9 ms·

I think women have largely been presented a false promise by progressives: value and purpose is derived from work, go do what men do to be their equal. It’s not

by dcow 6y ago

I think women have largely been presented a false promise by progressives: value and purpose is derived from work, go do what men do to be their equal. It’s not necessarily anybody’s fault, we live in a society where money is valued. But I wish we could structure society in a way such that the value of raising children, homemaking, is clearly communicated and understood. Being a mother without a snazzy career is frowned upon by plenty of people these days. I don't think that stigma is healthy. Why do women have to emulate men to be valuable? Couple that with the fact that depression is most prevalent among childless women in their 40s, it’s like we’re fighting nature to create a perfect 3rd wave utopia. Of course women should follow their heart and we should build a society that allows them to do so on equal terms, but we should not discourage homemaking and stigmatize people who want to raise children. And then there’s the practical side of things for which I’ve not been able to come to a good solution: In order to have a society of power career couples, someone has to raise their kids. As a couple that means you have to find someone who makes at most the same as you make, but probably less, to be your nanny (otherwise it would make more sense financially to just do it yourself). I don't see how that’s a sustainable narrative unless we are holding out for technology to fill that need. Me? I would be a stay at home dad in a heartbeat. I love cooking and homemaking and being there for children. But practically in my relationship that doesn't make sense so I’m obligated to work my days away in order to provide for my family. I think there’s this idea that all men love career life because it pays the bills. In reality it’s far from a pipe dream existence. Point is life is about making sacrifices in order to find happiness. If you sacrifice your youth and fertility for a shot at big riches, ultimately thats your choice. I just wish as a society we were more honest about reality and weren’t so dismissive of people who choose to raise children. That is where I see the path start to turn destructive.

core-questions 6y ago
> Of course women should follow their heart and we should build a society that allows them to do so on equal terms, but we should not discourage homemaking and stigmatize people who want to raise children. I think that many women do actually have the desire to be mothers in their hearts, and that they repress this desire in the current social context because having children is no longer something that confers high status upon you. Changing that would fix the birth rate. As a man, I do actually feel empowered and somehow more complete and grounded by virtue of having a family; but I know that before I had kids, I didn't really look at dads that way. Changing that perception, returning the family to a position of honor rather than just portraying it as a drag that stops you from doing all the great fun stuff out there in the world, would do wonders on that front. Sometimes it feels like a concerted effort has taken place to knock the family off of the pedestal.
- david-gpu 6y ago
  Somebody is down voting you, possibly because of the non-gender-neutral language, but I agree with your message: we currently overvalue wealth and job status and undervalue the joy of raising a family. I switched to a 4-day week to find a better work-life balance and couldn't be happier. Time with my kids is more valuable than the salary cut.
  - core-questions 6y ago
    I get downvoted continually because I post edgy things like "eating meat is okay" and "you should consider having a family" etc. I'm used to it, comment karma is largely meaningless, and sometimes the rate limiting helps make sure I have composed my thoughts well before responding. Very envious of your 4-day week! I do 6-7 days worth of work in 5 days and it's slowly killing me. Still finding time for the kids somehow, but the result is no sleep or recreation time for myself... the switch from office to WFH life has not been a blessing in terms of work/life balance.
    - david-gpu 6y ago
      Been there, done that. Burned out. Twice. Eventually learned that I can't achieve everything I want on every facet of my life. I am not superhuman. The day only has 24 hours. Something had to give. I was in a position in which I could afford to work less, so that's what I did. Now I'm mediocre at a few things in my life rather than being great at one at the cost of everything else, and I couldn't be happier with that decision.
      - core-questions 6y ago
        There's wisdom there. Maybe I will find a way to step back a little when I move on to my next gig...
madamelic 6y ago
>I think people have largely been presented a false promise: value and purpose is derived from working outside the home. FTFY. As you state further in, it's not women's exclusive job to be child-rearing nor is it not 'work' to maintain and run a house.
- silvestrov 6y ago
  You'll have to accept that running a house is much less work today than it was 150 years ago when there was no fridge, no hover, no washing mashine, no ready-made food. Today a single mom with full time job can still run a (not too big) house. So to be fullfilling there has to be more than just keeping the house clean and people fed, which is probably why so many upper-upper-middle class women have a part-time job running some kind of fashion store.
  - sturgill 6y ago
    > Today a single mom with full time job can still run a (not too big) house. Until COVID hits and children have to be taught virtually from home. There are no easy and cheap answers here, but a series of trade offs. I think the original question is “where is the conversation of the trade off?” I don’t think it’s settled that the ideal social structure involves a dual income family. And I think very few people envy the workload required of single mothers, regardless of technical advances that make cleaning a home easier. Caregiving goes well beyond making sure the kids have clean underwear.
  - deleted 6y ago
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rcpt 6y ago
In other nations where the state provides good childcare women have historically entered the workforce just fine. It's the US (and especially California) that drains everything possible from young families.
- koverda 6y ago
  Could you elaborate on why California especially?
  - nostrademons 6y ago
    Not OP, but in the major Californian metropolises housing has a way of sucking out all available resources. There are lots of people and not enough land, which means that people have a tendency to bid up the price of available housing up to the very maximum that they can afford to pay. As a result, wages are high, but it all goes to landlords or previous homeowners. Worse, this applies down the income ladder, such that childcare workers, cashiers, waiters, etc. are also living at the edge of subsistence because of housing. As a result, the price of these services gets bid up as well. This affects everybody but tends to affect families more than singles, because they can't bunk with roommates and they require a lot more services that involve paying other people. This isn't really California-specific: families in Eureka, Merced, and Bakersfield do just fine (except for it being boring and not having many opportunities). But most people associate "California" with either the Bay Area or LA, and both of those metros have lots of money flowing in, lots of people flowing in, and restrictive zoning that keeps housing scarce.
    - astrange 6y ago
      There's plenty of land in CA for infill development; the problem is it has one-story single family houses on it, and CA has banned development everywhere so nobody can replace them with something more sensible like a fourplex or a multi-story building. If we could, things would get cheaper, and traffic might even get better (since commutes would improve.)
  - rcpt 6y ago
endisneigh 6y ago
I couldn't agree more. I've been wondering if we're moving further or closer to the ideal you describe. As more excluded groups move towards unfettered capitalism, I wonder if we'll be lift with a huge gap to fill in the "bleeding heart" jobs, e.g. being a home maker, social worker, etc.
mbgerring 6y ago
I think the economics of raising children plays a much greater role than stigma or culture.
austincheney 6y ago
Actually, why must the family homemaker necessarily be a woman? If in a male/female relationship the female is the more ambitious one prioritize the male as the primary care giver. Either way raising children still takes time, energy, and focus that could otherwise pile into something else. While there are differences in general approaches males and females take in raising children I don't think there is any research indicating females are necessarily better than males, or the contrary. The reductio ad absurdum of it is that males tend to be more challenging and females tend to be nurturing, but those distinctions are highly variable.
- foolinaround 6y ago
  >family homemaker necessarily be a woman Women, making a broad assumption, seem to have the traits (honed over millemia) of watching over the family. But in a household, if the husband and wife exhibit the opposite traits, then that must be encouraged too. I know of a family in which the woman is the bread-winner, the husband takes care of the kids and home, and both are happy.
- dcow 6y ago
  1. I didn't say it needs to be a women, I am highlighting that there’s a stigma against women performing that role today. 2. The problem is exactly with the characterization (that you made) of the “more ambitious” route being the career route. Why do we assume having a career requires more ambition than wanting to raise a healthy family?
  - david-gpu 6y ago
    > I am highlighting that there’s a stigma against women performing that role today That is true, but there's an even bigger stigma against men who want to perform that role. Sure, you may find a very career-driven spouse who would be happy with you taking the role of the caregiver, but that is not a common occurrence. The man who does not provide substantial income to the family will find it much harder to find a partner than a woman in the same situation. Talking about heterosexual couples here, of course.
  - 6y ago
llimos 6y ago
1000% this. > Why do women have to emulate men to be valuable? Growing up in a "traditional" family, the first thing that struck me when I went to work at a big investment bank was how the women did everything they could to be like men - all the way down to dress. I remember thinking, this is called equality? That what men traditionally did is clearly so much better, so women now need to become men, and we should celebrate the achievement that they are now free to do so? I mean, yes, obviously if they want to, the fact that they can is a good thing. But the fact that they almost need to, is not.
- judge2020 6y ago
  It might not be emulating men as much as it is simply dressing business casual or business professional because it’s required while in the office.
- ARandumGuy 6y ago
  Did they act and dress like men because of "equality," or because that's the only way they can actually be taken seriously?
  - lambda_obrien 6y ago
    I like the film short by pixar called "Purl" for this.
  - zo1 6y ago
    Sounds like we jumped the gun a bit on that? Maybe we should have "changed" people's minds and values regarding gender first before we shoved everyone into a conforming box, and then wondered about the "consequences" and their unwillingness to play along.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
vmception 6y ago
> Being a mother without a snazzy career is frowned upon by plenty of people these days. I don't think that stigma is healthy. Why do women have to emulate men to be valuable? I used to think that, but then I found out that many people aren't trying to emulate men, they are trying to do a more encompassing thing, juggling an unprecedented number of roles and responsibilities surpassing what has been human in nature. So, basically, even worse than emulating men. My observation is that a lot of this is based on an assumption that men want to be in corporate careers. As in, pursuing a corporate/intellectual blue collar or white collar career is not an optional checkbox of pride for men that want to exchange time for food and shelter and have a female partner. I think if this was acknowledged for how it is interdependent in the state of the world it would help even out representation and many other strifes, as opposed to gendering the problems and invalidating problems based on priority.
- everdrive 6y ago
  >is not an optional checkbox of pride for men that want to exchange time for food and shelter and have a female partner This is something that crosses my mind often. Work has some perks, but I would NEVER have taken a career so seriously if I never wanted to get married.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    I would have quit my current job years ago if I didn't have to support my family.
foolinaround 6y ago
this is also a big reason why several women who have chosen to stay home and look after family and kids feel unfulfilled because many of their peers are seen as more valuable by society. The reason for this unhappiness is then portrayed as the inability of the women to not have a career. it is often, the other way around.
- everdrive 6y ago
  Joke's on both parties, huh? Can you imagine feeling particular pride because you are important in some random company?
HuShifang 6y ago
I completely agree with the point here -- people should have the freedom to work a bit less and "live" more (however they define that, be it parenting, pursuing hobbies, or what have you) without fear for their livelihood. I would offer one amendment: in the US at least, disagreement on this theme is probably one of the major dividing lines between liberals and progressives (and their fellow travelers). Liberals (like Elizabeth Warren, who has labeled herself a progressive but is generally liberal in her policy positions) prioritize free child care and other policies that would make outsourcing childcare less financially onerous, freeing people to work more; progressives and their fellow travelers (like Bernie Sanders and Andrew Yang) prioritize paid family leave, UBI, and other policies that would minimize the need to outsource childcare in the first place by allowing people to work less.
amelius 6y ago
Meanwhile it is impossible for many people to own a house without a double income... So your idea makes sense, but not in today's economy.
Karawebnetwork 6y ago
> Why do women have to emulate men to be valuable? Why do we assume that those behaviors are inherently a man's? Women that have a drive to become business leaders do so for personal reasons and not to emulate anyone (except perhaps personal heroes who could happen to be women). You later speak about a wish to become a stay-at-home father. Is this emulating women or is it a wish based on activities that are not inherently gendered such as cooking and taking care of children?
- dcow 6y ago
  My point is not that these behaviors are inherently those of a man. It’s that success should be defined much more broadly than “things men traditionally do”. I think we are in agreement on that I may have not done the best job at capturing the point.
  - Karawebnetwork 6y ago
    But is being a start-up founder really something that men traditionally do or is it a completely new role that people of all genders can aim for? This role can be toxic and lead to problematic behaviours that can worsen a person's personal life and mental health, regardless of their gender identity.
    - africanboy 6y ago
      it's something that men have traditionally done, yes. it's like the beard, it's traditionally something that, in general, men have and women don't. that doesn't mean that things can't change in the future and that the change won't be for the better.
      - Karawebnetwork 6y ago
        Some of my personal idols from the past are Coco Chanel, Estée Lauder and Katharine Graham. That would be women born in the 1880's, 1900's and early 1920's. While few women had the privilege required to focus on their career, it was still present. At what point should we mark something as "tradition"? Remember that the Equal Credit Opportunity Act was not a thing until 1974. Until then, banks required single, widowed or divorced women to bring a man along to cosign any credit application, regardless of their income.
elliekelly 6y ago
> I think women have largely been presented a false promise by progressives: value and purpose is derived from work, go do what men do to be their equal. It’s not necessarily anybody’s fault, we live in a society where money is valued. But I wish we could structure society in a way such that the value of raising children, homemaking, is clearly communicated and understood. Being a mother without a snazzy career is frowned upon by plenty of people these days. I don't think that stigma is healthy. Why do women have to emulate men to be valuable? Why ask these questions only as they relate to women and motherhood? Why haven't men being presented a false promise that value and purpose is derived from work? Being a father without a snazzy career is equally (if not more so) frowned upon by plenty of people these days. I don't think that stigma is healthy, either. Why do men have to emulate other men to be "valuable"? Why do men have to avoid emulating women to be "valuable"? > Couple that with the fact that depression is most prevalent among childless women in their 40s I don't know your source for this but you should at least consider the possibility that women, particularly women with financial resources (childless women in their 40s, for example), are significantly more likely to seek mental health treatment compared to similarly situated men. Correlation is not causation and more women being treated for depression does not necessarily mean more women are depressed.
- dcow 6y ago
  100% agree that any stigma against being a stay at home dad (viewing the issue from the opposite angle as you ask) is also unhealthy. In my personal journey, at least, I have not encountered men who stigmatize my desire to be a stay at home dad but I have (surprisingly often) encountered women who stigmatize female homemakers (or the concept thereof). I guess it’s only anecdata there, but I don't think I’m wildly off base with my experience.
  - yourapostasy 6y ago
    > ...encountered women who stigmatize female homemakers... I've read plenty of rants from both genders of stay-at-home dads getting snubbed by stay-at-home moms from their play groups, brunches, and other social activities. I think the stigma against stay-at-home dads hasn't gone away, just shifted to different venues.
Nextgrid 6y ago
> Why do women have to emulate men to be valuable? I don't think it's a men vs women issue. Our current society is structured in such a way that work is necessary to survive & thrive - it is usually not possible to take a lengthy break from work without financial & career consequences. Whether you are taking that break for childcare or (to pick a typical men's stereotype) drinking beer & having BBQ's with your friends every day doesn't make a difference.
kmclean 6y ago
Interestingly, single, childless women are also the happiest population demographic. (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-h...) I don't disagree homemaking should be less stigmatized, but the real problem is American startup culture that expects this kind of around-the-clock all-in hustle mentality. The vast majority of businesses are actually just small firms with a few people that make a decent living. That's the lifestyle that should be celebrated and desirable. There's no reason running a business can't be compatible with having a family, we just need to re-define what it looks like to run a company. The focus should be on sustainability and balance, not growth at any cost.
- enko123 6y ago
  Not remotely believable.
  - danbolt 6y ago
    What makes you feel that way? Do you think the narrative might be more complicated than what the parent suggests?
- dpoochieni 6y ago
  What did you expect them to say? That they are unhappy. I take this kind of investigation with a pinch of salt. It can be a case of the ladies doth protest too much of their happiness. In my personal experience, many complain of loneliness as they grow older.
- landryraccoon 6y ago
  I wonder what the data looks like if you regress happiness onto age for single women. I have no difficulty believing single, childless women are very happy in their 20s and 30s. I wonder though if that rapidly changes past 40. I would hypothesize the same effect happens for men as well.
  - yocheckitdawg 6y ago
wayoutthere 6y ago
Fixing this would require raising wages to the point where a single income can support a family. Until that’s the case, both parents have to work unless you’re wealthy (not a high earner; actually wealthy). I would just ask yourself who in society benefits from this situation and who loses. It doesn’t have to be this way, but we keep electing politicians who promise to keep it this way (on both sides of the aisle). If the US had a viable left it would be different; but we don’t. Other countries have solved these problems to some degree. We need to stop acting like taking care of people and funding social programs is the next step to Stalinism (but again, think of who is saying this and how it threatens their power).
- souprock 6y ago
  That clearly isn't the financial situation in the USA. Here I am, a software developer, supporting a family of 14 on a single income. I'm definitely not wealthy. I couldn't do that in Manhattan of course, so I don't live in Manhattan.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
giantg2 6y ago
"I think there’s this idea that all men love career life because it pays the bills. In reality it’s far from a pipe dream existence." I completely agree.
vbtemp 6y ago
> I think women have largely been presented a false promise by progressives There's a lot of sneering and judgment by women, toward women who choose to be a stay at home mom and not have a career.
- TuringTest 6y ago
  The value behind that attitude is that it is a problem to think that women are the ones expected to choose staying-at-home, when culturally this expectation should be distributed equally among genders.
  - LeonardMenard 6y ago
    Yes, exactly. I am disappointed (but not sneering nor contemptuous) when I find out that another one of my well-educated and ambitious female peers has decided to become a stay-at-home mom. Not because I don't think it's a valuable or valid role to play, but because I have absolutely zero equivalent male peers who have done the same thing. Another well-educated women who choose to give up her career and stay at home, without a corresponding man doing the same, is just another data point that makes MY career look invalid, and sees MY career as optional. Like, more power to her, but it does make me sad at the state of society.
    - vbtemp 6y ago
      All of the time when I hear that commentary, it has to do with them finding stay-at-home moms unintelligent, petty, vapid.
      - TuringTest 6y ago
        You're literally replying to a post not following that pattern. This "all of the time" is uncalled for.
- yourapostasy 6y ago
  > There's a lot of sneering and judgment by women... Do you think they would feel differently if the bar to owning a home was lowered to one-income household, 20% DTI, 20-year mortgage, no more than 3% interest, 10% down, no PMI? I suspect a lot of distortions come from a very misaligned house purchase requirements to income availability picture.
jlos 6y ago
I think this is due to at least 2 factors: 1) The success of movements for gender equality actually make the excesses of those movements hard to critique. 2) Treating a problem as a choice. The problem is having a home that is relatively clean with 3 healthy and enjoyable meals a day for 2 adults and children. Having one adult focus on income earning while another focuses on household management is a solution many families find works for them. There are others. 2 career focused adults with a nanny is an option if those careers have enough earning power. Some immigrant families here in Canada will have the entire extended family live in a single (large) residence. The grandparents do childcare and household maintenance while all the adults work. Most media seem to treat family arrangement as people dictating their political philosophy onto those less powerful when in reality the vast majority are managing trade-offs in time, finances, lifestyle, and career. 3) The increasing tendency to optimize society for the upper end of the wealth distribution. When a woman becomes a fortune 500 CEO, supreme court judge, or in any other way reaches the upper echelon of society this is treated as a victory for women as a identity class, even though such victories have no material benefit to the 99% of women who lead normal lives near the median. Ideally, society optimizes for the median while allowing outliers to path to success. But that requires a level of nuance and flexibility that doesn't seem to have much place in public life.
soheil 6y ago
There is something wrong with the argument that women need to think of raising kids and staying home as ambitious as anything anyone does including those working 16 hours/day jobs and building a career that rewards proportionally, ie. lawyers at top firms, surgeons etc. Incidentally this is orthogonal to if men raise the kids or women. You can’t equate the two. The stigma is not entirely irrational. Raising kids is the default thing humans do, graduating at the top of your law school and becoming a partner at Cravath, Swaine & Moore is not.
Draiken 6y ago
I don't believe this is sexism at its core. The entire west society is built on the one axiom that work means value. Everything else is extra. That's even worse in the US. I'm in a similar situation where I'd love to be a parent full-time and be essentially free to live my life. But I could never do that even if my wife wanted to work and let me stay at home. With one person's salary, you can't really sustain a house unless you drastically drop your living standards. It's not really a choice. We have allowed companies to lower the value of work, drastically forcing every being in a household to work as soon as possible. Society has bought into this making any choice that is not work/career feel like a wrong choice. Regardless of sex, the problem is the work culture itself.
- dolni 6y ago
  If all companies decided to 4x all salaries tomorrow, the cost of all the things we pay for would rise drastically, offsetting whatever extra you're making. The answer is not as simple as "companies should just pay more."
  - astrange 6y ago
    It would not "offset whatever you're making". The economy isn't set up so the most cynical option is true. (I can beat you in cynicism anyway - most people don't have salaries so you'd now outbid non-workers such as the elderly by 4x what you did before.) This is currently coming up as people claiming all stimulus bills will cause inflation, but there's no inflation in the US for the last 30 years, when we did have it the cause was an energy price spike, and so they have no empirical evidence.
    - dolni 6y ago
      The problem is not inflation. The problem is if you raise everyone's salary, the cost to produce increases. Therefore the cost of products must go up.
      - astrange 6y ago
jberryman 6y ago
> presented a false promise by progressives I think this is a poor framing for the rest of your comment, which is essentially a feminist critique of patriarchy and capitalism, and how patriarchy/capitalism is a harmful structure to men as well. Progressives are totally on board with this.
- Kye 6y ago
  I was on the train to goofball-ville a long, long time ago because I thought the goofballs were the only ones making these critiques of binarist advocacy focused on one part of the problem. Fortunately I found that feminists made them earlier and better than any MRA type person could ever hope to. Give me any number of Judith Butlers or bell hookses over the sharpest "intellectual dark web" genius.
- cloudier 6y ago
  +1000 It’s just way easier to help women achieve success in a way that helps capitalists than it is to push for better working conditions for parents. But pushing for better working conditions isn’t impossible either, and the US is an extreme outlier in how hostile it is to working parents.
FooBarBizBazz 6y ago
> In order to have a society of power career couples, someone has to raise their kids. [... Y]ou have to find someone [...] to be your nanny [...]. I don't see how that’s a sustainable narrative [...]. Bomb some more countries. Make some more refugees. Problem solved. In England, when the aspiring middle classes started finding it impossible to afford servants (which was a problem, because that was a key mark of their status), they started taking in kids from workhouses to serve them, and made it out to be some kind of charity. When that ran out they started up guest worker programs. A notable one took poor Jewish women fleeing a certain German government. Win-win, right?
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  I believe some economists has this idea for the US a few years back (sponsor an immigrant) and were greeted with peals of laughter.
Barrin92 6y ago
I don't think this is some false progressive promise at all. Work is freedom and independence. Through work people express themselves at a cognitive and creative level. It's not just about 'snazzy careers'. It's about self-realization. When given the choice in countries with tons of generous child welfare policies like in much of Europe, women still defer pregnancy and prefer to get an education or a job, and I don't blame them because honestly most people grow tired of being a stay-at-home parent very quickly. It's just a menial, not really inspiring, and not very social job. I know a lot of guys who said the same thing you said, that they'd love to stay at home. All who did now work again full-time, some even admitted directly to me how much they hated it after only a few months and how much they missed work. I think this attempt to romanticize stay-at-home parenting is basically cultural nostalgia. It's also interesting that you frame it as a women's job as others have pointed out, because the only reason women had to do it in the past is because they didn't get much of a say in the matter.
d1zzy 6y ago
> but we should not discourage homemaking and stigmatize people who want to raise children. Nor should we stigmatize those that do not have a career and do not have children. Because that's a thing too. So it rather seems that the stigma depends on having a career than having kids. Having kids is just a common reason for why many women might not have the time to have a career but not the only one.

by dcow 6y ago

core-questions 6y ago

> Of course women should follow their heart and we should build a society that allows them to do so on equal terms, but we should not discourage homemaking and stigmatize people who want to raise children. I think that many women do actually have the desire to be mothers in their hearts, and that they repress this desire in the current social context because having children is no longer something that confers high status upon you. Changing that would fix the birth rate. As a man, I do actually feel empowered and somehow more complete and grounded by virtue of having a family; but I know that before I had kids, I didn't really look at dads that way. Changing that perception, returning the family to a position of honor rather than just portraying it as a drag that stops you from doing all the great fun stuff out there in the world, would do wonders on that front. Sometimes it feels like a concerted effort has taken place to knock the family off of the pedestal.

david-gpu 6y ago
Somebody is down voting you, possibly because of the non-gender-neutral language, but I agree with your message: we currently overvalue wealth and job status and undervalue the joy of raising a family. I switched to a 4-day week to find a better work-life balance and couldn't be happier. Time with my kids is more valuable than the salary cut.
- core-questions 6y ago
  I get downvoted continually because I post edgy things like "eating meat is okay" and "you should consider having a family" etc. I'm used to it, comment karma is largely meaningless, and sometimes the rate limiting helps make sure I have composed my thoughts well before responding. Very envious of your 4-day week! I do 6-7 days worth of work in 5 days and it's slowly killing me. Still finding time for the kids somehow, but the result is no sleep or recreation time for myself... the switch from office to WFH life has not been a blessing in terms of work/life balance.
  - david-gpu 6y ago
    Been there, done that. Burned out. Twice. Eventually learned that I can't achieve everything I want on every facet of my life. I am not superhuman. The day only has 24 hours. Something had to give. I was in a position in which I could afford to work less, so that's what I did. Now I'm mediocre at a few things in my life rather than being great at one at the cost of everything else, and I couldn't be happier with that decision.
    - core-questions 6y ago
      There's wisdom there. Maybe I will find a way to step back a little when I move on to my next gig...

madamelic 6y ago

>I think people have largely been presented a false promise: value and purpose is derived from working outside the home. FTFY. As you state further in, it's not women's exclusive job to be child-rearing nor is it not 'work' to maintain and run a house.

silvestrov 6y ago
You'll have to accept that running a house is much less work today than it was 150 years ago when there was no fridge, no hover, no washing mashine, no ready-made food. Today a single mom with full time job can still run a (not too big) house. So to be fullfilling there has to be more than just keeping the house clean and people fed, which is probably why so many upper-upper-middle class women have a part-time job running some kind of fashion store.
- sturgill 6y ago
  > Today a single mom with full time job can still run a (not too big) house. Until COVID hits and children have to be taught virtually from home. There are no easy and cheap answers here, but a series of trade offs. I think the original question is “where is the conversation of the trade off?” I don’t think it’s settled that the ideal social structure involves a dual income family. And I think very few people envy the workload required of single mothers, regardless of technical advances that make cleaning a home easier. Caregiving goes well beyond making sure the kids have clean underwear.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

rcpt 6y ago

In other nations where the state provides good childcare women have historically entered the workforce just fine. It's the US (and especially California) that drains everything possible from young families.

koverda 6y ago
Could you elaborate on why California especially?
- nostrademons 6y ago
  Not OP, but in the major Californian metropolises housing has a way of sucking out all available resources. There are lots of people and not enough land, which means that people have a tendency to bid up the price of available housing up to the very maximum that they can afford to pay. As a result, wages are high, but it all goes to landlords or previous homeowners. Worse, this applies down the income ladder, such that childcare workers, cashiers, waiters, etc. are also living at the edge of subsistence because of housing. As a result, the price of these services gets bid up as well. This affects everybody but tends to affect families more than singles, because they can't bunk with roommates and they require a lot more services that involve paying other people. This isn't really California-specific: families in Eureka, Merced, and Bakersfield do just fine (except for it being boring and not having many opportunities). But most people associate "California" with either the Bay Area or LA, and both of those metros have lots of money flowing in, lots of people flowing in, and restrictive zoning that keeps housing scarce.
  - astrange 6y ago
    There's plenty of land in CA for infill development; the problem is it has one-story single family houses on it, and CA has banned development everywhere so nobody can replace them with something more sensible like a fourplex or a multi-story building. If we could, things would get cheaper, and traffic might even get better (since commutes would improve.)
- rcpt 6y ago

endisneigh 6y ago

I couldn't agree more. I've been wondering if we're moving further or closer to the ideal you describe. As more excluded groups move towards unfettered capitalism, I wonder if we'll be lift with a huge gap to fill in the "bleeding heart" jobs, e.g. being a home maker, social worker, etc.

mbgerring 6y ago

I think the economics of raising children plays a much greater role than stigma or culture.

austincheney 6y ago

Actually, why must the family homemaker necessarily be a woman? If in a male/female relationship the female is the more ambitious one prioritize the male as the primary care giver. Either way raising children still takes time, energy, and focus that could otherwise pile into something else. While there are differences in general approaches males and females take in raising children I don't think there is any research indicating females are necessarily better than males, or the contrary. The reductio ad absurdum of it is that males tend to be more challenging and females tend to be nurturing, but those distinctions are highly variable.

foolinaround 6y ago
>family homemaker necessarily be a woman Women, making a broad assumption, seem to have the traits (honed over millemia) of watching over the family. But in a household, if the husband and wife exhibit the opposite traits, then that must be encouraged too. I know of a family in which the woman is the bread-winner, the husband takes care of the kids and home, and both are happy.
dcow 6y ago
1. I didn't say it needs to be a women, I am highlighting that there’s a stigma against women performing that role today. 2. The problem is exactly with the characterization (that you made) of the “more ambitious” route being the career route. Why do we assume having a career requires more ambition than wanting to raise a healthy family?
- david-gpu 6y ago
  > I am highlighting that there’s a stigma against women performing that role today That is true, but there's an even bigger stigma against men who want to perform that role. Sure, you may find a very career-driven spouse who would be happy with you taking the role of the caregiver, but that is not a common occurrence. The man who does not provide substantial income to the family will find it much harder to find a partner than a woman in the same situation. Talking about heterosexual couples here, of course.
- 6y ago

llimos 6y ago

1000% this. > Why do women have to emulate men to be valuable? Growing up in a "traditional" family, the first thing that struck me when I went to work at a big investment bank was how the women did everything they could to be like men - all the way down to dress. I remember thinking, this is called equality? That what men traditionally did is clearly so much better, so women now need to become men, and we should celebrate the achievement that they are now free to do so? I mean, yes, obviously if they want to, the fact that they can is a good thing. But the fact that they almost need to, is not.

judge2020 6y ago
It might not be emulating men as much as it is simply dressing business casual or business professional because it’s required while in the office.
ARandumGuy 6y ago
Did they act and dress like men because of "equality," or because that's the only way they can actually be taken seriously?
- lambda_obrien 6y ago
  I like the film short by pixar called "Purl" for this.
- zo1 6y ago
  Sounds like we jumped the gun a bit on that? Maybe we should have "changed" people's minds and values regarding gender first before we shoved everyone into a conforming box, and then wondered about the "consequences" and their unwillingness to play along.
deleted 6y ago
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vmception 6y ago

> Being a mother without a snazzy career is frowned upon by plenty of people these days. I don't think that stigma is healthy. Why do women have to emulate men to be valuable? I used to think that, but then I found out that many people aren't trying to emulate men, they are trying to do a more encompassing thing, juggling an unprecedented number of roles and responsibilities surpassing what has been human in nature. So, basically, even worse than emulating men. My observation is that a lot of this is based on an assumption that men want to be in corporate careers. As in, pursuing a corporate/intellectual blue collar or white collar career is not an optional checkbox of pride for men that want to exchange time for food and shelter and have a female partner. I think if this was acknowledged for how it is interdependent in the state of the world it would help even out representation and many other strifes, as opposed to gendering the problems and invalidating problems based on priority.

everdrive 6y ago
>is not an optional checkbox of pride for men that want to exchange time for food and shelter and have a female partner This is something that crosses my mind often. Work has some perks, but I would NEVER have taken a career so seriously if I never wanted to get married.
- giantg2 6y ago
  I would have quit my current job years ago if I didn't have to support my family.

foolinaround 6y ago

this is also a big reason why several women who have chosen to stay home and look after family and kids feel unfulfilled because many of their peers are seen as more valuable by society. The reason for this unhappiness is then portrayed as the inability of the women to not have a career. it is often, the other way around.

everdrive 6y ago
Joke's on both parties, huh? Can you imagine feeling particular pride because you are important in some random company?

HuShifang 6y ago

I completely agree with the point here -- people should have the freedom to work a bit less and "live" more (however they define that, be it parenting, pursuing hobbies, or what have you) without fear for their livelihood. I would offer one amendment: in the US at least, disagreement on this theme is probably one of the major dividing lines between liberals and progressives (and their fellow travelers). Liberals (like Elizabeth Warren, who has labeled herself a progressive but is generally liberal in her policy positions) prioritize free child care and other policies that would make outsourcing childcare less financially onerous, freeing people to work more; progressives and their fellow travelers (like Bernie Sanders and Andrew Yang) prioritize paid family leave, UBI, and other policies that would minimize the need to outsource childcare in the first place by allowing people to work less.

amelius 6y ago

Meanwhile it is impossible for many people to own a house without a double income... So your idea makes sense, but not in today's economy.

Karawebnetwork 6y ago

> Why do women have to emulate men to be valuable? Why do we assume that those behaviors are inherently a man's? Women that have a drive to become business leaders do so for personal reasons and not to emulate anyone (except perhaps personal heroes who could happen to be women). You later speak about a wish to become a stay-at-home father. Is this emulating women or is it a wish based on activities that are not inherently gendered such as cooking and taking care of children?

dcow 6y ago
My point is not that these behaviors are inherently those of a man. It’s that success should be defined much more broadly than “things men traditionally do”. I think we are in agreement on that I may have not done the best job at capturing the point.
- Karawebnetwork 6y ago
  But is being a start-up founder really something that men traditionally do or is it a completely new role that people of all genders can aim for? This role can be toxic and lead to problematic behaviours that can worsen a person's personal life and mental health, regardless of their gender identity.
  - africanboy 6y ago
    it's something that men have traditionally done, yes. it's like the beard, it's traditionally something that, in general, men have and women don't. that doesn't mean that things can't change in the future and that the change won't be for the better.
    - Karawebnetwork 6y ago
      Some of my personal idols from the past are Coco Chanel, Estée Lauder and Katharine Graham. That would be women born in the 1880's, 1900's and early 1920's. While few women had the privilege required to focus on their career, it was still present. At what point should we mark something as "tradition"? Remember that the Equal Credit Opportunity Act was not a thing until 1974. Until then, banks required single, widowed or divorced women to bring a man along to cosign any credit application, regardless of their income.

elliekelly 6y ago

> I think women have largely been presented a false promise by progressives: value and purpose is derived from work, go do what men do to be their equal. It’s not necessarily anybody’s fault, we live in a society where money is valued. But I wish we could structure society in a way such that the value of raising children, homemaking, is clearly communicated and understood. Being a mother without a snazzy career is frowned upon by plenty of people these days. I don't think that stigma is healthy. Why do women have to emulate men to be valuable? Why ask these questions only as they relate to women and motherhood? Why haven't men being presented a false promise that value and purpose is derived from work? Being a father without a snazzy career is equally (if not more so) frowned upon by plenty of people these days. I don't think that stigma is healthy, either. Why do men have to emulate other men to be "valuable"? Why do men have to avoid emulating women to be "valuable"? > Couple that with the fact that depression is most prevalent among childless women in their 40s I don't know your source for this but you should at least consider the possibility that women, particularly women with financial resources (childless women in their 40s, for example), are significantly more likely to seek mental health treatment compared to similarly situated men. Correlation is not causation and more women being treated for depression does not necessarily mean more women are depressed.

dcow 6y ago
100% agree that any stigma against being a stay at home dad (viewing the issue from the opposite angle as you ask) is also unhealthy. In my personal journey, at least, I have not encountered men who stigmatize my desire to be a stay at home dad but I have (surprisingly often) encountered women who stigmatize female homemakers (or the concept thereof). I guess it’s only anecdata there, but I don't think I’m wildly off base with my experience.
- yourapostasy 6y ago
  > ...encountered women who stigmatize female homemakers... I've read plenty of rants from both genders of stay-at-home dads getting snubbed by stay-at-home moms from their play groups, brunches, and other social activities. I think the stigma against stay-at-home dads hasn't gone away, just shifted to different venues.

Nextgrid 6y ago

> Why do women have to emulate men to be valuable? I don't think it's a men vs women issue. Our current society is structured in such a way that work is necessary to survive & thrive - it is usually not possible to take a lengthy break from work without financial & career consequences. Whether you are taking that break for childcare or (to pick a typical men's stereotype) drinking beer & having BBQ's with your friends every day doesn't make a difference.

kmclean 6y ago

Interestingly, single, childless women are also the happiest population demographic. (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-h...) I don't disagree homemaking should be less stigmatized, but the real problem is American startup culture that expects this kind of around-the-clock all-in hustle mentality. The vast majority of businesses are actually just small firms with a few people that make a decent living. That's the lifestyle that should be celebrated and desirable. There's no reason running a business can't be compatible with having a family, we just need to re-define what it looks like to run a company. The focus should be on sustainability and balance, not growth at any cost.

enko123 6y ago
Not remotely believable.
- danbolt 6y ago
  What makes you feel that way? Do you think the narrative might be more complicated than what the parent suggests?
dpoochieni 6y ago
What did you expect them to say? That they are unhappy. I take this kind of investigation with a pinch of salt. It can be a case of the ladies doth protest too much of their happiness. In my personal experience, many complain of loneliness as they grow older.
landryraccoon 6y ago
I wonder what the data looks like if you regress happiness onto age for single women. I have no difficulty believing single, childless women are very happy in their 20s and 30s. I wonder though if that rapidly changes past 40. I would hypothesize the same effect happens for men as well.
- yocheckitdawg 6y ago

wayoutthere 6y ago

Fixing this would require raising wages to the point where a single income can support a family. Until that’s the case, both parents have to work unless you’re wealthy (not a high earner; actually wealthy). I would just ask yourself who in society benefits from this situation and who loses. It doesn’t have to be this way, but we keep electing politicians who promise to keep it this way (on both sides of the aisle). If the US had a viable left it would be different; but we don’t. Other countries have solved these problems to some degree. We need to stop acting like taking care of people and funding social programs is the next step to Stalinism (but again, think of who is saying this and how it threatens their power).

souprock 6y ago
That clearly isn't the financial situation in the USA. Here I am, a software developer, supporting a family of 14 on a single income. I'm definitely not wealthy. I couldn't do that in Manhattan of course, so I don't live in Manhattan.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

giantg2 6y ago

"I think there’s this idea that all men love career life because it pays the bills. In reality it’s far from a pipe dream existence." I completely agree.

vbtemp 6y ago

> I think women have largely been presented a false promise by progressives There's a lot of sneering and judgment by women, toward women who choose to be a stay at home mom and not have a career.

TuringTest 6y ago
The value behind that attitude is that it is a problem to think that women are the ones expected to choose staying-at-home, when culturally this expectation should be distributed equally among genders.
- LeonardMenard 6y ago
  Yes, exactly. I am disappointed (but not sneering nor contemptuous) when I find out that another one of my well-educated and ambitious female peers has decided to become a stay-at-home mom. Not because I don't think it's a valuable or valid role to play, but because I have absolutely zero equivalent male peers who have done the same thing. Another well-educated women who choose to give up her career and stay at home, without a corresponding man doing the same, is just another data point that makes MY career look invalid, and sees MY career as optional. Like, more power to her, but it does make me sad at the state of society.
  - vbtemp 6y ago
    All of the time when I hear that commentary, it has to do with them finding stay-at-home moms unintelligent, petty, vapid.
    - TuringTest 6y ago
      You're literally replying to a post not following that pattern. This "all of the time" is uncalled for.
yourapostasy 6y ago
> There's a lot of sneering and judgment by women... Do you think they would feel differently if the bar to owning a home was lowered to one-income household, 20% DTI, 20-year mortgage, no more than 3% interest, 10% down, no PMI? I suspect a lot of distortions come from a very misaligned house purchase requirements to income availability picture.

jlos 6y ago

I think this is due to at least 2 factors: 1) The success of movements for gender equality actually make the excesses of those movements hard to critique. 2) Treating a problem as a choice. The problem is having a home that is relatively clean with 3 healthy and enjoyable meals a day for 2 adults and children. Having one adult focus on income earning while another focuses on household management is a solution many families find works for them. There are others. 2 career focused adults with a nanny is an option if those careers have enough earning power. Some immigrant families here in Canada will have the entire extended family live in a single (large) residence. The grandparents do childcare and household maintenance while all the adults work. Most media seem to treat family arrangement as people dictating their political philosophy onto those less powerful when in reality the vast majority are managing trade-offs in time, finances, lifestyle, and career. 3) The increasing tendency to optimize society for the upper end of the wealth distribution. When a woman becomes a fortune 500 CEO, supreme court judge, or in any other way reaches the upper echelon of society this is treated as a victory for women as a identity class, even though such victories have no material benefit to the 99% of women who lead normal lives near the median. Ideally, society optimizes for the median while allowing outliers to path to success. But that requires a level of nuance and flexibility that doesn't seem to have much place in public life.

soheil 6y ago

There is something wrong with the argument that women need to think of raising kids and staying home as ambitious as anything anyone does including those working 16 hours/day jobs and building a career that rewards proportionally, ie. lawyers at top firms, surgeons etc. Incidentally this is orthogonal to if men raise the kids or women. You can’t equate the two. The stigma is not entirely irrational. Raising kids is the default thing humans do, graduating at the top of your law school and becoming a partner at Cravath, Swaine & Moore is not.

Draiken 6y ago

I don't believe this is sexism at its core. The entire west society is built on the one axiom that work means value. Everything else is extra. That's even worse in the US. I'm in a similar situation where I'd love to be a parent full-time and be essentially free to live my life. But I could never do that even if my wife wanted to work and let me stay at home. With one person's salary, you can't really sustain a house unless you drastically drop your living standards. It's not really a choice. We have allowed companies to lower the value of work, drastically forcing every being in a household to work as soon as possible. Society has bought into this making any choice that is not work/career feel like a wrong choice. Regardless of sex, the problem is the work culture itself.

dolni 6y ago
If all companies decided to 4x all salaries tomorrow, the cost of all the things we pay for would rise drastically, offsetting whatever extra you're making. The answer is not as simple as "companies should just pay more."
- astrange 6y ago
  It would not "offset whatever you're making". The economy isn't set up so the most cynical option is true. (I can beat you in cynicism anyway - most people don't have salaries so you'd now outbid non-workers such as the elderly by 4x what you did before.) This is currently coming up as people claiming all stimulus bills will cause inflation, but there's no inflation in the US for the last 30 years, when we did have it the cause was an energy price spike, and so they have no empirical evidence.
  - dolni 6y ago
    The problem is not inflation. The problem is if you raise everyone's salary, the cost to produce increases. Therefore the cost of products must go up.
    - astrange 6y ago

jberryman 6y ago

> presented a false promise by progressives I think this is a poor framing for the rest of your comment, which is essentially a feminist critique of patriarchy and capitalism, and how patriarchy/capitalism is a harmful structure to men as well. Progressives are totally on board with this.

Kye 6y ago
I was on the train to goofball-ville a long, long time ago because I thought the goofballs were the only ones making these critiques of binarist advocacy focused on one part of the problem. Fortunately I found that feminists made them earlier and better than any MRA type person could ever hope to. Give me any number of Judith Butlers or bell hookses over the sharpest "intellectual dark web" genius.
cloudier 6y ago
+1000 It’s just way easier to help women achieve success in a way that helps capitalists than it is to push for better working conditions for parents. But pushing for better working conditions isn’t impossible either, and the US is an extreme outlier in how hostile it is to working parents.

FooBarBizBazz 6y ago

> In order to have a society of power career couples, someone has to raise their kids. [... Y]ou have to find someone [...] to be your nanny [...]. I don't see how that’s a sustainable narrative [...]. Bomb some more countries. Make some more refugees. Problem solved. In England, when the aspiring middle classes started finding it impossible to afford servants (which was a problem, because that was a key mark of their status), they started taking in kids from workhouses to serve them, and made it out to be some kind of charity. When that ran out they started up guest worker programs. A notable one took poor Jewish women fleeing a certain German government. Win-win, right?

selimthegrim 6y ago
I believe some economists has this idea for the US a few years back (sponsor an immigrant) and were greeted with peals of laughter.

Barrin92 6y ago

I don't think this is some false progressive promise at all. Work is freedom and independence. Through work people express themselves at a cognitive and creative level. It's not just about 'snazzy careers'. It's about self-realization. When given the choice in countries with tons of generous child welfare policies like in much of Europe, women still defer pregnancy and prefer to get an education or a job, and I don't blame them because honestly most people grow tired of being a stay-at-home parent very quickly. It's just a menial, not really inspiring, and not very social job. I know a lot of guys who said the same thing you said, that they'd love to stay at home. All who did now work again full-time, some even admitted directly to me how much they hated it after only a few months and how much they missed work. I think this attempt to romanticize stay-at-home parenting is basically cultural nostalgia. It's also interesting that you frame it as a women's job as others have pointed out, because the only reason women had to do it in the past is because they didn't get much of a say in the matter.

d1zzy 6y ago

> but we should not discourage homemaking and stigmatize people who want to raise children. Nor should we stigmatize those that do not have a career and do not have children. Because that's a thing too. So it rather seems that the stigma depends on having a career than having kids. Having kids is just a common reason for why many women might not have the time to have a career but not the only one.