14 ms·
Banned Seuss
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- tareqak 6y agoIn this particular case, saying that the books were “cancelled” or banned is false. The publishing company was set up by his family and they are choosing to no longer publish or sell more copies. For them to be forced to publish those books again would actually be against free speech. https://apnews.com/article/dr-seuss-books-racist-images-d8ed18335c03319d72f443594c174513 https://apnews.com/article/dr-seuss-books-racist-images-d8ed... > BOSTON (AP) — Six Dr. Seuss books — including “And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street” and “If I Ran the Zoo” — will stop being published because of racist and insensitive imagery, the business that preserves and protects the author’s legacy said Tuesday. > “These books portray people in ways that are hurtful and wrong,” Dr. Seuss Enterprises told The Associated Press in a statement that coincided with the late author and illustrator’s birthday. > “Ceasing sales of these books is only part of our commitment and our broader plan to ensure Dr. Seuss Enterprises’ catalog represents and supports all communities and families,” it said. > The other books affected are “McElligot’s Pool,” “On Beyond Zebra!,” “Scrambled Eggs Super!,” and “The Cat’s Quizzer.” > The decision to cease publication and sales of the books was made last year after months of discussion, the company, which was founded by Seuss’ family, told AP. (Emphasis mine)
- SilverRed 6y agoIts a little more than that. Amazon immediately pulled it and ebay stated they will start delisting auctions of the books. Sure, its not the government, but once big tech groups up to stomp something out it may as well be banned. I would be surprised if the hosting company pulls the plug on this site.
- arpa 6y agoDon't worry, we have the pirate bay for preserving culture, good or bad.
- jonas21 6y agoBased on the statement from Seuss Enterprises, I'd imagine that Amazon's action is in line with the wishes of the author's heirs.
- jasonpeacock 6y agoThe estate requested that sales be ceased, in addition to their decision to stop publishing. This was likely coordinated with requests to Amazon and other sellers/resellers to pull the books from their shelves/catalogs. Having Amazon independently decide to stop selling a book is one thing, but it is not this - this the author's estate requesting that sales be stopped.
- tareqak 6y agoI would like to see if Dr. Seuss Enterprises did direct Amazon and eBay to perform this action. If so, then it makes sense.
- thatguy0900 6y agohttps://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Minstrel+man https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Minstrel+man it doesn't seem like eBay cares enough about the subject to take its own initiative against it
- phendrenad2 6y agoSo can you sell the book used on eBay? If not, and the "blame" is on the Seuss estate, how is that not against the First Sale principle?
- tareqak 6y agoIs eBay required to have their platform be used to sell items they do not want to be associated with? Your comment make me think of something else though: I wonder if Dr. Seuss Enterprises would be willing to offer to buy back these banned books?
- phendrenad2 6y agoWell there are two different arguments here. One is that eBay is free to take down whatever they want. That's true. The other is that a publisher can request that something be taken down in the used market, which I think isn't true, ...maybe?
- QuadmasterXLII 6y agoIf I delete my own facebook post its not censorship for facebook to stop serving it.
- ZenPsycho 6y agoif only HN could muster this enthusiasm and anger about Big Tech ganging up to stomp out minority voices. The world might be a better place.
- weare138 6y agohttps://www.amazon.com/If-Ran-Zoo-Classic-Seuss/dp/0394800818/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=If+I+Ran+the+Zoo&qid=1615087421&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/If-Ran-Zoo-Classic-Seuss/dp/039480081... https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=If+I+Ran+the+Zoo&_sacat=0 https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m...
- readflaggedcomm 6y agoCeasing sales isn't cancelling in the same way deeming it offensive isn't accusation it offended.
- Spooky23 6y agoIt’s also weird because “And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street” wasn’t published for some time, and was resumed with the last 10-15 years. It’s an early book that honestly doesn’t deserve the attention of the later masterful works. I would think the right wing politicians would be more upset about “Horton Hears a Who”, “Yertle the Turtle” and the “Butter Battle Book”.
- ziml77 6y agoI was wondering if it was an early piece. It really isn't very good.
- linksnapzz 6y agoIt's a lovely little tale about where imagination can take you, and how difficult it is to express what you might have imagined...it's been one of my favorites since I was very small.
- prepend 6y agoDo you think self censoring is not censoring? What should we call it instead?
- hotpockets 6y agoJust fyi, Nobody banned Seuss. Seuss Enterprises stopped publishing a few unpopular Seuss books.
- SilverRed 6y agoAmazon and ebay have banned it as well so far.
- khazhoux 6y agoBan (/ban/) - verb: Officially or legally prohibit.
- dudeinjapan 6y agoAmazon and eBay have officially prohibited according to their company policies. Presumably this is what you mean?
- joshmanders 6y agoAt the request of the Seuss Family/Enterprise.
- LocalH 6y agoWho should have zero say in the matter
- chris_wot 6y agoThe term “request” means to ask. They asked them not to sell the books, and they agreed not to.
- LocalH 6y agoDon't be fooled into thinking Amazon and eBay are doing this because of any moral imperative. It ultimately boils down to the almighty dollar, and these large companies are so scared of being on the wrong "side" of this that they trample on the rights of individuals. What happens when other marketplaces prohibit these books? What happens when there is no legal outlet to sell them outside of face-to-face transactions? Mark my words, one day the left will lose their position of "authority" on these topics, and the same tools will be abused against the very people who sought to implement them. It will be a sad and unfortunate day when that occurs.
- nobodyno2 6y agoI just read the book in the link, here is what I found: "even Jane could think of that" ^ sexism "Chinese man who eats with sticks" ^ racism
- SilverRed 6y agoThe sexism is not super clear in context imo. There are 5 generic names listed in that paragraph and none of them are referenced previously so it looks like just random names to support the "Anyone could think of that"
- berkut 6y agoYeah, I think it's open to interpretation: my reading of "Nat" is it could be short for Natalie, so by that logic, "Jane" wouldn't necessarily be stupid just because she's a woman (which I assume is what the potential complaint would be?)
- cperciva 6y agoHow exactly are chopsticks racist?
- mc32 6y agoI know there are a few Asian Restaurants owned and run and given patronage by Asians (and Asian Americans) with the name Sticks or Stix. China Stix, Chopstix, etc. Someone mentioned the depiction of the eyes was problematic, but other characters also have similar eyes and moreover, Japanese woodcuts as well as other East Asian art use similar eye representation[1]. It's a bit looney. Who knows, maybe it's a ploy to boost flagging sales by piquing the interest of 'conscientious' parents who otherwise might have considered Dr Seuss passé. [1]https://spokenvision.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Utamaro-Two-Beauties-with-Bamboo-770x1234.jpg https://spokenvision.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Utamaro-...
- linspace 6y agoMy exact thought. I would say that discriminating against asians in university access is racist, for example. But chopsticks? I must be becoming old. The problem with these absurd witchhunts is that they dilute racism. At some point people give up and think "well, it must be that I'm racist" and when that happens they stop caring.
- jimmytucson 6y agoI’m curious what everyone thinks is the difference between erasing books, as this website says, and removing tweets. Does anyone think one is right and not the other? Are we watching the same movie over and over again on different devices?
- tareqak 6y agoYeah, is a listing comparable to a tweet. Is Twitter exercising its right of freedom of association to control the content on its platform comparable to Amazon or eBay choosing what listings are available on theirs?
- acomjean 6y agoI went to the Seuss museum a couple years ago (Springfield MA). Quite delightful. I think the company (trust?) just decided it wasn’t worth it. The books aren’t the big sellers. They’re not shutting down Seuss world in Orlando. Other books still exist. Honestly probably a good publicity move for them to sell books to those who wouldn’t have bought anyway.
- reaperducer 6y agoThey’re not shutting down Seuss world in Orlando. Yet. Considering how people are canceling Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King, Jr., it's only a matter of time. Maybe weeks.
- jjj123 6y agoWho’s canceling MLK?
- reaperducer 6y agoIt's been in the newspaper for the last year or so that the woke crowd is reevaluating his legacy. He had a number of writings that today are considered anti-gay. In one very public letter to a gay teen (published in a newspaper, IIRC) he told the teen that he needed mental health counseling to correct himself. It's a pretty famous letter. Should be an easy Google search.
- eesmith 6y agoSo, "cancel" means "evaluate someone based on their entire person rather than just the things that person is most famous for"? Because I can't seriously think that woke people are saying that MLK's work must be banned, censored, and otherwise removed from history courses, national discourse, etc., which is how anti-cancel-culture people usually seem to characterize the matter.
- ketamine__ 6y ago
- A12-B 6y agoWow these books... suck. The ones I read as a kid, namely "If I Ran The Circus" and "Green eggs and ham" are way better than these, in terms of rhyming and illustration. No wonder they fell out of popularity.
- arpa 6y agoYet religious texts straight-out telling people to kill other people for inconceivable reasons are still published and sold daily.
- whatanattitude 6y agoWhat texts?
- arpa 6y agoReligious ones.
- boxed 6y agoThe Bible and Quran are the most popular ones.
- zakki 6y agoCitation needed.
- krapp 6y ago"However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the Lord your God has commanded you." Deuteronomy 20:16-17
- Grustaf 6y agoThat's a quote of something God said several thousand years ago. It's not urging people today to go out and slay Hittites. Assuming you could find any Hittites.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- reaperducer 6y agoRemember that time we banned the Confederate flag and solved racism? Oh, wait...
- Larrikin 6y agoRemember that time when the civil rights acts passed and racism was over? You're making a reductive argument that any step toward racial equality that doesn't solve it completely isn't worth doing.
- inglor_cz 6y agoI would say that Coca-Cola teaching its employees to be less white, or writing Black and white with different capitalization, is actually getting away from racial equality. Contemporary America does not strike me as seeking racial equality at all. On the contrary, the goal seems to have an extremely racialized and regulated community where your skin color is an extremely important attribute in schooling, employment, artistic activity etc.
- UncleMeat 6y agoPeople said the same thing in the 60s
- bgravinz 6y agoThe amount of hip hop that explicitly trades in horrifically prejudicial content, that isn't getting yanked by eBay or Amazon, likely dwarfs these books thousands of times over in both reach and vileness. Tired of white liberal handwringing translating into these clearly performative corporate maneuvers.
- threevox 6y ago> Tired of white liberal handwringing translating into these clearly performative corporate maneuvers. You've just described the past 5 years online
- zerocrates 6y agoWill be interesting to see if the Seuss rightsholders decide to make the obvious DMCA claim here. I'm sure it depends somewhat on whether this gets any traction.
- BugsJustFindMe 6y ago> Copyright © 2021 Banned Seuss - All Rights Reserved. Yyyyyeeeeeaaaaahhh....that's really not how copyright works. You can't just put your own copyright notice on someone else's copyrighted work.
- SecurityLagoon 6y agoMost CMS will add this automatically. I doubt this was an intentional move.
- jmcgough 6y agoEbay banning these items is a good thing. Removing them from the biggest second-hand markets in the world devalues them as collectables. Ebay has removed other collectable items in the past, like slave tags and aunt jemima bottles.
- LocalH 6y agoThank you for further eroding freedom
- emayljames 6y agoThey don't want to look at tin-tin books then. The old one's will make your eyes bleed.
- sildur 6y agoI read Tintin at age 8. Old ones included. I knew they were racist, but I also knew they were products of their time. I think American kids are also able to draw the same conclusions. If they are allowed to, that is.
- Barrin92 6y agoRealistically I don't think most eight year-olds or young kids can contextualize fiction like that. I'm not sure most of them even know what racism means at that point. I think an annotated version of the books might be a good idea.
- sildur 6y agoAs I said, they can, but you have to allow them to. We had a child series here in Europe portraying racism and fascism, and we were able to understand what happened in it. And we are regular people.
- whateveracct 6y ago> If they are allowed to, that is. False & assumed fragility is everywhere nowadays Remember when Looney Tunes were aired with a disclaimer but no editing? Seems outlandish now.
- mc32 6y agoI gotta ask, do we get the Firemen of Fahrenheit 451 before the end of the year, what are the odds?
- Rochus 6y agoBradbury was a visionary. It is probably to be feared that these kinds of books will also soon fall out of favor. Interestingly The Fire Man only appeared four years after Nineteen Eighty-Four.
- tanseydavid 6y agoWhy do you think they named the product KINDLE ? In the past I got laughed at so many times when I suggested that this was an intentional reference to Bradbury. Not so much laughing now.
- dTal 6y agoThey've doubled down on the branding with "Kindle Fire". Officially it's something about "kindling the fires of imagination". But for a product that aims to replace paper books, it's tone-deaf at best, and a sinister double-entendre at worst.
- isamuel 6y agoSeuss had a lot of weird ideas. Any literary executor worth his salt would find a way to preserve the value of the literary estate by limiting distribution of the weird shit. Imagine that: a great guy had some bad books, which ought to probably be forgotten. Who’d have bethunk’d it.
- readflaggedcomm 6y agoAn index of banned work, instead of a single one: https://ardbark.com/ https://ardbark.com/
- retox 6y agoMost of the books I saw on that site don't seem to be banned or even controversial. Thanks for posting the link though.
- torgian 6y agoI don’t know if I necessarily agree with deciding to stop publishing books, even those that have images that portray different races in a negative light. On the one hand, you don’t want children to be easily influenced to adopt behavior that should not be adopted. However, there are still books out there that do have racist overtones. This is something you just can’t remove from every day life. I think a better solution would be to continue publishing these books, but prevent children from reading them until they are old enough to understand why the race portrayals in these books are wrong. Or, at the very least, hold an open discussion about these books. Banning / removing them entirely isn’t the answer in the long term.
- websites2323 6y agoI’m not sure why the Suess company couldn’t do what the makers of old cartoons did on Disney+. There’s a title card warning on old cartoons that say they are a product of their time, cultural depictions are not accurate, etc. It would be fairly simple to do this for new editions of the books. Print up front the precise images which are sensitive, and talk about what they would look like today or why they wouldn’t be included at all.
- Blueskytech 6y agoExcept that it is impossible to find early Disney war cartoons or more importantly “Song of the South”. The absence of SOTS is truly sad as the movie created the song “zippity do da”. “Song of the South” is beyond the pale for today’s sensibility but I do think its availability should be preserved since its titular song is a cultural touchstone much like the music from “The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly” or the line ‘Here’s looking at you kid’ from “Casablanca”
- RyanShook 6y agoWondering why this post was flagged. Is it for copyright infringement?
- dudeinjapan 6y ago"Mulberry Street" was written in 1937. Here are some images of China from the 1930s: https://www.vintag.es/2016/02/rare-vintage-pictures-of-china-in-1930s.html https://www.vintag.es/2016/02/rare-vintage-pictures-of-china... You be the judge.
- hedora 6y agoAlso, the book is clearly a celebration of multiculturalism. I’d like to see the people pulling these books draw a less stereotypical picture of someone from the 1930’s eating with chopsticks for a children’s book.
- Supermancho 6y agoAlmost all of those images are from large Chinese cities. If you add "farm" to your simple google search: 1930 images china farm You get images that look a lot more like the illustrations.
- offsky 6y agoWould it be wrong to edit the book? This one could easily be changed to “a circus man who walks on sticks” and replace one little drawing.
- david_allison 6y agoThe book has already been censored once by the author (1978) and the website shows the censored version. The backlash is presumably more about the original uncensored work. The original line was "A Chinaman who eats with sticks" along with an image of a man with yellow skin. https://twitter.com/dangelno/status/1367129947882590208/photo/2 https://twitter.com/dangelno/status/1367129947882590208/phot...
- betwixthewires 6y agoYes it would be wrong to edit the book.
- pqr53 6y agoAmidst the usual attempts at turning editorial decisions into political fuel for right wing outrage dumpster fire, I’m simply glad the Seuss family’s decision will help parents avoid unintentionally exposing their children to images and contents that alienate them. Imagine your Asian-American 4yo read who’s just learning to use chopsticks read “A Chinese man who eats with sticks,” with a ethnic caricature to go with it. It’s outdated because it wasn’t the author’s intent for the book to make certain children feel like an exotic sidekick prop, but the world has changed and created that risk; IMO, this is a reasonable way to address that. If you have a better alternative, speak up and advocate. If you don’t care about the alienation that minority children might feel reading this, well, that’s your problem.
- schrectacular 6y agoI find it incredibly hard to believe that a four year old will have the capacity to be offended by that image... If anything most four year olds will be excited to see a character also using chopsticks. I can see the parents not wanting their child to identify with the "stereotype", but given the fantastic nature of the rest of the imagery I just don't see anyone being the butt of a joke here. The kid is lost in a reverie and those images of Qing dress with the braid are pretty iconic. I have ample experience with China and no Chinese person I showed it to was offended at all, they thought it was cute.
- pqr53 6y agoIt’s no swastika with a mustache, I agree with that; if the Seuss family decided to do nothing about this, I’d probably make a mental note about reviewing kids books myself first and move on with life. But they did, and I understand the reason. So I’m supportive. Either way, I don’t think it dignifies anyone to be up in arms about it, and certainly not to turn it into a debate about constitutional law.
- inglor_cz 6y ago> Imagine your Asian-American 4yo read who’s just learning to use chopsticks read “A Chinese man who eats with sticks,” with a ethnic caricature to go with it. I imagined it and I felt no reason to collapse on my fainting couch. What is even bad about it? Is America so far gone that a stereotypical picture of a Chinese man with sticks is considered to be on par with a lynch mob singing "hang him high?" Or what precisely should be so shocking and horrifying there for a 4 y.o. kid? Isn't it actually a book that has been read by millions of kids, undoubtedly some of them Asian, without unleashing a PTSD epidemics among them?
- oliv__ 6y agoDon't tell me that book is banned because of the "Chinese man who eats with sticks"
- mesozoic 6y agoThat one was the eskimo like figures in fur coats I think.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- loveistheanswer 6y agoPeople who get offended at the sight of chop sticks and fur coats are likely closeted racists themselves, in the same way many homophobic, vehemently anti-gay evangelicals are actually deeply closeted.
- websites2323 6y agoThis is a good example of why copyright ought to be life of the author, full stop. Yes, it’s wrong to force the Seuss company to publish what they don’t want to publish, but it’s equally wrong for corporations to hold hostage cultural artifacts for profit well beyond the time in which the original author could possibly benefit from it.