5 ms·

> "I am satisfied with my salary because I finish my responsibilities in 2 to 4 hours, then spend the rest of the "work day" maintaining a green dot on Slack"

> "I am satisfied with my salary because I finish my responsibilities in 2 to 4 hours, then spend the rest of the "work day" maintaining a green dot on Slack" This is precisely why when I started my company I committed to only hiring contract devs for 10-20 hours per week. No meetings. No bullshit. I pay you a high hourly wage, you do as much (often more) work than if you were a salaried 40 hour FTE, and you likely make more money in the process. The model of work and the 40 hour work week is so fundamentally broken I feel like I'm in a perpetual twilight zone state when I talk to people. They think it's normal and okay to have 3+ hours of meetings per day and barely get any work done. I will never understand it. My first 7 years of work life outside of college consisted of THOUSANDS of pointless meetings and months of pretending to be busy. I've promised myself I will never do that shit again, and I will not let my business succumb to that style of work.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
hellisothers 6y ago
One problem with hiring only contractors is they’re in it only for the money. “Well duh!” You say, but they’re not incentivized to do anything beyond beyond what they’re asked to do and will need to be highly managed. They’re not going to improve performance, make long term tech investments, or (the big one) innovate. Because they have no incentive to, they have no skin in the game. This is obviously a generalization and of course this may well work great for some companies, including yours.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  One problem with hiring only contractors is they’re in it only for the money. I don't think that's totally true, it certainly wasn't in my case. I started contracting because I had had enough of the corporate grind. Quite a lot of my peers seemed to have the same attitude.
  - stefanfisk 6y ago
    Having a customer is so much more intuitive to me compared to having a boss.
  - indemnity 6y ago
    I’m a salaried worker and this is my exit strategy. In a year or so, when living situation is secured (mortgage paid off), I’m going contracting. Played the game to put myself in position to do this, but absolutely weary of it.
    - jamiepenney 6y ago
      I did it and it's worked out pretty well. If you've ditched your major debts then you'd be in an even better position to manage the ups-and-downs of contracting, so I say go for it!
  - Nursie 6y ago
    > I had had enough of the corporate grind "Personal Business Commitments" "Performance Reviews" "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?" "Be sure to share stuff about X new project on your social media!" "Submit your vacation request" Yes, this. All of this. I will deliver you technical solutions to the best of my ability, and I will do it as well as I can, making sure things are documented, complete and easy to understand for longer term maintainers, using common tech stacks where possible. I will not corporate pole-climb or waste my life on company admin, nor pretend I believe in your mission.
- mathgladiator 6y ago
  This is also a feature since contractors can be told upfront what to do in deliverables and the medium for deliverables. I plan on using contractors in the future. I look forward to not having to inspire or align people and just tell people "this is what I want". Their skin in the game is their reputation for repeat work.
  - ryanSrich 6y ago
    > "I look forward to not having to inspire or align people and just tell people "this is what I want"." What I like about contractors is that good ones will give you suggestions and recommendations for improvement, but they won't make it their life's eternal mission to throw your entire project off track by campaigning for their solution.
    - Can_Not 6y ago
      I had a contractor do literally that.
- ryanSrich 6y ago
  > "but they’re not incentivized to do anything beyond beyond what they’re asked to do and will need to be highly managed" What skin in the game does an FTE have? Aside from maintaining benefits, which personally I think is preposterous to tie to full-time employment anyway. What else is there? Stock? Contractors are eligible for stock. Even so, I don't need anyone to do anything beyond what they've been hired to do. Why would I need someone to go above and beyond? I just need smart, competent workers.
- zemvpferreira 6y ago
  I work a lot with contractors in a different industry (construction/real estate) and I can't say this is true. Even mercenaries want to take pride in a job well done, and if you build a long-term project with them, they'll want to see it succeed. Being in it for the money does not have to mean not caring about what you're working on.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    Also, referrals are worth a lot of money in construction. I’ll pay extra if I’m not gambling in a random contractor.
- balfirevic 6y ago
  > One problem with hiring only contractors is they’re in it only for the money. What do you believe employees are in it for?
  - 1123581321 6y ago
    The context of this conversation is full-time salaried employees who give more than they financially get, so personal satisfaction, influencing others' behavior, or prestige at the company are some potential answers to your question.
    - tobasq 6y ago
      A lot of (most?) tech industry workers change jobs every 2-3 years and develop no particular attachment to or long-term plans for remaining at a company.
    - balfirevic 6y ago
      Thanks for the answer. Having had experience with both employee and contractor colleagues (and having been both) I'd say the only one that might not apply (but also could, depending on circumstances) to contractors is prestige at the company.
- Nursie 6y ago
  "they’re not incentivized to do anything beyond beyond what they’re asked to do and will need to be highly managed." I actually find that quite offensive. Myself and the other contractors I know are professionals, winning work through reputation and delivering results. That's why we get paid well. We require less management and always try to deliver above expectations. We have a professional, business to business relationship with our clients, where many employees seem to consider their employer almost a surrogate parent. Employees have no more skin in the game, in fact I'd say less - if I don't deliver I get no more work.
  - hellisothers 6y ago
    That is fair and I apologize for the characterization, it’s a generalization not meant to apply to everybody. I have been on both ”teams” as engineer and manager as well and either way it’s something you have to take into account as you work on or manage the people.
  - tcbawo 6y ago
    In my experience, being a salaried employee doesn't really give you skin in the game at all. It's often illusory, as owning a sliver of equity or profit sharing translates to practically no upside or downside. Salaried employees and contracts are equally likely (or unlikely) to be invested in the success of the company. Misusing contractors or mismanaging salaried employees is a failure of management, and ultimately a failure of ownership. Garbage at the top, garbage at the bottom.
- kjjjjjjjjjjjjjj 6y ago
  I am w-2 and my salary is in the top <2% of salaries in America and I literally only do my job for money, and I only care about money. The better I do, the more money I can make.
- m463 6y ago
  Having been a contractor for quite some time, I was in it for the work and I was happy. I usually worked in the middle of the bell curve part of the project and was exempted from all the silly meetings.
- bradknowles 6y ago
  You may think that’s the way it’s supposed to work for contractors, but in every single job I’ve ever had as a contractor, I always tried very hard to work as if I was a salaried employee — like I had skin in the game. It’s just part of who I am, and I can’t really change that. Either way, I am trying to take home a certain amount of money, sure. And make enough to cover my insurance needs, yes. And as a contractor, I was always sensitive to those clients who wanted to make sure I never billed more than 40 hours a week, regardless of how many hours of work I actually did. Maybe that’s not how contractors are supposed to do things, but that’s a core part of my personality, and not something I can change — or would want to. Of course, I’ve never been an Amazon warehouse worker, or a driver for Uber or Lyft, so for them I might act differently. But as an IT consultant many times over the past 30+ years, this has been the way I have worked.
- lancesells 6y ago
  I'm a consultant / contractor. I never think about it as "in it only for the money". I try to provide value as much as possible.
- mcv 6y ago
  My ownership over the projects I worked on has gone up enormously since I became a freelancer/contractor. I'm not here to merely put in the hours, I'm here to deliver the best product I can. And I tend to stay on a project until I'm sure I can leave without it collapsing. My incentive is to make my client happy so they may hire me again, to get a successful project on my resume, and to be able to point future clients to this client if they want to know what I can do for them.
kyriakos 6y ago
This is a very valid point. In my workplace we have contractors and FTE engineers all paid by monthly salary. The contractors are by far more efficient coders. But it makes sense, they attend only standups and they waste no time in HR and corporate rituals,
- Aeolun 6y ago
  Lol, yeah. You get to skip so many meetings as a contractor.
tra3 6y ago
How do you avoid meetings with a distributed part time team? Any hints or best practices? Working, part time, with a remote team and seem to have 3 hours of meetings. How do you do it?
- withinboredom 6y ago
  We're remote and have a one hour meeting every three weeks; because we believe it's important to have a high bandwidth conversation to make sure we're all on the same page. Beyond that, we communicate mostly on GitHub issues, Slack (for realtime issues, goofing off, etc), and P2 for designing things that need more threading/nuance. We're so distributed (literally around the world) that our one hour meeting is guaranteed to inconvenience someone. When it's my turn, our meeting is at 11pm local time. I usually join with a beer. This meeting is usually a retrospective and just going through what issues we're planning to prioritize for the next few weeks.
  - tra3 6y ago
    How long has the team been assembled for and how do you bring new people on? Is your team mostly tech people? Are there any business folks involved?
    - withinboredom 6y ago
      We've been a proper team for almost two years now, we recently brought on a new developer last year. Onboarding is a whole thing as there are many, many systems involved in our project. We do hop on 1:1 video calls as needed to discuss things or get help debugging, which also can end up being a social call just as much as working together. We're a very technical team, so we don't have any business specialists on the teams.
news_to_me 6y ago
This is also why I started freelancing and limit myself to ~20hr weeks. I actually feel just as productive as I did working 8hr days salaried, since I have much better mental health with the extra free time. The only real downside is finding clients to agree to that limit, but so far it hasn't been too much of a problem.
- mattharney 6y ago
  And as someone who hires contractors, 20 hours can be positive for your client. Why? Lowers weekly management / feedback / “business decisions” needed to enable your work.
fukmbas 6y ago
Take your gig economy elsewhere bro

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

hellisothers 6y ago

One problem with hiring only contractors is they’re in it only for the money. “Well duh!” You say, but they’re not incentivized to do anything beyond beyond what they’re asked to do and will need to be highly managed. They’re not going to improve performance, make long term tech investments, or (the big one) innovate. Because they have no incentive to, they have no skin in the game. This is obviously a generalization and of course this may well work great for some companies, including yours.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
One problem with hiring only contractors is they’re in it only for the money. I don't think that's totally true, it certainly wasn't in my case. I started contracting because I had had enough of the corporate grind. Quite a lot of my peers seemed to have the same attitude.
- stefanfisk 6y ago
  Having a customer is so much more intuitive to me compared to having a boss.
- indemnity 6y ago
  I’m a salaried worker and this is my exit strategy. In a year or so, when living situation is secured (mortgage paid off), I’m going contracting. Played the game to put myself in position to do this, but absolutely weary of it.
  - jamiepenney 6y ago
    I did it and it's worked out pretty well. If you've ditched your major debts then you'd be in an even better position to manage the ups-and-downs of contracting, so I say go for it!
- Nursie 6y ago
  > I had had enough of the corporate grind "Personal Business Commitments" "Performance Reviews" "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?" "Be sure to share stuff about X new project on your social media!" "Submit your vacation request" Yes, this. All of this. I will deliver you technical solutions to the best of my ability, and I will do it as well as I can, making sure things are documented, complete and easy to understand for longer term maintainers, using common tech stacks where possible. I will not corporate pole-climb or waste my life on company admin, nor pretend I believe in your mission.
mathgladiator 6y ago
This is also a feature since contractors can be told upfront what to do in deliverables and the medium for deliverables. I plan on using contractors in the future. I look forward to not having to inspire or align people and just tell people "this is what I want". Their skin in the game is their reputation for repeat work.
- ryanSrich 6y ago
  > "I look forward to not having to inspire or align people and just tell people "this is what I want"." What I like about contractors is that good ones will give you suggestions and recommendations for improvement, but they won't make it their life's eternal mission to throw your entire project off track by campaigning for their solution.
  - Can_Not 6y ago
    I had a contractor do literally that.
ryanSrich 6y ago
> "but they’re not incentivized to do anything beyond beyond what they’re asked to do and will need to be highly managed" What skin in the game does an FTE have? Aside from maintaining benefits, which personally I think is preposterous to tie to full-time employment anyway. What else is there? Stock? Contractors are eligible for stock. Even so, I don't need anyone to do anything beyond what they've been hired to do. Why would I need someone to go above and beyond? I just need smart, competent workers.
zemvpferreira 6y ago
I work a lot with contractors in a different industry (construction/real estate) and I can't say this is true. Even mercenaries want to take pride in a job well done, and if you build a long-term project with them, they'll want to see it succeed. Being in it for the money does not have to mean not caring about what you're working on.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Also, referrals are worth a lot of money in construction. I’ll pay extra if I’m not gambling in a random contractor.
balfirevic 6y ago
> One problem with hiring only contractors is they’re in it only for the money. What do you believe employees are in it for?
- 1123581321 6y ago
  The context of this conversation is full-time salaried employees who give more than they financially get, so personal satisfaction, influencing others' behavior, or prestige at the company are some potential answers to your question.
  - tobasq 6y ago
    A lot of (most?) tech industry workers change jobs every 2-3 years and develop no particular attachment to or long-term plans for remaining at a company.
  - balfirevic 6y ago
    Thanks for the answer. Having had experience with both employee and contractor colleagues (and having been both) I'd say the only one that might not apply (but also could, depending on circumstances) to contractors is prestige at the company.
Nursie 6y ago
"they’re not incentivized to do anything beyond beyond what they’re asked to do and will need to be highly managed." I actually find that quite offensive. Myself and the other contractors I know are professionals, winning work through reputation and delivering results. That's why we get paid well. We require less management and always try to deliver above expectations. We have a professional, business to business relationship with our clients, where many employees seem to consider their employer almost a surrogate parent. Employees have no more skin in the game, in fact I'd say less - if I don't deliver I get no more work.
- hellisothers 6y ago
  That is fair and I apologize for the characterization, it’s a generalization not meant to apply to everybody. I have been on both ”teams” as engineer and manager as well and either way it’s something you have to take into account as you work on or manage the people.
- tcbawo 6y ago
  In my experience, being a salaried employee doesn't really give you skin in the game at all. It's often illusory, as owning a sliver of equity or profit sharing translates to practically no upside or downside. Salaried employees and contracts are equally likely (or unlikely) to be invested in the success of the company. Misusing contractors or mismanaging salaried employees is a failure of management, and ultimately a failure of ownership. Garbage at the top, garbage at the bottom.
kjjjjjjjjjjjjjj 6y ago
I am w-2 and my salary is in the top <2% of salaries in America and I literally only do my job for money, and I only care about money. The better I do, the more money I can make.
m463 6y ago
Having been a contractor for quite some time, I was in it for the work and I was happy. I usually worked in the middle of the bell curve part of the project and was exempted from all the silly meetings.
bradknowles 6y ago
You may think that’s the way it’s supposed to work for contractors, but in every single job I’ve ever had as a contractor, I always tried very hard to work as if I was a salaried employee — like I had skin in the game. It’s just part of who I am, and I can’t really change that. Either way, I am trying to take home a certain amount of money, sure. And make enough to cover my insurance needs, yes. And as a contractor, I was always sensitive to those clients who wanted to make sure I never billed more than 40 hours a week, regardless of how many hours of work I actually did. Maybe that’s not how contractors are supposed to do things, but that’s a core part of my personality, and not something I can change — or would want to. Of course, I’ve never been an Amazon warehouse worker, or a driver for Uber or Lyft, so for them I might act differently. But as an IT consultant many times over the past 30+ years, this has been the way I have worked.
lancesells 6y ago
I'm a consultant / contractor. I never think about it as "in it only for the money". I try to provide value as much as possible.
mcv 6y ago
My ownership over the projects I worked on has gone up enormously since I became a freelancer/contractor. I'm not here to merely put in the hours, I'm here to deliver the best product I can. And I tend to stay on a project until I'm sure I can leave without it collapsing. My incentive is to make my client happy so they may hire me again, to get a successful project on my resume, and to be able to point future clients to this client if they want to know what I can do for them.

kyriakos 6y ago

This is a very valid point. In my workplace we have contractors and FTE engineers all paid by monthly salary. The contractors are by far more efficient coders. But it makes sense, they attend only standups and they waste no time in HR and corporate rituals,

Aeolun 6y ago
Lol, yeah. You get to skip so many meetings as a contractor.

tra3 6y ago

How do you avoid meetings with a distributed part time team? Any hints or best practices? Working, part time, with a remote team and seem to have 3 hours of meetings. How do you do it?

withinboredom 6y ago
We're remote and have a one hour meeting every three weeks; because we believe it's important to have a high bandwidth conversation to make sure we're all on the same page. Beyond that, we communicate mostly on GitHub issues, Slack (for realtime issues, goofing off, etc), and P2 for designing things that need more threading/nuance. We're so distributed (literally around the world) that our one hour meeting is guaranteed to inconvenience someone. When it's my turn, our meeting is at 11pm local time. I usually join with a beer. This meeting is usually a retrospective and just going through what issues we're planning to prioritize for the next few weeks.
- tra3 6y ago
  How long has the team been assembled for and how do you bring new people on? Is your team mostly tech people? Are there any business folks involved?
  - withinboredom 6y ago
    We've been a proper team for almost two years now, we recently brought on a new developer last year. Onboarding is a whole thing as there are many, many systems involved in our project. We do hop on 1:1 video calls as needed to discuss things or get help debugging, which also can end up being a social call just as much as working together. We're a very technical team, so we don't have any business specialists on the teams.

news_to_me 6y ago

This is also why I started freelancing and limit myself to ~20hr weeks. I actually feel just as productive as I did working 8hr days salaried, since I have much better mental health with the extra free time. The only real downside is finding clients to agree to that limit, but so far it hasn't been too much of a problem.

mattharney 6y ago
And as someone who hires contractors, 20 hours can be positive for your client. Why? Lowers weekly management / feedback / “business decisions” needed to enable your work.

fukmbas 6y ago

Take your gig economy elsewhere bro