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L.A. restaurants struggle with a new form of dine-and-dash

130 points by hbcondo714 6y ago

birdyrooster 6y ago
The delivery companies should share fraud data and require deposits for people who have bad credit or have been previously found to commit fraud. If chexsystems can stop a fraudster from using a bad check at a retail store then certainly we can come up with analogous schemes for food delivery.
- ev1 6y ago
  They [delivery apps, via third party device fingerprinting/etc SDKs] actually do share a ton of data with each other and pre-cancel orders for certain people. It's kind of horrifying in terms of just how much data is being sold when you make a simple pickup order. It doesn't help when someone places a card-not-present phone order reading off the number, though.
kodah 6y ago
I was expecting some casualties due to fraud from this rapid change in so many industries so I'm not too surprised at the content of this article. I work in near proximity to an anti-fraud team and the stuff I hear people get up to is incredibly elaborate. Some folks are small time criminals like the guy with a van in this story but others are quite large organized crime rings. The thing they all have in common is that they're almost always ahead.
zerocrates 6y ago
A quasi-related anecdote: a place I'd been pretty regularly making pickup orders at over the phone recently asked I pay upfront, read-out-card-number style. (Normally I'd just pay in person when picking up) Apparently they'd been having too many people place orders and just never come pick them up. It's not exactly "dine-and-dash" but it hurts the restaurant pretty similarly. Of course, since then I order online from this place, so there's probably some extra service charge they're losing, too.
- spbaar 6y ago
  what could possibly cause this to start now, many many months into lockdown? just boredom?
  - userbinator 6y ago
    More and more people are running out of money due to unemployment or whatever else the pandemic has caused.
    - totalZero 6y ago
      They run out of money between when they place the order and when they had expected to pick it up?
- dataflow 6y ago
  > Apparently they'd been having too many people place orders and just never come pick them up. It's not exactly "dine-and-dash" but it hurts the restaurant pretty similarly. I'd always wondered if this happens a ton at restaurants, and how they deal with it. Any ideas how frequent these are normally (pre-COVID)?
  - zerocrates 6y ago
    No idea really, but it must happen to some extent all the time basically... like people ordering then rejecting pizzas, things like that. I can't imagine it's a hugely significant number just because places do just take phone orders (barring some covid-related changes where some don't take in person payment at all). Plus if you actually like the place you can only pull something like this so often before you get blacklisted... And it's not like you're even ending up with food if you do this, so what's the percentage in it for you? Still, I assume if you're putting in a big order some (most?) places would want prepay or some other "skin in the game" or something. Not that it helps if the "customer" uses a stolen card and/or just charges you back, though, as we see in this article.
- effingwewt 6y ago
villgax 6y ago
This entire process needs recorded video proof of packing & opening. Users not abiding will face higher fees etc.
spbaar 6y ago
I can't believe individual resteraunts have to deal with credit card fraud through these services, and it's not a value add. maybe that's how payment processors want to handle things, but still, it would be very easy for these services to act as an escrow service. many already require photo proof of delivery and encourage the sealing of bags by the resteraunt. one more photo upload before that and you have auditable chain of custody, no blockchain required
the_only_law 6y ago
One thing I’ve noticed about delivery apps: It’s pretty common, especially from certain restaurants I just completely get the wrong thing. This is particularly bad at a certain well know national coffee chain. I don’t drink coffee, but I like some of their teas and many times I’ve just been given a random coffee instead of what I’ve ordered. If I choose to report an incorrect item, I have to provide a photo alongside some text documenting it. If I report a missing item I’m instantly issues a refund no questions asked. Now I understand it’s a lot more difficult to verify a missing item, but still...
- travisjungroth 6y ago
  People have been proved to ask their item didn’t get delivered. My favorite was someone sent back a shot of the empty spot on their desk where the computer equipment should have been.
  - Ekaros 6y ago
    What really is needed is to go back the good old days. And that is signing for what you received. Though that is hard in with today's schedules. But it is responsibility of receiver to go over the shipping manifest and verify that each and every item is present and appears not to be damaged... Protects all parties.
    - unhallowed 6y ago
      I don't even get the opportunity to inspect and sign when a common carrier is delivering a "shipper required signature" package and, because it's a big ticket item, I want to. They just sign for me and leave it sitting outside without even a doorbell ring.
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      Balancing risk, cost, and convenience is a better goal than eliminating risk at any cost and inconvenience. Suppose I get a 75 line item order from Digi-Key. Is the delivery person expected to wait while I check the package contents against the manifest (a human-powered N*N operation)? Am I expected to drop whatever I’m doing to do 45 minutes of material receiving inspection on my doorstep? What weather conditions might make that untenable? If I come up short, should I inspect everything a second time to make sure I didn’t make a mistake? Same for a 25-person team meal. Chris ordered “no peppers”, let’s make sure we find that one. Mary got extra cheese on hers. That must be this one...
asciident 6y ago
Frauds, scams, and other forms of dishonesty have exploded. From phone scams, to unemployment fraud, and marketplace scams, to retail cheats. Many people are thinking with an adversarial and self-optimizing mindset. I think based on this trend, we'll soon see a call for centralized identity over privacy to curtail these.
gluck167 6y ago
Chargebacks on credit cards work well for business owners only in high trust societies - there is too much scope for abuse. If a similar chargeback system existed in countries like India, people would abuse the shit out of it - which is why even regular card transactions have two factor auth there.
- qrbLPHiKpiux 6y ago
  I would love to see demographic data on chargebacks in the US
  - sjg007 6y ago
    Credit cards are making it more difficult you have to first call The restaurant for a legit dispute and then call your cc company to continue a dispute. Gone are the days of one click disputes.
albertgoeswoof 6y ago
Being on the other end of this sucks hard though. It’s super frustrating to order food and have it turn up with half the order missing. One of the problems is because the delivery company is a complete middle man that takes on zero accountability for the order. For example, if an Uber eats or Deliveroo driver turns up with the wrong order, they can do literally nothing about it. If a company that employees it’s own delivery staff (eg Domino’s, supermarket chains, independents restaurants etc.) shows up with a bad order, they will go back and fix it, because it’s cheaper for everyone to do that. Outsourcing delivery to another company works for restaurants that have limited delivery orders and no marketing channel, but is it really sustainable? If they have consistent volume it would certainly be easier for them to have their own drivers, as has been the case since the telephone was invented.
- panorama 6y ago
  There have also been documented cases where delivery drivers for 3rd parties will eat part of your meal. There are many potential nodes of failure throughout this entire chain. [0] https://www.businessinsider.com/uber-eats-delivery-drivers-eating-food-2019-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/uber-eats-delivery-drivers-e... [1] https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2019/10/31/uber-eats-grubhub-postmates-delivery-driver-eating-food/ https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2019/10/31/uber-eats-grubhub...
  - PurpleFoxy 6y ago
    The whole food delivery sector looks like it’s on the verge of collapse. Incredibly unsustainable for everyone.
    - sjg007 6y ago
      It never was sustainable except for pizza and maybe Chinese food.
  - jack_pp 6y ago
    In Bucharest all my delivery bags are stapled so it would be impossible to open non-destructively and consume the food
xenihn 6y ago
The story about the guy in the van is so upsetting. Fuck that guy.
onion2k 6y ago
I'm a little surprised delivery app companies don't give restaurants a guide to all these anti-fraud measures when they sign up. Restaurants are good at making food, not designing secure systems. The fact they're having to think up how to avoid fraud themselves is incredibly dumb. The real problem is that the app companies have very little incentive to stop fraud unless it gets so bad that they lose a restaurant. If they took a small percentage of the loss (say, 5%) when it happens they'd be massively more invested in stopping it.
- duskwuff 6y ago
  > The real problem is that the app companies have very little incentive to stop fraud The app companies have plenty of incentive to stop customers from defrauding them (e.g. by using stolen credit cards); they simply have no incentive to stop customers from defrauding the restaurants, because that doesn't come out of their pocket.
  - londons_explore 6y ago
    Restaurants will keep track of profit and loss for each app. If an app has too much fraud they'll remove themselves from the app. The only time that doesn't work is if there is only one app in a small town or city.
    - Nextgrid 6y ago
      The delivery platforms have a near-monopoly and are equally scummy, so unless you’re a household name customers will jump through extra hoops to order from (like going direct to your website), you have no choice but to accept this if you want to compete.
      - londons_explore 6y ago
        True, but there are many delivery apps, and you can choose to be listed on only some of them, even if you're a small restaurant. Likewise, at peak times when you can't take any more orders, you'll disable the least profitable app first.
techsupporter 6y ago
A place I used to get takeaway from started requiring ID to pick up orders, which I’ve no problem with if they want to just look. But the last time I went to get an order, the employee turned down my passport card. The manager on duty said they require an ID with a scannable code, like on the back of state-issued cards. Problem is, I don’t drive and don’t carry a state-issued ID. Just a passport card since they became available about a decade ago. No scan, no order. I walked away and haven’t been back since. This whole situation sucks but that’s a bit much.
- PurpleFoxy 6y ago
  It’s such a pain when this catches you out. I walk around with no form of ID and only bring it when I’m expecting to need it but every now and then I get caught out. Ordered something from apple and went to pick it up and was refused without ID. But I have the QR code for the order from their app. No one else could have got that QR code.
  - _Microft 6y ago
    > I walk around with no form of ID and only bring it when I’m expecting to need it May I ask why? Is it of inconvenient size, do you not like to carry baggage that you do not need most of the time or is it just that you do not want to be easily identifiable most of the time? The German "Personalausweis" (official id card, distinct from passports) is sized and shaped like a credit card and therefore easily goes into the wallet. We used to have larger ones in the past which indeed did not fit into some wallets. It is also very convenient to have it on you to be able to identify yourself in whatever situation.
    - PurpleFoxy 6y ago
      I don’t carry a wallet anymore. I typically leave the house with just my phone, Apple Watch and sometimes AirPods. That covers almost everything I need. I just find a wallet to be very bulky while I almost never need it. I’m technically identifiable by holding the button on my watch or the medical id button on my watch. I’m just not legally identifiable.
nostrademons 6y ago
A lot of this may be errors in the more-complicated delivery supply chain rather than intentional dishonesty, or intentional dishonesty on the part of someone other than the (listed) customer. We've had our delivery orders show up next door. Orders for next door show up on our doorstep. Orders for somebody the next block over show up on our doorstep. Orders go completely missing. Dashers pick up the wrong order at the restaurant. Restaurants pack the wrong item into the wrong order. Restaurants leave off an item. Platforms display menu items that the restaurant isn't actually selling. In most cases, when our order doesn't show up, we call the platform and get the charge refunded, or sometimes have the order resent. But when we've called a platform to say that we got somebody else's meal, they might be looking for it, they tell us "Well, it's yours now." We've gotten a few free lunches (and one free order of ~$200 worth of groceries) this way, making up for the many missing items and occasional lost grocery delivery. We assumed that the platform is eating (no pun intended) the cost of this, but maybe they're just passing it along to the restaurant. Some of this is also generic credit card & identity theft. We had our bank account number stolen a few months ago; you damn well bet we're going to call and shut down that account and get those charges reversed, and whoever's providing services to someone with fraudulent payment methods is going to eat the costs.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- papiangle346 6y ago
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Proven 6y ago
That's what you get when you micromanage (I'm talking about California and state rules and regulations).
bbarnett 6y ago
What I find astonishing, is how much things have changed in a mere 30 years. Back then, I was working at a local pizza place. I'd worked there for 6 years, both in high school, as a delivery person, and eventually as the main cook/whatnot, in College. We made as much as we could from scratch. Many pizza places order everything pre-made, pre-cut, including sauce and dough. We made our own dough, sauce, tonnes of home-made prep. Anyhow, back in the day... we used this thing called "cash". It worked perfectly fine, too. People would place orders, then show up and pay with .... cash! People would place delivery orders, and pay with ... cash! Out of 500+ orders a night, maybe... perhaps once a week, rarely twice a week, we'd have one customer not pick up their order. And... we'd eat it! Problem solved. There were no charge backs. No concept of someone showing ID?! To buy food?! No worries about losing 2-5% to the bank/cards. No online ordering. No one had any issues with this, because this was how everyone did it. Everywhere. If there was a large order, people would pre-pay for some of it. I'm taking, 20 pizzas + chicken+spaghetti dinners or some such. Per-paying for large orders upset no one, it was logical and sensible. I get that today, as everyone has "bought in" to the idea of using credit cards, that people have little choice. One must compete with other restaurants, or lose money. And even I, I strong advocate for cash, tends to carry less of it. But I still wonder ; just who has won here, and who as lost? Have the restaurants won? Well, no. They pay more, have to have additional hardware, have issues with chargebacks, and more. And do customers benefit? Not really, for everyone is paying 3 to 5% more for food, just to cover charge costs and losses, and then many of the people paying? Are sometimes paying 25%, or even double, once they get around to paying off their card a year later. No one wins. Except the banks.
- Arnt 6y ago
  Well, nowadays you won't get as many fake bills, and you don't have to pay the banks as much for armed guards that drive cash from place to place in an armed truck.
  - cycomanic 6y ago
    Not sure how much you paid for banking, but where I was it was always free or very low charges, nowhere close to even 2% of all your payments (which is a minimum estimate for credit card charges).
vmception 6y ago
>We are used to working with private chefs that may have households, and they sometimes have multiple cards. Didn't realize that was so common in Santa Monica and LA for that to be a real sentence. I want that What a country
tracer4201 6y ago
We ordered food maybe three weeks ago using DoorDash. There was food missing on a $70 order plus tip. I have no idea if the driver kept it, if the restaurant messed up, or if the system didn’t even properly give them my order. Recently I stopped using Uber. In my city, I’ll get paired with a 4.9 or 5 star Uber driver who accepts the trip but then will drive past the street or drive in a weird pattern just a few blocks away but never actually stop to pick me up. Four out of five times I cancelled and got charged a cancellation fee. I disputed and Uber refunded me. The fifth time I didn’t cancel and waited to see how long this driver would screw around. Eventually HE cancelled and then I got an email from Uber saying that I was reported for not wearing a mask. The service industry is ripe with scammers. I’ve basically stopped using it. And Uber has gotten legitimately expensive enough that it’s cheaper for me to buy a new Corolla and pay for insurance and gas.
- whymauri 6y ago
  >And Uber has gotten legitimately expensive enough that it’s cheaper for me to buy a new Corolla and pay for insurance and gas. Uh, is this hyperbole?
  - bsder 6y ago
    Probably depends upon how expensive Uber is. If you are spending $500/month on Uber, buying the car is probably cheaper. In my part of the world, that's only about 10 rides. I could see that.
  - InvaderFizz 6y ago
    Depends on your usage pattern. My wife's Uber usage in 2019 was financially a wash versus getting a $20k car, insurance, and gas. Uber has the advantage of not needing to find parking downtown and my wife hates driving.
  - berryjerry 6y ago
    Depends how much is being ordered. Some people live off of delivered food now. 3 meals a day at probably a minimum of $10 per order in delivery or 'surcharges', same thing. That's 900 a month.
bambax 6y ago
> The reason for the dispute was listed as “other fraud card absent” (the real cardholder said someone else used their credit card number). That is a regulation problem. If a card was used fraudulently, but the restaurant correctly delivered the order, then the restaurant shouldn't be held responsible for the fraud. The bank, or Visa, should be. Refund the customer, let the restaurant keep the funds, have Visa take the fall.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  If restaurants complain about 3% processing fees now, they will definitely be unhappy with the new fees...
  - rtpg 6y ago
    That is what the 3% is for! It’s the point of the fees! The whole reason for everything is fraud and points By the way fraud at current levels are covered by like a few of 0.25% IIRC I imagine that whatever app isn’t using 3D secure like it should be, cuz then the bank/card processor is liable in fraud cases. But this is far from a new problem in principle.
  - oliwarner 6y ago
    3%?! Wtf America? That's double what the rest of the world is paying. I've seen 1% for some industries in the UK. This is home delivery. Why isn't there an AVS layer to acknowledge fraud risk? Or 3DS to better authenticate payments? If either fail, let the restaurant refuse it. Taking trusted payments can't be this hard. It's bad for everyone.
    - vkou 6y ago
      > 3%?! Wtf America? That's double what the rest of the world is paying. I've seen 1% for some industries in the UK. Does your credit card give you 1-3% in cash-back? Because mine does. That cashback is why the merchants are paying 3%.
      - 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
TuringNYC 6y ago
>> On Nov. 25, Tock sent Hwang an email letting her know the customer was disputing the $728.76 charge and the payment had been temporarily removed from her account. The reason for the dispute was listed as “other fraud card absent” (the real cardholder said someone else used their credit card number). I feel really bad for this restaurant owner. Wouldn't a solution be to have the card present at pickup for confirmation/swipe? How much benefit does the establishment get from a phone/internet swipe vs an in-person swipe on pickup?
- dm33tri 6y ago
  In my country we have 2FA on most of the internet payments by debit/credit card. Also most people use debit and it’s nearly impossible to dispute the payment, but IMO relying on services (Uber Eats) rather than banks is simpler.
_tom_ 6y ago
It's not all fraud. I've recently started ordering from a national fast food restaurant that does curbside delivery. Of five orders, four had problems. This is curbside, no one but me and the employee touched my order. If someone pre-covid forgot the fries in the order, you just say "you forgot my fries", and you get your fries. Now, someone makes it, someone else bags it, someone ELSE picks it up, puts it in their car, and delivers it to some address contact free. There is a chance for error at each step. By the time you know something's wrong, there's nothing really to be done, except ask for a refund. Grocery delivery is similar. It's normal for an order to have a mistake in it. No fraud, just "extra bag" or "missing bag", and we've always be able to find it. The systems are new, and don't have good safeguards built in yet. I think the main problem (in addition to fraud) is there are too many moving parts, and most of them are new. Things like reminders: "That order is still waiting to be carried out to the car" or "did you give them all the bags expected?" aren't built into systems yet, and so you get issues. Add a third party delivery service to the above, and you just get more of the same.
- londons_explore 6y ago
  The shop could put a security seal on the bags, and number them. Then issues in the delivery chain can easily be detected.
  - mbirth 6y ago
    The 24-hour restaurant with the golden arches does this here. Incidentally, it's one of those delivery/takeout restaurants we've had a lot of mishaps with in the past. Mostly, because the people packing the bags get distracted and someone else moves them around or they don't read the labels on the customised burgers, etc. However, I've always notified (in a friendly tone) their customer service and suggested they train their employees a bit more - and it helped. Had no issues there in the last 2 years.
victor9000 6y ago
I really don't like the idea of people handling my food when they're not affiliated with the restaurant, so I avoid delivery apps altogether. Instead I call it in and pick it up myself, this way I can be sure that the food is properly handled and that the restaurant gets to keep a bigger share of the profit from the sale.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  I do the same; my main motivation is hotter food and lower/more predictable latency.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  The problem is that those scummy delivery platforms have taken over the market. A lot of restaurants no longer have in-house delivery staff and only rely on said platforms for delivery. Some won’t even accept collection orders over the phone, forcing you to use the platforms even if you’re happy to pick up in-person and would simply like to order in advance.
  - tristan957 6y ago
    Easy solution is to not patronize those place. Put your money where your mouth is.
- goblin89 6y ago
  I noticed the trend of switching from eating out to getting delivered meals in pre-pandemic years in countries like mainland China and South Korea. I’m not a fan of it, and perhaps there’s more to that than just the subjective “oh no, things are bad because they aren’t the way they used to be” bias on my side. — Visiting a restaurant in person gives a glimpse of how they operate (Bourdain’s “clean toilets” measure and all), which seems important when discovering new places. Without that, you have to mostly rely on online optics when determining whether they’re even sanitary (doesn’t sound realistic to expect government regulation to frequently check every single place that prepares food for delivery). — Near impossibility of establishing anything resembling a personal relationship between yourself and people who prepare your meal and/or the business owner, and indeed those you trust to bring it to you. The former applies more to smaller restaurants, but they are incidentally also the places one would feel most inclined to consciously support. — Further contribution to sedentary/low-mobility lifestyle. — Uncertainty about how much of your payment goes to the restaurant and also comes into play, though I already wonder about that every time I pay with plastic. — When choosing to dine at a place that also does delivery (with delivery workers visibly coming in and leaving), it could be hard to shake the feeling of being in a place where other customers would rather pay someone they don’t know to go rather than coming in person. — Somewhat tangentially, a walk in Seoul became almost hazardous because of delivery scooters ignoring traffic rules with deafening noise—trying to squeeze as many deliveries in an hour as possible, while shaving costs on mufflers and/or vehicle maintenance. Presumably, this also has to do with specifics of local law enforcement, but I can’t help but think how dominance of meal delivery could change the walkability and urban landscape of any city over longer term. The trend was boosted by the pandemic and I hope it will fall back afterwards. Small but quality local restaurants and cafes can be satisfying to discover and visit when you can.
fxtentacle 6y ago
There's also the issue of faulty menus on those delivery platforms. DeliveryHero for example appears to be using generic stock photos to illustrate the dishes, I presume based on keywords. The result is that your food very rarely looks like on the website. Also, the support staff from those platforms obviously don't know how a dish is supposed to be, so they'll just apologize to the customer even if everything was correct. In combination, the led to me one time accidentally report a dish as missing. I had ordered something called a "burger inspiration" and the picture on the website was a regular burger. But I received a soup instead. So I called to ask what happened. The support guy apologized, confirmed that it should have been a proper burger with bread and stuff, and offered to fix it. Later, another soup arrived. With a bit of research, I found a PDF of the restaurants in person menu and indeed the dish is supposed to be a soup. It's just that neither me nor DeliveryHero knew that... I'm guessing there's little incentive for them to improve their online menu listings or to fix confusing images, because the restaurant, not them, will pay the price.
- Skhalar 6y ago
  There really isn't. Most people wouldn't put in the effort to get an order fixed, especially in a large cities because of the delivery times. To the company its just the cost of down business.
JCharante 6y ago
It seems like delivery apps have a more helpful contest process for restaurants. I know credit cards are deeply ingrained, but it's sad to see an non-existent ecosystem of one-directional payments. Apps like MocaPay or AliPay don't allow such fraud, and it seems like some restaurants might be better off if they went cash only. I certainly don't mind going to an atm every week to grab a hundred bucks for my purchases. ATMs in the US usually have even greater daily withdrawal limits. In a trustless society cash is king (I mean I suppose there can be money counterfeiting but I suppose the USSS can help you setup a sting op)
mjevans 6y ago
Filing a police report is probably the next legally expected step. Sadly, there's one more step the restaurant _should_ be taking here. The part in the thread where the place of business is scanning something off the IDs made me think of it. The reason they want the scan is as a way of taking a photo of proof of identity and residence to send the police after on a fraud report. Particularly if it's for multiple hundred dollars. That's still small claims court, but with that much evidence it's pretty cut and dry.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 6y ago
Could be easily avoided with cash or crypto payments, in exchange for a discount. But credit card companies forbid cash discounts, which I'm convinced is a fraudulent tactics and should be addressed through legislation.
- berryjerry 6y ago
  This is a real issue. I didn't think it was actually forbidden though but maybe that changed. For years Arco gas station had discounts for using cash.
sjg007 6y ago
One would think that the delivery service like door dash would pay for the meal with their card and then the customer pays door dash with their card so the insurer in this case is door dash. That’s what I would expect, not a pass thru sale.
jimmyvalmer 6y ago
If reported accurately, what an intensely classless scam by the old Asian guy! It's one thing to steal bread when your family's starving. It's another bizarrely gluttonous thing to gorge on $700 worth of catering at the restaurant's expense.
maxerickson 6y ago
It's unfortunate that her options are "close" and "extend Tock a line of credit which they clearly don't deserve".
nunez 6y ago
Emphasis mine. < The order was placed through the Tock platform for pickup on Nov. 18. ***Hwang noticed the customer did not include his vehicle information (make and model of the car) on the order form, her standard procedure since switching exclusively to curbside takeout and delivery during the pandemic. She texted the customer directly and he didn’t respond. But Hwang, happy to receive such a large order, wasn’t alarmed.*** Extremely poor risk management on her part. I get being happy to get a large sale (I've sold handfuls of phones and electronics over the years), but if you let the numbers cloud your judgement, you can't be surprised when you learn that you got duped.
lumberingjack 6y ago
If you're charging nearly $1,000 for four meat lover meals and you are losing money then you should just pack it up let somebody else have the space
- naikrovek 6y ago
  That's a very odd thing to say. "If you charge that much, you deserve to be scammed" is what I hear in my mind. No blame to anyone scamming the business then? No "witty" jibe for them? Just let thieves go? They ordered the food. They knew what it cost. They even paid. But it's the business owner's fault? I do not understand why some people think like they do. You have a FUNDAMENTALLY different idea of right and wrong, to me, I think.
  - cecja 6y ago
    That's just the new American way of life same goes for shady businesses the first comment is usually "bUt ItS nOt AgAiNsT tHe LaW."

130 points by hbcondo714 6y ago

The delivery companies should share fraud data and require deposits for people who have bad credit or have been previously found to commit fraud. If chexsystems can stop a fraudster from using a bad check at a retail store then certainly we can come up with analogous schemes for food delivery.

ev1 6y ago
They [delivery apps, via third party device fingerprinting/etc SDKs] actually do share a ton of data with each other and pre-cancel orders for certain people. It's kind of horrifying in terms of just how much data is being sold when you make a simple pickup order. It doesn't help when someone places a card-not-present phone order reading off the number, though.

kodah 6y ago

I was expecting some casualties due to fraud from this rapid change in so many industries so I'm not too surprised at the content of this article. I work in near proximity to an anti-fraud team and the stuff I hear people get up to is incredibly elaborate. Some folks are small time criminals like the guy with a van in this story but others are quite large organized crime rings. The thing they all have in common is that they're almost always ahead.

zerocrates 6y ago

A quasi-related anecdote: a place I'd been pretty regularly making pickup orders at over the phone recently asked I pay upfront, read-out-card-number style. (Normally I'd just pay in person when picking up) Apparently they'd been having too many people place orders and just never come pick them up. It's not exactly "dine-and-dash" but it hurts the restaurant pretty similarly. Of course, since then I order online from this place, so there's probably some extra service charge they're losing, too.

spbaar 6y ago
what could possibly cause this to start now, many many months into lockdown? just boredom?
- userbinator 6y ago
  More and more people are running out of money due to unemployment or whatever else the pandemic has caused.
  - totalZero 6y ago
    They run out of money between when they place the order and when they had expected to pick it up?
dataflow 6y ago
> Apparently they'd been having too many people place orders and just never come pick them up. It's not exactly "dine-and-dash" but it hurts the restaurant pretty similarly. I'd always wondered if this happens a ton at restaurants, and how they deal with it. Any ideas how frequent these are normally (pre-COVID)?
- zerocrates 6y ago
  No idea really, but it must happen to some extent all the time basically... like people ordering then rejecting pizzas, things like that. I can't imagine it's a hugely significant number just because places do just take phone orders (barring some covid-related changes where some don't take in person payment at all). Plus if you actually like the place you can only pull something like this so often before you get blacklisted... And it's not like you're even ending up with food if you do this, so what's the percentage in it for you? Still, I assume if you're putting in a big order some (most?) places would want prepay or some other "skin in the game" or something. Not that it helps if the "customer" uses a stolen card and/or just charges you back, though, as we see in this article.
effingwewt 6y ago

villgax 6y ago

This entire process needs recorded video proof of packing & opening. Users not abiding will face higher fees etc.

spbaar 6y ago

I can't believe individual resteraunts have to deal with credit card fraud through these services, and it's not a value add. maybe that's how payment processors want to handle things, but still, it would be very easy for these services to act as an escrow service. many already require photo proof of delivery and encourage the sealing of bags by the resteraunt. one more photo upload before that and you have auditable chain of custody, no blockchain required

the_only_law 6y ago

One thing I’ve noticed about delivery apps: It’s pretty common, especially from certain restaurants I just completely get the wrong thing. This is particularly bad at a certain well know national coffee chain. I don’t drink coffee, but I like some of their teas and many times I’ve just been given a random coffee instead of what I’ve ordered. If I choose to report an incorrect item, I have to provide a photo alongside some text documenting it. If I report a missing item I’m instantly issues a refund no questions asked. Now I understand it’s a lot more difficult to verify a missing item, but still...

travisjungroth 6y ago
People have been proved to ask their item didn’t get delivered. My favorite was someone sent back a shot of the empty spot on their desk where the computer equipment should have been.
- Ekaros 6y ago
  What really is needed is to go back the good old days. And that is signing for what you received. Though that is hard in with today's schedules. But it is responsibility of receiver to go over the shipping manifest and verify that each and every item is present and appears not to be damaged... Protects all parties.
  - unhallowed 6y ago
    I don't even get the opportunity to inspect and sign when a common carrier is delivering a "shipper required signature" package and, because it's a big ticket item, I want to. They just sign for me and leave it sitting outside without even a doorbell ring.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    Balancing risk, cost, and convenience is a better goal than eliminating risk at any cost and inconvenience. Suppose I get a 75 line item order from Digi-Key. Is the delivery person expected to wait while I check the package contents against the manifest (a human-powered N*N operation)? Am I expected to drop whatever I’m doing to do 45 minutes of material receiving inspection on my doorstep? What weather conditions might make that untenable? If I come up short, should I inspect everything a second time to make sure I didn’t make a mistake? Same for a 25-person team meal. Chris ordered “no peppers”, let’s make sure we find that one. Mary got extra cheese on hers. That must be this one...

asciident 6y ago

Frauds, scams, and other forms of dishonesty have exploded. From phone scams, to unemployment fraud, and marketplace scams, to retail cheats. Many people are thinking with an adversarial and self-optimizing mindset. I think based on this trend, we'll soon see a call for centralized identity over privacy to curtail these.

gluck167 6y ago

Chargebacks on credit cards work well for business owners only in high trust societies - there is too much scope for abuse. If a similar chargeback system existed in countries like India, people would abuse the shit out of it - which is why even regular card transactions have two factor auth there.

qrbLPHiKpiux 6y ago
I would love to see demographic data on chargebacks in the US
- sjg007 6y ago
  Credit cards are making it more difficult you have to first call The restaurant for a legit dispute and then call your cc company to continue a dispute. Gone are the days of one click disputes.

albertgoeswoof 6y ago

Being on the other end of this sucks hard though. It’s super frustrating to order food and have it turn up with half the order missing. One of the problems is because the delivery company is a complete middle man that takes on zero accountability for the order. For example, if an Uber eats or Deliveroo driver turns up with the wrong order, they can do literally nothing about it. If a company that employees it’s own delivery staff (eg Domino’s, supermarket chains, independents restaurants etc.) shows up with a bad order, they will go back and fix it, because it’s cheaper for everyone to do that. Outsourcing delivery to another company works for restaurants that have limited delivery orders and no marketing channel, but is it really sustainable? If they have consistent volume it would certainly be easier for them to have their own drivers, as has been the case since the telephone was invented.

panorama 6y ago
There have also been documented cases where delivery drivers for 3rd parties will eat part of your meal. There are many potential nodes of failure throughout this entire chain. [0] https://www.businessinsider.com/uber-eats-delivery-drivers-eating-food-2019-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/uber-eats-delivery-drivers-e... [1] https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2019/10/31/uber-eats-grubhub-postmates-delivery-driver-eating-food/ https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2019/10/31/uber-eats-grubhub...
- PurpleFoxy 6y ago
  The whole food delivery sector looks like it’s on the verge of collapse. Incredibly unsustainable for everyone.
  - sjg007 6y ago
    It never was sustainable except for pizza and maybe Chinese food.
- jack_pp 6y ago
  In Bucharest all my delivery bags are stapled so it would be impossible to open non-destructively and consume the food

xenihn 6y ago

The story about the guy in the van is so upsetting. Fuck that guy.

onion2k 6y ago

I'm a little surprised delivery app companies don't give restaurants a guide to all these anti-fraud measures when they sign up. Restaurants are good at making food, not designing secure systems. The fact they're having to think up how to avoid fraud themselves is incredibly dumb. The real problem is that the app companies have very little incentive to stop fraud unless it gets so bad that they lose a restaurant. If they took a small percentage of the loss (say, 5%) when it happens they'd be massively more invested in stopping it.

duskwuff 6y ago
> The real problem is that the app companies have very little incentive to stop fraud The app companies have plenty of incentive to stop customers from defrauding them (e.g. by using stolen credit cards); they simply have no incentive to stop customers from defrauding the restaurants, because that doesn't come out of their pocket.
- londons_explore 6y ago
  Restaurants will keep track of profit and loss for each app. If an app has too much fraud they'll remove themselves from the app. The only time that doesn't work is if there is only one app in a small town or city.
  - Nextgrid 6y ago
    The delivery platforms have a near-monopoly and are equally scummy, so unless you’re a household name customers will jump through extra hoops to order from (like going direct to your website), you have no choice but to accept this if you want to compete.
    - londons_explore 6y ago
      True, but there are many delivery apps, and you can choose to be listed on only some of them, even if you're a small restaurant. Likewise, at peak times when you can't take any more orders, you'll disable the least profitable app first.

techsupporter 6y ago

A place I used to get takeaway from started requiring ID to pick up orders, which I’ve no problem with if they want to just look. But the last time I went to get an order, the employee turned down my passport card. The manager on duty said they require an ID with a scannable code, like on the back of state-issued cards. Problem is, I don’t drive and don’t carry a state-issued ID. Just a passport card since they became available about a decade ago. No scan, no order. I walked away and haven’t been back since. This whole situation sucks but that’s a bit much.

PurpleFoxy 6y ago
It’s such a pain when this catches you out. I walk around with no form of ID and only bring it when I’m expecting to need it but every now and then I get caught out. Ordered something from apple and went to pick it up and was refused without ID. But I have the QR code for the order from their app. No one else could have got that QR code.
- _Microft 6y ago
  > I walk around with no form of ID and only bring it when I’m expecting to need it May I ask why? Is it of inconvenient size, do you not like to carry baggage that you do not need most of the time or is it just that you do not want to be easily identifiable most of the time? The German "Personalausweis" (official id card, distinct from passports) is sized and shaped like a credit card and therefore easily goes into the wallet. We used to have larger ones in the past which indeed did not fit into some wallets. It is also very convenient to have it on you to be able to identify yourself in whatever situation.
  - PurpleFoxy 6y ago
    I don’t carry a wallet anymore. I typically leave the house with just my phone, Apple Watch and sometimes AirPods. That covers almost everything I need. I just find a wallet to be very bulky while I almost never need it. I’m technically identifiable by holding the button on my watch or the medical id button on my watch. I’m just not legally identifiable.

nostrademons 6y ago

A lot of this may be errors in the more-complicated delivery supply chain rather than intentional dishonesty, or intentional dishonesty on the part of someone other than the (listed) customer. We've had our delivery orders show up next door. Orders for next door show up on our doorstep. Orders for somebody the next block over show up on our doorstep. Orders go completely missing. Dashers pick up the wrong order at the restaurant. Restaurants pack the wrong item into the wrong order. Restaurants leave off an item. Platforms display menu items that the restaurant isn't actually selling. In most cases, when our order doesn't show up, we call the platform and get the charge refunded, or sometimes have the order resent. But when we've called a platform to say that we got somebody else's meal, they might be looking for it, they tell us "Well, it's yours now." We've gotten a few free lunches (and one free order of ~$200 worth of groceries) this way, making up for the many missing items and occasional lost grocery delivery. We assumed that the platform is eating (no pun intended) the cost of this, but maybe they're just passing it along to the restaurant. Some of this is also generic credit card & identity theft. We had our bank account number stolen a few months ago; you damn well bet we're going to call and shut down that account and get those charges reversed, and whoever's providing services to someone with fraudulent payment methods is going to eat the costs.

deleted 6y ago
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papiangle346 6y ago
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Proven 6y ago

That's what you get when you micromanage (I'm talking about California and state rules and regulations).

bbarnett 6y ago

What I find astonishing, is how much things have changed in a mere 30 years. Back then, I was working at a local pizza place. I'd worked there for 6 years, both in high school, as a delivery person, and eventually as the main cook/whatnot, in College. We made as much as we could from scratch. Many pizza places order everything pre-made, pre-cut, including sauce and dough. We made our own dough, sauce, tonnes of home-made prep. Anyhow, back in the day... we used this thing called "cash". It worked perfectly fine, too. People would place orders, then show up and pay with .... cash! People would place delivery orders, and pay with ... cash! Out of 500+ orders a night, maybe... perhaps once a week, rarely twice a week, we'd have one customer not pick up their order. And... we'd eat it! Problem solved. There were no charge backs. No concept of someone showing ID?! To buy food?! No worries about losing 2-5% to the bank/cards. No online ordering. No one had any issues with this, because this was how everyone did it. Everywhere. If there was a large order, people would pre-pay for some of it. I'm taking, 20 pizzas + chicken+spaghetti dinners or some such. Per-paying for large orders upset no one, it was logical and sensible. I get that today, as everyone has "bought in" to the idea of using credit cards, that people have little choice. One must compete with other restaurants, or lose money. And even I, I strong advocate for cash, tends to carry less of it. But I still wonder ; just who has won here, and who as lost? Have the restaurants won? Well, no. They pay more, have to have additional hardware, have issues with chargebacks, and more. And do customers benefit? Not really, for everyone is paying 3 to 5% more for food, just to cover charge costs and losses, and then many of the people paying? Are sometimes paying 25%, or even double, once they get around to paying off their card a year later. No one wins. Except the banks.

Arnt 6y ago
Well, nowadays you won't get as many fake bills, and you don't have to pay the banks as much for armed guards that drive cash from place to place in an armed truck.
- cycomanic 6y ago
  Not sure how much you paid for banking, but where I was it was always free or very low charges, nowhere close to even 2% of all your payments (which is a minimum estimate for credit card charges).

vmception 6y ago

>We are used to working with private chefs that may have households, and they sometimes have multiple cards. Didn't realize that was so common in Santa Monica and LA for that to be a real sentence. I want that What a country

tracer4201 6y ago

We ordered food maybe three weeks ago using DoorDash. There was food missing on a $70 order plus tip. I have no idea if the driver kept it, if the restaurant messed up, or if the system didn’t even properly give them my order. Recently I stopped using Uber. In my city, I’ll get paired with a 4.9 or 5 star Uber driver who accepts the trip but then will drive past the street or drive in a weird pattern just a few blocks away but never actually stop to pick me up. Four out of five times I cancelled and got charged a cancellation fee. I disputed and Uber refunded me. The fifth time I didn’t cancel and waited to see how long this driver would screw around. Eventually HE cancelled and then I got an email from Uber saying that I was reported for not wearing a mask. The service industry is ripe with scammers. I’ve basically stopped using it. And Uber has gotten legitimately expensive enough that it’s cheaper for me to buy a new Corolla and pay for insurance and gas.

whymauri 6y ago
>And Uber has gotten legitimately expensive enough that it’s cheaper for me to buy a new Corolla and pay for insurance and gas. Uh, is this hyperbole?
- bsder 6y ago
  Probably depends upon how expensive Uber is. If you are spending $500/month on Uber, buying the car is probably cheaper. In my part of the world, that's only about 10 rides. I could see that.
- InvaderFizz 6y ago
  Depends on your usage pattern. My wife's Uber usage in 2019 was financially a wash versus getting a $20k car, insurance, and gas. Uber has the advantage of not needing to find parking downtown and my wife hates driving.
- berryjerry 6y ago
  Depends how much is being ordered. Some people live off of delivered food now. 3 meals a day at probably a minimum of $10 per order in delivery or 'surcharges', same thing. That's 900 a month.

bambax 6y ago

> The reason for the dispute was listed as “other fraud card absent” (the real cardholder said someone else used their credit card number). That is a regulation problem. If a card was used fraudulently, but the restaurant correctly delivered the order, then the restaurant shouldn't be held responsible for the fraud. The bank, or Visa, should be. Refund the customer, let the restaurant keep the funds, have Visa take the fall.

sokoloff 6y ago
If restaurants complain about 3% processing fees now, they will definitely be unhappy with the new fees...
- rtpg 6y ago
  That is what the 3% is for! It’s the point of the fees! The whole reason for everything is fraud and points By the way fraud at current levels are covered by like a few of 0.25% IIRC I imagine that whatever app isn’t using 3D secure like it should be, cuz then the bank/card processor is liable in fraud cases. But this is far from a new problem in principle.
- oliwarner 6y ago
  3%?! Wtf America? That's double what the rest of the world is paying. I've seen 1% for some industries in the UK. This is home delivery. Why isn't there an AVS layer to acknowledge fraud risk? Or 3DS to better authenticate payments? If either fail, let the restaurant refuse it. Taking trusted payments can't be this hard. It's bad for everyone.
  - vkou 6y ago
    > 3%?! Wtf America? That's double what the rest of the world is paying. I've seen 1% for some industries in the UK. Does your credit card give you 1-3% in cash-back? Because mine does. That cashback is why the merchants are paying 3%.
    - 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

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TuringNYC 6y ago

>> On Nov. 25, Tock sent Hwang an email letting her know the customer was disputing the $728.76 charge and the payment had been temporarily removed from her account. The reason for the dispute was listed as “other fraud card absent” (the real cardholder said someone else used their credit card number). I feel really bad for this restaurant owner. Wouldn't a solution be to have the card present at pickup for confirmation/swipe? How much benefit does the establishment get from a phone/internet swipe vs an in-person swipe on pickup?

dm33tri 6y ago
In my country we have 2FA on most of the internet payments by debit/credit card. Also most people use debit and it’s nearly impossible to dispute the payment, but IMO relying on services (Uber Eats) rather than banks is simpler.

_tom_ 6y ago

It's not all fraud. I've recently started ordering from a national fast food restaurant that does curbside delivery. Of five orders, four had problems. This is curbside, no one but me and the employee touched my order. If someone pre-covid forgot the fries in the order, you just say "you forgot my fries", and you get your fries. Now, someone makes it, someone else bags it, someone ELSE picks it up, puts it in their car, and delivers it to some address contact free. There is a chance for error at each step. By the time you know something's wrong, there's nothing really to be done, except ask for a refund. Grocery delivery is similar. It's normal for an order to have a mistake in it. No fraud, just "extra bag" or "missing bag", and we've always be able to find it. The systems are new, and don't have good safeguards built in yet. I think the main problem (in addition to fraud) is there are too many moving parts, and most of them are new. Things like reminders: "That order is still waiting to be carried out to the car" or "did you give them all the bags expected?" aren't built into systems yet, and so you get issues. Add a third party delivery service to the above, and you just get more of the same.

londons_explore 6y ago
The shop could put a security seal on the bags, and number them. Then issues in the delivery chain can easily be detected.
- mbirth 6y ago
  The 24-hour restaurant with the golden arches does this here. Incidentally, it's one of those delivery/takeout restaurants we've had a lot of mishaps with in the past. Mostly, because the people packing the bags get distracted and someone else moves them around or they don't read the labels on the customised burgers, etc. However, I've always notified (in a friendly tone) their customer service and suggested they train their employees a bit more - and it helped. Had no issues there in the last 2 years.

victor9000 6y ago

I really don't like the idea of people handling my food when they're not affiliated with the restaurant, so I avoid delivery apps altogether. Instead I call it in and pick it up myself, this way I can be sure that the food is properly handled and that the restaurant gets to keep a bigger share of the profit from the sale.

sokoloff 6y ago
I do the same; my main motivation is hotter food and lower/more predictable latency.
Nextgrid 6y ago
The problem is that those scummy delivery platforms have taken over the market. A lot of restaurants no longer have in-house delivery staff and only rely on said platforms for delivery. Some won’t even accept collection orders over the phone, forcing you to use the platforms even if you’re happy to pick up in-person and would simply like to order in advance.
- tristan957 6y ago
  Easy solution is to not patronize those place. Put your money where your mouth is.
goblin89 6y ago
I noticed the trend of switching from eating out to getting delivered meals in pre-pandemic years in countries like mainland China and South Korea. I’m not a fan of it, and perhaps there’s more to that than just the subjective “oh no, things are bad because they aren’t the way they used to be” bias on my side. — Visiting a restaurant in person gives a glimpse of how they operate (Bourdain’s “clean toilets” measure and all), which seems important when discovering new places. Without that, you have to mostly rely on online optics when determining whether they’re even sanitary (doesn’t sound realistic to expect government regulation to frequently check every single place that prepares food for delivery). — Near impossibility of establishing anything resembling a personal relationship between yourself and people who prepare your meal and/or the business owner, and indeed those you trust to bring it to you. The former applies more to smaller restaurants, but they are incidentally also the places one would feel most inclined to consciously support. — Further contribution to sedentary/low-mobility lifestyle. — Uncertainty about how much of your payment goes to the restaurant and also comes into play, though I already wonder about that every time I pay with plastic. — When choosing to dine at a place that also does delivery (with delivery workers visibly coming in and leaving), it could be hard to shake the feeling of being in a place where other customers would rather pay someone they don’t know to go rather than coming in person. — Somewhat tangentially, a walk in Seoul became almost hazardous because of delivery scooters ignoring traffic rules with deafening noise—trying to squeeze as many deliveries in an hour as possible, while shaving costs on mufflers and/or vehicle maintenance. Presumably, this also has to do with specifics of local law enforcement, but I can’t help but think how dominance of meal delivery could change the walkability and urban landscape of any city over longer term. The trend was boosted by the pandemic and I hope it will fall back afterwards. Small but quality local restaurants and cafes can be satisfying to discover and visit when you can.

fxtentacle 6y ago

There's also the issue of faulty menus on those delivery platforms. DeliveryHero for example appears to be using generic stock photos to illustrate the dishes, I presume based on keywords. The result is that your food very rarely looks like on the website. Also, the support staff from those platforms obviously don't know how a dish is supposed to be, so they'll just apologize to the customer even if everything was correct. In combination, the led to me one time accidentally report a dish as missing. I had ordered something called a "burger inspiration" and the picture on the website was a regular burger. But I received a soup instead. So I called to ask what happened. The support guy apologized, confirmed that it should have been a proper burger with bread and stuff, and offered to fix it. Later, another soup arrived. With a bit of research, I found a PDF of the restaurants in person menu and indeed the dish is supposed to be a soup. It's just that neither me nor DeliveryHero knew that... I'm guessing there's little incentive for them to improve their online menu listings or to fix confusing images, because the restaurant, not them, will pay the price.

Skhalar 6y ago
There really isn't. Most people wouldn't put in the effort to get an order fixed, especially in a large cities because of the delivery times. To the company its just the cost of down business.

JCharante 6y ago

It seems like delivery apps have a more helpful contest process for restaurants. I know credit cards are deeply ingrained, but it's sad to see an non-existent ecosystem of one-directional payments. Apps like MocaPay or AliPay don't allow such fraud, and it seems like some restaurants might be better off if they went cash only. I certainly don't mind going to an atm every week to grab a hundred bucks for my purchases. ATMs in the US usually have even greater daily withdrawal limits. In a trustless society cash is king (I mean I suppose there can be money counterfeiting but I suppose the USSS can help you setup a sting op)

mjevans 6y ago

Filing a police report is probably the next legally expected step. Sadly, there's one more step the restaurant _should_ be taking here. The part in the thread where the place of business is scanning something off the IDs made me think of it. The reason they want the scan is as a way of taking a photo of proof of identity and residence to send the police after on a fraud report. Particularly if it's for multiple hundred dollars. That's still small claims court, but with that much evidence it's pretty cut and dry.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 6y ago

Could be easily avoided with cash or crypto payments, in exchange for a discount. But credit card companies forbid cash discounts, which I'm convinced is a fraudulent tactics and should be addressed through legislation.

berryjerry 6y ago
This is a real issue. I didn't think it was actually forbidden though but maybe that changed. For years Arco gas station had discounts for using cash.

sjg007 6y ago

One would think that the delivery service like door dash would pay for the meal with their card and then the customer pays door dash with their card so the insurer in this case is door dash. That’s what I would expect, not a pass thru sale.

jimmyvalmer 6y ago

If reported accurately, what an intensely classless scam by the old Asian guy! It's one thing to steal bread when your family's starving. It's another bizarrely gluttonous thing to gorge on $700 worth of catering at the restaurant's expense.

maxerickson 6y ago

It's unfortunate that her options are "close" and "extend Tock a line of credit which they clearly don't deserve".

nunez 6y ago

Emphasis mine. < The order was placed through the Tock platform for pickup on Nov. 18. ***Hwang noticed the customer did not include his vehicle information (make and model of the car) on the order form, her standard procedure since switching exclusively to curbside takeout and delivery during the pandemic. She texted the customer directly and he didn’t respond. But Hwang, happy to receive such a large order, wasn’t alarmed.*** Extremely poor risk management on her part. I get being happy to get a large sale (I've sold handfuls of phones and electronics over the years), but if you let the numbers cloud your judgement, you can't be surprised when you learn that you got duped.

lumberingjack 6y ago

If you're charging nearly $1,000 for four meat lover meals and you are losing money then you should just pack it up let somebody else have the space

naikrovek 6y ago
That's a very odd thing to say. "If you charge that much, you deserve to be scammed" is what I hear in my mind. No blame to anyone scamming the business then? No "witty" jibe for them? Just let thieves go? They ordered the food. They knew what it cost. They even paid. But it's the business owner's fault? I do not understand why some people think like they do. You have a FUNDAMENTALLY different idea of right and wrong, to me, I think.
- cecja 6y ago
  That's just the new American way of life same goes for shady businesses the first comment is usually "bUt ItS nOt AgAiNsT tHe LaW."