10 ms·
Optimal boarding method for airline passengers (2008)
- ipnon 6y agoHigh speed trains in Taiwan have rotating seats, so if your loved one sits in front of you they can rotate their row to face you. A similar setup in airplanes would solve the biggest impediment to implementing the optimal method, that "I'm not leaving my child!"
- sokoloff 6y agoI can’t imagine the seat pitch in economy on any airliner is nearly large enough to permit rotation. Removing even a single row of seats is probably worse for airline economics than the amount by which it would speed boarding or add flexibility. (US law also prohibits car seats from being installed in rear-facing seats in aircraft; that law I think is a slight detriment to safety, but it is the law.)
- tyingq 6y agoYeah, it's pretty cool, but wouldn't work with airline seat pitch: https://youtu.be/6-ee-eZtUKc https://youtu.be/6-ee-eZtUKc There is a design where the middle seat is further back than the aisle and window seats. It would help in a different way...it's easier to get in and out of the seats. There's even an option to slide the aisle seat in during boarding, though I'm somewhat skeptical about that. It does make the middle seat more desirable than it currently is, by making it wider and solving the armrest problem. https://www.fastcompany.com/3067612/this-redesigned-airplane-row-will-make-you-want-the-middle-seat https://www.fastcompany.com/3067612/this-redesigned-airplane...
- nsxwolf 6y agoI am picturing a seat where the seat itself is stationary but the back slides forward or back on a track. Tray tables could be the style that stow in the seat and flip up and over.
- sokoloff 6y agoIf you look at the side view of seated people, the incline of the upper body and the nesting of feet under legs of next row pax works against you for club seating (seating which faces each other) and works for you for all forward seating. If you look at the sibling comment’s video, you can see that the pelvis of humans seated back-to-back is farther apart than what you can achieve in today’s all forward-facing seating. People are willing to some extent to nest feet with people they know but probably don’t want to sit 90° upright for over an hour.
- Izkata 6y agoLike these (except for the tray): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxDrPeb2mxs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxDrPeb2mxs
- jacquesm 6y agoThere is no way an aircraft seat that can rotate would get airline approval for economy class, and then you'd still have the problem of getting a seat not facing forward certified. Usually the only people in rearward facing seats are airline personnel so they can see the cabin and spot issues with the passengers.
- rjsw 6y agoSome military transport aircraft [1] have had all passenger seats facing to the rear. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_VC10#Military_service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_VC10#Military_service
- MaxBarraclough 6y agoAs I understand it, rear-facing feats are generally accepted to be safer, but are far worse for airsickness.
- jacquesm 6y agoSame in vehicles. Another factor: lots of people simply prefer to face forward.
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago> There is no way an aircraft seat that can rotate would get airline approval for economy class Why's that?
- jacquesm 6y agoBecause it would mess up in flight service, would be a mess when it comes to having people get up and go to the loo, would be hard to keep an eye on during ascent/descent and so on, and besides it would only work for the outer seats of a row, and somehow the geometry of the inner seats would have to remain undisturbed (shared arm rests), and that's before we get to talk about the weight. It's a funny idea which works on trains because the rows are much narrower and the weight isn't a consideration, nor do trains typically have in transit meal service tray tables mounted in the backs of the seats before them.
- IgorPartola 6y agoMyth Busters did an episode about this. Basically they found that the optimal method mathematically did not get high satisfaction marks and the most satisfying method was definitely not the fastest. I guess we value fairness more than we value overall efficiency. https://mythresults.com/airplane-boarding https://mythresults.com/airplane-boarding
- harha 6y agoOn the fairness aspect: one issue is checking in hand luggage and the perception that boarding first will increase the chances of avoiding that and the wait at the luggage belt after the flight. There are several things to improve: 1. it would be good to inform about the need to check luggage before walking through the whole airport or at least giving that option, it’s very annoying to carry luggage around only for it to be checked in at the last moment. 2. incentives would be nice, eg if a flight is fully booked, why not add a small amount of extra weight if you volunteer to check in the hand luggage. 3. primarily check in those who also have checked in luggage. I’ve often been on flights where they check in the hand luggage of some people, then you end up waiting with many others who took the hand luggage on board and are waiting for checked luggage. 4. Let people upgrade for a small fee last minute, say 5-10$ to avoid checking in, but only as a last measure. Once the luggage is dealt with I don’t see why anyone would care - I’d prefer boarding last in that case.
- easton 6y agoIf you knew you’d be able to check your too big to carryon bag at the gate for free you would never pay the cost of checking it before security (unless it is too large to fit through the X-ray scanner at TSA).
- xboxnolifes 6y agoOr if you're packing things that can't go in carry-ons.
- harha 6y agoYou can solve that by not offering it as a default option, but rather only when the need arises. Here's a case: Say you have a flight booked at 125/120 seats, there's 80 spots overhead: - expect 5 not to come (120 left) - 25 have booked checked luggage, offer them to hand in their carry on (95 left) - for the remaining 15 until enough people take the offer: offer a higher quota when they check in their hand luggage, e.g. 12kg instead of 8kgs as long as the luggage is the same size - if anything remains only then use the old system pretty sure this would be popular, it's less unfair/annoying and takes care of issues in advance at a fairly low cost (of the 15 getting extra weight, not all of these would actually pay for more luggage or even bring more, by not taking more or putting heavy items in jackets etc.)
- the__alchemist 6y agoHere's a derivative Youtube video (CGP grey). It visualizes how different proposed methods work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo
- laurent92 6y agoThe CGP Grey video is particularly visual and well-designed; and especially well described is everyone unboarding after each experiment, using the slowest method of all.
- alisonkisk 6y agoWhat's the slowest method to unboard? Wouldn't it be back to front?
- laurent92 6y agoIt’s: Everyone stands up, and unboarding row by row from the front. It’s polite, but it doesn’t parallelize taking the bags from the overheads, so each bag adds a delay for everyone.
- tjalfi 6y ago(submitter) That video was where I learned about this paper and the impetus for submitting this story.
- scrooched_moose 6y agoHeck, I'm just impressed with it for acknowledging the family issue. Not sure why this is such a popular internet topic, but almost none of the treatments I've seen bother considering it. Any method that starts separating a parent from their 7&9 year olds is a non starter. Even telling a married couple they can't stand in line together for 20 minutes is going to be unpopular and lead to people breaking the system.
- davidrupp 6y agoI worked for several years in the 90's on United Airlines' computer reservation system, on the team that managed seat reservations. I proposed the window-middle-aisle scheme to a task force that wanted to improve boarding times, and they ran a pilot for a while, but never implemented it widely, probably because of how disruptive it was to groups and families. Separately, I have done a lot of flying for business, and I've lost count of how many times I've seen people put their bags in an overhead compartment several rows in front of their assigned seat. The best way to speed up boarding would be to eliminate the overhead compartment entirely. But I don't expect that ever to happen.
- bluejekyll 6y ago> would be to eliminate the overhead compartment entirely. I feel like the incentives are backwards, or not aligned. Airlines are starting to charge for checked baggage, when the overhead compartment is the more valuable asset. They should charge for the overhead space, you get a tag that can be clearly seen from the aisle.
- SilasX 6y agoYeah, I’ve long thought they should charge more for the carryon (or at least for its overhead bin space) than for checked luggage. The latter is more inconvenient for the passenger and imposes fewer real costs on the trip (security screening, boarding/deplaning time). Edit: Earlier discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12439465 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12439465
- xiphias2 6y agoWhy is the overhead component more valuable asset? Every checked in baggage means less cargo on the plane, which is lost money for the airline.
- bluejekyll 6y agoThis is a great point. From the airlines perspective this is true. From passengers perspective I think it’s generally opposite?
- permo-w 6y agoIt absolutely bewilders me that people will queue for half an hour for no other reason than getting into their cramped, uncomfortable seat as quickly as possible People will queue just because other people are queuing, to no concrete end, and we wonder why democracy keeps throwing up such bad eggs
- lumost 6y agoI've always wondered why airlines charge for the privilege of being first on the plane rather than the last...
- icegreentea2 6y agoI always feel like you're actually paying for first dibs on carry-on / overhead baggage positioning. Well, unless you're actually in business/first class.
- ModernMech 6y agoMy strategy is to always be last on the plane. More often than not they will run out of overhead space and gate check my bag for free. Then I don't have to worry about hauling my luggage through the plane. I agree most people want first dibs on overhead baggage bins, but what's the big deal? I never understood this.
- potta_coffee 6y agoI pack very light and I hate checking luggage. To me, it's nice to grab my little bag and immediately exit the airport rather than wait for my luggage. Spaces like airports with tons of people make me anxious and I optimize for getting out as quickly as possible. It's just nice not having a lot of possessions to worry about as well when traveling. Of course, this strategy doesn't work for every kind of trip.
- RobertoG 6y agoThe deal is that when you arrive you have to wait for your bag and sometimes that's a lot of time.
- throwawayboise 6y agoBest boarding strategy is probably for the average person to lose 50 lbs. I've been on planes where some passengers could barely squeeze down the aisle to their seats.
- dfilppi 6y agoIt would be more efficient to slide out the passenger compartment into the terminal for loading and unloading.
- vmception 6y agoTangental note: I recently had a flight that had some backwards seats. My seat was one. First class. I had read for many years that this was the best for passengers but consumers wouldn't accept it. I had always thought that was a bad assumption probably based on some tiny focus group that nobody ever questioned, and look at that, I didn't have a problem with it.
- chrisseaton 6y ago> this was the best for passengers It's only best for when you crash. When you're not crashing (most of the time) most people find it quite a bit less pleasant as it means you're facing down when the aircraft climbs and descends. I'd avoid it pretty strongly when booking seats.
- vmception 6y agoI didn't find it less pleasant, I was glad they ignored the focus groups. I don't get the impression anyone knows how they'd actually feel, given how less common that seating arrangement is. I really enjoyed the angle out of the window.
- chrisseaton 6y ago> given how less common that seating arrangement is It used to be much more common. They seem to have done away with it - I guess based on customer response not just randomly. You can't now because it's mostly gone, but you used to be able to see when booking a seat that all the forward-facing ones were booked before anyone booked a single rearward-facing one. And for example - United Polaris. Replaced a 50/50 forwards-backwards configuration they'd had standard for decades with the overlapping forward-only style almost everyone seems to use now. I associate forward-backward with crusty old 747s and military transport and I think that's how much consumers see it as well - old-fashioned but practical if your passengers are cargo, and certainly not refined or modern.
- zippergz 6y ago
- coding123 6y agoJust drive.
- chrisseaton 6y agoAcross an ocean?
- meepmorp 6y agoYou need to go very fast.
- Steko 6y agoOptimal boarding in 2020's seems like you use an app and based on a party's seating location, need for overhead bin, presence at the gate/readiness to board the AI buzzes certain groups into a higher priority lane.
- burundi_coffee 6y agoPreferably those groups with the highest "engagement" with the airline company.
- Mountain_Skies 6y agoThere must be some reasons why no one does dual entrance boarding. Obviously there would be an additional cost for jetways that would work in that configuration. That might be why the only time I've seen boarding at both ends of a commercial flight was an Ethiopian Airlines flight in Tanzania with a stair car for each door. Even with everyone needing to climb up stairs, the boarding process using both doors was pretty quick.
- davidrupp 6y agoRyanair used front/rear boarding when I was flying with them out of Dublin in 2017 - 2018.
- JoeMalt 6y agoIt seems to be pretty common among European low-cost carriers. Not sure why it hasn’t taken off in the US, perhaps some reluctance to make passengers walk on the tarmac?
- enlightens 6y agoMy only experience with dual boarding was also in Tanzania with stair cars, though with KLM.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- panda88888 6y agoAs another fellow HNer mentioned, two door boarding seems to be more common on Asian carriers. When I flew with Eva Air, there were two doors open on the aircraft for boarding. Although the front one is for Business class only.
- maxerickson 6y agoI don't fly a lot but I've always had good success with the the method that involves not stowing a bag overhead, and I just sit and wait until the line goes away. No hassle, etc.