6 ms·

Is this a viewpoint special for Israel or does it also cover other countries with, let's say, complicated politics? Without comparing Russia, China, North Kore

• grumple 6y ago
  No, it's not special for Israel. It makes sense for nations to learn to live peacefully with their neighbors, especially when those neighbors are vastly more powerful than them. But there's also a bit of a false equivalence here: Israel is a true democracy, which ranks significantly higher on lists of economic and individual freedoms than the nations you just named. Israel also soundly beat Lebanon in several wars, and Lebanon's conflict with Israel is rooted in religious hatred - it's not like Lebanon is taking a moral stand here. Hezbollah, which has run Lebanon for years, is an Iran-supported extremist / religious / terrorist group.
  • maybelsyrup 6y ago
    > Israel is a true democracy For whom? What does this even mean?
    • SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      It contrasts with countries like China or Russia, where voting does exist, but major government leaders can ensure that they’re always re-elected and their policies are always enacted.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    • ethbr0 6y ago
      True, yes. Functional, eh? What # election are they on? Four in the last 2 years?
      • grumple 6y ago
        Seems better to have more elections than be stuck with someone for 4 years without any chance of recall. How is more elections worse than fewer?
        • vinay427 6y ago
          I'm not sure it's clear that one is better than the other in general. For instance, I would be wary of a snap election after an event perceived as politically significant (e.g. a declaration of war, a major terrorist attack, etc.). Obviously, there can be benefits to building a government or coalition as a response to this sort of event, but it can also lead to transient or reactionary politics. When circumstances permit, I much prefer a more stable system such as a Switzerland-style executive council or otherwise stable administration with a fixed and limited term as long as there is sufficient oversight to deal with neglect of duties, corruption or incapacitation, etc.
        • crimper 6y ago
          I think this discussion is missing important facts: 1. The current ruling government forced these elections 2. the same prime minister was elected in all of these and he could not compile a government due to lack of mandate
          • ethbr0 6y ago
            The current ruling government (comprised of a shotgun marriage between two opposing parties) disintegrated, right? My understanding of Israeli politics is that it's two major parties (roughly, conservative and liberal) + a few smaller bloc parties that generally line up with the same major party. And that the math of this vs the majority needed tends to result in a larger number of elections. I believe something similar tends to happen in Italy? And maybe Spain? The flaw, in the sense that overly-frequent elections are unproductive to the business of governing, as I see it is matching a static legal mandate (a government must be able to compose a strict majority) with a variable system (number and size of parties), that leads to some edge cases that make the former difficult / unsustainable. I'm American though, so I'm looking at this from our (probably to the rest of the world) crazy winner-take-all tilt. It seems like parliamentary democracies would be improved by either (a) implementing policies and laws that ensure a larger number of smaller blocs, with which alliances can be made (preference voting?) or (b) having "deescalator" clauses if election churn happens, to lower the threshold required to form a sitting government (which then presumably ramps back up over time).
    • grumple 6y ago
      It means that all citizens (which includes many Arabs and Muslims) can vote and those votes are binding and not manipulated by fraud or threats of violence.
      • Daho0n 6y ago
        >which includes many Arabs and Muslims Yes but not all of them which is the problem. Ask poor Palestinians how democratic Israel is. It would be like if the US made laws specifically to imprison masses of black people and then say "we are a democracy, except for those who have been in prison".
        • grumple 6y ago
          > Yes but not all of them which is the problem. The ones that can't vote in Israel are part of another nation (whether recognized or not) and they vote as part of that nation. A better analogy would be saying that Mexicans can't vote in the US (even though Mexican-Americans can).
• SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  It also applies to those other countries. You can and should offer harsh criticisms of a government when you think they’ve done wrong, but eliminationist rhetoric is pointless and self-destructive in the modern world.
• slg 6y ago
  I don't really see those as directly comparable. The problem most people have with the countries you listed is the specific regime in power. Depose the leaders, have a free election, and many of those complaints go away. The problem that many people in neighboring countries have traditionally had with Israel is its existence. You can't change the Israeli government in a way to satisfy those demands. It is more than just "complicated politics" for them.
  • 8note 6y ago
    You certainly could swap out the regime from being a Jewish state to being an Islamic state? Constitutional change would solve that issue
    • mola 6y ago
      Yeah, well after the holocaust no jew will give up sovreignity and rule so it can be a minority in an islamic state.
    • slg 6y ago
      That wouldn't provide any real solution to the region's political problems. Jewish people make up some 75% of the country. The only way to turn Israel into an Islamic state would be through conquest. The country would still have Occupied Territories except the map would be inverted.
    • eli_gottlieb 6y ago
      Yeah, I can't imagine why all of us Jews aren't voting for the policy of an Islamic State in the Levant. That platform has obviously never been tried before, certainly not by the region's most disgustingly, genocidally evil terrorist group, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.
  • konart 6y ago
    >Depose the leaders, have a free election, and many of those complaints go away. I love when people oversimplify things like that.