be loss of trust in the vaccine and loss of trust in the health authorities. Then people would not get vaccinated even if the authorities were recommending it. Also the symptoms are bizarre, the deaths and hospitalizations from blod clot have all been young health care workers in good health with onset of symptoms a few days after getting their first shot. They have all had low platelet count which is very unusual with blood clots and complicates treatment immensely because the standard thrombolytic treatment is then not safe to use.

happyconcepts 6y ago
Wow. Then we should look more closely at the glymphatic system no?
jansan 6y ago
Do I see this correctly that Norway has about 2 COVID-19 deaths per day on average recently? If so the governments is doing the absolutely right thing. Not halting vaccination with AZ would be highly irresponsible.
- marvin 6y ago
  That is approximately right. Total death toll from Covid is 640 from a population of 5.3 million.
angry_octet 6y ago
Norway is one of the few countries where it makes sense to be extra cautious, as they have excellent medical records and strong control over virus transmission. It's absolutely mad for Italy, Austria etc. But this is not a surprise: countries that handle the pandemic well (evidence based rather than populism or dogma) continue to manage the vaccine rollout well, and vice versa.
- anthonypasq 6y ago

bananaowl 6y ago

According to these reports hosted on gov.uk there are reports of fatalities and reactions. Pfizer: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/966631/COVID-19_mRNA_Pfizer-_BioNTech_Vaccine_Analysis_Print__2_.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... AstraZeneca: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/966183/COVID-19_AstraZeneca_Vaccine_Analysis_Print.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Disclaimer from UK.gov: Part of our monitoring role includes reviewing reports of suspected side effects. Any member of the public or health professional can submit suspected side effects through the Yellow Card scheme. The nature of Yellow Card reporting means that reported events are not always proven side effects. Some events may have happened anyway, regardless of vaccination. This is particularly the case when millions of people are vaccinated, and especially when most vaccines are being given to the most elderly people and people who have underlying illness. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid... Edit: Added disclaimer from UK.gov

andybak 6y ago
1 fatal case of Immune thrombocytopenia for AstraZeneca 1 of Thrombocytopenia for Pfizer Slightly different reporting periods but I'm pretty happy with the odds and I'd take either if offered.
- nerbert 6y ago
  Much better odds than covid anyway.
stupidcar 6y ago
An explanation of the above reports, including why they can't be used to make any inference about the safety of the vaccines: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid...

Cu3PO42 6y ago

It can definitely be interpreted as CYA. They are following the recommendation of the Paul-Ehrlich-Institute, a federal regulatory body. Imagine they went against this recommendation and it turns out there is indeed an issue with the vaccine. That would cause a shit storm of epic proportions. This way the "worst" that can happen is that there was a delay. Now people could die during that delay because they weren't vaccinated, but it's much easier to sweep that under the rug as a politician, in my opinion.

sjwest 6y ago

Its unfortunate they felt the need to stop the administration of this vaccine, as this will only further slow down vaccine distribution in Germany/Europe. I think you've got it spot on there - it stinks of politically motivated attack, but I'm not clear how this could benefit Germany's politicians slowing down the administration of the vaccine? Maybe they can use this as an excuse for the poor administration rates??? BTW I literally just had the Astra Zenica vaccine here in UK - I have a sore arm, lets hope I don't get any of the reported side effects!

Nursie 6y ago
A bunch of friends of mine have spent a couple of days pretty whacked by it. Tiredness and a few headaches mostly. Make sure to get plenty of water and rest :)
- Zenst 6y ago
  Get them to look at https://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/ https://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/ and report their side effects. That's the UK system for reporting side effects in medications of any form. Also weekly report of the covid-19 vaccine side effects here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid... Had my jab 3 hours ago, and enjoying a nice honey dew pomelo as I type thinking, fruit just don't get any better than this.
  - Nursie 6y ago
    Interesting, will bring that up next time someone says something. Ta.
  - wdb 6y ago
    I didn't know that existed. Wondering if it also lists the side effects I experienced of medication when hospitalised at a NHS hospital?
  - _Microft 6y ago
    Just because we are at a medical topic and you are mentioning pomelos: they contain a substance (naringin) that can interfere with certain drugs. Just fyi

xgb84j 6y ago

The ethical issue is that the people dying from COVID and the people who might have an adverse reaction from the vaccination are not the same people. If mostly old people die from COVID but the adverse reaction of the vaccine is independent of age, then for very young people the risk of an adverse reaction of the vaccination might outweigh the risk of permanent damage from COVID.

TheCoelacanth 6y ago
But if these reactions are a result of the vaccine, it has to be at an extremely low rate of people vaccinated. Even the small rate of death from COVID for young people is going to be higher than that risk.
- severino 6y ago
  > Even the small rate of death from COVID for young people is going to be higher than that risk. But it doesn't mean that you will surely get COVID if you refuse to get a shot. Also, some people claim the vaccines are not very effective against some variants such as the South African one. So it means you can get vaccinated, suffer some serious side effects, and once you are recovered, get COVID.
  - drran 6y ago
    Can you use numbers for probabilities, then multiply them by population, please? 4000 people died between your message and mine.
ralfn 6y ago
Yeah. As someone not in any risk group I will prefer the Pfizer or Moderna one. I'll be happy to get the Janssen one or even the Sputnik, but if the vaccine they offer me is AZ then I will refuse. And not just because of the obviously higher risk associated, but also because it appears not to be effective against the new strains. (Especially the new South Africa strain). Unlike for example the Janssen vaccine (goes by their parent company of Johnson and Johnson in the US) which was actually validated in South Africa or the rna ones which are just a technical masterpiece. Keep in mind that the real shortage of vaccines is production locations right now. And the type of production of the Janssen, AZ and the Sputnik vaccine is all similar. So why even produce more of the worst vaccine in any of these locations.

s9w 6y ago

There hasn't been a single corona death in Germany

leto_ii 6y ago

While I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your idea, couldn't you make the opposite case as well? Namely that since the AstraZeneca vaccine is mostly British, the government of that country has an interest in hiding/downplaying potentially harmful side-effects? As far as I know by now a bunch of European countries have already suspended vaccination with the AstraZeneca vaccine. These include France, Germany, Italy and the Netherlands - not really a politically homogeneous bunch.

Frypa 6y ago
This. I've lived in both Germany and UK and from my humble experience with both the government and the health standards, I think it's more likely the UK/AZ are downplaying this. It could be that they are right and the impact is minimal given that millions of people have been vaccinated. But I do believe the german version here more. The tory government can't be trusted.
- alecco 6y ago
  Are you saying the NHS is complicit in hiding deaths due to vaccines?
  - Frypa 6y ago
    Where did I mention the NHS? I'm referring to the government downplaying the impact of the vaccine. Which could be true, because millions of people got the vaccine and only a few had the clot issue. But I would rather believe the german version on this.
    - DanBC 6y ago
      Why do you believe there's a link to blood-clotting, and not to, say, broken dishwashers? People (especially on HN) like to say "correlation doesn't equal causation", but there isn't even a correlation here. There are not higher rates of blood clots.
  - heavenlyblue 6y ago

fenk85 6y ago

Perhaps you should consider the death rate per million between UK and Germany first? Or compare with Ireland next door to UK, if they had same death rate there be about 70K more people alive in UK today Yet all of that was forgotten in the manufactured in media vaccine nationalism wars

throwaway4good 6y ago

It could also be driven by money. The alternative Pzifer jab is 10-20 times as expensive. That is a lot money, some of which may find its way to work the media and the decision makers.

throwaway4good 6y ago
AZ is no-profit for now. I don't think Pfizer is. https://www.ft.com/content/c474f9e1-8807-4e57-9c79-6f4af145b686 https://www.ft.com/content/c474f9e1-8807-4e57-9c79-6f4af145b... AstraZeneca vaccine document shows limit of no-profit pledge Company has right under contract to declare pandemic over by July 2021

dan1234 6y ago

As I understand it, the ratio has been roughly 50/50 and there have been 13 clotting cases with AZ and 15 with Pfizer. Twitter thread with some commentary & sources: https://twitter.com/Martin_Moder/status/1371033872046166025 https://twitter.com/Martin_Moder/status/1371033872046166025

hef19898 6y ago

Well, there is also this: https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/7/22318113/russia-intelligence-fake-news-spread-misinformation-coronavirus-vaccines https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/7/22318113/russia-intelligen...

h3cate 6y ago

The UK has been in lockdown for the last 3 months. If cases are dropping the vaccine is not likely to be the main reason why.

rleigh 6y ago
This simply isn't true. When you plot the infection and death rates of the vaccinated vs the unvaccinated population, the rates in the vaccinated group drop like a stone. The effect is highly significant. The vaccination strategy is highly effective and is absolutely a major contributor (if not the primary contributor) to the decline.

calchris42 6y ago

We will at some point have vaccinated the true believers and be left convincing the rest of the population to get their shots. From that perspective, taking action to demonstrate that we are being absolutely rigorous on the safety of the vaccines might be the global optimal in terms of minimizing time to herd immunity. Especially if we keep manufacturing the shots while studying the data. Just a thought with zero data behind it...

cmenge 6y ago

I agree. Something doesn't fit. Probably because some actor is trying to get an advantage? Cui Bono?

stjohnswarts 6y ago

It seems like a dumb move to me. Like you said hundreds (thousands!) are dying daily and they get a few blood clots out of 17 millions doses and they stop completely and panic, even though this stuff has been out for months now.