12 ms·

Why is it inevitable that the UK will become like America? There are plenty of independent Algo-States that are nothing like it. Australia, New Zealand, Canada

• carmen_sandiego 6y ago
  I have no idea why but the EU/Brexit is one subject where HN comment quality falls apart. I would have assumed most people here are Americans, so not really emotionally invested in their 'side'. But this comment section is full of Twitter hot take type stuff.
  • disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    The same thing happened with Trump, and American flashpoint politics more generally. Note that it's morning in Europe, and as such there will be lots of British/European people around, for whom Brexit is a bigger deal.
  • bb123 6y ago
    I think given the timezone difference, most people on here this time of day are probably in the UK/Europe. I guess the emotive nature of the subject is showing through.
  • brmgb 6y ago
    To be honest, there is little emotional investment in Europe regarding Brexit. People wanted to be done with it as the process was wasting valuable union time and there was a feeling it was needlessly draging on but from what I have seen Europeans actually care very little about the UK. Brexit mostly was and remains a domestic issue which is why it's such a touchy subject on HN where there is probably a significant number of Britons commenting.
    • avian 6y ago
      > there is little emotional investment in Europe regarding Brexit As someone from the continental Europe, this is not at all my experience, but I'm sure this depends on the specific social bubble I'm in. There are plenty of people around that had their lives complicated because of it, enough that most people I know have very strong feelings about it.
      • orwin 6y ago
        In my rural/coastal bubble, people seems to believe than UK homeowners will suddenly have to sell their properties and that prices will drop, and are pretty much happy about brexit. I know it won't happen, but hey, at least its cheap joy and hope. But mostly, no one cares.
  • monkey_monkey 6y ago
    I hope you realise you're also describing your contribution to this debate.
    • carmen_sandiego 6y ago
      I don't. I think I've noted some egregious comments and posted opinions, yes, but my complaint isn't about people having opinions. It's about, for example, the top level comment being gleeful about the sky falling without really having any valuable content. Or another which lazily dismisses this as corruption with no further engagement needed. "I think it's hilarious that Britain will fail. Who agrees?" is not really what I consider a good seed comment. It's fine to think Britain will fail, but at least provide something for people to discuss with you.
      • monkey_monkey 6y ago
        Using quotes to paraphrase your own interpretation of what OP posted (and then ignoring the last sentence which had more meat) is exactly the kind of low value comment you're talking about.
        • thu2111 6y ago
          No, his post is on-point and worthy of discussion, or meta-discussion if you like. HN comments on anything EU or Brexit related during the morning/early afternoon CET, i.e. before America wakes up, show the ugly truth underlying EU ideology. The comments are filled with spite, anger, hatred and anti-British, anti-capitalist sentiment. This reflects the type of discourse that has been routine in the media and politics of EU member states over the past five years. I do believe that one of the major reasons the UK voted to leave was the realisation that other European countries were not in fact friendly allies as the Remain campaign tried to portray, but rather arrogant and complacent takers that saw the UK as a resource to be exploited and abused. Whilst in public EU leadership tried to stay on message, way too often the mask slipped and the truth was revealed. Examples: French ex-President Francois Hollande on Brexit: "There must be a threat, there must be a risk, there must be a price [for leaving]" EU negotiators when they thought the UK would accept the previous withdrawal agreement: "We got rid of them [the British]. We kicked them out. We finally turned them into a colony, and that was our plan from the first moment" Guy Verhofstadt: "The world order of tomorrow is not a world order based on nation states or countries. It’s a world order that is based on empires" An anonymous German ambassador: "There is no shortage of acrimony. I don’t think there will be any circumstances under which there will be anything other than a Brexit cold war." And their demands during the negotiations were of similar spirit. Sadly these attitudes are not merely confined to the hallways of EU institutions - it is worse, it appears to be endemic amongst the population. It is a totalitarian attitude: bend the knee to the mighty group. Give in completely, or we will crush you into submission. Americans may find it shocking but it's no surprise to those of us who have lived through it directly. The good news is that now the UK is out and the Rejoin campaign has died in its crib due to the EU's vaccine disaster, EU ideology will gradually fade away there with time, as it did in other countries that opted not to join at all.
  • ploika 6y ago
    I actually think it's because so many people here are Americans that the hot takes on the EU don't fall foul of the "no political battles" rule as often as they should.
  • hackeraccount 6y ago
    Foreigners and foreign countries can be proxies for domestic arguments. My favorite example is how the ancient Romans would talk about the non-Roman "barbarians." It might be they described them as they were but it's more likely they used them to make a point about what was wrong with their contemporary Roman society. The barbarians are good, loyal and brave. They don't spend their time with cultural frivolities like theater, bathing and running a shop.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  • lucideer 6y ago
    > I would have assumed most people here are Americans, so not really emotionally invested in their 'side' Similar to how broadly views on Trump outside of the US tended to be similar, when people have some distance from a debate they do tend to fall down on one "side". I presume by "Twitter hot take" you just mean "takes I personally disagree with", right?
• tubularhells 6y ago
  Australia is very much like the US, and worse in many regards. You just have no idea about any of it.
  • bb123 6y ago
    In the spirit of keeping these comments high quality I'd love engage with you about this. Why do you think that? I'm actually a dual citizen of the UK and Australia and I have to say my experience is that neither country is anything like the US. (Beware when assuming you know who you're talking to on the internet ;) )
    • dansimau 6y ago
      I grew up in the city in Australia. Once when I crossed the road (as a pedestrian) at a red light, a police officer on the other side of the street stopped me and gave me a warning for jaywalking. Before I had walked, I had looked both ways and deemed it safe; there was no traffic and no other pedestrians waiting. (In my mind: I am just a person on planet Earth, trying to get from position A to position B, less than 5 metres away). Having now lived in the UK and Netherlands for over 10 years, I feel this would never happen here. I would expect this in the US though (so I rarely jaywalk on the few times I have been there). I tell this anecdote as an example to my friends when I try to describe how Australia has a mix of influences from both Europe and the US.
      • bb123 6y ago
        Haha yes, "revenue based policing". Australia is pretty bad for that. I once got a $300 speeding fine for doing 1kph above the limit. In general though I think policing in Australia is still very different to the states. Police in the US inspire fear. They just don't in the UK and Australia.
      • chocmilk 6y ago
        > Having now lived in the UK and Netherlands for over 10 years, I feel this would never happen here. It wouldn't happen in the UK because jaywalking is not a crime in UK. Quiet Australians accept authority moreso than UK folk.
• vmception 6y ago
  Mostly due to shock. The shock of their financial sector leaving. The shock of getting pitiful trade negotiating. Being unprepared with anything to offer for negotiating leverage. The domestic identity further polarizing and inability to form consensus.
  • sanity31415 6y ago
    The shock of being well ahead of the EU on vaccinations?
    • dijit 6y ago
      Broken clocks are right twice a day. Though I agree that involving both the military and the NHS has resulted in being enormously successful at rolling out the vaccine. Let’s hope that the NHS gets properly funded and doesn’t get privatised. Because the US vaccination rollout is a shambles.
      • bb123 6y ago
        Is it? They’re about 4th globally, and way ahead of the EU.
      • kmeisthax 6y ago
        >the US vaccination rollout is a shambles Japan: You guys have vaccines? In all honesty, this statement is fairly close to being hilariously wrong. The US vaccinates more people per day than any other country in the world. The reason why the UK has a higher per-capita vaccination rate is A) there's less of you to vaccinate, and B) the UK isn't doing two doses. The former makes the rollout easier - there are countries like Israel where they're close to vaccine herd immunity as they simply needed fewer doses. The latter is a calculated risk only somewhat supported by the available medical data. I don't expect every country to adopt First Dose First, especially if they've already given two doses to high-risk populations that would benefit from getting half their protection sooner. Trust me, there's plenty of other things you can harangue the US about all day - vaccines aren't one of them.
• pydry 6y ago
  #1 The UK has habitually towed the line on most American endeavors in a deferent way. The invasion of Iraq was one extremely clear example. The phrase "special relationship" which is bandied about a lot embodies this deference. #2 The UK has departed from the trading bloc it does 60% of its trade with. It desperately needs new trade deals outside of it. Since America is the biggest economic bloc outside of Europe and because they're big and we are small they have the leverage and that means we start abiding by their rules. #3 There were plans leaked on how this would be done with the NHS (e.g. deliberately hamstringing the NHS's ability to negotiate drug prices). They kept them secret from the public. To be frank, your comment seems borne out of a kind of appeal to moderation rather than particular knowledge of UK domestic politics.
  • bb123 6y ago
    The idea that U.K. tows the line on US endeavours in a way that countries like Canada and Australia don’t is absurd. Canada and the US share an enormous border and it’s often joked that Canada is like USA-lite. As for Australia - you may be right, as they’re too busy towing China’s line instead. (Although that didn’t stop them going into Vietnam).
    • pydry 6y ago
      The idea that they don't also tow the line IS absurd and I would never claim that. Nonetheless you can measure each country's contribution to the Iraq War as a rough proxy for how much they supplicate. The UK contributed by far the most of the three while Canada's involvement was minimal.
      • Normille 6y ago
        There's fierce a competition amongst many countries of the world to see who can shove their tongue furthest up the USA's arse. The UK may be out in the lead [through sheer long-term dedication to the cause, if nothing else]. But the equally supine devotion of countries like Australia, NZ, Germany, Ireland, Poland, Iceland [and several others] shouldn't be under-estimated.
• pm 6y ago
  Australia is fast adopting some of what I consider some of the less useful aspects of American culture, not to mention our political class revelling in their overt corruption and willingly opening the back-door for the rest of 5-EYES.
• selfhoster11 6y ago
  It's not inevitable, but the current government appears to move in that direction intentionally. - The EU exit was, among other things, accused of being a way to relax regulation and legislation to degrade product standards to a US-like level. Chlorinated chicken was a big item on everyone's discussion agenda a while back. This is now evidently happening. - The government is severely underfunding the NHS, despite paying it lip service. Some accuse the government of doing this as a form of sabotage, so that the service quality degrades and the private sector can swoop in as the saviour. This is controversial because: a) Brits are very proud of the NHS as a nation (or at least that's the dominant narrative in my news bubble) b) The privatisation of British rail has been a disaster - ticket prices have skyrocketed, and service quality took a nosedive in some areas.
  • thu2111 6y ago
    The US is hardly some low regulation capitalist utopia. The US regulatory code is enormous. Plenty of self-proclaimed "Europeans" think it is, but in my experience they often know relatively little about the issues in question and are just parroting cultural talking points they picked up elsewhere. Indeed, you seem to admit that here, when you state that you got your views of what British people believe from your "news bubble". For example you think everyone else thinks the NHS is awesome, because left-wing journalists told you that's what everyone thinks. One day you'll talk to a Brit outside of that bubble and get a real shock to discover they aren't enamoured with the NHS at all. Remember, nobody has copied the NHS model. Nobody! The rest of the EU looked at it and thought the UK was crazy to do that, they all went with far greater private sector involvement. The NHS is a socialist anachronism and plenty of people would love to move to a more standard social insurance model, but even expressing such an opinion results in nasty, vicious attacks by the left, so people quickly learn to just stay quiet about it. Quite possibly one day there will be a referendum on this and the same sorts of people whose minds were blown by Brexit will have their minds blown a second time by the degree to which people vote against the NHS. Likewise for rail. The UK just had a vote on that: Corbyn had very few identifiable policies but re-nationalisation of rail was one of them. Voters rejected that agenda on an a-historic scale. Again, if it ever became a topic of serious political debate like the EU did before the Brexit referendum, you'd be shocked at how little support nationalisation would end up having. Ridership was in decline for decades before privatisation. The moment they were privatised that trend went into reverse and ridership started climbing again, until it reached new records pre-COVID. Ticket prices were rising because the newly privatised railways became so popular (limited supply+growing demand=rising prices). Regulation: Whilst the US is not a low regulation zone by international standards, the EU is even worse. I love this headline, UK leaving GDPR. Hell yes. Another brilliant move by the UK post-Brexit, the latest in a string of them. GDPR is a disastrous "law", in quotes because it barely qualifies as a law at all in the traditional sense when you read it. Laws are meant to explicitly state what they disallow but the GDPR is so vaguely worded it could be interpreted to mean almost anything. Just on basic constitutional grounds, junking it is a smart move. But there are practical benefits too. GDPR imposes staggering costs on businesses to deliver dubious 'benefits' which approximately nobody outside of the reflexive "it's EU so it must be good" bubble actually cares about. There has been no mass migration away from US tech firms at any point, GDPR implementation changed basically nothing about the online experience and the EU's various attempts to legislate tech firms away from domestic markets just made it impossible to create local competitors. Beyond being banned from some local US newspapers and forcing yet more privacy popups everywhere, GDPR has been largely impact-free.
• medium_burrito 6y ago
  In fairness to the UK, they probably aren't going to become 80% foreign real-estate scams, 20% resource extraction. Well not the latter, at least.