7 ms·

From what I know from doctors, what FANG does is basically the equivalent of doing your board exams every time you want to change jobs. Which usually gets a re

by novok 6y ago

From what I know from doctors, what FANG does is basically the equivalent of doing your board exams every time you want to change jobs. Which usually gets a reaction of dread & disgust when you couch it in those terms to doctors. Interviews are significantly easier as far as prep time goes for doctors & psychologists. BUT, you don't have to go through the entire med school & residency rigamarole as a software engineer either, so as far as total effort goes FANG is probably easier. I posit that software engineering is probably the most egalitarian method of socioeconomic mobility, because the only real barrier is time, a laptop, the internet and motivation, while all the other methods require an upper-middle class background and expensive schooling (law, medicine, finance) or just plain luck (business, celebrity art & sports) But being an interviewer in FANG, I've actually found it rare to find the self taught type in practice. But we do leave that door open unlike medicine.

908B64B197 6y ago
> From what I know from doctors, what FANG does is basically the equivalent of doing your board exams every time you want to change jobs. Which usually gets a reaction of dread & disgust when you couch it in those terms to doctors. If Software Engineers want to get rid of algorithmic interviews, all they have to do is come up with a professional exam and a strict licensing body... just like most professions carrying a tittle (MD, Lawyers...). But as long as "3 months js bootcamp grad" can advertise himself as a software engineer just as much as a guy from Stanford CS then we'll keep having these interviews.
- jonas21 6y ago
  > But as long as "3 months js bootcamp grad" can advertise himself as a software engineer just as much as a guy from Stanford CS then we'll keep having these interviews. The fact that a bootcamp grad can compete for the same software engineering jobs as a Stanford CS grad is one of the very best parts of the hiring process in our industry. Are you proposing that we start using credentials as gatekeeping?
  - 908B64B197 6y ago
    I agree it's great. But it has this side effect that you need to test every candidates. > Are you proposing that we start using credentials as gatekeeping? No. As a fast-track sure. So you don't have to start every interview with a FizzBuzz [0]. [0] https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/
    - KptMarchewa 6y ago
      The filter is usually a 15 minute test, while later you have multiple-hour interviews, sometimes even whole day in the office just doing interviews. So you're not even getting that much, unless you somehow fear failing the first test, while being confident in the multi-hour interview skills?
    - wjmao88 6y ago
      Ironically, that article was written in a era where there weren't really boot camps, only CS Grads from actual universities, and in that article it specifically calls out many CS grads cannot code.
  - jonathankoren 6y ago
    > The fact that a bootcamp grad can compete for the same software engineering jobs as a Stanford CS grad is one of the very best parts of the hiring process in our industry. Are you proposing that we start using credentials as gatekeeping? But we already do use credentials as gatekeeping. There's a lot of talk about bootcamps and whatnot, but how many of these people actually get passed the resume screen when compared to a Stanford CS grad? FAANGs famously recruit from same 20 universities, and then complain about "lowering the bar" if they branch out anywhere else. We could stop gatekeeping, but it still happens.
    - 908B64B197 6y ago
      > But we already do use credentials as gatekeeping. There's a lot of talk about bootcamps and whatnot, but how many of these people actually get passed the resume screen when compared to a Stanford CS grad? At some point there's a signal to noise ratio issue here as well.
- tidepod12 6y ago
  Yea, but I also think it's more complicated than that. I would think that if you already work for a FAANG or other well-respected tech company, that would de facto serve as your "professional certification" and help avoid these ridiculous interview processes. If you work at Google as a SWE, then you've already passed a pretty high bar to become a SWE and when you apply somewhere else, ideally they would see you can pass that bar and not ask you to leetcode your way over the bar again. But IME, that's not the case. I know some FAANGs that, even when doing an internal transfer within the company, still require you to go through the full leetcode interview process. There seems to be some kind of inherent or cultural distrust amongst tech interviewing, where nobody trusts that anyone has tech skills unless they personally verify it. I don't think a professional exam/certification would solve this distrust.
  - jasonpeacock 6y ago
    Back in the day I remember stories about candidates who would get an offer from Amazon and then Google/MS would just automatically counter-offer without interviewing as it was assumed that if they passed the Amazon interview then it was good enough for Google/MS. Or maybe that was just an urban legend...
  - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
    > "I would think that if you already work for a FAANG or other well-respected tech company, that would de facto serve as your "professional certification" and help avoid these ridiculous interview processes" Nope, not at all. Despite their rigorous hiring process, even the FAANGs have bad hires, burn outs, or people who simply can't keep up with the pace. Some FAANGs require an interview loop even for internal transfers to guard against a bad hire.
    - ryandrake 6y ago
      I highly doubt there are even a few software firms who would offer you a job sight unseen purely because you have a prestigious company on your resume. It might help you get your resume to the top of the stack but you’ll still unfortunately be leetcode grinding and whiteboard hazing.
- brandall10 6y ago
  Fwiw, Triplebyte has a fast track program which allows candidates to do a 2 hour proctored pairing session. Companies can use that as a way to filter and take over at least part of their hiring process - it’s a one and done thing for a candidate dealing with any companies through the platform. We’re currently experimenting with it. It would be nice to have something like this completely divorced from a recruiting engine though.
  - xirbeosbwo1234 6y ago
    I was very excited about Triplebyte when I first saw it. I did very well on the test (>80th percentile straight out of school, as high as their scale goes) and was looking for junior positions. I didn't get a single interview and didn't get any feedback from a human after the exam was over. Perhaps other parts of my profile were unappealing, perhaps I applied to the wrong positions, or perhaps Triplebyte doesn't have many contacts outside of California. Whatever the reason, I was not impressed with the results. Their entire business is designed for people like me and it achieved nothing. Do with my anecdote what you will.
  - collyw 6y ago
    Screw companies trying to make money by using developer time for free.
    - brandall10 6y ago
      I’m genuinely confused by this comment and any downvotes. No candidate is doing unpaid work for us or for this service (ie. building out their platform). It's a way to validate a skillset, pure and simple, and that's how this platform makes its money. The output from a candidate has no business value aside from this. I can understand distaste about having a time imbalance (ie. a candidate is not investing the same # of ours as our staff), but like I said, this is a one and done thing and can be used w/ a way to cut down time working with any other companies using the platform. For us it means going directly to the final rounds, whether they took it at our suggestion, for another company, or just did it for themselves. If they do it for us and they don't end up with an offer, they are not left empty-handed from the process. In sum, it moves toward some sort of accreditation system, that’s the reason I mentioned it. It's a shame my comment is at the bottom of the pile as I too would love a future where the only time spent interviewing is just a couple hours getting to know my future teammates, and I truly feel platforms like this may eventually get us there. All the same I'd appreciate feedback on why they're disliked. I've seen them mentioned in other HN threads without any vitriol.
- walshemj 6y ago
  A new grad from Stanford is no more an Engineer that someone from a boot camp is.
- cynoclast 6y ago
  >If Software Engineers want to get rid of algorithmic interviews, all they have to do is come up with a professional exam and a strict licensing body... just like most professions carrying a tittle (MD, Lawyers...). By the time the exam is designed - not complete, designed - it will be obsolete. By the time the exam is completed, there will be 3 new languages invented. This would be like changing what animal you have to study as a doctor every six months for the test.
  - jjav 6y ago
    Definitely not. The vast majority of computer science and software engineering practice needed for successful product delivery was developed back in the 50s to the 70s and has not substantially changed since. The library and framework of the week is not fundamental experience. I always advocate computer science training really needs more history of the discipline. So many new languages and libraries turn out to be a rediscovery of ideas thoroughly explored in decades prior, just that the creator didn't know. An orthopedic surgeon gets new types of tools and implants in their toolbox through their career, but the structure of the bones they operate on is the same forever. It's the same with software.
- eyelidlessness 6y ago
  Except they existed before a boot camp was a thing and were about evaluating whether CS grads could write real code.
- nradov 6y ago
  The IEEE has taken the first step toward professional software engineer licensing with the "Software Engineering Body of Knowledge" and associated certification program. So any company that wants to could accept that certification as a substitute for their own algorithmic interviews. (I am not necessarily recommending that, just pointing out that the option exists.) https://www.computer.org/education/bodies-of-knowledge/software-engineering/v3 https://www.computer.org/education/bodies-of-knowledge/softw... https://www.computer.org/product/education/professional-software-engineering-master-certification https://www.computer.org/product/education/professional-soft...
- collyw 6y ago
  My colleague just left after doing a load of AWS exams. I am left to fix his mess. He will create another over engineered over complex mess. He values clever over maintainable. I am not sure exams are the answer, but I don't have a better suggestion.
waynesonfire 6y ago
For what it's worth, I worked with a talented self-taught engineer. He stated he hit a ceiling and needed to get a degree and so he did through a remote learning program. In the event that this is common, it may explain why they're rare. The resumes of the ones that don't hit that ceiling probably don't make it to your desk.
- nosefrog 6y ago
  I don't know if there's a ceiling for degree-less software engineers in the Bay Area. Speaking as someone who dropped out of college and is now a "senior" software engineer at Google, I've worked with a couple folks who are much more senior than I am without a degree. That said, it's much harder to get your foot in the door without a degree, even in the Bay Area. I had to go above-and-beyond to get my first job at a small startup (I created a program that used their API and was useful enough that I ended up continuing the work when they hired me). With my second job at Dropbox, the recruiter told me that they only reason they interviewed me was because I went to Recurse Center (which is a free programming retreat for programmers that also acts as a recruiting firm). Multiple companies have grilled me during interviews about why I dropped out, including Google.
  - mockingbirdy 6y ago
    As a college dropout myself, this really makes me think about continuing my degree. What did you answer to Google and others who grilled you?
- collyw 6y ago
  It seems kind of strange that you would go to university to progress. I feel the opposite, university was a good starting block but the vast majority of my knowledge is from on the job.
  - lookACamel 6y ago
    I think they meant a salary ceiling.
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
> I posit that software engineering is probably the most egalitarian method of socioeconomic mobility, because the only real barrier is time, a laptop, the internet and motivation, while all the other methods require an upper-middle class background and expensive schooling (law, medicine, finance) or just plain luck (business, celebrity art & sports) As much as we all hate the tech interview process, it's a relatively level playing field as far as hiring goes. It's not perfect, of course, but we have to select on something. As engineers we have a level of free access to study tools and material that my friends in other professions envy. The alternative to skills testing is to rely more on credentials, references, and background. People who come from elite universities or lucked into prestigious jobs early in their career tend to prefer this type of interview process because it benefits them the most while excluding those who are trying to break into the industry. The benefit of skills-based testing, however imperfect, is that it opens the door for people who have skills but not the right background or credentials to skip through the ranks and get a foot in the door.
- collyw 6y ago
  > it's a relatively level playing field as far as hiring goes I am not sure that is true at all. People with family or basically any commitments outside of work don't have anywhere near as much time to practice for this sort of thing and why should they need to practice for an interview? You do the job every day, if that isn't enough then the interview is clearly testing for the wrong thing.
  - chillacy 6y ago
    Relative to going to med school, law school, or a top 10 business school, I can’t see how it’s not true even for those with families or commitments.
    - kingnothing 6y ago
      You go to med school or law school generally before you have had children. After you've done those things, you don't study for weeks leading up to an interview. Instead, you have a piece of paper that proves what you know and the interviews are more a decision of "do we want to work together" rather than "is this personal qualified".

by novok 6y ago

908B64B197 6y ago

> From what I know from doctors, what FANG does is basically the equivalent of doing your board exams every time you want to change jobs. Which usually gets a reaction of dread & disgust when you couch it in those terms to doctors. If Software Engineers want to get rid of algorithmic interviews, all they have to do is come up with a professional exam and a strict licensing body... just like most professions carrying a tittle (MD, Lawyers...). But as long as "3 months js bootcamp grad" can advertise himself as a software engineer just as much as a guy from Stanford CS then we'll keep having these interviews.

jonas21 6y ago
> But as long as "3 months js bootcamp grad" can advertise himself as a software engineer just as much as a guy from Stanford CS then we'll keep having these interviews. The fact that a bootcamp grad can compete for the same software engineering jobs as a Stanford CS grad is one of the very best parts of the hiring process in our industry. Are you proposing that we start using credentials as gatekeeping?
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  I agree it's great. But it has this side effect that you need to test every candidates. > Are you proposing that we start using credentials as gatekeeping? No. As a fast-track sure. So you don't have to start every interview with a FizzBuzz [0]. [0] https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/
  - KptMarchewa 6y ago
    The filter is usually a 15 minute test, while later you have multiple-hour interviews, sometimes even whole day in the office just doing interviews. So you're not even getting that much, unless you somehow fear failing the first test, while being confident in the multi-hour interview skills?
  - wjmao88 6y ago
    Ironically, that article was written in a era where there weren't really boot camps, only CS Grads from actual universities, and in that article it specifically calls out many CS grads cannot code.
- jonathankoren 6y ago
  > The fact that a bootcamp grad can compete for the same software engineering jobs as a Stanford CS grad is one of the very best parts of the hiring process in our industry. Are you proposing that we start using credentials as gatekeeping? But we already do use credentials as gatekeeping. There's a lot of talk about bootcamps and whatnot, but how many of these people actually get passed the resume screen when compared to a Stanford CS grad? FAANGs famously recruit from same 20 universities, and then complain about "lowering the bar" if they branch out anywhere else. We could stop gatekeeping, but it still happens.
  - 908B64B197 6y ago
    > But we already do use credentials as gatekeeping. There's a lot of talk about bootcamps and whatnot, but how many of these people actually get passed the resume screen when compared to a Stanford CS grad? At some point there's a signal to noise ratio issue here as well.
tidepod12 6y ago
Yea, but I also think it's more complicated than that. I would think that if you already work for a FAANG or other well-respected tech company, that would de facto serve as your "professional certification" and help avoid these ridiculous interview processes. If you work at Google as a SWE, then you've already passed a pretty high bar to become a SWE and when you apply somewhere else, ideally they would see you can pass that bar and not ask you to leetcode your way over the bar again. But IME, that's not the case. I know some FAANGs that, even when doing an internal transfer within the company, still require you to go through the full leetcode interview process. There seems to be some kind of inherent or cultural distrust amongst tech interviewing, where nobody trusts that anyone has tech skills unless they personally verify it. I don't think a professional exam/certification would solve this distrust.
- jasonpeacock 6y ago
  Back in the day I remember stories about candidates who would get an offer from Amazon and then Google/MS would just automatically counter-offer without interviewing as it was assumed that if they passed the Amazon interview then it was good enough for Google/MS. Or maybe that was just an urban legend...
- ThrowawayR2 6y ago
  > "I would think that if you already work for a FAANG or other well-respected tech company, that would de facto serve as your "professional certification" and help avoid these ridiculous interview processes" Nope, not at all. Despite their rigorous hiring process, even the FAANGs have bad hires, burn outs, or people who simply can't keep up with the pace. Some FAANGs require an interview loop even for internal transfers to guard against a bad hire.
  - ryandrake 6y ago
    I highly doubt there are even a few software firms who would offer you a job sight unseen purely because you have a prestigious company on your resume. It might help you get your resume to the top of the stack but you’ll still unfortunately be leetcode grinding and whiteboard hazing.
brandall10 6y ago
Fwiw, Triplebyte has a fast track program which allows candidates to do a 2 hour proctored pairing session. Companies can use that as a way to filter and take over at least part of their hiring process - it’s a one and done thing for a candidate dealing with any companies through the platform. We’re currently experimenting with it. It would be nice to have something like this completely divorced from a recruiting engine though.
- xirbeosbwo1234 6y ago
  I was very excited about Triplebyte when I first saw it. I did very well on the test (>80th percentile straight out of school, as high as their scale goes) and was looking for junior positions. I didn't get a single interview and didn't get any feedback from a human after the exam was over. Perhaps other parts of my profile were unappealing, perhaps I applied to the wrong positions, or perhaps Triplebyte doesn't have many contacts outside of California. Whatever the reason, I was not impressed with the results. Their entire business is designed for people like me and it achieved nothing. Do with my anecdote what you will.
- collyw 6y ago
  Screw companies trying to make money by using developer time for free.
  - brandall10 6y ago
    I’m genuinely confused by this comment and any downvotes. No candidate is doing unpaid work for us or for this service (ie. building out their platform). It's a way to validate a skillset, pure and simple, and that's how this platform makes its money. The output from a candidate has no business value aside from this. I can understand distaste about having a time imbalance (ie. a candidate is not investing the same # of ours as our staff), but like I said, this is a one and done thing and can be used w/ a way to cut down time working with any other companies using the platform. For us it means going directly to the final rounds, whether they took it at our suggestion, for another company, or just did it for themselves. If they do it for us and they don't end up with an offer, they are not left empty-handed from the process. In sum, it moves toward some sort of accreditation system, that’s the reason I mentioned it. It's a shame my comment is at the bottom of the pile as I too would love a future where the only time spent interviewing is just a couple hours getting to know my future teammates, and I truly feel platforms like this may eventually get us there. All the same I'd appreciate feedback on why they're disliked. I've seen them mentioned in other HN threads without any vitriol.
walshemj 6y ago
A new grad from Stanford is no more an Engineer that someone from a boot camp is.
cynoclast 6y ago
>If Software Engineers want to get rid of algorithmic interviews, all they have to do is come up with a professional exam and a strict licensing body... just like most professions carrying a tittle (MD, Lawyers...). By the time the exam is designed - not complete, designed - it will be obsolete. By the time the exam is completed, there will be 3 new languages invented. This would be like changing what animal you have to study as a doctor every six months for the test.
- jjav 6y ago
  Definitely not. The vast majority of computer science and software engineering practice needed for successful product delivery was developed back in the 50s to the 70s and has not substantially changed since. The library and framework of the week is not fundamental experience. I always advocate computer science training really needs more history of the discipline. So many new languages and libraries turn out to be a rediscovery of ideas thoroughly explored in decades prior, just that the creator didn't know. An orthopedic surgeon gets new types of tools and implants in their toolbox through their career, but the structure of the bones they operate on is the same forever. It's the same with software.
eyelidlessness 6y ago
Except they existed before a boot camp was a thing and were about evaluating whether CS grads could write real code.
nradov 6y ago
The IEEE has taken the first step toward professional software engineer licensing with the "Software Engineering Body of Knowledge" and associated certification program. So any company that wants to could accept that certification as a substitute for their own algorithmic interviews. (I am not necessarily recommending that, just pointing out that the option exists.) https://www.computer.org/education/bodies-of-knowledge/software-engineering/v3 https://www.computer.org/education/bodies-of-knowledge/softw... https://www.computer.org/product/education/professional-software-engineering-master-certification https://www.computer.org/product/education/professional-soft...
collyw 6y ago
My colleague just left after doing a load of AWS exams. I am left to fix his mess. He will create another over engineered over complex mess. He values clever over maintainable. I am not sure exams are the answer, but I don't have a better suggestion.

waynesonfire 6y ago

For what it's worth, I worked with a talented self-taught engineer. He stated he hit a ceiling and needed to get a degree and so he did through a remote learning program. In the event that this is common, it may explain why they're rare. The resumes of the ones that don't hit that ceiling probably don't make it to your desk.

nosefrog 6y ago
I don't know if there's a ceiling for degree-less software engineers in the Bay Area. Speaking as someone who dropped out of college and is now a "senior" software engineer at Google, I've worked with a couple folks who are much more senior than I am without a degree. That said, it's much harder to get your foot in the door without a degree, even in the Bay Area. I had to go above-and-beyond to get my first job at a small startup (I created a program that used their API and was useful enough that I ended up continuing the work when they hired me). With my second job at Dropbox, the recruiter told me that they only reason they interviewed me was because I went to Recurse Center (which is a free programming retreat for programmers that also acts as a recruiting firm). Multiple companies have grilled me during interviews about why I dropped out, including Google.
- mockingbirdy 6y ago
  As a college dropout myself, this really makes me think about continuing my degree. What did you answer to Google and others who grilled you?
collyw 6y ago
It seems kind of strange that you would go to university to progress. I feel the opposite, university was a good starting block but the vast majority of my knowledge is from on the job.
- lookACamel 6y ago
  I think they meant a salary ceiling.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

> I posit that software engineering is probably the most egalitarian method of socioeconomic mobility, because the only real barrier is time, a laptop, the internet and motivation, while all the other methods require an upper-middle class background and expensive schooling (law, medicine, finance) or just plain luck (business, celebrity art & sports) As much as we all hate the tech interview process, it's a relatively level playing field as far as hiring goes. It's not perfect, of course, but we have to select on something. As engineers we have a level of free access to study tools and material that my friends in other professions envy. The alternative to skills testing is to rely more on credentials, references, and background. People who come from elite universities or lucked into prestigious jobs early in their career tend to prefer this type of interview process because it benefits them the most while excluding those who are trying to break into the industry. The benefit of skills-based testing, however imperfect, is that it opens the door for people who have skills but not the right background or credentials to skip through the ranks and get a foot in the door.

collyw 6y ago
> it's a relatively level playing field as far as hiring goes I am not sure that is true at all. People with family or basically any commitments outside of work don't have anywhere near as much time to practice for this sort of thing and why should they need to practice for an interview? You do the job every day, if that isn't enough then the interview is clearly testing for the wrong thing.
- chillacy 6y ago
  Relative to going to med school, law school, or a top 10 business school, I can’t see how it’s not true even for those with families or commitments.
  - kingnothing 6y ago
    You go to med school or law school generally before you have had children. After you've done those things, you don't study for weeks leading up to an interview. Instead, you have a piece of paper that proves what you know and the interviews are more a decision of "do we want to work together" rather than "is this personal qualified".