5 ms·

This seems on the surface about protecting LGBTQ+, but it seems the kicker is really about treatment for transgender teenagers. There is a movement to stop any

This seems on the surface about protecting LGBTQ+, but it seems the kicker is really about treatment for transgender teenagers. There is a movement to stop any kind of discussion about therapy on gender dysphoria other than transition. Trans activists seek to cast all therapeutic interventions other than transitioning in the same light as conversion therapy. I think we will deal with the fallout of this activism for decades to come: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/calls-to-end-transgender-experiment-on-children-k792rfj7d https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/calls-to-end-transgender-...

throwaway53453 6y ago
I have been friends with a few trans folks in the past, and more than one has suggested that things are going too far. The prevailing opinion I get is they just want to be left alone (after going through what is a traumatic situation), but they keep getting dragged into this culture war crap by a very loud and dangerous minority.
- fock 6y ago
  this resonates well with an article in a german liberal newspaper about the fight for a "third sex". While the newspaper was merrily engaging in this culture war by their website, this article (from the actual physical paper) clearly mentioned that this problem (which by the way was akin to changing a single letter from a supposedly too aggressive variant to a "better" one) was only applicable to maybe 300 people in total, because even with a higher prevalence of chromosome defects, most people tend to grow/live happily one way. So we had a 1 year discussion about this problem, which was not a problem at all (just the wording was considered "offensive" by a single individual) occupying our parliament for hours. For me, this seems like a kind of tyranny by the few (since the change in wording doesn't change any of the liberties this one person has...)
morelisp 6y ago
Hormone blockers are not "transition" and the hormone treatments given to trans teenagers are regularly prescribed for cis people of all ages for other reasons.
- nostrebored 6y ago
  Yes... Like hormonal imbalance. This is a disingenuous framing.
  - morelisp 6y ago
    Yes, and like hormonal imbalance in cis people, the evidence is clear the benefits of the treatments outweigh the risks also for trans people. This is how we make medical decisions, not as a proxy for moral panic. The only disingenuous framing is hormone blockers as "transition". I'm extremely cynical about Amazon's move qua their own ethics, here but I also understand where the internal pressure is coming from given how rapidly the UK mainstreamed such deep transphobia.
- throwaway53453 6y ago
  Read the article again. We know there are severe long term effects to a child's development, and there's been more than a few cases of people saying they regret it decades down the line.
  - morelisp 6y ago
    As is the normal talking point for the UK anti-trans lobby, you are conflating the medical intervention for children (hormone blockers) with the medical intervention for young adults (hormones) with the long-term effects of hormones after taking them for years - well into adulthood. Some adults do regret the long-term effects of their hormone treatments. Many more adults regret not getting access to hormone treatments sooner. Others regret going off hormones for personal or professional reasons and then not being able to start again because their doctor says they must not really be trans. The solution for all these problems is easier and more flexible access to the treatments and a society more open to all modes of gender. Not a "but the children" moral panic.
    - throwaway53453 6y ago
      First, I'm not some kind of shill who's "part of the UK anti-trans lobby". I'm not anti trans. What I am concerned about is damaging children's hormonal development and having them later regret it. > Some adults do regret the long-term effects of their hormone treatments. Even a single child regretting this when they're older is enough for me to say this is morally ambiguous, but I bet you those numbers will go up in decades to come.
konjin 6y ago
I must be old, when I read about puberty blockers all I can see is pedophiles finding a loophole to fuck pre-pubescent children who are over 18. It's kind of odd that no one is talking about that aspect given how many journalists pushing progressive ideas turn out to be closeted pedophiles and how mainstream media tries to normalize pedophilia at least once a decade with some big blitz about how we shouldn't really judge pedophiles harshly.
- Hamuko 6y ago
  Do hormone blockers also block mental development?
  - konjin 6y ago
    >>I must be old, when I read about puberty blockers all I can see is pedophiles finding a loophole to fuck pre-pubescent children who are over 18. It's kind of odd that no one is talking about that aspect given how many journalists pushing progressive ideas turn out to be closeted pedophiles and how mainstream media tries to normalize pedophilia at least once a decade with some big blitz about how we shouldn't really judge pedophiles harshly. >Do hormone blockers also block mental development? The same people pushing for them being available for the masses are the same people who would never allow a mass randomized double blind trial to be conducted because it would cause 'harm'. Can't help but think the people hobbling science are the ones who have something to hide.
    - vertex-four 6y ago
      Actually, no. This has been studied. There are no ill effects in brain development when you give adolescents puberty blockers that we can tell. You can use the google search <transgender puberty blockers brain development> to find articles, from actual doctors, with references saying so.
      - esarbe 6y ago
        I'm sorry to contradict you. We currently do not know what effect puberty blockers have. There's not enough research. It's also not true that there are no ill effects in brain developments; studies with animals have shown some concerning results with regards to cognitive functions. So, it would be more honest to say; "Actually, we don't know. This has not been studied enough." https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2021/02/20/little-is-known-about-the-effects-of-puberty-blockers https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2021/02/20/...
herodoturtle 6y ago
> There is a movement to stop any kind of discussion about therapy on gender dysphoria other than transition. Can you please unpack this sentence a little more? I'm just trying to understand things better. My understanding of therapy is that it is used for healing and / or to cure a disorder. And so I can see why using the word "therapy" in this context is problematic, because it implies that there exists something which needs to be healed, or a disorder which needs to be cured. I'd value your thoughts on this. Thanks.
- high_derivative 6y ago
  I am not an expert on this, and these below are not my opinions but how I have understood the debate thus far: - Gender dysphoria is classified in Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) - When it manifests in young people, there can be various reasons, for example, coming to terms with being gay. - Therapy can explore the reasons for this and help understand how to best help the patients - For some patients, the right course of action is to have gender affirming surgery and transition - For other patients, this is a temporary discomfort with their identity that passes or can be resolved otherwise (e..g by accepting sexual identity etc). <--- This is the controversial part. Trans right activists see this position as an erasure of trans identity/denying their right to exist, etc pp. They seek to suppress any kind of research investigating e.g. the rapid rise in gender dysmorphia in teenagers as a medical phenomenon (e.g. in https://quillette.com/2019/03/19/an-interview-with-lisa-littman-who-coined-the-term-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria/ https://quillette.com/2019/03/19/an-interview-with-lisa-litt...), and seek to ban any books/research/open debate in this area. I have no idea on the biological or psychological reasons, but I object to any suppression of research on medical phenomena.
  - e12e 6y ago
    > Gender dysphoria is classified in Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) So, will Amazon now de-list diagnostic manuals?
  - herodoturtle 6y ago
    Thanks for breaking down the evolution of the debate; your summary gave me a lot more context to this discussion. > This is the controversial part. Trans right activists see this position as an erasure of trans identity/denying their right to exist, etc pp. They seek to suppress any kind of research investigating Does this mean _all_ Trans rights activists? I'm wondering if there is discourse from Trans rights activists who are activists for reasons other than those associated with medical research - and who possibly object to this attempt by a subset of Trans rights activists to suppress said research. I only have one Trans friend that I actively engage with on this topic, and I get the impression that even within the Trans community there is a lot of disagreement in terms of what's best for society (and how to best raise our children). Which is perfectly normal - especially given the deeply nuanced nature of this discussion. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around why Amazon took this step.
VBprogrammer 6y ago
This is a classic application of the appeal to think of the children. I'm sure before homosexually became culturally acceptable there were plenty of people employing the same arguments against legalising homosexually. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  "Think of the children" is not an universal red herring, though. It can be used in bad ways and good ways, and a lot of ways in the middle. Child labor was banned because people started to think of the children. Transition of minors does not seem to be a morally clear cut topic to me, given that they aren't allowed to do a lot of other life changing things. You can argue for the opposite, but too many trans activists are painting their opponents as stupid, disingenious or even hateful and want to silence them by force. This will blow back on them.
  - morelisp 6y ago
    Minors are prescribed hormone blockers, which are not "transition." You are being lied to by the UK press.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    Where do children get cross sex hormones or surgery? (If you can't answer this question without googling it shows that maybe you need to slow down before posting, to avoid spreading misinformation.)
- Hamuko 6y ago
  Were? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_gay_propaganda_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_gay_propaganda_law
- konjin 6y ago
  We are literally thinking about the children here. We are asking: "Should we let children cut off their genitals?" If we are going to let them do that we should at least let them put their genitals where they feel like before then. The hypocrisy is the problem. You can't both have children be too immature to decide to have sex, yet be mature enough to make decisions about their sex which will impact them for the rest of their lives.
spacemanmatt 6y ago
Transition is the generally recognized treatment for gender dysphoria.
- fock 6y ago
  yes. but why is pumping bodies full of hormons and cutting them preferred to non-invasive techniques? (which may or may not work as well and which are the first "solution" to similar problems before going to the meds)
  - NestedLoopGoBrr 6y ago
    Because the other options don’t work. Do even a little research instead of reposting the same question that you keep getting flagged for.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    Non invasive techniques are used -- people socially transition before they get access to hormones and surgery. For some people social transition is all they need, but ofr a small group of people hormones and surgery are life saving interventions.
    - fock 6y ago
      ok, but why are we talking about a lot of kids doing this then (with the technicality of just removing the hormons and not adding them). I don't think you can judge whether social transitioning works within a month or so? Also: is there any indication that this is (in the sense that people need transition or otherwise kill themselves) is a problem in other societies than ours (or just with a bunch of apes). Because I still think that we should maybe change our society before we do hardly reversible things to people to make them fit in (very unpopular and quite influenced by conservative christianity (though I'm not affiliated))
      - DanBC 6y ago
        > but why are we talking about a lot of kids doing this then Because you've been lied to. You've been duped by hate groups, and now you're happily spreading their disinfo. > Also: is there any indication that this is (in the sense that people need transition or otherwise kill themselves) is a problem in other societies than ours (or just with a bunch of apes). Because I still think that we should maybe change our society before we do hardly reversible things to people to make them fit in (very unpopular and quite influenced by conservative christianity (though I'm not affiliated)) It's not a problem in other cultures because other cultures just let people transition. Without transition we do see increased rates of distress, including higher rates of attempted suicide and deaths by suicide.
mrweasel 6y ago
Personally, I believe that Amazon should be free to choose what they want to sell. The problems start if they are pressured to adjust what they sell, based on a small, but vocal minority group with self serving interest. In this case there's a group of transsexuals, who feel, perhaps rightly so, that society haven't been sufficiently helpful or protective. They just fail to understand that not all who identify as transsexual at an yearly age grow up to be transsexual. Some end up being comfortable with the gender they where born with, why other turn out to just be homosexual. Exposing these groups to a non-critical treatment and not discussing other options will hurt a group of people much larger than those you are currently denied help with transition. It's just hard to argue with a well meaning minority, without being cast as being against them.
- guipsp 6y ago
  Calling transgender people "transsexuals" is the same as calling black people "blacks". It's dehumanising.
  - mrweasel 6y ago
    Oh, sorry, I honestly had no idea.
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    No, those are commonly-used terms in the US. Stop being the problem, SJW.
  - dogma1138 6y ago
    I never understood that really. Trans people that transition do not do that to assume the opposite gender (at least as Gender is used today especially in the same circles), they are attempting to assume the primary secondary sexual characteristics of the opposite sex. I never got a good explanation why transsexual was changed to transgender other than the fact that you can’t change your biological sex. The whole sex vs gender debate is a literal mess. On one hand gender is a social construct if so transgenderism would never be an issue, if gender is so fluid and a “choice” then why convention therapy can’t work (I don’t think it can, and I also don’t think that gender / sexual orientation is particularly fluid or a choice). Personally I started to look at sex or well sexuality as the social construct these days, it’s clearly a tool to form societal structures as seen in places like prisons for example. Gender on the other hand for me is the heuristics that arise from biological constraints due to the (biological) sexual dimorphism of humans. As far as “black” vs “African American” that seems to be an utterly American thing. In the U.K. Black British for example is literally an acceptable way to call a black person, if they are black British that is since there are plenty of other black minorities in the U.K. like black Caribbean etc. I’ve never seen anyone saying African British.
DanBC 6y ago
Weird that you link to an article about tavi. 1) Trans people hate tavi, and want the contract taken off them. 2) Tavi's child services don't provide access to surgery or cross sex hormones 3) Most of tavi's child patients don't get puberty blockers. This is an area with considerable disinfo. Most people on HN are woefully unprepared to deal with that, which is why this thread is full of inaccurate info.
lumberingjack 6y ago
Lots of graves because it's fact even if they get alterations they still commit suicide greater number than anyone else.

throwaway53453 6y ago

I have been friends with a few trans folks in the past, and more than one has suggested that things are going too far. The prevailing opinion I get is they just want to be left alone (after going through what is a traumatic situation), but they keep getting dragged into this culture war crap by a very loud and dangerous minority.

fock 6y ago
this resonates well with an article in a german liberal newspaper about the fight for a "third sex". While the newspaper was merrily engaging in this culture war by their website, this article (from the actual physical paper) clearly mentioned that this problem (which by the way was akin to changing a single letter from a supposedly too aggressive variant to a "better" one) was only applicable to maybe 300 people in total, because even with a higher prevalence of chromosome defects, most people tend to grow/live happily one way. So we had a 1 year discussion about this problem, which was not a problem at all (just the wording was considered "offensive" by a single individual) occupying our parliament for hours. For me, this seems like a kind of tyranny by the few (since the change in wording doesn't change any of the liberties this one person has...)

morelisp 6y ago

Hormone blockers are not "transition" and the hormone treatments given to trans teenagers are regularly prescribed for cis people of all ages for other reasons.

nostrebored 6y ago
Yes... Like hormonal imbalance. This is a disingenuous framing.
- morelisp 6y ago
  Yes, and like hormonal imbalance in cis people, the evidence is clear the benefits of the treatments outweigh the risks also for trans people. This is how we make medical decisions, not as a proxy for moral panic. The only disingenuous framing is hormone blockers as "transition". I'm extremely cynical about Amazon's move qua their own ethics, here but I also understand where the internal pressure is coming from given how rapidly the UK mainstreamed such deep transphobia.
throwaway53453 6y ago
Read the article again. We know there are severe long term effects to a child's development, and there's been more than a few cases of people saying they regret it decades down the line.
- morelisp 6y ago
  As is the normal talking point for the UK anti-trans lobby, you are conflating the medical intervention for children (hormone blockers) with the medical intervention for young adults (hormones) with the long-term effects of hormones after taking them for years - well into adulthood. Some adults do regret the long-term effects of their hormone treatments. Many more adults regret not getting access to hormone treatments sooner. Others regret going off hormones for personal or professional reasons and then not being able to start again because their doctor says they must not really be trans. The solution for all these problems is easier and more flexible access to the treatments and a society more open to all modes of gender. Not a "but the children" moral panic.
  - throwaway53453 6y ago
    First, I'm not some kind of shill who's "part of the UK anti-trans lobby". I'm not anti trans. What I am concerned about is damaging children's hormonal development and having them later regret it. > Some adults do regret the long-term effects of their hormone treatments. Even a single child regretting this when they're older is enough for me to say this is morally ambiguous, but I bet you those numbers will go up in decades to come.

konjin 6y ago

I must be old, when I read about puberty blockers all I can see is pedophiles finding a loophole to fuck pre-pubescent children who are over 18. It's kind of odd that no one is talking about that aspect given how many journalists pushing progressive ideas turn out to be closeted pedophiles and how mainstream media tries to normalize pedophilia at least once a decade with some big blitz about how we shouldn't really judge pedophiles harshly.

Hamuko 6y ago
Do hormone blockers also block mental development?
- konjin 6y ago
  >>I must be old, when I read about puberty blockers all I can see is pedophiles finding a loophole to fuck pre-pubescent children who are over 18. It's kind of odd that no one is talking about that aspect given how many journalists pushing progressive ideas turn out to be closeted pedophiles and how mainstream media tries to normalize pedophilia at least once a decade with some big blitz about how we shouldn't really judge pedophiles harshly. >Do hormone blockers also block mental development? The same people pushing for them being available for the masses are the same people who would never allow a mass randomized double blind trial to be conducted because it would cause 'harm'. Can't help but think the people hobbling science are the ones who have something to hide.
  - vertex-four 6y ago
    Actually, no. This has been studied. There are no ill effects in brain development when you give adolescents puberty blockers that we can tell. You can use the google search <transgender puberty blockers brain development> to find articles, from actual doctors, with references saying so.
    - esarbe 6y ago
      I'm sorry to contradict you. We currently do not know what effect puberty blockers have. There's not enough research. It's also not true that there are no ill effects in brain developments; studies with animals have shown some concerning results with regards to cognitive functions. So, it would be more honest to say; "Actually, we don't know. This has not been studied enough." https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2021/02/20/little-is-known-about-the-effects-of-puberty-blockers https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2021/02/20/...

herodoturtle 6y ago

> There is a movement to stop any kind of discussion about therapy on gender dysphoria other than transition. Can you please unpack this sentence a little more? I'm just trying to understand things better. My understanding of therapy is that it is used for healing and / or to cure a disorder. And so I can see why using the word "therapy" in this context is problematic, because it implies that there exists something which needs to be healed, or a disorder which needs to be cured. I'd value your thoughts on this. Thanks.

high_derivative 6y ago
I am not an expert on this, and these below are not my opinions but how I have understood the debate thus far: - Gender dysphoria is classified in Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) - When it manifests in young people, there can be various reasons, for example, coming to terms with being gay. - Therapy can explore the reasons for this and help understand how to best help the patients - For some patients, the right course of action is to have gender affirming surgery and transition - For other patients, this is a temporary discomfort with their identity that passes or can be resolved otherwise (e..g by accepting sexual identity etc). <--- This is the controversial part. Trans right activists see this position as an erasure of trans identity/denying their right to exist, etc pp. They seek to suppress any kind of research investigating e.g. the rapid rise in gender dysmorphia in teenagers as a medical phenomenon (e.g. in https://quillette.com/2019/03/19/an-interview-with-lisa-littman-who-coined-the-term-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria/ https://quillette.com/2019/03/19/an-interview-with-lisa-litt...), and seek to ban any books/research/open debate in this area. I have no idea on the biological or psychological reasons, but I object to any suppression of research on medical phenomena.
- e12e 6y ago
  > Gender dysphoria is classified in Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) So, will Amazon now de-list diagnostic manuals?
- herodoturtle 6y ago
  Thanks for breaking down the evolution of the debate; your summary gave me a lot more context to this discussion. > This is the controversial part. Trans right activists see this position as an erasure of trans identity/denying their right to exist, etc pp. They seek to suppress any kind of research investigating Does this mean _all_ Trans rights activists? I'm wondering if there is discourse from Trans rights activists who are activists for reasons other than those associated with medical research - and who possibly object to this attempt by a subset of Trans rights activists to suppress said research. I only have one Trans friend that I actively engage with on this topic, and I get the impression that even within the Trans community there is a lot of disagreement in terms of what's best for society (and how to best raise our children). Which is perfectly normal - especially given the deeply nuanced nature of this discussion. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around why Amazon took this step.

VBprogrammer 6y ago

This is a classic application of the appeal to think of the children. I'm sure before homosexually became culturally acceptable there were plenty of people employing the same arguments against legalising homosexually. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children

inglor_cz 6y ago
"Think of the children" is not an universal red herring, though. It can be used in bad ways and good ways, and a lot of ways in the middle. Child labor was banned because people started to think of the children. Transition of minors does not seem to be a morally clear cut topic to me, given that they aren't allowed to do a lot of other life changing things. You can argue for the opposite, but too many trans activists are painting their opponents as stupid, disingenious or even hateful and want to silence them by force. This will blow back on them.
- morelisp 6y ago
  Minors are prescribed hormone blockers, which are not "transition." You are being lied to by the UK press.
- DanBC 6y ago
  Where do children get cross sex hormones or surgery? (If you can't answer this question without googling it shows that maybe you need to slow down before posting, to avoid spreading misinformation.)
Hamuko 6y ago
Were? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_gay_propaganda_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_gay_propaganda_law
konjin 6y ago
We are literally thinking about the children here. We are asking: "Should we let children cut off their genitals?" If we are going to let them do that we should at least let them put their genitals where they feel like before then. The hypocrisy is the problem. You can't both have children be too immature to decide to have sex, yet be mature enough to make decisions about their sex which will impact them for the rest of their lives.

spacemanmatt 6y ago

Transition is the generally recognized treatment for gender dysphoria.

fock 6y ago
yes. but why is pumping bodies full of hormons and cutting them preferred to non-invasive techniques? (which may or may not work as well and which are the first "solution" to similar problems before going to the meds)
- NestedLoopGoBrr 6y ago
  Because the other options don’t work. Do even a little research instead of reposting the same question that you keep getting flagged for.
- DanBC 6y ago
  Non invasive techniques are used -- people socially transition before they get access to hormones and surgery. For some people social transition is all they need, but ofr a small group of people hormones and surgery are life saving interventions.
  - fock 6y ago
    ok, but why are we talking about a lot of kids doing this then (with the technicality of just removing the hormons and not adding them). I don't think you can judge whether social transitioning works within a month or so? Also: is there any indication that this is (in the sense that people need transition or otherwise kill themselves) is a problem in other societies than ours (or just with a bunch of apes). Because I still think that we should maybe change our society before we do hardly reversible things to people to make them fit in (very unpopular and quite influenced by conservative christianity (though I'm not affiliated))
    - DanBC 6y ago
      > but why are we talking about a lot of kids doing this then Because you've been lied to. You've been duped by hate groups, and now you're happily spreading their disinfo. > Also: is there any indication that this is (in the sense that people need transition or otherwise kill themselves) is a problem in other societies than ours (or just with a bunch of apes). Because I still think that we should maybe change our society before we do hardly reversible things to people to make them fit in (very unpopular and quite influenced by conservative christianity (though I'm not affiliated)) It's not a problem in other cultures because other cultures just let people transition. Without transition we do see increased rates of distress, including higher rates of attempted suicide and deaths by suicide.

mrweasel 6y ago

Personally, I believe that Amazon should be free to choose what they want to sell. The problems start if they are pressured to adjust what they sell, based on a small, but vocal minority group with self serving interest. In this case there's a group of transsexuals, who feel, perhaps rightly so, that society haven't been sufficiently helpful or protective. They just fail to understand that not all who identify as transsexual at an yearly age grow up to be transsexual. Some end up being comfortable with the gender they where born with, why other turn out to just be homosexual. Exposing these groups to a non-critical treatment and not discussing other options will hurt a group of people much larger than those you are currently denied help with transition. It's just hard to argue with a well meaning minority, without being cast as being against them.

guipsp 6y ago
Calling transgender people "transsexuals" is the same as calling black people "blacks". It's dehumanising.
- mrweasel 6y ago
  Oh, sorry, I honestly had no idea.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  No, those are commonly-used terms in the US. Stop being the problem, SJW.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  I never understood that really. Trans people that transition do not do that to assume the opposite gender (at least as Gender is used today especially in the same circles), they are attempting to assume the primary secondary sexual characteristics of the opposite sex. I never got a good explanation why transsexual was changed to transgender other than the fact that you can’t change your biological sex. The whole sex vs gender debate is a literal mess. On one hand gender is a social construct if so transgenderism would never be an issue, if gender is so fluid and a “choice” then why convention therapy can’t work (I don’t think it can, and I also don’t think that gender / sexual orientation is particularly fluid or a choice). Personally I started to look at sex or well sexuality as the social construct these days, it’s clearly a tool to form societal structures as seen in places like prisons for example. Gender on the other hand for me is the heuristics that arise from biological constraints due to the (biological) sexual dimorphism of humans. As far as “black” vs “African American” that seems to be an utterly American thing. In the U.K. Black British for example is literally an acceptable way to call a black person, if they are black British that is since there are plenty of other black minorities in the U.K. like black Caribbean etc. I’ve never seen anyone saying African British.

DanBC 6y ago

Weird that you link to an article about tavi. 1) Trans people hate tavi, and want the contract taken off them. 2) Tavi's child services don't provide access to surgery or cross sex hormones 3) Most of tavi's child patients don't get puberty blockers. This is an area with considerable disinfo. Most people on HN are woefully unprepared to deal with that, which is why this thread is full of inaccurate info.

lumberingjack 6y ago

Lots of graves because it's fact even if they get alterations they still commit suicide greater number than anyone else.