19 ms·

U.S. senators reintroduce bill to make daylight saving time permanent

512 points by prostoalex 6y ago

robotcookies 6y ago
All this is really doing is forcing everyone to wake up earlier in the morning. You're basically calling what is now 7am, 8am. Instead of forcing schools and companies to start earlier, you just repaint the clocks so these institutions will go with this without resisting. We already know that many children suffer academically, socially, psychologically because they don't get enough sleep. How many employees also suffer because of this? About a third of people are not "morning people" and get most of their productivity and mental clarity later in the day. These people will suffer the most and at the expense of those who are naturally inclined to be most productive earlier in the day. We shouldn't do this. We should do the opposite and end daylight savings for even half the year. Let companies choose to start earlier if they want in March if they want more light for their employees. Some companies will do this and some won't. Those companies that do will attract those who are morning people. The companies that don't will attract the opposite. Stop allowing a small group of morning people force what works for them onto everyone else.
Thorentis 6y ago
I much prefer sleeping when it gets dark, and this fits in much better with our body's circadian rhythm. If doing things in the dark is such an issue, why not change business/school hours to work around that? Who decided that 9-5 is the optimal time to do business? Why should we disrupt our body's natural attunement to daylight just because our bosses won't let us leave until it's already dark? Why not look at "summer business hours" instead of "daylight time"?
- ravi-delia 6y ago
  All of that is correct, very smart, and impossible to implement from the top. At this point the idiotic way to do things is just too ingrained. All that can be done is play with DST a little.
- watwut 6y ago
  Most od the year, if not whole year, there is dark long before going to sleep.
lproberts 6y ago
So the morning people may win yet another round, after having so many advantages already. Of course they cannot go to work at 7 instead of 8. No, everyone has to jump and tamper with the natural time.
- seniorsassycat 6y ago
  Are you arguing for adjusting clocks by an hour twice a year as natural time?
  - lproberts 6y ago
    No, I'm for keeping the natural time that is called "winter time" these days all year long. People who want their DST in the summer should just get up one hour earlier; laws would need to be made that jobs have to accommodate that choice. I think most jobs are that flexible these days.
    - thelean12 6y ago
      > I think most jobs are that flexible these days. Are you joking?
      - Jtsummers 6y ago
        Presumably they're in the salaried middle class bubble. Most hourly workers, factory workers, and service workers have no or little choice or flexibility with their schedules.
    - seniorsassycat 6y ago
      I don't care much if a state chooses daylight or standard time, I don't want to change zones twice a year.
- watwut 6y ago
  What are you talking about. Everyone praises a guy who stays late basically regardless of when he came in. No one praises dude that comes in soon.
paxys 6y ago
> Opponents of the bill say DST makes it hard on school children and parents who have to wait at the bus stop in dark hours of the morning. Here's an idea - let students (and parents) sleep for an additional hour rather than make them wake up before the crack of dawn for no reason.
- DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
  > Opponents of the bill say DST makes it hard on school children and parents who have to wait at the bus stop in dark hours of the morning. Probably easier to just give them all flashlights, than to have everyone shift their clocks to accommodate this use case.
  - croes 6y ago
    How about standard time instead of DST especially in winter
    - garmaine 6y ago
      Or here’s an idea: we can do DST in the summer, and standard time in the winter. Best of both worlds!
      - croes 6y ago
        The problem is the switch, so it's better to get rid of it and then Standard Time is the better choice
        garmaine 6y ago
        This argument makes less and less sense with each passing year. I'm old enough to remember when we had to change all the clocks by hand, and some people had no idea how to change the clocks in microwaves and VCRs or their car, so it'd be off by an hour for half the year. Somehow we managed fine. These days all clocks change automatically, and there are standard and constantly improving datetime libraries to help applications manage these human factors in a standard way. Your morning alarm is automatically updated, you calendar events automatically reflect the timezone they are defined in. The only curveball is when when the government arbitrarily changes the rules, like then did not too long ago in extending DST. And which DST advocates are advocating for doing _again_.
TheCraiggers 6y ago
> "Sunshine Protection Act" Gag me with a token ring card. I hate these bill names, if for no other reason than it introduces severe bias in voting. Anybody voting against this now hates sunshine, freedom, etc. That said, I'm eager for this to pass so I never have to deal with a time change again.
- exabrial 6y ago
  Like ISA or SFP? Two totally different levels of effort. PS I hate sunshine.
  - YarickR2 6y ago
    Hold the vampire, bring garlic !
  - WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
    > PS I hate sunshine Likewise. The only good weather is whatever obscures the giant, glowy, migraine-inducing, cancer ball in the sky.
- ironmagma 6y ago
  They should just name bills like they name cloud servers. Vote yes on mystical-quagmire-cheesepuff!
  - rglover 6y ago
    You joke but this is a great idea.
    - goldenchrome 6y ago
      No it’s absolutely not a great idea.
      - junon 6y ago
        You must not like awkward, magical balls of fermented milk.
gh123man 6y ago
DST has become my favorite "holiday" as an adult. Seasonal depression evaporates when I can see the sun after I finish working for the day. I can go work in my yard, or wash my car after work instead of having to cram it in the middle of the day. I feel more motivated to go do other things in the evening instead of feeling like its time for bed at 5pm.
- eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 6y ago
  The same could be achieved by having different work hours in different seasons, no need to change the underlying metric of time to achieve this. It's as if we redefined the density of water in winter so when you measure a frozen container of it the different volume yields the same weight. It might have made sense when there was a single clock in a whole village! But now with the planet probably containing 10x as many clocks as humans this is just complete lunacy.
  - ravi-delia 6y ago
    Honestly, you're absolutely right. But we don't get to decide between a permanent DST and a unified switchover of business hours across the nation, we get to decide between a permanent DST and the crappy situation we have now. I, for one, would be measurably happier if I had more daytime after 5, because getting one bill passed is a whole lot easier than convincing every single scheduling body that has power over me to switch on a seasonal basis.
  - saalweachter 6y ago
    > It's as if we redefined the density of water in winter so when you measure a frozen container of it the different volume yields the same weight. Oddly, this is exactly how the US "bushel" was defined -- it measures a mass of a specific type of grain at a particular moisture content, the idea being that the "quantity" of grain shouldn't change as it is dried.
    - eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 6y ago
      The density of water is also temperature-dependent :) My point is that the chain of determining the measurement of a natural value should start at the value, not at what we want it to be to then bend the value over backwards to be that then. So the example doesn't fall apart with a temperature-/moisture-dependent constant: The point is that the constant should not be arbitrarily changed to achieve a desired value. The constant should be measured/defined and stay as such.
Zak 6y ago
One thing that comes up every time this is discussed is that it has different impacts on people depending on their latitude. A solution that does not come up all that often is adding latitude-based time zones, and I'd be interested to read some thoughts on it from the HN community. Edit: as this was ambiguous to at least one commenter, I'm not proposing replacing the current longitude-based time zones, but splitting them or shifting their boundaries based on latitude.
- Ensorceled 6y ago
  So London, England would be in the same timezone as Moosenee, Canada and Irkutsk, Russia? EDIT: This checkerboard would be very difficult to deal with. Also, people in northern or southern latitudes are used to extremes in day lengths. But, fundamentally, timezones are so that "noon" is about when the sun is overhead for you. People at the same longitude still have the same noontime regardless of when the sun rises or sets.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    Not the above poster, but I suspect they were referring to the fact that in higher latitudes day lengths are affected much more by seasonal swings than areas closer to the equator. So the reasons for having DST to begin with becomes more exaggerated at those latitudes.
    - Ensorceled 6y ago
      I know, I live in Canada. I'm trying to figure out what they are proposing.
      - ogre_codes 6y ago
        Not entirely sure what that exactly that would mean either.
  - Zak 6y ago
    No, but Moosonee, Canada might be in a different time zone from Key West, FL (they are currently in the same time zone).
staunch 6y ago
This would be great. Could we go so far as to have the entire whole world operate on UTC, so we could have an Earth Time?
- wbc 6y ago
  agreed! based on the amount of "time" i've wasted converting timezones in code, i tell everyone that'd listen we should just teach kids to memorize unix timestamps and these problems would all go away
- lucasmullens 6y ago
  Sounds great in theory, but it becomes too hard to know what times are "early" and "late" for people. When telling people what time it is, you'd also have to include where you are so they know what's early/late, and at that point you've just reinvented timezones.
  - staunch 6y ago
    For the billions of people with smart phones, wouldn't this be very easily solved with a default app?
    - function_seven 6y ago
      Like it is now? Sure. So then what benefit are you looking for in changing everyone to UTC?
- makeworld 6y ago
  Abolishing time zones has a lot of problems. https://qntm.org/abolish https://qntm.org/abolish
  - staunch 6y ago
    Yeah, of course there are trade offs, and that's not a balanced run down of them. Most of the issues raised there seem easily addressed in the modern world.
alborzb 6y ago
> Our European visitors are important to us. This site is currently unavailable to visitors from Europe ... Does anybody have an alt mirror for this please? Genuinely interested, but can't view the news update from Europe.
- samizdis 6y ago
  Here you go: https://archive.is/femP9 https://archive.is/femP9 A bit disappointing, though. There's not much to the article. Edited to add: There's more substance in this article in the Boston Globe: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/10/nation/think-daylight-saving-time-should-be-year-round-ed-markey-other-senators-do-too/ https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/10/nation/think-daylight...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- mdaniel 6y ago
  Are they all doing that, or just the one URL in the link? https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Sunshine+Protection+Act&iar=news&ia=news https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Sunshine+Protection+Act&iar=news&i...
fattybob 6y ago
rather silly i feel, why not spend money on researching slowing the earths rotation! or maybe just wake up later all year round. Or - abandon GMT and pick a spot like Paris, maybe you can call it the new "Euro time" - that way Britain can happily ignore it and stay with GMT.
falcolas 6y ago
Like they've done (or Congress has done) every year for the past decade or so, only for it to die in-situ.
seniorsassycat 6y ago
At the very least let states choose to use daylight or standard time. Federal law allows states to permanently adopt standard time, but prohibits the year-round adoption of daylight time. Washington passed a law to adopt permanent daylight savings in 2019 but it was contingent on changes to Federal law. I'm not familiar with the federal laws governing timezones but I've wondered if Washington could have adopted Mountain Standard Time, which is the same as Pacific Daylight Time, without Federal approval. EDIT: seems Department of Transportation can assign timezone based on petition from state government. https://www.transportation.gov/regulations/procedure-moving-area-one-time-zone-another https://www.transportation.gov/regulations/procedure-moving-...
- cafard 6y ago
  Arizona does not change its clocks. It could therefore be considered to be on PDT or MST depending on the season.
  - seniorsassycat 6y ago
    https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zone/usa/arizona https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zone/usa/arizona > Most of Arizona observes Mountain Standard Time (MST) all year. However, because the Navajo Nation observes Daylight Saving Time (DST), the corresponding DST designation, Mountain Daylight Time (MDT) is also listed here. > There is a common misconception that Arizona is on Pacific Daylight Time (PDT) during the summer and on Mountain Standard Time (MST) during the winter. Because MST and PDT have the same UTC offset of minus 7 hours (UTC-7), Arizona has the same local time as neighboring states California and Nevada during the summer season.
    - 8note 6y ago
      I don't see why the state should be able to force a timezone on the Navajo Nation. They're more of a state than Arizona is
      - khwrethgklhw123 6y ago
SamBam 6y ago
I find the idea crazy. I get DST, I understand its benefits. But I think it only makes sense because it's not the norm. Because it's not the norm, we get used to the time for half the year, stick with our long-established timetables, and then want more evening sunlight in the summer. Making it permanent means we are saying that even 100 years from now, children will ask "why isn't the sun at the top of the sky at noon?" and we'll say "a hundred years ago people thought it was easier to permanently change the clocks because businesses would never, ever let people go home at 4:00." I think that, if the pandemic and a year from remote work and school has taught us anything, it's that getting people to stop work or school an hour earlier is actually within our grasp. (Speaking of which, it's 4:00. I'm going to get off the computer now.)
- treespace88 6y ago
  While I agree moving to permanent DST is kinda nuts. It’s less nuts then flipping clocks twice a year. Once we have stopped flipping we can then move back to Standard time at a future date. Fighting insanity one battle at a time.
- weaksauce 6y ago
  Where I am there is a two fold component to it... you have shorter usable days in the winter AND you also have earlier darkness for people because they shift it one hour earlier. that means that you go to work when it's dark out and come home when it's dark out. having an "extra" hour after work to relax would be a win. permanent DST is a win in my book.
- brainfish 6y ago
  What tangible benefit does society gain from the sun being straight up at noon? Furthermore, how is this a valid argument when timezones are +/- an hour wide, meaning that even if local noon == noon in one part of the timezone, that is not true in other parts of the same timezone? This is the worst reasoning to base this decision on.
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    It helps with circadian rhythms. I seem to post this for every DST story, so I might as well continue the tradition: The folks who study this: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology Seem to have come to a consensus that if we're going to get rid of DST, then health-wise it is best to have Standard Time year-round: > As an international organization of scientists dedicated to studying circadian and other biological rhythms, the Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) engaged experts in the field to write a Position Paper on the consequences of choosing to live on DST or Standard Time (ST). The authors take the position that, based on comparisons of large populations living in DST or ST or on western versus eastern edges of time zones, the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently. * https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0748730419854197 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541... For a longer-read, referencing quite a bit of academic literature, but a conclusionary snippet: > In summary, the scientific literature strongly argues against the switching between DST and Standard Time and even more so against adopting DST permanently. The latter would exaggerate all the effects described above /beyond/ the simple extension of DST from approximately 8 months/year to 12 months/year (depending on country) since /body clocks/ are generally even later during winter than during the long photoperiods of summer (with DST) (Kantermann et al., 2007; Hadlow et al., 2014, 2018; Hashizaki et al., 2018). Perennial DST increases SJL prevalence even more, as described above. * https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2019.00944/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2019.0094... Other position papers that I've dug up over the years when curiosity got the better of me: > Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) is dedicated to advancing rigorous, peer-reviewed science and evidence-based policies related to sleep and circadian biology. * https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ * (refs, with pro and con): https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DST-References-SRBRPressKit.pdf https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DST-References-S... European Sleep Research Society: * https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commission_on_DST.pdf https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commiss... American Academy of Sleep Medicine (with 36 footnotes if you want to dig further): * https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 * https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.8780 The Centre for Chronobiology, based at the Psychiatric University Hospital (University of Basel): * http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-DST.pdf http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-D... * http://www.chronobiology.ch/ http://www.chronobiology.ch/
meepmorp 6y ago
Just take things to the logical conclusion - everyone should switch to UTC and quit all this screwing around with timezones and clock changes.
- oblio 6y ago
  Time is a super sensitive topic. If you want to take things to their logical conclusion, we should be using a sort of UTC decimal time (10 hours in a day, 10 (was it 100? can't remember) minutes in an hour, 10 (same question as for minutes) seconds in a minute. Switching to a single timezone would mean that days are upside down. Imagine some timezone where the sun rises at 23:00 and sets at 13:00. Let alone the fact that a decent chunk of the world doesn't even use 24 hour time (I'm looking especially at you, US!).
  - function_seven 6y ago
    > Imagine some timezone where the sun rises at 23:00 and sets at 13:00 You just might convince me to adopt that kind of timekeeping, if "Monday" didn't suddenly become "Tuesday" while I was eating breakfast! But seriously, every time someone floats the idea of worldwide UTC, I can't imagine they've thought through all the new problems that would arise. We have different time zones, not because we're dumb. It's because the Earth is round. The time zones are an intrinsic property of {ball Earth} + {human biology} If we lived in Flatland, it wouldn't be an issue. If we were robots with no circadian rhythm or desire, then it wouldn't be an issue. But we're humans on a globe. Different locations are going to be out-of-sync no matter what. Might as well reflect that in our timekeeping. (EDIT: I'm agreeing with you, BTW. Just re-read this and it sounds kinda like I'm arguing with your comment. I'm not. I'm yelling at the strawman :)
  - butisaidsudo 6y ago
    Oh, this segues nicely from my DST, my favorite bikeshedding topic into my second favorite one! Base 12 is better than decimal in every way. It divides cleanly by 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and 12. Compare that to decimal, where you have 1, 2, 5, 10. It's much better for scheduling. With decimal you couldn't have a nice, clean schedule for a factory with 3 shifts per day for example. 60 minutes (which is a multiple of 12) gives you a lot of ways to break up an hour, vs 100 minutes. I had a friend once rant about how we should switch everything to base 12. It's obviously crazy given the effort vs reward, but I think we would have been better off to have done so way back when.
bjt2n3904 6y ago
Come senators, congressmen Please heed the call Don't stand in the doorway Don't block up the hall For he that gets hurt Will be he who has stalled The battle outside ragin' Will soon shake your windows And rattle your walls For the times they are a-changin' Hehe
acjohnson55 6y ago
As a night owl, I prefer DST. But PST would work too. Just please get rid of the time change.
Breefield 6y ago
Here is the link to the actual bill. I have it bookmarked https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69?s=1&r=7 https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69?s...
SloopJon 6y ago
The first few articles I could find on this topic neglected to identify the senators co-sponsoring the bill. Here's a list from boston.cbslocal.com: * Roy Blunt (R-MO) * Cindy Hyde-Smith (R-MS) * James Lankford (R-OK) * Ed Markey (D-MA) * Marco Rubio (R-FL) * Rick Scott (R-FL) * Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI) * Ron Wyden (D-OR) Wikipedia has some history on similar, short-lived efforts in the past: > Seasonal observation of DST was first enacted in the US during World Wars I and II, as an attempt conserve fuel. The practice was unpopular and promptly repealed after each war; however, lobbyists from the petroleum industry lobbied to restore DST, as they had noticed it actually increased fuel consumption. > Permanent DST in the US was briefly enacted by President Nixon in 1974, in response to the 1973 oil crisis. The proposal was initially supported by an estimated 79% of the public; that support dropped to 42% after its first winter, owing to the harshness of dark winter mornings that permanent DST creates. An estimated six school children were also killed by motorists due to the new law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_time_observation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_time_observation_in_... On the eastern edge of the enormous Eastern time zone, I'm sympathetic to permanent DST, but I'm not sure it's a good idea nationwide. I would probably be in favor of the proposed Atlantic time zone, though.
- ddlatham 6y ago
  Wow that's a huge shift in public support after the experience of a single winter. I wonder if we're doomed to repeat it.
  - pwg 6y ago
    I suspect if this were to go into effect, that yes, after the first winter on year-round DST, public opinion about the shift will change dramatically in a negative direction. No one has yet experienced DST in the winter, owing to the present practice of shifting to standard time over the winter months. The change in morning daylight in the winter months will be a big shocker if this is adopted.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      You're probably right. People at moderate latitudes--say 35+ degrees--mostly love their long summer evenings and they have tons of light in the morning anyway. And many may think they're fine with their cold dark winter mornings being a bit colder and darker in exchange for not having a time shift (and more light, such as it is, on the other end). But they actually aren't.
px43 6y ago
No, no, no. Just kill DST. Noon should be about when the sun is highest in the sky, not 1pm. Sunrise and sunset math is so much easier if solar noon happens around clock noon too, because sunrise and sunset are equally distant from noon. If the Sunset is around 7pm, then sunrise will be at (12-7) 5am. It makes no sense at all to have solar noon shifted one hour for the entire country, especially because for most of the world, solar noon happens around noon, for obvious reasons.
- echelon 6y ago
  > Noon should be about when the sun is highest in the sky, not 1pm. That's impossible to achieve across all latitudes and longitudes, and it's totally arbitrary and has zero benefit. Solar noon matters to precisely nobody. No one is looking at the sky to tell time. People want sunlight after work. They don't want to be depressed because they finish the day and it's dark outside. This benefits restaurants, retail, and many industries that thrive on increased leisure activity.
  - jmwilson 6y ago
    > That's impossible to achieve across all latitudes and longitudes, and it's totally arbitrary and has zero benefit. > Solar noon matters to precisely nobody. No one is looking at the sky to tell time. That's why the OP said "about when the sun is highest" not "exactly when the sun is highest". And it matters if you like the idea of midday being at, well, the middle of the day. Deliberately adding another ~4% error on top of whatever is there because of arbitrary time zone boundaries, and things begin to add up and eventually you end up like Spain. > People want sunlight after work. They don't want to be depressed because they finish the day and it's dark outside. To state the obvious, changing the clocks doesn't change the amount of daylight available. As another commenter said, if we've learned anything from the pandemic, maybe it's that we can be flexible about work hours instead of warping our sense of time and the rhythm of the day because managers and office workers can't fathom the idea of seasonal work hours.
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
wruza 6y ago
Did anyone consider pros and cons of shifting just by 10 minutes every month? 60 minutes per 6 months divides so nicely (and maybe unleashes hell to time duration calculations, but who cares). Edit: same for timezones.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ravi-delia 6y ago
  Pros: - No increase in heart attacks - Nice fluid shift from month to month - Minor errors less important Cons: - Rewriting of timezone code takes 8 years, claims over 800 lives as every programmer either quits or commits suicide after working on project for a few weeks - The staggeringly difficult to detect under low load timestamping errors cause constant stress for distributed systems engineers, making the job among the most deadly in the world.
  - wruza 6y ago
    Re cons, we already have tzdata with all irregularities like DSTs and leap seconds built in. I believe that it wouldn’t be so hard for libraries who already use tzdata. And those who don’t, they couldn’t handle time intervals properly anyway.
  - adolph 6y ago
    What's wrong with just using NTP? http://www.ntp.org/rfc.html http://www.ntp.org/rfc.html https://pypi.org/project/ntplib/ https://pypi.org/project/ntplib/ https://www.npmjs.com/package/ntp-client https://www.npmjs.com/package/ntp-client https://www.nuget.org/packages/Rebex.Time https://www.nuget.org/packages/Rebex.Time
- mtinkerhess 6y ago
  Let's take it one step farther, and have each second be 99.999% of a second from December 20 and June 20, and be 100.001% of a second from June 20 to December 20. Problem solved!
- mminer237 6y ago
BrandoElFollito 6y ago
This switching is finally over in France (and in the EU, each country had a choice). One last switch in March to summer time and we are done! I am fortunate to leave on the western edge of the timezone though.
- fanf2 6y ago
  The abolition of DST in Europe has not yet been confirmed - it seems to be stalled in the Council https://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes/summertime_en https://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes/summertime_en https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_time_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_time_in_Europe
  - BrandoElFollito 6y ago
    Ah crap, you are right. I was not aware that COVID stopped the DST decision, thanks. I was actually quite admiration of the EU to have made a decision, something they never do. But the the reality of this deeply dysfunctional institution hit again. To be clear, I am all for the EU as a concept, it is just that one can hardly expect the bureaucratic dinosaur that rules it to make swift decisions. Not to mention that the anti-EU parties that are not elected in the member countries, do get elected to the EU parliament. This is a heap of nonsense.
binarymax 6y ago
I love that in 50 years, the youth of that time will be taught that we used to change clocks twice a year, and they can laugh and wonder at the old-timey silliness of it all.
- aksss 6y ago
  well, it's largely automated now days.. I think my stove clock (aka the power outage event recorder) is the only clock I manually adjust these days.
  - theli0nheart 6y ago
    > well, it's largely automated now days This almost makes it sound more ridiculous. It shows that we could easily switch to a different system and yet choose not to.
  - maerF0x0 6y ago
    > well, it's largely automated now days Sure, but somehow far too much of our code doesn't work right during time changes. Also for timezones at all while we're being honest.
  - Grimm665 6y ago
    > aka the power outage event recorder Man this is so true lol
thehappypm 6y ago
This would benefit the Northeast quite a lot. Assume that your average adult works 9-5, and your average school child is in school 8-3. Broad strokes, these are the two groups to focus on. I know most adults commute earlier than 9, and most students are up earlier than 8, but it's safe to say that most Americans are up-and-at-'em from 8-5. On the shortest day of the year in Boston, sunrise is at 7:10am and sunset is at 4:14PM. Including civil twilight ("it's still kind of daytime") extends it to 6:38am to 4:46PM. Even on the shortest day of the year, if you wake up even before 7 you're waking up in daylight. But, sunset is super early. Every working adult is commuting home in actual nighttime. Shift that forward 1 hour, and it gets light at 7:30AM and gets dark at 5:45PM. While slightly darker for students in the morning, it's immensely better for working adults, who at least get some daylight in the evenings, and not actual nighttime before 5PM.
- 3JPLW 6y ago
  Benefits are highly regional. Where I live, the current latest sunrise is 8:06 am on December 5. I can't imagine a sunrise after 9am being very fun.
  - thehappypm 6y ago
    Agreed. I bet a lot of places would simply switch timezones if DST was removed.
    - neltnerb 6y ago
      And some places should actually just be in different timezones. In Boston the latest sunrise is at 7:15am on Jan 2nd. However, the earliest sunset is at 4:11pm on December 6th. If it were 8:15am to 5:11pm at the worst on either end, I know I at least would be less irritable.
  - NeutronStar 6y ago
    It's also been done in 1976 and it barely lasted one year. Turns out no sunlight at 8am is worse than no sunlight at 5pm
  - 6y ago
gegtik 6y ago
Has anyone considered how many IT systems are going to need to be updated to account for this change? This is a little Y2k IT bubble waiting to happen. If this is proactively folded into overhauling systems for the 2038 problem I could stomach it
- mynameisvlad 6y ago
  Time zone updates happen all the time. The latest version was released in January: https://www.iana.org/time-zones https://www.iana.org/time-zones
- erichurkman 6y ago
  This happened in 2005 when the federal government changed the start & end dates of DST. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005#Change_to_daylight_saving_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005#Chan...
- mattmanser 6y ago
  This happens all the time. Governments regularly change DST start dates with little to no warning. If you think this is a problem, you don't deal with dates.
lowercased 6y ago
Gear everybody up to split the difference and at one point, push the time either 30 minutes forward or back, and be done with it, forever. Give everyone... 18 months to prepare.
tempestn 6y ago
I support the change, but the timeline seems a bit unrealistic to me. There are a lot of systems that will need to be updated to not expect time changes, and knowing how long such things tend to take, expecting everything to be ready within a few months (minus however long the bill actually took to pass) seems unlikely. Plus ideally you'd give other jurisdictions like Canada and Mexico a chance to see if they want to come along. I'd think planning to keep DST in 2022 would be a lot more realistic than planning to never change again as of now.
- jedberg 6y ago
  Time zones change multiple times a year throughout the globe. For example, the time zone database changed five times in 2020. If your time code doesn't already depend on an externally updating time database, you're already doing it wrong.
  - tempestn 6y ago
    Yeah, I know in theory that's the case (although I didn't realize how often time zones changed). I still expect there will be problems on that timeline. As for how serious they would be or how much difference an extra year would make, I don't know.
    - jedberg 6y ago
      I recently change the subnet my house network runs on. 90% of my devices just switched with DHCP, but there were a couple of laggards. It was a good exercise in figuring out where I had gotten lazy with my setup. I feel like this would be a good exercise in how we handle clocks. :)
Stratoscope 6y ago
Anyone interested in this topic may enjoy this book: Spring Forward: The Annual Madness of Daylight Saving Time https://smile.amazon.com/dp/1582434956 https://smile.amazon.com/dp/1582434956 Alas, there is no Kindle edition nor a "look inside" preview, but I found the book very interesting.
SeanLuke 6y ago
Why are we making DST permanent rather than making the standard time permanent?
- mminer237 6y ago
  People like the sunshine. Getting rid of DST means you're always getting off work at 5:00 either in the dark or an hour or two before dark. Making it always DST means 5 o'clock will be before sunset year-round.
  - briandear 6y ago
    Why is five o’clock the arbitrary getting off work time?
    - mminer237 6y ago
      Historical reasons: American society has settled on 40 hours being the appropriate amount of work for the average person. Starting near the beginning of the day at 9:00 meant 8 hours later people would get off at 5:00. I've heard Ford started that convention, but I haven't really researched it. But I think business hours are now very firmly entrenched in American society and that it would be very difficult to change that convention.
- theodric 6y ago
  Light in the evening when you can use it, rather than during the day when you're stuck on conference calls. Also, 'standard' offsets to GMT are fairly arbitrary anyway. We're not going to get employers to change operating hours, so it's paradoxically simpler to change the hours themselves.
  - globular-toast 6y ago
    What about all the people who work outside and need sunlight?
    - 6y ago
breck 6y ago
In Hawai'i time only goes in one direction and it makes life easier.
jedmeyers 6y ago
Some states, like Washington, have already introduced permanent DST. The only thing they lack is federal permission to stay on DST. States can already permanently stay on non-DST time, like most of AZ does.
mey 6y ago
I'm not sure if this would introduce more or less bugs in software. It would at least make this Google Cloud SQL for MySQL issue less annoying. They don't support tz_info, so you have to manually adjust for DST offsets. Guess what I'm doing this weekend at 2/3am PDT/PST? https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/74600960 https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/74600960
annoyingnoob 6y ago
Yes, please.
baron816 6y ago
Just abolish time altogether
shmerl 6y ago
Dropping the switch itself is a good idea. But to which one to stick to is more moot.
Robotbeat 6y ago
I don’t care if you eliminate DST or make it permanent. One or the other. Just do it.
khalilravanna 6y ago
I'm another in the camp of "Why not standard time?" It seems like a lot of experts agree Standard Time is more healthy. Plus two whole countries (admittedly in Europe) tried permanent DST and either stopped it or flipped to permanent Standard Time. So is this just an uninformed position we're pushing forward or is the US truly unique? Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time
- tonfa 6y ago
  At least france and spain are at DST or more the whole year (winter is DST and summer is DST++). I haven't heard people clamoring for moving out of winter DST (actually permanent DST++ is kinda popular since it's now part of the culture to have late leisure time)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- presentation 6y ago
  Also, I'm based in Asia, and it would help me have more times for meetings with my US teammates without having to wake up super early :) Not looking forward to next week onward...
- Viliam1234 6y ago
  Could there be a compromise solution possible like, dunno, using Standard Time half of the year and Daylight Saving Time the other half? Just kidding, of course. Yeah, I'm in the same camp. If you need to wake up earlier, tell people to wake up earlier, do not redefine time. What's next, redefining meter, because sticks shorter than one meter are more convenient to use? Businesses would probably lobby to redefine time, so we can work more, while nominally having 8-hour workdays.
- abandonliberty 6y ago
  "Tried it and flipped" is pretty weak. They had complaints. I'm sure there were complaints both ways. Maybe arguing that something is 'default' is easier. This evidence isn't really compelling in either direction. In any case, we should just all switch to UTC. Software development and global trade would benefit.
MattSayar 6y ago
I'm just so, so thankful I don't maintain any kind of time zone libraries https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b923ca https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b...
- tshaddox 6y ago
  Fair enough, I probably wouldn’t enjoy that work either! But it’s important to note that changes in the local timekeeping rules of various regions is precisely what the tz database is designed to handle. As far as I can tell, this rule change would be straightforward to enter into the tz database and to use for any software that’s already using the tz database. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tz_database https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tz_database
FunnyLookinHat 6y ago
For the sake of every parent of a child under the age of 5 - please pass this. Twice a year we have to spend an entire week slowly shifting sleep schedules in the hopes of a successful switch. :)
- jedberg 6y ago
  Melatonin is safe for kids. It's what we use for the spring time change (and international travel).
jb775 6y ago
> Opponents of the bill say DST makes it hard on school children and parents who have to wait at the bus stop in dark hours of the morning. We should also push back school start times at least 1 hour. Studies have shown kids benefit from this, mostly as a result of getting more sleep. School starting times have historically been pegged to the time most parents begin their work commute. Since many parents no longer have a commute, it makes even more sense to push back starting times.
- pkulak 6y ago
  Push back school, and you have to push back work (no, not everyone can work from home). And then you have to push back entertainment. And then everything else. And then you've changed the clocks, but in a worse, more complicated way.
  - shados 6y ago
    Not everyone can work from home, but tons and tons of people can't work 9 to 5 either. We can instead start agreeing that the current system is pretty broken. When I was in elementary school, my parents had to start work much earlier than school started (at some point my mother was a school bus driver. Kinds of rule that out no matter how much you shift the school day!). So I was just waiting alone for the bus for a few hours. It was boring as hell, not gonna lie.
  - jb775 6y ago
    We should push back work, but still end at the same time. We've been programmed to accept 9-5 salaried jobs (which is actually 8-5 or 9-6 for most people not including commute) but on a macro level it's been proven employees are receiving less and less of the pie. Fuck them, let's work less and enjoy more of life with ppl you care about.
VoodooJuJu 6y ago
Respect waking with the rising sun and banish DST for good. We should instead be working toward adjusting that archaic and arbitrary 8-4/9-5 versus changing the clocks around.
- tomekjapan 6y ago
  Yes, this is the right way to solve it. Forcing DST on everyone in winter without adjusting school starting times is a horrible and selfish idea.
fitzie 6y ago
anyone who works with people in other countries will appreciate this, recurring meetings are always an issue with various countries going in an out of daylight savings. after fixing this, I'd like to see the entire country move to a single timezone. that would be a vast improvement as well.
happyconcepts 6y ago
Such priorities for these politicians. While people are sick and dying they merely... adjust their watches. But that's not enough so they legislate it for the rest of us too. Such priorities.
jazzdev 6y ago
Fatal car accidents in the United States spike by 6% during the workweek following the "spring forward" to daylight saving time, resulting in about 28 additional deaths each year. [1] 1 = https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/01/200130144410.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/01/200130144410.h...
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  I would suggest that is correlated with sleep deprivation rather than lightness/darkness as following weeks evidently the rate returns to basically the same. That would not be true if the darkness was the issue.
jobigoud 6y ago
Just move to the standrad time of the next timezone. Why make it so complicated by using this bastardized "Permanent DST"? If your timezone is officially UTC-5+1 all year long, you might as well simplify to UTC-4...
PhilosAccnting 6y ago
I would love for someone more well-versed to correct me on this, but I remember reading a decade ago about how the Roman priesthood (the calendar-keepers) would fudge with the dates to conform to their political desires, ranging from 200-500 days at the most extreme. The fact that we can consolidate this down to only disagreeing on how to set our hours is what I'd call progress![1] [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_calendars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_calendars
amai 6y ago
Russia did that in 2011 and then reverted the decision in 2014. Now Russia has standard time all year long. "The 2011 move to impose permanent “summer time” ... forced tens of millions to straggle to their jobs in pitch darkness during the winter months. In the depths of December, the sun didn’t clear the horizon in Moscow until 10 a.m." https://apnews.com/article/7b85f8edc6d84ee087d3aa3880cc6af7 https://apnews.com/article/7b85f8edc6d84ee087d3aa3880cc6af7

512 points by prostoalex 6y ago

All this is really doing is forcing everyone to wake up earlier in the morning. You're basically calling what is now 7am, 8am. Instead of forcing schools and companies to start earlier, you just repaint the clocks so these institutions will go with this without resisting. We already know that many children suffer academically, socially, psychologically because they don't get enough sleep. How many employees also suffer because of this? About a third of people are not "morning people" and get most of their productivity and mental clarity later in the day. These people will suffer the most and at the expense of those who are naturally inclined to be most productive earlier in the day. We shouldn't do this. We should do the opposite and end daylight savings for even half the year. Let companies choose to start earlier if they want in March if they want more light for their employees. Some companies will do this and some won't. Those companies that do will attract those who are morning people. The companies that don't will attract the opposite. Stop allowing a small group of morning people force what works for them onto everyone else.

Thorentis 6y ago

I much prefer sleeping when it gets dark, and this fits in much better with our body's circadian rhythm. If doing things in the dark is such an issue, why not change business/school hours to work around that? Who decided that 9-5 is the optimal time to do business? Why should we disrupt our body's natural attunement to daylight just because our bosses won't let us leave until it's already dark? Why not look at "summer business hours" instead of "daylight time"?

ravi-delia 6y ago
All of that is correct, very smart, and impossible to implement from the top. At this point the idiotic way to do things is just too ingrained. All that can be done is play with DST a little.
watwut 6y ago
Most od the year, if not whole year, there is dark long before going to sleep.

lproberts 6y ago

So the morning people may win yet another round, after having so many advantages already. Of course they cannot go to work at 7 instead of 8. No, everyone has to jump and tamper with the natural time.

seniorsassycat 6y ago
Are you arguing for adjusting clocks by an hour twice a year as natural time?
- lproberts 6y ago
  No, I'm for keeping the natural time that is called "winter time" these days all year long. People who want their DST in the summer should just get up one hour earlier; laws would need to be made that jobs have to accommodate that choice. I think most jobs are that flexible these days.
  - thelean12 6y ago
    > I think most jobs are that flexible these days. Are you joking?
    - Jtsummers 6y ago
      Presumably they're in the salaried middle class bubble. Most hourly workers, factory workers, and service workers have no or little choice or flexibility with their schedules.
  - seniorsassycat 6y ago
    I don't care much if a state chooses daylight or standard time, I don't want to change zones twice a year.
watwut 6y ago
What are you talking about. Everyone praises a guy who stays late basically regardless of when he came in. No one praises dude that comes in soon.

paxys 6y ago

> Opponents of the bill say DST makes it hard on school children and parents who have to wait at the bus stop in dark hours of the morning. Here's an idea - let students (and parents) sleep for an additional hour rather than make them wake up before the crack of dawn for no reason.

DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
> Opponents of the bill say DST makes it hard on school children and parents who have to wait at the bus stop in dark hours of the morning. Probably easier to just give them all flashlights, than to have everyone shift their clocks to accommodate this use case.
- croes 6y ago
  How about standard time instead of DST especially in winter
  - garmaine 6y ago
    Or here’s an idea: we can do DST in the summer, and standard time in the winter. Best of both worlds!
    - croes 6y ago
      The problem is the switch, so it's better to get rid of it and then Standard Time is the better choice
      - garmaine 6y ago
        This argument makes less and less sense with each passing year. I'm old enough to remember when we had to change all the clocks by hand, and some people had no idea how to change the clocks in microwaves and VCRs or their car, so it'd be off by an hour for half the year. Somehow we managed fine. These days all clocks change automatically, and there are standard and constantly improving datetime libraries to help applications manage these human factors in a standard way. Your morning alarm is automatically updated, you calendar events automatically reflect the timezone they are defined in. The only curveball is when when the government arbitrarily changes the rules, like then did not too long ago in extending DST. And which DST advocates are advocating for doing _again_.

TheCraiggers 6y ago

> "Sunshine Protection Act" Gag me with a token ring card. I hate these bill names, if for no other reason than it introduces severe bias in voting. Anybody voting against this now hates sunshine, freedom, etc. That said, I'm eager for this to pass so I never have to deal with a time change again.

exabrial 6y ago
Like ISA or SFP? Two totally different levels of effort. PS I hate sunshine.
- YarickR2 6y ago
  Hold the vampire, bring garlic !
- WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
  > PS I hate sunshine Likewise. The only good weather is whatever obscures the giant, glowy, migraine-inducing, cancer ball in the sky.
ironmagma 6y ago
They should just name bills like they name cloud servers. Vote yes on mystical-quagmire-cheesepuff!
- rglover 6y ago
  You joke but this is a great idea.
  - goldenchrome 6y ago
    No it’s absolutely not a great idea.
    - junon 6y ago
      You must not like awkward, magical balls of fermented milk.

gh123man 6y ago

DST has become my favorite "holiday" as an adult. Seasonal depression evaporates when I can see the sun after I finish working for the day. I can go work in my yard, or wash my car after work instead of having to cram it in the middle of the day. I feel more motivated to go do other things in the evening instead of feeling like its time for bed at 5pm.

eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 6y ago
The same could be achieved by having different work hours in different seasons, no need to change the underlying metric of time to achieve this. It's as if we redefined the density of water in winter so when you measure a frozen container of it the different volume yields the same weight. It might have made sense when there was a single clock in a whole village! But now with the planet probably containing 10x as many clocks as humans this is just complete lunacy.
- ravi-delia 6y ago
  Honestly, you're absolutely right. But we don't get to decide between a permanent DST and a unified switchover of business hours across the nation, we get to decide between a permanent DST and the crappy situation we have now. I, for one, would be measurably happier if I had more daytime after 5, because getting one bill passed is a whole lot easier than convincing every single scheduling body that has power over me to switch on a seasonal basis.
- saalweachter 6y ago
  > It's as if we redefined the density of water in winter so when you measure a frozen container of it the different volume yields the same weight. Oddly, this is exactly how the US "bushel" was defined -- it measures a mass of a specific type of grain at a particular moisture content, the idea being that the "quantity" of grain shouldn't change as it is dried.
  - eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 6y ago
    The density of water is also temperature-dependent :) My point is that the chain of determining the measurement of a natural value should start at the value, not at what we want it to be to then bend the value over backwards to be that then. So the example doesn't fall apart with a temperature-/moisture-dependent constant: The point is that the constant should not be arbitrarily changed to achieve a desired value. The constant should be measured/defined and stay as such.

Zak 6y ago

One thing that comes up every time this is discussed is that it has different impacts on people depending on their latitude. A solution that does not come up all that often is adding latitude-based time zones, and I'd be interested to read some thoughts on it from the HN community. Edit: as this was ambiguous to at least one commenter, I'm not proposing replacing the current longitude-based time zones, but splitting them or shifting their boundaries based on latitude.

Ensorceled 6y ago
So London, England would be in the same timezone as Moosenee, Canada and Irkutsk, Russia? EDIT: This checkerboard would be very difficult to deal with. Also, people in northern or southern latitudes are used to extremes in day lengths. But, fundamentally, timezones are so that "noon" is about when the sun is overhead for you. People at the same longitude still have the same noontime regardless of when the sun rises or sets.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  Not the above poster, but I suspect they were referring to the fact that in higher latitudes day lengths are affected much more by seasonal swings than areas closer to the equator. So the reasons for having DST to begin with becomes more exaggerated at those latitudes.
  - Ensorceled 6y ago
    I know, I live in Canada. I'm trying to figure out what they are proposing.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      Not entirely sure what that exactly that would mean either.
- Zak 6y ago
  No, but Moosonee, Canada might be in a different time zone from Key West, FL (they are currently in the same time zone).

staunch 6y ago

This would be great. Could we go so far as to have the entire whole world operate on UTC, so we could have an Earth Time?

wbc 6y ago
agreed! based on the amount of "time" i've wasted converting timezones in code, i tell everyone that'd listen we should just teach kids to memorize unix timestamps and these problems would all go away
lucasmullens 6y ago
Sounds great in theory, but it becomes too hard to know what times are "early" and "late" for people. When telling people what time it is, you'd also have to include where you are so they know what's early/late, and at that point you've just reinvented timezones.
- staunch 6y ago
  For the billions of people with smart phones, wouldn't this be very easily solved with a default app?
  - function_seven 6y ago
    Like it is now? Sure. So then what benefit are you looking for in changing everyone to UTC?
makeworld 6y ago
Abolishing time zones has a lot of problems. https://qntm.org/abolish https://qntm.org/abolish
- staunch 6y ago
  Yeah, of course there are trade offs, and that's not a balanced run down of them. Most of the issues raised there seem easily addressed in the modern world.

alborzb 6y ago

> Our European visitors are important to us. This site is currently unavailable to visitors from Europe ... Does anybody have an alt mirror for this please? Genuinely interested, but can't view the news update from Europe.

samizdis 6y ago
Here you go: https://archive.is/femP9 https://archive.is/femP9 A bit disappointing, though. There's not much to the article. Edited to add: There's more substance in this article in the Boston Globe: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/10/nation/think-daylight-saving-time-should-be-year-round-ed-markey-other-senators-do-too/ https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/10/nation/think-daylight...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mdaniel 6y ago
Are they all doing that, or just the one URL in the link? https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Sunshine+Protection+Act&iar=news&ia=news https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Sunshine+Protection+Act&iar=news&i...

fattybob 6y ago

rather silly i feel, why not spend money on researching slowing the earths rotation! or maybe just wake up later all year round. Or - abandon GMT and pick a spot like Paris, maybe you can call it the new "Euro time" - that way Britain can happily ignore it and stay with GMT.

falcolas 6y ago

Like they've done (or Congress has done) every year for the past decade or so, only for it to die in-situ.

seniorsassycat 6y ago

At the very least let states choose to use daylight or standard time. Federal law allows states to permanently adopt standard time, but prohibits the year-round adoption of daylight time. Washington passed a law to adopt permanent daylight savings in 2019 but it was contingent on changes to Federal law. I'm not familiar with the federal laws governing timezones but I've wondered if Washington could have adopted Mountain Standard Time, which is the same as Pacific Daylight Time, without Federal approval. EDIT: seems Department of Transportation can assign timezone based on petition from state government. https://www.transportation.gov/regulations/procedure-moving-area-one-time-zone-another https://www.transportation.gov/regulations/procedure-moving-...

cafard 6y ago
Arizona does not change its clocks. It could therefore be considered to be on PDT or MST depending on the season.
- seniorsassycat 6y ago
  https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zone/usa/arizona https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zone/usa/arizona > Most of Arizona observes Mountain Standard Time (MST) all year. However, because the Navajo Nation observes Daylight Saving Time (DST), the corresponding DST designation, Mountain Daylight Time (MDT) is also listed here. > There is a common misconception that Arizona is on Pacific Daylight Time (PDT) during the summer and on Mountain Standard Time (MST) during the winter. Because MST and PDT have the same UTC offset of minus 7 hours (UTC-7), Arizona has the same local time as neighboring states California and Nevada during the summer season.
  - 8note 6y ago
    I don't see why the state should be able to force a timezone on the Navajo Nation. They're more of a state than Arizona is
    - khwrethgklhw123 6y ago

SamBam 6y ago

I find the idea crazy. I get DST, I understand its benefits. But I think it only makes sense because it's not the norm. Because it's not the norm, we get used to the time for half the year, stick with our long-established timetables, and then want more evening sunlight in the summer. Making it permanent means we are saying that even 100 years from now, children will ask "why isn't the sun at the top of the sky at noon?" and we'll say "a hundred years ago people thought it was easier to permanently change the clocks because businesses would never, ever let people go home at 4:00." I think that, if the pandemic and a year from remote work and school has taught us anything, it's that getting people to stop work or school an hour earlier is actually within our grasp. (Speaking of which, it's 4:00. I'm going to get off the computer now.)

treespace88 6y ago
While I agree moving to permanent DST is kinda nuts. It’s less nuts then flipping clocks twice a year. Once we have stopped flipping we can then move back to Standard time at a future date. Fighting insanity one battle at a time.
weaksauce 6y ago
Where I am there is a two fold component to it... you have shorter usable days in the winter AND you also have earlier darkness for people because they shift it one hour earlier. that means that you go to work when it's dark out and come home when it's dark out. having an "extra" hour after work to relax would be a win. permanent DST is a win in my book.
brainfish 6y ago
What tangible benefit does society gain from the sun being straight up at noon? Furthermore, how is this a valid argument when timezones are +/- an hour wide, meaning that even if local noon == noon in one part of the timezone, that is not true in other parts of the same timezone? This is the worst reasoning to base this decision on.
- throw0101a 6y ago
  It helps with circadian rhythms. I seem to post this for every DST story, so I might as well continue the tradition: The folks who study this: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology Seem to have come to a consensus that if we're going to get rid of DST, then health-wise it is best to have Standard Time year-round: > As an international organization of scientists dedicated to studying circadian and other biological rhythms, the Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) engaged experts in the field to write a Position Paper on the consequences of choosing to live on DST or Standard Time (ST). The authors take the position that, based on comparisons of large populations living in DST or ST or on western versus eastern edges of time zones, the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently. * https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0748730419854197 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541... For a longer-read, referencing quite a bit of academic literature, but a conclusionary snippet: > In summary, the scientific literature strongly argues against the switching between DST and Standard Time and even more so against adopting DST permanently. The latter would exaggerate all the effects described above /beyond/ the simple extension of DST from approximately 8 months/year to 12 months/year (depending on country) since /body clocks/ are generally even later during winter than during the long photoperiods of summer (with DST) (Kantermann et al., 2007; Hadlow et al., 2014, 2018; Hashizaki et al., 2018). Perennial DST increases SJL prevalence even more, as described above. * https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2019.00944/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2019.0094... Other position papers that I've dug up over the years when curiosity got the better of me: > Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) is dedicated to advancing rigorous, peer-reviewed science and evidence-based policies related to sleep and circadian biology. * https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ * (refs, with pro and con): https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DST-References-SRBRPressKit.pdf https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DST-References-S... European Sleep Research Society: * https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commission_on_DST.pdf https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commiss... American Academy of Sleep Medicine (with 36 footnotes if you want to dig further): * https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 * https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.8780 The Centre for Chronobiology, based at the Psychiatric University Hospital (University of Basel): * http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-DST.pdf http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-D... * http://www.chronobiology.ch/ http://www.chronobiology.ch/

meepmorp 6y ago

Just take things to the logical conclusion - everyone should switch to UTC and quit all this screwing around with timezones and clock changes.

oblio 6y ago
Time is a super sensitive topic. If you want to take things to their logical conclusion, we should be using a sort of UTC decimal time (10 hours in a day, 10 (was it 100? can't remember) minutes in an hour, 10 (same question as for minutes) seconds in a minute. Switching to a single timezone would mean that days are upside down. Imagine some timezone where the sun rises at 23:00 and sets at 13:00. Let alone the fact that a decent chunk of the world doesn't even use 24 hour time (I'm looking especially at you, US!).
- function_seven 6y ago
  > Imagine some timezone where the sun rises at 23:00 and sets at 13:00 You just might convince me to adopt that kind of timekeeping, if "Monday" didn't suddenly become "Tuesday" while I was eating breakfast! But seriously, every time someone floats the idea of worldwide UTC, I can't imagine they've thought through all the new problems that would arise. We have different time zones, not because we're dumb. It's because the Earth is round. The time zones are an intrinsic property of {ball Earth} + {human biology} If we lived in Flatland, it wouldn't be an issue. If we were robots with no circadian rhythm or desire, then it wouldn't be an issue. But we're humans on a globe. Different locations are going to be out-of-sync no matter what. Might as well reflect that in our timekeeping. (EDIT: I'm agreeing with you, BTW. Just re-read this and it sounds kinda like I'm arguing with your comment. I'm not. I'm yelling at the strawman :)
- butisaidsudo 6y ago
  Oh, this segues nicely from my DST, my favorite bikeshedding topic into my second favorite one! Base 12 is better than decimal in every way. It divides cleanly by 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and 12. Compare that to decimal, where you have 1, 2, 5, 10. It's much better for scheduling. With decimal you couldn't have a nice, clean schedule for a factory with 3 shifts per day for example. 60 minutes (which is a multiple of 12) gives you a lot of ways to break up an hour, vs 100 minutes. I had a friend once rant about how we should switch everything to base 12. It's obviously crazy given the effort vs reward, but I think we would have been better off to have done so way back when.

bjt2n3904 6y ago

Come senators, congressmen Please heed the call Don't stand in the doorway Don't block up the hall For he that gets hurt Will be he who has stalled The battle outside ragin' Will soon shake your windows And rattle your walls For the times they are a-changin' Hehe

acjohnson55 6y ago

As a night owl, I prefer DST. But PST would work too. Just please get rid of the time change.

Breefield 6y ago

Here is the link to the actual bill. I have it bookmarked https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69?s=1&r=7 https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69?s...

SloopJon 6y ago

The first few articles I could find on this topic neglected to identify the senators co-sponsoring the bill. Here's a list from boston.cbslocal.com: * Roy Blunt (R-MO) * Cindy Hyde-Smith (R-MS) * James Lankford (R-OK) * Ed Markey (D-MA) * Marco Rubio (R-FL) * Rick Scott (R-FL) * Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI) * Ron Wyden (D-OR) Wikipedia has some history on similar, short-lived efforts in the past: > Seasonal observation of DST was first enacted in the US during World Wars I and II, as an attempt conserve fuel. The practice was unpopular and promptly repealed after each war; however, lobbyists from the petroleum industry lobbied to restore DST, as they had noticed it actually increased fuel consumption. > Permanent DST in the US was briefly enacted by President Nixon in 1974, in response to the 1973 oil crisis. The proposal was initially supported by an estimated 79% of the public; that support dropped to 42% after its first winter, owing to the harshness of dark winter mornings that permanent DST creates. An estimated six school children were also killed by motorists due to the new law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_time_observation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_time_observation_in_... On the eastern edge of the enormous Eastern time zone, I'm sympathetic to permanent DST, but I'm not sure it's a good idea nationwide. I would probably be in favor of the proposed Atlantic time zone, though.

ddlatham 6y ago
Wow that's a huge shift in public support after the experience of a single winter. I wonder if we're doomed to repeat it.
- pwg 6y ago
  I suspect if this were to go into effect, that yes, after the first winter on year-round DST, public opinion about the shift will change dramatically in a negative direction. No one has yet experienced DST in the winter, owing to the present practice of shifting to standard time over the winter months. The change in morning daylight in the winter months will be a big shocker if this is adopted.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    You're probably right. People at moderate latitudes--say 35+ degrees--mostly love their long summer evenings and they have tons of light in the morning anyway. And many may think they're fine with their cold dark winter mornings being a bit colder and darker in exchange for not having a time shift (and more light, such as it is, on the other end). But they actually aren't.

px43 6y ago

No, no, no. Just kill DST. Noon should be about when the sun is highest in the sky, not 1pm. Sunrise and sunset math is so much easier if solar noon happens around clock noon too, because sunrise and sunset are equally distant from noon. If the Sunset is around 7pm, then sunrise will be at (12-7) 5am. It makes no sense at all to have solar noon shifted one hour for the entire country, especially because for most of the world, solar noon happens around noon, for obvious reasons.

echelon 6y ago
> Noon should be about when the sun is highest in the sky, not 1pm. That's impossible to achieve across all latitudes and longitudes, and it's totally arbitrary and has zero benefit. Solar noon matters to precisely nobody. No one is looking at the sky to tell time. People want sunlight after work. They don't want to be depressed because they finish the day and it's dark outside. This benefits restaurants, retail, and many industries that thrive on increased leisure activity.
- jmwilson 6y ago
  > That's impossible to achieve across all latitudes and longitudes, and it's totally arbitrary and has zero benefit. > Solar noon matters to precisely nobody. No one is looking at the sky to tell time. That's why the OP said "about when the sun is highest" not "exactly when the sun is highest". And it matters if you like the idea of midday being at, well, the middle of the day. Deliberately adding another ~4% error on top of whatever is there because of arbitrary time zone boundaries, and things begin to add up and eventually you end up like Spain. > People want sunlight after work. They don't want to be depressed because they finish the day and it's dark outside. To state the obvious, changing the clocks doesn't change the amount of daylight available. As another commenter said, if we've learned anything from the pandemic, maybe it's that we can be flexible about work hours instead of warping our sense of time and the rhythm of the day because managers and office workers can't fathom the idea of seasonal work hours.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago

wruza 6y ago

Did anyone consider pros and cons of shifting just by 10 minutes every month? 60 minutes per 6 months divides so nicely (and maybe unleashes hell to time duration calculations, but who cares). Edit: same for timezones.

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ravi-delia 6y ago
Pros: - No increase in heart attacks - Nice fluid shift from month to month - Minor errors less important Cons: - Rewriting of timezone code takes 8 years, claims over 800 lives as every programmer either quits or commits suicide after working on project for a few weeks - The staggeringly difficult to detect under low load timestamping errors cause constant stress for distributed systems engineers, making the job among the most deadly in the world.
- wruza 6y ago
  Re cons, we already have tzdata with all irregularities like DSTs and leap seconds built in. I believe that it wouldn’t be so hard for libraries who already use tzdata. And those who don’t, they couldn’t handle time intervals properly anyway.
- adolph 6y ago
  What's wrong with just using NTP? http://www.ntp.org/rfc.html http://www.ntp.org/rfc.html https://pypi.org/project/ntplib/ https://pypi.org/project/ntplib/ https://www.npmjs.com/package/ntp-client https://www.npmjs.com/package/ntp-client https://www.nuget.org/packages/Rebex.Time https://www.nuget.org/packages/Rebex.Time
mtinkerhess 6y ago
Let's take it one step farther, and have each second be 99.999% of a second from December 20 and June 20, and be 100.001% of a second from June 20 to December 20. Problem solved!
mminer237 6y ago

BrandoElFollito 6y ago

This switching is finally over in France (and in the EU, each country had a choice). One last switch in March to summer time and we are done! I am fortunate to leave on the western edge of the timezone though.

fanf2 6y ago
The abolition of DST in Europe has not yet been confirmed - it seems to be stalled in the Council https://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes/summertime_en https://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes/summertime_en https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_time_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_time_in_Europe
- BrandoElFollito 6y ago
  Ah crap, you are right. I was not aware that COVID stopped the DST decision, thanks. I was actually quite admiration of the EU to have made a decision, something they never do. But the the reality of this deeply dysfunctional institution hit again. To be clear, I am all for the EU as a concept, it is just that one can hardly expect the bureaucratic dinosaur that rules it to make swift decisions. Not to mention that the anti-EU parties that are not elected in the member countries, do get elected to the EU parliament. This is a heap of nonsense.

binarymax 6y ago

I love that in 50 years, the youth of that time will be taught that we used to change clocks twice a year, and they can laugh and wonder at the old-timey silliness of it all.

aksss 6y ago
well, it's largely automated now days.. I think my stove clock (aka the power outage event recorder) is the only clock I manually adjust these days.
- theli0nheart 6y ago
  > well, it's largely automated now days This almost makes it sound more ridiculous. It shows that we could easily switch to a different system and yet choose not to.
- maerF0x0 6y ago
  > well, it's largely automated now days Sure, but somehow far too much of our code doesn't work right during time changes. Also for timezones at all while we're being honest.
- Grimm665 6y ago
  > aka the power outage event recorder Man this is so true lol

thehappypm 6y ago

This would benefit the Northeast quite a lot. Assume that your average adult works 9-5, and your average school child is in school 8-3. Broad strokes, these are the two groups to focus on. I know most adults commute earlier than 9, and most students are up earlier than 8, but it's safe to say that most Americans are up-and-at-'em from 8-5. On the shortest day of the year in Boston, sunrise is at 7:10am and sunset is at 4:14PM. Including civil twilight ("it's still kind of daytime") extends it to 6:38am to 4:46PM. Even on the shortest day of the year, if you wake up even before 7 you're waking up in daylight. But, sunset is super early. Every working adult is commuting home in actual nighttime. Shift that forward 1 hour, and it gets light at 7:30AM and gets dark at 5:45PM. While slightly darker for students in the morning, it's immensely better for working adults, who at least get some daylight in the evenings, and not actual nighttime before 5PM.

3JPLW 6y ago
Benefits are highly regional. Where I live, the current latest sunrise is 8:06 am on December 5. I can't imagine a sunrise after 9am being very fun.
- thehappypm 6y ago
  Agreed. I bet a lot of places would simply switch timezones if DST was removed.
  - neltnerb 6y ago
    And some places should actually just be in different timezones. In Boston the latest sunrise is at 7:15am on Jan 2nd. However, the earliest sunset is at 4:11pm on December 6th. If it were 8:15am to 5:11pm at the worst on either end, I know I at least would be less irritable.
- NeutronStar 6y ago
  It's also been done in 1976 and it barely lasted one year. Turns out no sunlight at 8am is worse than no sunlight at 5pm
- 6y ago

gegtik 6y ago

Has anyone considered how many IT systems are going to need to be updated to account for this change? This is a little Y2k IT bubble waiting to happen. If this is proactively folded into overhauling systems for the 2038 problem I could stomach it

mynameisvlad 6y ago
Time zone updates happen all the time. The latest version was released in January: https://www.iana.org/time-zones https://www.iana.org/time-zones
erichurkman 6y ago
This happened in 2005 when the federal government changed the start & end dates of DST. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005#Change_to_daylight_saving_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005#Chan...
mattmanser 6y ago
This happens all the time. Governments regularly change DST start dates with little to no warning. If you think this is a problem, you don't deal with dates.

lowercased 6y ago

Gear everybody up to split the difference and at one point, push the time either 30 minutes forward or back, and be done with it, forever. Give everyone... 18 months to prepare.

tempestn 6y ago

I support the change, but the timeline seems a bit unrealistic to me. There are a lot of systems that will need to be updated to not expect time changes, and knowing how long such things tend to take, expecting everything to be ready within a few months (minus however long the bill actually took to pass) seems unlikely. Plus ideally you'd give other jurisdictions like Canada and Mexico a chance to see if they want to come along. I'd think planning to keep DST in 2022 would be a lot more realistic than planning to never change again as of now.

jedberg 6y ago
Time zones change multiple times a year throughout the globe. For example, the time zone database changed five times in 2020. If your time code doesn't already depend on an externally updating time database, you're already doing it wrong.
- tempestn 6y ago
  Yeah, I know in theory that's the case (although I didn't realize how often time zones changed). I still expect there will be problems on that timeline. As for how serious they would be or how much difference an extra year would make, I don't know.
  - jedberg 6y ago
    I recently change the subnet my house network runs on. 90% of my devices just switched with DHCP, but there were a couple of laggards. It was a good exercise in figuring out where I had gotten lazy with my setup. I feel like this would be a good exercise in how we handle clocks. :)

Stratoscope 6y ago

Anyone interested in this topic may enjoy this book: Spring Forward: The Annual Madness of Daylight Saving Time https://smile.amazon.com/dp/1582434956 https://smile.amazon.com/dp/1582434956 Alas, there is no Kindle edition nor a "look inside" preview, but I found the book very interesting.

SeanLuke 6y ago

Why are we making DST permanent rather than making the standard time permanent?

mminer237 6y ago
People like the sunshine. Getting rid of DST means you're always getting off work at 5:00 either in the dark or an hour or two before dark. Making it always DST means 5 o'clock will be before sunset year-round.
- briandear 6y ago
  Why is five o’clock the arbitrary getting off work time?
  - mminer237 6y ago
    Historical reasons: American society has settled on 40 hours being the appropriate amount of work for the average person. Starting near the beginning of the day at 9:00 meant 8 hours later people would get off at 5:00. I've heard Ford started that convention, but I haven't really researched it. But I think business hours are now very firmly entrenched in American society and that it would be very difficult to change that convention.
theodric 6y ago
Light in the evening when you can use it, rather than during the day when you're stuck on conference calls. Also, 'standard' offsets to GMT are fairly arbitrary anyway. We're not going to get employers to change operating hours, so it's paradoxically simpler to change the hours themselves.
- globular-toast 6y ago
  What about all the people who work outside and need sunlight?
  - 6y ago

breck 6y ago

In Hawai'i time only goes in one direction and it makes life easier.

jedmeyers 6y ago

Some states, like Washington, have already introduced permanent DST. The only thing they lack is federal permission to stay on DST. States can already permanently stay on non-DST time, like most of AZ does.

mey 6y ago

I'm not sure if this would introduce more or less bugs in software. It would at least make this Google Cloud SQL for MySQL issue less annoying. They don't support tz_info, so you have to manually adjust for DST offsets. Guess what I'm doing this weekend at 2/3am PDT/PST? https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/74600960 https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/74600960

annoyingnoob 6y ago

Yes, please.

baron816 6y ago

Just abolish time altogether

shmerl 6y ago

Dropping the switch itself is a good idea. But to which one to stick to is more moot.

Robotbeat 6y ago

I don’t care if you eliminate DST or make it permanent. One or the other. Just do it.

khalilravanna 6y ago

I'm another in the camp of "Why not standard time?" It seems like a lot of experts agree Standard Time is more healthy. Plus two whole countries (admittedly in Europe) tried permanent DST and either stopped it or flipped to permanent Standard Time. So is this just an uninformed position we're pushing forward or is the US truly unique? Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time

tonfa 6y ago
At least france and spain are at DST or more the whole year (winter is DST and summer is DST++). I haven't heard people clamoring for moving out of winter DST (actually permanent DST++ is kinda popular since it's now part of the culture to have late leisure time)
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presentation 6y ago
Also, I'm based in Asia, and it would help me have more times for meetings with my US teammates without having to wake up super early :) Not looking forward to next week onward...
Viliam1234 6y ago
Could there be a compromise solution possible like, dunno, using Standard Time half of the year and Daylight Saving Time the other half? Just kidding, of course. Yeah, I'm in the same camp. If you need to wake up earlier, tell people to wake up earlier, do not redefine time. What's next, redefining meter, because sticks shorter than one meter are more convenient to use? Businesses would probably lobby to redefine time, so we can work more, while nominally having 8-hour workdays.
abandonliberty 6y ago
"Tried it and flipped" is pretty weak. They had complaints. I'm sure there were complaints both ways. Maybe arguing that something is 'default' is easier. This evidence isn't really compelling in either direction. In any case, we should just all switch to UTC. Software development and global trade would benefit.

MattSayar 6y ago

I'm just so, so thankful I don't maintain any kind of time zone libraries https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b923ca https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b...

tshaddox 6y ago
Fair enough, I probably wouldn’t enjoy that work either! But it’s important to note that changes in the local timekeeping rules of various regions is precisely what the tz database is designed to handle. As far as I can tell, this rule change would be straightforward to enter into the tz database and to use for any software that’s already using the tz database. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tz_database https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tz_database

FunnyLookinHat 6y ago

For the sake of every parent of a child under the age of 5 - please pass this. Twice a year we have to spend an entire week slowly shifting sleep schedules in the hopes of a successful switch. :)

jedberg 6y ago
Melatonin is safe for kids. It's what we use for the spring time change (and international travel).

jb775 6y ago

> Opponents of the bill say DST makes it hard on school children and parents who have to wait at the bus stop in dark hours of the morning. We should also push back school start times at least 1 hour. Studies have shown kids benefit from this, mostly as a result of getting more sleep. School starting times have historically been pegged to the time most parents begin their work commute. Since many parents no longer have a commute, it makes even more sense to push back starting times.

pkulak 6y ago
Push back school, and you have to push back work (no, not everyone can work from home). And then you have to push back entertainment. And then everything else. And then you've changed the clocks, but in a worse, more complicated way.
- shados 6y ago
  Not everyone can work from home, but tons and tons of people can't work 9 to 5 either. We can instead start agreeing that the current system is pretty broken. When I was in elementary school, my parents had to start work much earlier than school started (at some point my mother was a school bus driver. Kinds of rule that out no matter how much you shift the school day!). So I was just waiting alone for the bus for a few hours. It was boring as hell, not gonna lie.
- jb775 6y ago
  We should push back work, but still end at the same time. We've been programmed to accept 9-5 salaried jobs (which is actually 8-5 or 9-6 for most people not including commute) but on a macro level it's been proven employees are receiving less and less of the pie. Fuck them, let's work less and enjoy more of life with ppl you care about.

VoodooJuJu 6y ago

Respect waking with the rising sun and banish DST for good. We should instead be working toward adjusting that archaic and arbitrary 8-4/9-5 versus changing the clocks around.

tomekjapan 6y ago
Yes, this is the right way to solve it. Forcing DST on everyone in winter without adjusting school starting times is a horrible and selfish idea.

fitzie 6y ago

anyone who works with people in other countries will appreciate this, recurring meetings are always an issue with various countries going in an out of daylight savings. after fixing this, I'd like to see the entire country move to a single timezone. that would be a vast improvement as well.

happyconcepts 6y ago

Such priorities for these politicians. While people are sick and dying they merely... adjust their watches. But that's not enough so they legislate it for the rest of us too. Such priorities.

jazzdev 6y ago

Fatal car accidents in the United States spike by 6% during the workweek following the "spring forward" to daylight saving time, resulting in about 28 additional deaths each year. [1] 1 = https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/01/200130144410.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/01/200130144410.h...

stjohnswarts 6y ago
I would suggest that is correlated with sleep deprivation rather than lightness/darkness as following weeks evidently the rate returns to basically the same. That would not be true if the darkness was the issue.

jobigoud 6y ago

Just move to the standrad time of the next timezone. Why make it so complicated by using this bastardized "Permanent DST"? If your timezone is officially UTC-5+1 all year long, you might as well simplify to UTC-4...

PhilosAccnting 6y ago

I would love for someone more well-versed to correct me on this, but I remember reading a decade ago about how the Roman priesthood (the calendar-keepers) would fudge with the dates to conform to their political desires, ranging from 200-500 days at the most extreme. The fact that we can consolidate this down to only disagreeing on how to set our hours is what I'd call progress![1] [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_calendars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_calendars

amai 6y ago

Russia did that in 2011 and then reverted the decision in 2014. Now Russia has standard time all year long. "The 2011 move to impose permanent “summer time” ... forced tens of millions to straggle to their jobs in pitch darkness during the winter months. In the depths of December, the sun didn’t clear the horizon in Moscow until 10 a.m." https://apnews.com/article/7b85f8edc6d84ee087d3aa3880cc6af7 https://apnews.com/article/7b85f8edc6d84ee087d3aa3880cc6af7