5 ms·

SARMs, notably GW501516 otherwise known as Cardarine. SARMs occupy a legal gray area in the US and are widely available online as research chemicals. https://

by asmos7 6y ago

SARMs, notably GW501516 otherwise known as Cardarine. SARMs occupy a legal gray area in the US and are widely available online as research chemicals. https://www.chemyo.com/gw501516/ https://www.chemyo.com/gw501516/

ChuckMcM 6y ago
Is that like "break a record, die of cancer" kind of choice. I wonder if you gave an athlete that choice explicitly which path would they choose.
- Mountain_Skies 6y ago
  Quite a few would pick cancer and the record. Top athletes do all kinds of terrible damage to themselves even without the assistance of illegal drugs. Top cyclists have to wear heart rate monitors that wake them up when their heart rates get too low because their training makes their hearts so efficient that when they rest, the heart rate can get too low to be sustained. Top cyclists dying in their sleep happens far more frequently than it does for random selections of the general population. To combat this, an alarm wakes them up so they can exercise to get their heart rate up. Even knowing this, cyclists will train themselves at a level that ends up creating this condition.
  - fractionalhare 6y ago
    > Top cyclists have to wear heart rate monitors that wake them up when their heart rates get too low because their training makes their hearts so efficient that when they rest, the heart rate can get too low to be sustained. Do you have a source for this? I don't believe it. I tried searching for a few mins and couldn't find anything to confirm it either. I wouldn't be surprised if cyclists die in their sleep often due to drug use. But I would be very surprised if you can literally overtrain your heart to the point of dying in your sleep due to low resting heart rate.
    - dh5 6y ago
      The commenter may have been referring to Rendell's Death of Marco Pantani which IIRC had a line that went something like "during the day he lived to ride, at night he rode to live."
    - mft_ 6y ago
      It was detailed in a biography of Marco Pantani - referring to him and his peers. This was probably partly (at least) related to epo - the increased oxygen carrying capacity of the blood was probably what led to their exceptionally low heart rates. I’ve not read about this phenomenon outside of the epo-dominated era.
    - nl 6y ago
      Paul Kimmage wrote about it in his book: There was the confession of the top Italian‘Y’and his explanation ofhow he had narrowly cheated death after a stage of the Tour of Italy.Boosted before the stage by an injection of EPO, he had gone to bed hat night and slept peacefully for two hours, unaware that the oxygen-enhanced blood, flowing through his veins, was rapidly thickening to treacle. EPO is transformed into a lethal cocktail, not during a race when the blood is pumped around the body by a 180 beats-per-minute, high-revving, super-fit, heart rate but at night when the revsdrop way below the norm. As Y’s pulse dropped to a low of twenty-fivebeats per minute, his blood began to clot and his heart began to stall.Had he not been sharing with a team-mate, there is every chance they would have found him dead in the morning...Y lived to tell the tale.Others were not so fortunate. and Robin Parisotto wrote this: Between 1987 and 1990, 18 cyclists died tragically and suddenly all from heart attack or stroke. EPO was known to thicken the blood the common cause of heart attack or stroke. Many victims developed clots that broke off and travelled to their hearts or brains; others died of simple cardiac arrest, the organ struggling to pump blood the consistency of oil. These are all from [1], which is a review of the evidence as to if this actually occurred. It cast doubt on it, but I've read enough accounts to think that cyclists did believe it occurred and probably were wearing HR monitors in bed when on EPO. [1] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/17460263.2011.555208 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/17460263.2011.55...
    - FpUser 6y ago
  - dh5 6y ago
    You may be thinking of Marco Pantani, who cycled in an era of widespread EPO use which dramatically thickens their blood. That coupled with a low resting heart rate can indeed lead to death. I'm not aware of low heart rate by itself being a killer.
  - mikestew 6y ago
    Top cyclists dying in their sleep happens far more frequently than it does for random selections of the general population. That's because the performance-enhancing drug EPO thickens the blood so much that the heart can't pump it, not because of low heart rates. Low heart rate in itself is not necessarily a "condition". I assume you're slightly misremembering the details of a story similar to this one: https://www.ridemedia.com.au/features/epo-and-the-spate-of-sudden-deaths/ https://www.ridemedia.com.au/features/epo-and-the-spate-of-s...
    - Scoundreller 6y ago
      Could be a bit of both? I’ve heard of EPO-users getting up in the middle of the night to trainer cycle because exercise increases blood flow which reduces clotting risk. Lower heart rates may cause/compound this. Even a non-fatal minor clot in a leg or lung will doom a cyclist. In hospitals, sedentary patients will receive anti-clotting drugs, but may not (or get reduced dosages) if they’re able to walk around a lot.
    - HDMI_Cable 6y ago
      Wouldn't the pumping of thicker blood cause heart rate to become lower? This seems like a lurking variable situation.
  - plank_time 6y ago
    Almost all the top cyclists were on performance enhancing drugs, so it’s hard to get a good feel for whether or not what you describe is because of their training or the damage the drugs did.
  - mjbeswick 6y ago
    That's simply a myth perpetuated to cover up the fact that they are taking EPO. Just like the myth created by the British in WW2 that attributed the success of the RAF at night to earthing carrots to cover up the fact that they were using radar.
- mikestew 6y ago
  There was a survey or study of some sort related to this very question. My search foo fails me at the moment, but the question was directed to elite athletes: "Olympic medal and take ten (or maybe five) years off your life?". IIRC, close to half said, "where do I sign?". Damned if I can find a link, though. It was all over every athletic-oriented magazine ten years ago. EDIT: there's even a Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman%27s_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman%27s_dilemma
- wp381640 6y ago
  There are people who accept less than a world record You only have to walk into any local gym to find people who do terrible things to themselves for no more than an Instagram selfie
jacques_chester 6y ago
SARMs are unambiguously forbidden at all times by WADA's prohibited substances list. There's no shade of grey if you are in a participating sport. https://www.wada-ama.org/en/content/what-is-prohibited/prohibited-at-all-times/anabolic-agents https://www.wada-ama.org/en/content/what-is-prohibited/prohi...
- wallaBBB 6y ago
  Exactly, something not regulated for OTC availability doesn't make it legal in WADA realm. Moreover, many SARMs (if you believe their "advertised" effectiveness) would in the end lead to elevated hormone levels in testing. There are a lot of available drugs (for asthma more notably) and everyday stimuli (as simple as caffeine) that (miss)used and also monitored by WADA. In addition there are a lot of stuff undetectable or hard to detect (EPO, HGH,...) and a lot of other drugs not yet on WADA radar, that usually have a side effect of increasing endurance and stamina. SARMs are almost a nonfactor here. SARMS are more for an everyday gym rats that are looking for the next great thing to help them out, but most of the personal feedback that reached me are - it's crap...

by asmos7 6y ago

ChuckMcM 6y ago

Is that like "break a record, die of cancer" kind of choice. I wonder if you gave an athlete that choice explicitly which path would they choose.

Mountain_Skies 6y ago
Quite a few would pick cancer and the record. Top athletes do all kinds of terrible damage to themselves even without the assistance of illegal drugs. Top cyclists have to wear heart rate monitors that wake them up when their heart rates get too low because their training makes their hearts so efficient that when they rest, the heart rate can get too low to be sustained. Top cyclists dying in their sleep happens far more frequently than it does for random selections of the general population. To combat this, an alarm wakes them up so they can exercise to get their heart rate up. Even knowing this, cyclists will train themselves at a level that ends up creating this condition.
- fractionalhare 6y ago
  > Top cyclists have to wear heart rate monitors that wake them up when their heart rates get too low because their training makes their hearts so efficient that when they rest, the heart rate can get too low to be sustained. Do you have a source for this? I don't believe it. I tried searching for a few mins and couldn't find anything to confirm it either. I wouldn't be surprised if cyclists die in their sleep often due to drug use. But I would be very surprised if you can literally overtrain your heart to the point of dying in your sleep due to low resting heart rate.
  - dh5 6y ago
    The commenter may have been referring to Rendell's Death of Marco Pantani which IIRC had a line that went something like "during the day he lived to ride, at night he rode to live."
  - mft_ 6y ago
    It was detailed in a biography of Marco Pantani - referring to him and his peers. This was probably partly (at least) related to epo - the increased oxygen carrying capacity of the blood was probably what led to their exceptionally low heart rates. I’ve not read about this phenomenon outside of the epo-dominated era.
  - nl 6y ago
    Paul Kimmage wrote about it in his book: There was the confession of the top Italian‘Y’and his explanation ofhow he had narrowly cheated death after a stage of the Tour of Italy.Boosted before the stage by an injection of EPO, he had gone to bed hat night and slept peacefully for two hours, unaware that the oxygen-enhanced blood, flowing through his veins, was rapidly thickening to treacle. EPO is transformed into a lethal cocktail, not during a race when the blood is pumped around the body by a 180 beats-per-minute, high-revving, super-fit, heart rate but at night when the revsdrop way below the norm. As Y’s pulse dropped to a low of twenty-fivebeats per minute, his blood began to clot and his heart began to stall.Had he not been sharing with a team-mate, there is every chance they would have found him dead in the morning...Y lived to tell the tale.Others were not so fortunate. and Robin Parisotto wrote this: Between 1987 and 1990, 18 cyclists died tragically and suddenly all from heart attack or stroke. EPO was known to thicken the blood the common cause of heart attack or stroke. Many victims developed clots that broke off and travelled to their hearts or brains; others died of simple cardiac arrest, the organ struggling to pump blood the consistency of oil. These are all from [1], which is a review of the evidence as to if this actually occurred. It cast doubt on it, but I've read enough accounts to think that cyclists did believe it occurred and probably were wearing HR monitors in bed when on EPO. [1] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/17460263.2011.555208 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/17460263.2011.55...
  - FpUser 6y ago
- dh5 6y ago
  You may be thinking of Marco Pantani, who cycled in an era of widespread EPO use which dramatically thickens their blood. That coupled with a low resting heart rate can indeed lead to death. I'm not aware of low heart rate by itself being a killer.
- mikestew 6y ago
  Top cyclists dying in their sleep happens far more frequently than it does for random selections of the general population. That's because the performance-enhancing drug EPO thickens the blood so much that the heart can't pump it, not because of low heart rates. Low heart rate in itself is not necessarily a "condition". I assume you're slightly misremembering the details of a story similar to this one: https://www.ridemedia.com.au/features/epo-and-the-spate-of-sudden-deaths/ https://www.ridemedia.com.au/features/epo-and-the-spate-of-s...
  - Scoundreller 6y ago
    Could be a bit of both? I’ve heard of EPO-users getting up in the middle of the night to trainer cycle because exercise increases blood flow which reduces clotting risk. Lower heart rates may cause/compound this. Even a non-fatal minor clot in a leg or lung will doom a cyclist. In hospitals, sedentary patients will receive anti-clotting drugs, but may not (or get reduced dosages) if they’re able to walk around a lot.
  - HDMI_Cable 6y ago
    Wouldn't the pumping of thicker blood cause heart rate to become lower? This seems like a lurking variable situation.
- plank_time 6y ago
  Almost all the top cyclists were on performance enhancing drugs, so it’s hard to get a good feel for whether or not what you describe is because of their training or the damage the drugs did.
- mjbeswick 6y ago
  That's simply a myth perpetuated to cover up the fact that they are taking EPO. Just like the myth created by the British in WW2 that attributed the success of the RAF at night to earthing carrots to cover up the fact that they were using radar.
mikestew 6y ago
There was a survey or study of some sort related to this very question. My search foo fails me at the moment, but the question was directed to elite athletes: "Olympic medal and take ten (or maybe five) years off your life?". IIRC, close to half said, "where do I sign?". Damned if I can find a link, though. It was all over every athletic-oriented magazine ten years ago. EDIT: there's even a Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman%27s_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman%27s_dilemma
wp381640 6y ago
There are people who accept less than a world record You only have to walk into any local gym to find people who do terrible things to themselves for no more than an Instagram selfie

jacques_chester 6y ago

SARMs are unambiguously forbidden at all times by WADA's prohibited substances list. There's no shade of grey if you are in a participating sport. https://www.wada-ama.org/en/content/what-is-prohibited/prohibited-at-all-times/anabolic-agents https://www.wada-ama.org/en/content/what-is-prohibited/prohi...

wallaBBB 6y ago
Exactly, something not regulated for OTC availability doesn't make it legal in WADA realm. Moreover, many SARMs (if you believe their "advertised" effectiveness) would in the end lead to elevated hormone levels in testing. There are a lot of available drugs (for asthma more notably) and everyday stimuli (as simple as caffeine) that (miss)used and also monitored by WADA. In addition there are a lot of stuff undetectable or hard to detect (EPO, HGH,...) and a lot of other drugs not yet on WADA radar, that usually have a side effect of increasing endurance and stamina. SARMs are almost a nonfactor here. SARMS are more for an everyday gym rats that are looking for the next great thing to help them out, but most of the personal feedback that reached me are - it's crap...