4 ms·

One side is producing research papers and other sources. You are saying you have a PhD in this area so trust you. I do not know you, I do not know if the PhD i

One side is producing research papers and other sources. You are saying you have a PhD in this area so trust you. I do not know you, I do not know if the PhD in question actually qualifies you to speak on the subject, and I do not know if it did that you would actually be fully up to date on the subject. I do not necessarily want to dismiss this out of hand as an appeal to authority, but as a layperson, you do not making a convincing argument when it boils down to "Listen to me, I have a PhD, trust me over these other people who have PhDs who are also publishing peer reviewed papers that disagree with me."

timr 6y ago
> One side is producing research papers and other sources. You are saying you have a PhD in this area so trust you. That's not a paper. It's a pre-print. It isn't peer-reviewed. It isn't published. Literally anyone can push a document to a pre-print server. I'm saying I have a PhD in this exact discipline, and this document isn't proof of what it claims. You certainly don't have to believe me, but saying "this is a paper, and therefore it is likely to be correct" is not a standard of evidence that exists.
- cthalupa 6y ago
  >That's not a paper. It's a pre-print. It isn't peer-reviewed. It isn't published. Literally anyone can push a document to a pre-print server. I stand corrected. > but saying "this is a paper, and therefore it is likely to be correct" is not a standard of evidence that exists. It is still at least showing some work beyond the "making claims with zero supporting evidence", which is what you are doing.
  - dna_polymerase 6y ago
    > It is still at least showing some work beyond the "making claims with zero supporting evidence", which is what you are doing. Really? OP knew exactly what was going on in this pre-print. Unlike you who took this for a published paper. Don't ask someone to show work when you yourself didn't read the summary. Also the paper doesn't talk about the 'ability of red blood cells to carry oxygen', the attack is first and foremost reported to result in less hemoglobin being available. There is a difference here.
    - tremon 6y ago
      To be fair, the OP mentioned "the ability of the blood to carry oxygen", not blood cells, which would be correct if the overall concentration of hemoglobin was lowered.
      - vmception 6y ago
        OP here. This is a great discussion and I'm glad this particular subthread chose not to dismiss it and instead chose to debate the progress of the research into it or lack thereof. Would be even greater to get NIH to invest $1B into looking into it further. 6 months ago people would have retorted slightly differently, although they would have balked at the assertion they would have assumed that people already researched it and ruled it out, and therefore I would have been "fearmongering" because the scientists already researched it! now we can acknowledge that they haven't and needs to be peer reviewed. so the goal post has moved, but I'm all for data being collected.
    - cthalupa 6y ago
      >Really? OP knew exactly what was going on in this pre-print. Unlike you who took this for a published paper. Don't ask someone to show work when you yourself didn't read the summary. This is not the only reply from him in the thread going back to the top comment. There are other articles and papers posted, in response to his reply or backing the assertions of the original post he replied to, here and throughout the rest of the rest of the comment section. In none of his posts did he provide any response to them beyond his appeals to authority. I had no desire to reply to multiple posts with the same general concern and instead picked a single one. The top post should have included sources for their assertion. They did not. Others stepped in for them and did in the thread. Other threads include articles and sources for the same assertions. At that point, the burden of proof isn't on them - someone saying they're wrong needs to provide details on why that is not the case vs. just saying "I got a PhD in this so trust me." It's a classic appeal to authority fallacy.
      - timr 6y ago
        I'm not saying "you should believe me because I have a PhD". That would be an appeal to authority. I'm saying: I have deep expertise in this exact area, and based on my experience and knowledge and ability to read papers in this area, I can confidently say that this is a bad "paper" that does not prove the claim made. You have no skill or experience in this area, and you choose to believe the paper instead of my assessment of the paper. That is certainly your right, but your basis for doing so is "it's a paper and I don't know who you are", which is self-evidently silly.
nradov 6y ago
There's nothing wrong with publishing a computer model. But until it has been experimentally validated in humans then it's medically irrelevant. You're really reaching on this one.
- cthalupa 6y ago
  It's still more than the literal zero evidence presented by the person I replied to.

timr 6y ago

> One side is producing research papers and other sources. You are saying you have a PhD in this area so trust you. That's not a paper. It's a pre-print. It isn't peer-reviewed. It isn't published. Literally anyone can push a document to a pre-print server. I'm saying I have a PhD in this exact discipline, and this document isn't proof of what it claims. You certainly don't have to believe me, but saying "this is a paper, and therefore it is likely to be correct" is not a standard of evidence that exists.

cthalupa 6y ago
>That's not a paper. It's a pre-print. It isn't peer-reviewed. It isn't published. Literally anyone can push a document to a pre-print server. I stand corrected. > but saying "this is a paper, and therefore it is likely to be correct" is not a standard of evidence that exists. It is still at least showing some work beyond the "making claims with zero supporting evidence", which is what you are doing.
- dna_polymerase 6y ago
  > It is still at least showing some work beyond the "making claims with zero supporting evidence", which is what you are doing. Really? OP knew exactly what was going on in this pre-print. Unlike you who took this for a published paper. Don't ask someone to show work when you yourself didn't read the summary. Also the paper doesn't talk about the 'ability of red blood cells to carry oxygen', the attack is first and foremost reported to result in less hemoglobin being available. There is a difference here.
  - tremon 6y ago
    To be fair, the OP mentioned "the ability of the blood to carry oxygen", not blood cells, which would be correct if the overall concentration of hemoglobin was lowered.
    - vmception 6y ago
      OP here. This is a great discussion and I'm glad this particular subthread chose not to dismiss it and instead chose to debate the progress of the research into it or lack thereof. Would be even greater to get NIH to invest $1B into looking into it further. 6 months ago people would have retorted slightly differently, although they would have balked at the assertion they would have assumed that people already researched it and ruled it out, and therefore I would have been "fearmongering" because the scientists already researched it! now we can acknowledge that they haven't and needs to be peer reviewed. so the goal post has moved, but I'm all for data being collected.
  - cthalupa 6y ago
    >Really? OP knew exactly what was going on in this pre-print. Unlike you who took this for a published paper. Don't ask someone to show work when you yourself didn't read the summary. This is not the only reply from him in the thread going back to the top comment. There are other articles and papers posted, in response to his reply or backing the assertions of the original post he replied to, here and throughout the rest of the rest of the comment section. In none of his posts did he provide any response to them beyond his appeals to authority. I had no desire to reply to multiple posts with the same general concern and instead picked a single one. The top post should have included sources for their assertion. They did not. Others stepped in for them and did in the thread. Other threads include articles and sources for the same assertions. At that point, the burden of proof isn't on them - someone saying they're wrong needs to provide details on why that is not the case vs. just saying "I got a PhD in this so trust me." It's a classic appeal to authority fallacy.
    - timr 6y ago
      I'm not saying "you should believe me because I have a PhD". That would be an appeal to authority. I'm saying: I have deep expertise in this exact area, and based on my experience and knowledge and ability to read papers in this area, I can confidently say that this is a bad "paper" that does not prove the claim made. You have no skill or experience in this area, and you choose to believe the paper instead of my assessment of the paper. That is certainly your right, but your basis for doing so is "it's a paper and I don't know who you are", which is self-evidently silly.

nradov 6y ago

There's nothing wrong with publishing a computer model. But until it has been experimentally validated in humans then it's medically irrelevant. You're really reaching on this one.

cthalupa 6y ago
It's still more than the literal zero evidence presented by the person I replied to.