10 ms·
Report: Tesla is building a giant 100 MW battery in Texas
- retzkek 6y agoBoth TFA and the Bloomberg article it references [1] mention the 100MW power throughput of the battery, which is pretty meaningless without also knowing the energy capacity. For reference, the similar 100MW battery installation in Australia has 129MWh capacity [2]. This project is less remarkable when you read "About 2,100 megawatts of battery storage ... are in advanced stages of connecting to Ercot’s grid." [1]. 1. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-03-08/tesla-is-plugging-a-secret-mega-battery-into-the-texas-grid https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-03-08/tesla-is-... 2. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/12/tesla-beats-deadline-switches-on-gigantic-australian-battery-array/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/12/tesla-beats-deadline-sw...
- ar0 6y agoAlso for comparison: a single pumped-storage plant will often have storage capacity in the GWh; e.g. the Linth-Limmern pumped storage part in Switzerland can store 33 GWh and provides 1000 MW peak power.
- ASalazarMX 6y ago> pumped-storage plant Seeing the title, I jokingly thought of generating hydroelectric power off a dam, and storing excess power by pumping the water back up, Sisyphus like. I'm very surprised this is actually a thing.
- heleninboodler 6y agoTaken to extremes of solar+pumped-storage, we could end up with a situation where the earth spins more quickly in the early morning when the moment of inertia of the planet is lower because the solar panels haven't started moving all that water mass to its higher elevation yet.
- tintor 6y agoThere is always a morning somewhere!
- heleninboodler 6y agoThis is an excellent point and I can't believe I overlooked it. Obviously there could still be significant lopsidedness since places where you'd be moving mass around might not be evenly distributed, though. No idea why someone downvoted you for this observation. :D
- glogla 6y agoYes! It's also only slightly less efficient than batteries.
- ed25519FUUU 6y agohttps://www.npr.org/2021/01/27/961242867/the-worlds-biggest-battery-classic https://www.npr.org/2021/01/27/961242867/the-worlds-biggest-...
- ACAVJW4H 6y agoWhen I overlay the population density map, on top of the elevation map. I think there aren’t many opportunities in Texas for grid scale pumped hydro storage. Although pumped hydro has huge potential it is not homogeneously distributed all over the world according to this map. https://www.hydroreview.com/world-regions/22-million-gwh-of-pumped-hydro-energy-storage-potential-identified-worldwide/ https://www.hydroreview.com/world-regions/22-million-gwh-of-...
- retzkek 6y agoBill Gates mentioned pressurized pumped-hydro storage in his book, (which was the first I had heard of it), and it sounds quite promising and something Texas is well-suited for: > GLIDES costs as low as $13/kWh and $346/kWh and roundtrip efficiencies as high as 80% can be achieved using depleted oil/gas reservoirs and high-pressure pipe segments as pressure reservoirs, respectively. https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2019/12/f69/02_ORNL_Momen_GLIDES_FINAL.pdf https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2019/12/f69/02_ORNL_...
- jacquesm 6y agoElevation translates in to 'head' and that's the single reason that this works well in Switzerland which has something that many other places do not have: very high mountains. With sufficient head the potential energy of a reservoir of modest size can be very impressive, and without you can have a huge reservoir that barely moves the needle.
- skybrian 6y agoI wonder if you could do something similar with underground storage in a mine?
- jacquesm 6y agoNot really enough volume you could only use the lowest levels, and even the largest mines are dwarfed by small lakes. You'd have to put the generators and pumps at the bottom where they'd be easily submerged. Typically pumped storage uses two lakes, one high and one low. But points for creative thinking :)
- Dylan16807 6y ago> which is pretty meaningless without also knowing the energy capacity I disagree. You can reasonably assume a battery bank will have a capacity between an hour and a few hours.
- bryanlarsen 6y agoSafe assumption, at least for Tesla Megapack based projects. The Megapack has a default inverter that supplies 1/4W of power per Wh of energy. But there are options to buy bigger inverters.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- loufe 6y agoGood lord can we please move away from the common misnomer of kW, MW, GW, and TW when we mean kWh, MWh, GWh, and TWh? It makes me angrier than it should, but aside from BTUs (heating/cooling) it's the only one I'm aware of that is so stubborn.
- ar0 6y agoAs far as I read the article they are really talking about 100 MW maximum power output; they mention that the Australian version can supply that 100 MW for a bit more than an hour (so store a bit more than 100MWh), so they seem to be aware of the distinction but apparently don’t know (?) the energy storage capacity of the planned battery installation.
- lr1970 6y agoTo put it in perspective. During the recent cold weather the State of Texas was short of 16GW of power for more than 40 hours making it 640GWh shortfall in amount of energy needed. You would need 6400 batteries 100MWh each to meet such demand. The only thing that a single 100MWh battery in Texas will be good for is stabilizing the grid against short-term load fluctuations -- the job a similar Tesla battery has been successfully doing in Australia.
- grey-area 6y agoThat is a very important job though and is dramatically cheaper than peaker plants.
- wombatmobile 6y ago‘Undeniable success’: South Australia’s 129MWh Tesla battery https://www.energy-storage.news/news/undeniable-success-south-australias-129mwh-tesla-battery https://www.energy-storage.news/news/undeniable-success-sout... South Australia’s Tesla ‘Big Battery’ saved consumers $116 million in electricity costs last year https://www.startupdaily.net/2020/03/south-australias-tesla-big-battery-saved-consumers-116-million-in-electricity-costs-last-year/ https://www.startupdaily.net/2020/03/south-australias-tesla-...
- 0xy 6y agoAccording to recent figures, South Australian energy prices are 51% higher than Victoria, or 134% higher than Texas. Throwing poor people under the bus (they're most impacted by high energy prices) so you can claim you're green (while opening brand new gas power plants) is pretty awful. South Australia is still building new gas plants. Natural gas, which is nearly as dirty as coal.
- shirro 6y agoSouth Australia pricing suffers from a failure of deregulation, not renewable power. The gas/wind/solar mix for generation is fine for a state with a very small population and abundant wind, sun and natural gas. SA has very poor deposits of brown coal which were not sustainable and the country lacks any nuclear power expertise. The state privatised their grid and it is now controlled by foreign owners. Many believe the pricing is the result of gold plating. Generation costs have fallen in recent years and wholesale prices are competitive with the other states.
- umvi 6y agoAt a certain point you would think it's cheaper to soak up excess energy with something other than lithium-ion, like gravity batteries or flywheels, but apparently not...
- choeger 6y agoActually I think batteries will be the cheapest option for a very long time. They can be produced at a much higher scale than today (I wouldn't be surprised if we see 10x the production in the next five to ten years and consequently prices below $30/kwh) and they can be setup incrementally. Most alternatives are fixed-size all-or-nothing affairs. Oh and the biggest downside of batteries, their low energy density doesn't really matter for stationary storage.
- giarc 6y agoNot an expert by anymeans, but it takes a long time for those to start producing energy when required (5 mins+). I believe in Australia, the Tesla battery was able to start providing energy in seconds.
- rout39574 6y agoI don't know that this applies at utility scale, but on a home scale they respond within the cycle; that is, they take up the slack before the next 60hz peak or trough.
- bpodgursky 6y agoPumped-water storage is a big thing elsewhere, but afaik Texas doesn't have any big mountains to make this convenient. (also, these dams have failed before to great misfortune downstream)
- nine_k 6y agoLithium, iron, phosphorus, and oxygen are all pretty abundant and cheap. The economies of scale and better processes need to kick in (even more) to make them cheaper. Say, steel was very expensive until the Bessemer process became widespread. Gravity batteries are very low-density, and flywheels are prone to dangerous catastrophic failures. They also need mechanical generators which aren't free. I'm suspect that chemical batteries are the future.
- doggodaddo78 6y ago100 MW for 10 msec is 1 MWh 100 MW for 100 h is 10 GWh It helps to use proper units, doesn't it? Large-scale battery storage is completely asinine when PES is far superior.
- nawgz 6y agoWhat is PES? I only can get results for Power & Energy Society, which seems tangentially but not meaningfully related
- croddin 6y agoI think it means Pumped Energy Storage
- nine_k 6y agoWhat is PES?
- morei 6y agoPumped Energy Storage (or rarely: Potential Energy Storage). Aka pumped hydro.
- nine_k 6y agoIn Switzerland, and maybe in, say, Appalachia, it's an obvious thing to do. But if your land lacks serious mountainous features, like much of Texas, it becomes impractical. It's also seriously more capital-intensive: you need to pour like a million tons of concrete.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- inglor_cz 6y ago(Dons his prophetic hat.) Even if this battery seems to be gigantic now, in 15 years it will look small, much like Falcon 1 is now just a tiny teeny rocket compared to Starship + Super Heavy.
- marshmallow_12 6y ago(dons his prophetic tie clip) In 110 years time Elons' interstellar Universeship will dwarf both his battery and the Starship.
- agumonkey 6y agoand is used as solar shield to dampen climate change ?
- marshmallow_12 6y agoNo.
- marshmallow_12 6y agoThis battery is obviously not for shock winters since capacity falls in cold weather. When i first saw the title i pictured in my mind a titanic model y rolling through the rural areas of texas...
- ajross 6y agoIf only there were some technology available for conditioning the interior airspace of a building so that it stayed at room temperature year round...
- marshmallow_12 6y agopowered by.... (oh)
- ajross 6y agoPowered by... the giant battery conveniently kept in the same facility? No seriously: this isn't a problem. Heated buildings are solved, large ones stay warm for days once power is cut. There's a surprising amount of thermal mass in something that large, building walls are thicker, more simply constructed and easier to insulate than wood houses, and the mass to surface ratio is much smaller than what you're used to in a home. And in any case the waste heat produced by generation at that capacity is more than enough to keep an active facility warm, they most likely need to engineer for net cooling even during the coldest weather.
- lambda_obrien 6y agoTesla batteries can operate in freezing temperatures in heat mode.
- philipkglass 6y agoEven bigger batteries entered service in California last year. "At 300MW / 1,200MWh, the world’s largest battery storage system so far is up and running" https://www.energy-storage.news/news/at-300mw-1200mwh-the-worlds-largest-battery-storage-system-so-far-is-up-and https://www.energy-storage.news/news/at-300mw-1200mwh-the-wo... Phase 1 of Moss Landing Energy Storage Facility was connected to the power grid and began operating on 11 December 2020, at the site of Moss Landing Power Plant, a natural gas power station owned by Vistra since it acquired the facility’s previous owner, Dynegy in 2018. At 300MW / 1,200MWh, the BESS is considerably larger than the 250MW / 250MWh Gateway Energy Storage project brought online earlier this year by LS Power, also in California. Not only that, but Phase 2 of Vistra’s project will add another 100MW / 400MWh and is scheduled for completion by August this year.
- jeffbee 6y agoRight, the difference between these older, larger facilities and Tesla's massive and giant facility is Telsa has a dedicated person with magazine editors on speed dial, while Dynegy doesn't.
- skybrian 6y agoThere seem to be a lot of these? There are two different ones in Moss Landing, one by Tesla: > What might be a little confusing is that PG&E itself is also building a similarly named battery storage project in the area - called Moss Landing BESS - at the site of the utility’s Moss Landing substation. PG&E’s project, currently under construction using Tesla Energy battery storage system equipment, will also be among the world’s biggest battery storage projects when completed, at 182.5MW / 730MWh. I guess it's a good location due to the substation, which is probably there due to the power plant. (Also, I thought Tesla got rid of their PR department?)
- jeffbee 6y agoThere are quite a few going up right now. There is a 50MW/4-hour facility almost complete near me in Pittsburg, California. PG&E has 750MW new capacity planned through 2023, and the whole state has 2000MW planned for the next 12 months. The state wants 2000MW per year for at least the next ten years. I don't know why Moss Landing is so intense but basically any place with a peaker, an existing large-scale solar, or any kind of transmission capacity in California is getting batteries now or soon.
- j-pb 6y agoI wonder if the boring company has any plans to create tunnels that could be used for gravity energy storage. After all, if they have the tech to continuously bore long tunnels, boring straight down becomes a much easier task as you don't need as much anchorage to provide forward pressure. You can essentially use the front plate of a TBM, and have it "fall" into the ground with a large weight behind it.
- marshmallow_12 6y agoBetter idea (maybe): store even more gravitational energy by sending heavy weights into orbit. Just use booster rockets to make it fall through the atmosphere, regenerating vast amounts of energy in the process.
- detritus 6y agoThe problem then being: how do you remove the mass you're extracting? Existing horizontal TBM systems make this much easier.
- lambda_obrien 6y agoDon't, just price it into the project and leave it down there.
- detritus 6y agoI meant the dirt, not the TBM itself.
- lambda_obrien 6y agoHmm yes, quite. Never thought about that haha.
- skybrian 6y agoGeothermal looks promising, using the technology for drilling wells.
- simonebrunozzi 6y agoCan we have "100 MW" in the title, either after "giant", or in substitution with "giant"? I think it would be a much better title. Edit: also, forgot to mention that most people don't seem to know that batteries used for these type of large projects are not in competition with batteries used in cars, in the sense that they are either of a different kind, or recycled/used ones.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- chubs 6y agoTesla recently build a big battery like this in Adelaide (south australia) to much fanfare. A friend who works reasonably high up in electricity distribution engineering tells me that you open the doors on the tesla-emblazoned cabinets and it's simply all siemens (IIRC) gear inside. (Not to say that tesla isn't value-adding by organising the sale!)
- ajross 6y agoElectrical distribution is a solved problem though and has been for almost a century. The notable part of that battery facility isn't the Siemens "gear", it's the Tesla batteries.
- gardenfelder 6y agohttps://www.tesla.com/en_AU/powerpack https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/powerpack
- tortarga 6y agoEven the battery cells themselves are made by Panasonic, the packaging of a complete product is the value of the PowerPack.
- lambda_obrien 6y agoIndeed, the Tesla powerpack is years ahead of the competitors, probably because they engineer only the hard parts themselves and use commercial products for the easy stuff.
- raphaelj 6y agoDo you have a source for the “years ahead”. Not being sarcastic, I’m genuinely interested.
- lambda_obrien 6y agoIt's my opinion, mostly, but I've written drivers to control several different models and makes of battery installation, so firsthand experience. The difference is in the control software and reliability: Tesla batteries are way more reliable and have less downtime than anything else I've worked with. It's getting better.