17 ms·

In-car touchscreens are dangerous

249 points by sharkweek 6y ago

autoditype 6y ago
Have insurers determined if touchscreens result in more accidents? And have premiums accounted for this? I was told decades ago that insurance companies analyze vehicle make, models, and colors for accidents, and adjust the premiums (heard red cars were often at fault and white cars were often hit because they were missed by other drivers while merging lanes, not sure if that data is still true in 2021). Surely they also include these features into their analysis
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > Have insurers determined if touchscreens result in more accidents? And have premiums accounted for this? Is it possible to buy a car without one anymore?
  - Der_Einzige 6y ago
    Unfortunately, it's extremely possible. Up until recently, Lexus didn't have a touch-screen in its lineup. Android Auto / Apple Carplay forced their hand on bringing them back.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      How did things like navigation work before touchscreens? There can't have been a QWERTY keyboard on the dashboard?
      - lupire 6y ago
        Joystick control for virtual keyboard.
      - MauranKilom 6y ago
        You turn a knob to scroll through the alphabet and press the knob to enter the currently selected character.
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        Doesn't sound like great UX! Must take forever to type an address in.
        guessbest 6y ago
        It has the same functionality as putting a name in a game using a SNES controller.
        jodrellblank 6y ago
        Nobody complained when Apple did that with the Macbook Wheel a few years ago: https://www.theonion.com/apple-introduces-revolutionary-new-laptop-with-no-keybo-1819594761 https://www.theonion.com/apple-introduces-revolutionary-new-...
        notriddle 6y ago
        That doesn't seem better than a touchscreen.
      - ghaff 6y ago
        Is that a serious question? Vehicles simply didn't have have navigation prior to separate GPSs like Garmin. Once they were built into cars, they used the same touchscreen interfaces. The entertainment "system" (radio/CD) simply used a few buttons. The "navigation system" was a map that, if you were by yourself, was something you tried to follow without taking your eyes off the road too much
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        > Is that a serious question? Yes? > Vehicles simply didn't have have navigation prior to separate GPSs like Garmin. But we're not talking pre-Garmin here - the person I was replying to said recent Lexus didn't have them. They must have had navigation in a recent Lexus surely? So how did you input an address?
        Der_Einzige 6y ago
        A joystick or touchpad! https://i.pinimg.com/originals/47/14/b2/4714b2032ba746a2fce7e8c41031d12d.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/47/14/b2/4714b2032ba746a2fce7... https://images.cars.com/cldstatic/wp-content/uploads/img-1424193245-1482253204115.jpg https://images.cars.com/cldstatic/wp-content/uploads/img-142... also lol at people downvoting me who don't drive a Lexus and think I'm wrong about my claim that they don't use touch screens. Maybe they had one model that kept a touch screen but the RX series didn't get one until I believe 2020. It had 4 years of not having one at least. That's by far their most popular car. I don't remember the ES or GX that I test drove having them either until recently...
        ghaff 6y ago
        I guess I'm surprised that such things existed. I never saw one, but then I still don't have a built-in touchscreen system. I just use a phone. I guess I assumed that any built-in nav touch screen was controlled by touch but maybe not.
      - mintone 6y ago
        There is a delightfully awful feature in audis where you can draw letters on a sort of touchpad and it works out what they are correctly a good 10% of the time. It's a cool tech I guess, but a really quite awful idea for cars, both in terms of UX and keeping concentration on the road.
        bronxasaur 6y ago
        My car has this. It's actually pretty well-done, and I can do it while keeping a hand on the wheel and eyes on the road. Of course, I could also stare at the screen and use the knob to rotate through a keyboard, or use my voice. It's all about the options!
      - guessbest 6y ago
        You'd input a street address on something that looked like a SNES game controller. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw6EQXiLPkY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw6EQXiLPkY
      - Svip 6y ago
        Something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro_Gyrocator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro_Gyrocator
        guessbest 6y ago
        Haha, I saw that, too before I posted the youtube link to a Mercedes-Benz GPS from 1999 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw6EQXiLPkY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw6EQXiLPkY People forget what older car and handheld units used to look like and how to input them, but then again, this was over 2 decades ago.
      - AshamedCaptain 6y ago
        Voice interface (of the "pull the lever to speak" variety), physical buttons (e.g. T9) , physical dials (e.g. rotate to select key then press to confirm), drawing letters on a touchpad (seen it), etc.
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        These all sound terrible. I'd hate to go back to that.
        AshamedCaptain 6y ago
        Except for the dial (some Mercedes had it) and voice, I've tested the rest and found them highly convenient, actually.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        cgriswald 6y ago
        The voice entry on my MB can be frustrating sometimes, mostly when telling it street names, but the entry knob it has is easy to use. It dials clockwise and counterclockwise, works as a four way joystick, and presses down as a button.
    - jimbob45 6y ago
      Why is that unfortunate? Being able to run your car by feel alone is very fortunate.
      - ghaff 6y ago
        There are certain systems that probably have to be a combination of touchscreen and voice. What's happened though is that a bunch of parallel knobs and buttons have been removed.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - aeternum 6y ago
      This is not true, the navigation option for Lexus has included a touchscreen for decades.
      - ObsoleteNerd 6y ago
        My 2019 IS300 doesn’t have a touch screen at all. It has a small wide-screen display on top of the dash but it’s controlled by a physical controller in the centre console like a mouse, and it’s only for GPS and audio. Same goes for all IS models until this year when they got CarPlay/etc.
    - ObsoleteNerd 6y ago
      Not sure why you’re being downvoted. I have a new (1yr old) Lexus and you’re correct, no touch screen.
      - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
        What did you buy? I'm suddenly interested...
        ObsoleteNerd 6y ago
        IS300. I’ve had some older ISes and always been a fan so this was a dream purchase for me.
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        Wow the website says they're still running a CD player. I'm not sure that's really realistic today for most people and most consumers wouldn't accept that for entertainment.
        Der_Einzige 6y ago
        Lexus makes better cars than anyone else from a reliability standpoint. That's all that most people need to buy them...
- swiley 6y ago
  They should handle it like radios: let the user just yank the whole thing out and leave CAN/power/speaker connectors. Then reasonable organizations can build the controls.
  - olyjohn 6y ago
    I miss standard DIN sizes. :(
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
renewiltord 6y ago
Biggest regret I have with my car is that it doesn't have a massive touchscreen. It's for me to observe and my passenger to operate.
NathanielK 6y ago
It won't be a fad if it's cheaper to add a touch screen than adding mechanical switch gear to cars. I agree with the article though, it can be dangerous. Unless there are legal consequences, I don't see touch screens going away. In Germany, a driver got in trouble for adjusting his wiper speed on the touch screen, then drove off the road from the distraction,[1] but I'm not aware of other rulings. > "The touch screen built into the Tesla brand vehicle is an electronic device [...] which the driver of the vehicle is only permitted to operate under the conditions of this regulation without it being a matter of what purpose the driver is pursuing with the operation. > The setting of the functions necessary for the operation of the motor vehicle via touchscreen (here: setting the wiping interval of the windshield wiper) is therefore only permitted if this is done with only a brief glance at the screen that is adapted to the road, traffic, visibility and weather conditions at the same time corresponding averted view of the traffic is connected ". [1] https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.auto-motor-und-sport.de%2Ftech-zukunft%2Ftesla-unfall-gerichtsurteil-gegen-touchscreenbedienung-fuer-scheibenwischer%2F https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=h...
- ghaff 6y ago
  It's idiocy not to have basic car and environmental functions accessible via easy to access physical controls. I'm less concerned about infotainment so long as that's all in the optional category--though, ideally, voice controls would be fairly useful.
  - duskwuff 6y ago
    As far as infotainment is concerned, there's no excuse for not having a physical volume control. Everything else (channels, track/source selection, equalizer, etc) is potentially fine to have on a touchscreen, but volume is always relevant, and making it difficult to change could pose a safety risk (e.g. if the audio has become distracting to the driver and they want to turn it down).
Der_Einzige 6y ago
I dunno, I own a 2017 Lexus RX 450h which does not have a touch-screen but instead has a joystick type system which I can only imagine was designed to make it easier to use while driving. Not that you'd use it for much when you're driving anyway though, since most functionality is locked unless you're parked. I'd prefer a touch screen because the only time I want to use it is for plugging in destination names which is currently very slow with the joystick. In my case, I feel that a touch screen would not increase my risk of being hurt. I think the author is right that using touch-screens while driving is extremely distracting, but I think the point of (many) of them is to be used when you're not driving. Going onto the whole idea of "assault of information", I find as a driver that I would ideally never take my eyes off the road except to look at mirrors. This is why I cannot believe that some cars have absurdly complicated dashboards and dashboard/infotainment combinations (e.g. Audi). I tell people that my cars HUD is one of the best safety features ever made for this reason - because I keep my eyes on the road while getting info about my speed, gas usage, driving instructions. I don't ever look at the infotainment or dashboard when driving because of this HUD. I'm extremely excited to see the new AR HUDs coming from the Germans and I'm increasingly frustrated that Tesla won't make HUDs and that aftermarket options for them suck. It seems that few have similar driving experiences to myself which honestly shocks me.
- fatnoah 6y ago
  >I tell people that my cars HUD is one of the best safety features ever made for this reason Interesting, I have the opposite take. I feel like the HUD in my car offers me a constant flow of information, but it's always in my field of view and is a distraction as a result of it. With information restricted to my instrument cluster, it's not in the way and easy to ignore. Maybe it's because I live in a more urban area, but I don't need to constantly be aware of my speed because it's mostly limited by traffic and road geometry.
- derekp7 6y ago
  If the HUD covers part of the view of the road, I don't like it. If it covers part of the view of the hood (i.e., it is lower), then is it really different then having the dash designed so it sits higher up and you don't see your hood?
mey 6y ago
Every-time this comes up, I feel compelled to bring up Mazda's stance since at least 2019 to purge touch screens from their cars. https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-purging-touchscreens-from-its-vehicles https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur... Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20200335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20200335
- not_knuth 6y ago
  Great thread. Looks like HN has decently chewed on this topic before. Thanks for sharing!
- hyperrail 6y ago
  According to Consumer Reports, Mazda's non-touch-screen infotainment controls are actually not good at all: * https://www.consumerreports.org/infotainment-systems/how-to-solve-problems-with-your-infotainment-system/ https://www.consumerreports.org/infotainment-systems/how-to-... > Despite selling some vehicles with high ratings in other categories, Audi, Honda, Infiniti, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz, Mini, Subaru, and Toyota all joined Lexus at the bottom of our satisfaction ratings when it came to ease of use for in-car electronics. * https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/mazda/3/2021/road-test/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/mazda/3/2021/road-test/ (requires subscription): > The infotainment screen mounted in the center of the dash isn’t a touch screen; users must adjust audio and infotainment features using steering wheel controls or the rotary controller and buttons mounted between the front seats. Unfortunately, some steering wheel controls are hard to see and difficult to use because they have silver text on a silver background. The rotary knob and buttons in the center console are also challenging to use since many of the buttons are difficult to see at a glance, and the lack of an easy-to-decipher menu structure forces drivers to spend too long looking at the controls instead of the road. As can be seen from your first link, the main control method is a jog-wheel knob at your knee next to the gear shift lever, mounted facing up, so you turn it left and right to select things and push in to "click"/confirm. CR says that with this control system, and the menu hierarchies that Mazda's UI makes you go through, you end up more distracted than with the better touch-screen systems they review.
  - 6y ago
Fordec 6y ago
Touchscreens will be on the way out. But what I do expect what will come down the line that hasn't been done yet is custom shaped screens embedded within analog controls. Since notches in phone screens started becoming a thing, the ability to manufacture non-rectangular shaped screens has an array of so far unexplored options for dynamic information communication without foregoing the tactile user experience.
- zepto 6y ago
  > I do expect what will come down the line that hasn't been done yet is custom shaped screens embedded within analog controls The Bugatti Divo has this already.
sebastien_b 6y ago
Someone once made an insightful comment about touchscreens: that it's ironic that they're the type of device you can't operate by touch.
roland35 6y ago
I agree. I am glad my 2018 Volt has nice big buttons right below the screen, both for radio controls and climate controls. It is also nice to have a few unique controls on the steering wheel, as opposed to the new trend I'm seeing where there are thumb rollers and selectors on the wheel. The only thing it is missing is a dedicated air conditioning button! I guess the car thinks it is smart enough to turn ac on if the temperature setting is low.
Agingcoder 6y ago
Is it me or is the title difficult to parse? (multiple negatives ?)
- TechBro8615 6y ago
  Not just you; I thought the same.
  - dpoochieni 6y ago
    Out of curiosity, do you guys only speak English?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
einpoklum 6y ago
Suggestion to author: Consider also being done with not avoiding double negatives. If you don't fail to see what I mean.
dominotw 6y ago
>Pretty much every study of in-car touchscreens' effects on drivers reaches the same conclusion: They're a serious distraction. I think serious flaw in these studies is that B case is users without distracting displays in the cars. But B case is people using their phone to pick the next podcast or change the album. To me google car is less dangerous because i am not using my phone to look for traffic patterns, change music ect.
- contravariant 6y ago
  Well if your hypothesis is that it's a problem then you shouldn't be comparing it against a known problem. You will either end up showing it's not as problematic, which doesn't say much; or you end up with a negative result, meaning you can't really tell either way. Besides this isn't an either/or problem, we should aim to remove all forms of distraction, not go for the least bad choice. Driving safely takes precedence over avoiding traffic or enjoying music.
- Daho0n 6y ago
  Here they include both: https://www.iamroadsmart.com/campaign-pages/end-customer-campaigns/infotainment https://www.iamroadsmart.com/campaign-pages/end-customer-cam...
corytheboyd 6y ago
I just wish there was at least some effort/mandate to make the UIs the same. Every touch interface I have used is different, which is second in terribleness only to the horrible latency. This is such a stupid problem to have in a car.
- bichiliad 6y ago
  I think uniformness in interface will probably make it a lot harder for cars to be flexible to the needs of a driver. The fact that the interface is different from car to car is probably only a problem if you jump around between cars a lot, but the fact that you have to learn an interface that you have to look at to use, while at the same time operating a vehicle, is probably the main cause of frustration for most people. Plus, there's some argument to be made about regulations hurting innovation. I'm not usually the type of person to make those arguments, but this seems like one of those cases where the ability to actually make a good, dynamic interface might never happen.
  - Brian_K_White 6y ago
    It's possible to have all kinds of differences while also having a standard framework or paradigm. One just hasn't gelled yet. The first cars didn't all agree on even the most basic controls like steering, braking, accellerating. Ony after some time did the currently universal framework establish. The same thing could happen to car computer interfaces. Some sort of paradigm evolves for some common elements that all car consoles have, and that framework of recognizable bits is good enough. The cars would all still be different as they all are now. I can easily switch from my manual transmission 4wd 4runner to my gf's prius, and I only joke about being baffled by the pushbutton ignition, missing clutch pedal, and the ridiculous shift lever on the dash for comic effect. The important paradigms of operating different vehicles are either the same or are recognizable by some same cues, even though I have two shifting levers and 3 pedals and they all do direct physical things, and she only has 2 pedals and 1 lever and they're all just fancy light switches, and some cars have cruise control and backup cameras and rear wipers and other cars don't even have those things in any form let along a different form. On the other hand, she can't drive my 4runner at all. So, maybe that's a point against my own argument. That there are already differences even in the basic controls that make it difficult or impossible for someone used to one vehicle to operate some others, long before any car computers came along, and so, who cares if the car computers are standardized or not?
alkonaut 6y ago
Just don’t use ”infotainment” when driving. Changing the lights and wipers or heating the windows isn’t infotainment and should be dedicated buttons you can find without taking your eyes of the road. But changing the car setup, choosing a navigation destination or changing playlists? Excellent on touchscreens. Almost impossible to even make well any other way. So don’t do that while driving! That touchscreen has 3 uses 1) as a read only screen for the driver when driving 2) as an interactive screen for the driver when parked 3) as an interactive screen for the passenger. What’s important is to not conflate entertainment and setup on one hand and driving on the other. Those are completely different use cases and need completely different interfaces. If a car brand puts lights or wiper controls on the touchscreen please don’t call it “infotainment”. It’s like putting the steering wheel on the touch screen. It’s driving controls. They don’t belong there.
- swiley 6y ago
  >Changing the lights and wipers or heating the windows isn’t infotainment and should be dedicated buttons you can find without taking your eyes of the road. It should be but isn't unfortunately. Also the radio is important, in the US at least driving for hours at a time is pretty normal and you need any tool you can get to keep yourself awake, that includes things like the radio. >Excellent on touchscreens. IMO the only thing "Excellent" on touchscreens is scrolling and that's only multi-touch screens which many cars don't have (and you absolutely shouldn't be scrolling and driving, heck have some beer instead of doing that.)
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- Daho0n 6y ago
  Like Porsche with touchscreen control of air vents..
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - 6y ago
Fomite 6y ago
When I bought my VW GTI, there was one model above the base, the "Wolfsberg Edition", that didn't have a screen. The controls were straightforward and tactile. I checked recently and that option's gone, which made me a little sad as I wrestled with having to restart CarPlay in our other vehicle to get it to talk to my iPhone.
yawaworht1978 6y ago
Yes it is dangerous, they are at times unresponsive, visibility can be obscured depending on daylight. Travelling at 60mph you move 45 meters or yards in one second. Would you run full steam ahead 45 yards in a tight jungle? I will give it a pass.
orev 6y ago
I agree in general, however the rise of touch screens has also coincided with a dramatic increase in other safety features, like lane keeping assist, auto braking capability, and even android auto/iOS carplay (which at least allow attention to be focused on the dash instead of down on the phone). I would not be surprised if these are somewhat mitigating the distraction issues by actually allowing distraction to have less risk. I’m not saying it’s perfect or even desirable, but it is at least there. Also, I think a contributing factor to touch screen problems are the absolutely terrible GUIs the auto manufacturers come up with, and their insistence on using the cheapest (slowest) CPU they can find just to save $2 on the build. If these screens were much faster to respond, you wouldn’t have to be distracted for multiple seconds just waiting for the command to have an effect.
- clairity 6y ago
  those “safety” features can be dangerous in a few ways, like generally deskilling drivers over time, thereby increasing accident rates and severity of accidents. i’ve personally had auto-braking (on a rental car) almost cause an accident, which i had to counteract to avoid.
- Daho0n 6y ago
  Research shows that even using voice control of Apple carplay is way worse than driving at the legal blood alcohol level and also worse than cannabis. So while I agree that it is bad with the often slow CPUs and bad UI (like Tesla's) it isn't much help if the fix still include anything but old knobs and dials. Edit: Example of research.. https://www.iamroadsmart.com/campaign-pages/end-customer-campaigns/infotainment https://www.iamroadsmart.com/campaign-pages/end-customer-cam...
alacombe 6y ago
Any kind of LCD screen is a security hazard at night. Even black are lit enough to cause distraction and prevent getting used to the dark.
- nabla9 6y ago
  Blue LCD's and LED's are both security risk and UI failure. BMW does it right. Their orange red is perfect for the dark.
  - alacombe 6y ago
    All manufacturer did it right 15 years ago, thus why I won't buy any vehicle made after 2010'ish.
- tenebrisalietum 6y ago
  You're right--mine has an option to turn off the screen completely. It would be nice if the systems detected ambient light automatically and went into a redshift mode when it is dark.
  - alacombe 6y ago
    Please no, NO MORE STUPID SENSORS.
myko 6y ago
This is silly when I think of the touch screen in my Model S. The "Infotainment" us 100% useful for the 45 minute charging sessions I occasionally endure. And while driving it isn't used.
- Godel_unicode 6y ago
  Just so you're aware, your experience does not appear to generalize. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/01/tesla-driver-killed-autopilot-self-driving-car-harry-potter https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/01/tesla-dri...
  - myko 6y ago
    "The Florida highway patrol told Reuters that there was a portable DVD player in the vehicle." What does this have to do with the bits in the car?
    - Godel_unicode 6y ago
      There exist a great many people without the self-control espoused in your comment.
      - myko 6y ago
        I wasn't trying to brag about my self control. I'm just pointing out that the "infotainment console" didn't seem to contribute to this person bringing a DVD player into their car and watching a movie on it. The infotainment console wasn't used for that and couldn't be unless it was modified. That stuff only works in park.
- Daho0n 6y ago
  Do you park to change the wipers if it starts to rain? Someone in Germany crashed while using the touchscreen in his Tesla when it started to rain and was fined as using it while driving is illegal.
ogre_codes 6y ago
Just bought a Tesla so kind of new to the whole touchscreen thing. The big thing I noticed is the bulk of what you need to use while driving is either on the steering column or exceedingly easy to get to on the touch screen. Wipers, cruise settings, basic music controls, are all right there. Climate control is right on the bottom and easily adjustable. The thing which does bother me is it can be a rabbit-hole getting at some of the other features. If you want to enable seat heating on the back seats? It’s about 3 clicks in which is bad. Since the car has pretty damned good drivers assist technology it’s very easy to let the computer do the driving while you poke at the screen. Which... is not good. I love the autopilot. But it is very easy to lean on when you shouldn’t.
- lostmsu 6y ago
  The comment just above yours tells less rosy story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26280823 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26280823
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    Shrug I’ve owned the car for 2 weeks and it’s rained nearly every day. Turning the wipers on has been a non-issue. If they don’t automatically turn on, tap the stalk (not unlike on any other car) and they are on for 4-5 seconds and the control is up on your screen. Tap the speed you want. But auto works so well its something that has never bothered me. Why this guy hit a tree or whatever is beyond me, I’m not a Tesla expert by any means, but it seems to me like tapping the stalk or saying “Wiper on” doesn’t require looking away from the window..
- kinghajj 6y ago
  > If you want to enable seat heating on the back seats? It’s about 3 clicks in which is bad. IIRC, you can use voice commands for that particular case. "Turn on the right rear seat heater." There's definitely other use cases that still aren't covered by voice commands, at least the last time I tried. I can't exactly recall what those cases are, though. I should check the latest user manual, in case there's an exhaustive list of all supported voice commands...
Klonoar 6y ago
I find CarPlay + the BMW dial to be a useful level. Trying to do anything touch related is a nightmare while driving, so it's still tactile, and CarPlay itself is pretty well optimized for viewing things at a glance and not overwhelming you with things to decipher. I legitimately do not think that that touch screens and infotainment like this should be in cars, but I think the closer we get to self-driving cars, the more you're going to see this stuff pushed as it fits that model.
- Daho0n 6y ago
  Voice controlled Apple carplay much worse a distraction than driving at the legal alcohol limit or after using cannabis: https://www.iamroadsmart.com/campaign-pages/end-customer-campaigns/infotainment https://www.iamroadsmart.com/campaign-pages/end-customer-cam...
nom 6y ago
One big reason for touchscreens that is often overlooked is the fact that the traditional automobile industry moves slow. Very slow. Even software running all the basic functions has to be finalized like a year before production and knobs and buttons have to be designed and frozen much much earlier. With a touchscreen you have a lot more freedom and you can even ship upgrades afterwards that adds more features or changes the behavior.
swiley 6y ago
I think plenty of people here have been done with smart/touch crap for years now. It was kind of neat when the technology was new and the premium option but when the choice of a decent UI went away it really started to suck.
soheil 6y ago
The latest S-Class pretty much just has a giant touch screen in the center, I'm not so sure if I buy the just a fad argument [0]. If you don't know much about cars, S-Class is the standard other car manufacturers aspire to when it comes to tech, FSD notwithstanding. I don't want your down votes believe me I don't like them either, but the truth is touchscreens are cheaper than having a million buttons that break all the time, you can push a software update to fix bugs or heck even upgrade the entire UI if you wanted to. If you're a car manufacture why would you ever look back? [0] https://www.google.com/search?q=2021+s+class+interior https://www.google.com/search?q=2021+s+class+interior
oblib 6y ago
I think they're an awful addition to driver controls. You simply cannot be distracted while driving for more than a few seconds before you're endangering yourself and others and there is no good place to put them that doesn't take your eyes off the road. When I use a mapping app for driving I use one I can place on the dashboard and quickly glance at it but I don't fiddle with it. Watching videos of those pile ups in Texas this month was just stunning. Everyone who rear ended the car in front of them was an idiot. There is no excuse for driving faster than you can react to the car in front of you coming to a full stop. None at all. I grew up around and working with body men who repaired crashed car and the people who crashed them, custom and race car builders, and race car drivers, and some of those drivers broke world speed records, and some died racing. I also designed and built "zero effort" driving systems for C4-C5 quadriplegics so they could drive while sitting in their wheelchairs. Most of them couldn't pick up a sandwich but they could safely drive the vehicles we built for them. Of all the crazy things people have asked me to do to their car, none of it would be more dangerous than a touchscreen for driver controls, and especially one with entertainment features. That's the ultimate stupid feature. And I have been asked to do a shit ton of crazy things to cars people drive. Evel Kenival wanted me to build a show car that "exploded the body off", and I did. And as far as know, no one was ever injured by it. If he'd asked me to build him a car that he could change the radio station with a touchscreen TV in the center console while driving down the highway I'd have told him "No. I won't do that". What scares me is people buy and use this stuff now while barreling down the hwy at 70+mph.
- dragosmocrii 6y ago
  Are you referring to the pileup caused by the black ice on the overpass? At those Texan speeds, managing to stop a sixteen wheeler on ice would be a miracle. Edit: removed part that was saying ABS is useless on ice.
  - kaonwarb 6y ago
    Can you explain how you would be better off without ABS than with it on ice? Ice is precisely the type of situation ABS is built for.
viraptor 6y ago
I liked the "accidental solution" in older Prius (2007 I think?). It had a touch screen for address input/map and some setup. But it was so far away you actually had to lean in to reach it. You would never do that while driving so you wouldn't play with it - the inconvenience was a good thing. Putting lots of controls on the steering wheel with tactile differences for each helped too.
surround 6y ago
The low-end 2019 Nissan Versa has hand crank windows, manual locks, manual transmission... yet still has a touch screen, because state law requires a back-up camera.
Sodman 6y ago
One of the biggest problems I have with these touchscreens is that, as they're generally included to reduce unit cost for the car manufacturer, they also usually have woefully underpowered hardware backing them. When I glance at my display after an audio cue and there's a one-button option to change to a faster route thanks to real time traffic data, there's an enormous difference between quickly tapping that button and having it work as expected, vs me forcefully jabbing the screen repeatedly (while staring at it) because the processor is so overwhelmed running the maps app that the display polling isn't registering my finger. You can argue that the touchscreen is a danger either way, but one of these two scenarios is much worse than the other.
unknown2374 6y ago
I was in the market for a car last year, and wanted to specifically buy a car from $BRAND. To my dismay, all their 2020 models were replaced with touchscreens, after many years of being behind on replacing their older hardware controlled infotainment. I ended up buying a second hand lease return model from 2018 instead. I understand why they don't provide that as an optional upgrade (increased manufacturing and maintenance costs for two different systems), but I really wish they did.
jrochkind1 6y ago
Is it even possible to get a new car without a touch screen? I hate it.
Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL 6y ago
"clearly you're not a fan of touchscreens" "no, I hate the things, I mean in a fast car, actually they shouldn't be allowed in a fast car, they really shouldn't" legendary f1/car designer Gordon Murray, approximately 30:05, but the complete video is gold : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4EIYQ6fkG4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4EIYQ6fkG4 anyone interested in cars, engineering or design (or a combination) should watch it. there's also a great podcast episode featuring him https://collectingcars.com/podcasts/ https://collectingcars.com/podcasts/ (episode 21). sorry since I don't have much to say about the article itself, wanted to share this though. I dislike almost everything about modern cars (touch is the least of my problems) ; usability, 'repairability', electronic assistance, cameras, trend towards SUVs (even if only for driving children to school), weight and size increase, technical gizmos, et cetera ... don't want to write that rant in full right now.
- andrepd 6y ago
  >electronic assistances and cameras That's a good thing, no? Plus safety improvements of course.
  - Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL 6y ago
    - even in fast cars you often can't turn off the esc (electronic stability control) - it might actually not allow you to make unusual maneuvers (handbrake turns, etc) ; this actually can trigger the automatic emergency hotline call (been a witness) - it beeps at you for not wearing your seat belt (even while driving across an empty parking lot going 10 mph, or being on private property) - it has distance sensors (car beeps at you when driving out of a narrow parking garage constantly) - it warns you when it's cold, wet, you drive too fast ... - you can't set height of headlamps manually anymore (good for xeon which burn out everyone else's eyes even with default height settings...) - it might check whether you are in lane and warn when you go outside of it you might not agree, but all of that frustrates me (and does, whenever I have a rental), and makes me feel less in control and being treated like a child. -> add to all that : many electronic pieces are hard to replace, repair, debug if something isn't working ; not even talking about the full blown modern electronic gizmos where you now have to theoretically worry about your car getting (or not getting) software updates. Being in total control for me includes the ability to shoot yourself in the foot. I realize this isn't what your average 'a car is just a utility for me' driver wants, but what an enthusiast wants. to maybe come up with an imperfect analogy : average users use windows, power users use linux ; as long as I have linux as an option, I am happy. But the current development goes to a windows only world (in this metaphor), and it's rare to find cars that are exciting anymore.
ucm_edge 6y ago
What happened to voice commands in cars? I have a 2012 model that's about perfect from an ergonomics point. That is tactile buttons got first choice on positioning and every button is easily reachable from my driving position and there is an overall logic to the ordering of the buttons. Plus some of the buttons have little bumps on them similar to the home keys on a keyboard. The touchscreen got second choice so it's a little awkward to work, but that's fine because you're not supposed to fussing with it when in motion. The manufacturer tried to compensate for this by giving you voice controls to do things on the touch screen/nav system but you have to say the magic words just right so it's kind of a meh experience, as was a lot of that earlier voice controlled stuff. Went into look at the same model of car in 2020. Now two touch screens and just a few buttons, also no more voice commands. Tested a couple similar models that did have voice, but it feels like it has barely progressed, especially when compared to say Siri. We did't need all these dual touchscreens and such. We just needed the voice commands to get better. One insight I did gather was that my 2012's buttons were apparently costly to the manufacturer since they had to worry about the feel of the buttons, their layout had to be worked out, you have to make sure they hold up, it's moving pieces you need to quality control in your build, and of course if you ever want to redesign this cabin you have to do it all again for those faceplates. So touchscreens are cheaper. Which is probably why even though a lot of manufacturers probably know they could offer a better overall experience if they put more effort into the buttons, they go with the touch screen.
robomartin 6y ago
I have an admittedly simple minded opinion about this: If I can’t operate it without looking, it’s dangerous. Of course, there’s always a learning period. After that, with knobs and buttons, you don’t need to look (and sometimes very little). We have one vehicle with Apple Car Play. Once you understand the cognitive load required to operate certain functions it quickly becomes a scary thing to consider. A second simplistic perspective: If I can’t operate it without looking, while doing 120 at Willow Springs, it’s dangerous. Third perspective: I would not want touch screens on our Haas and Bridgeport CNC machines. It would be very dangerous. Why would I want one in a car. Touch screen UI’s are fragile and potentially dangerous because you don’t know what you are touching, the controls don’t maintain tactile state and it is too easy to click the wrong thing. I do understand the value for manufacturers. I have designed and worked on a range of knob-and-button and hybrid control panels, including one that went to space. Physical control panels are difficult and expensive to design and manufacture. They also require tons of testing because it’s a hard commitment. In sharp contrast to this, you can just throw a touch screen at something and worry about the UI later. Easily a 1000:1 development cost advantage for any non-trivial project.
gumby 6y ago
You don't have to have ADD to find these things hazardous. My 1980s Toyota heating controls had separate, independent switches for defrost vents, face vents, floor vents. My friend's US car had weird features like "bi-vent" with a slider switch. You had to look at it. I recently rented a Toyota and sometime since then they'd gone away from the simple controls that feel different and have some spacial analog. You can no longer manipulate any state beyond wipers, turn signal, and radio volume without looking away from the road.
MarkLowenstein 6y ago
Engineers have proven themselves unable to solve this. I will do so now: (1) have ONE pushable and turnable knob, somewhere - steering wheel, dash, doesn't matter (2) 25-30 one-word voice commands: "volume"/"louder"/"hotter"/"A-C"/"radio"/"front" Want to turn on the radio? Say "radio", push button. Louder? "louder", turn knob. Cooler? Say "A-C", push button, turn knob. "Fan", turn. Maybe some white noise feedback while turning it, to indicate whether you're in the low range or high range. Done!
- lhorie 6y ago
  God no. Have you actually tried using voice commands in a car? It just doesn't work. Also, I have a turnable+pushable knob in my car and it's frankly terrible because it's very easy to accidentally push when you're trying to turn. What is far easier to do is to make it so that turning a knob says via audio what action is selected. Then you press a different button to confirm.
  - CharlesW 6y ago
    > Have you actually tried using voice commands in a car? It just doesn't work. I have 3 years of experience with a CarPlay-enabled car, and Siri mostly just works as a voice interface. (But to your point, car makers' home-grown solutions are almost comically bad.)
    - MarkLowenstein 6y ago
      I'm hoping that by offering simple and intuitive words we could have success where most have failed (overloaded so that hotter, temperature, colder, heat, heater are all recognized, but all mean the same thing).
    - lhorie 6y ago
      > car makers' home-grown solutions are almost comically bad Exactly. Judging by how they are managing to make the worst possible decisions wrt touchscreen offerings, I'm not holding my breath for siri-like voice activation from car makers
karaterobot 6y ago
As a designer, I complain about touch screens from the perspective of their awful usability and ergonomics. When that fails, I take a different tack, and praise the tactility, precision, and overall fit-and-finish represented by high quality physical knobs and buttons. So far, automakers have not taken notice, and I am beginning to think they don't much care what I think. I hope the author of this article gets more traction by being outraged about the accessibility concerns. That might work. Good idea!
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  > So far, automakers have not taken notice, and I am beginning to think they don't much care what I think. On the one side, you have improved ergonomics and increased safety for the driver. But that needs to be weighed against: - Lower and more streamlined production costs, because if you stuff the UI into a touchscreen, all the car designers need to worry about is where to place a rectangular slab of glass; all UI design and adjustments can be made in parallel, likely by a contractor, and it has zero impact on manufacturing the car itself. - Better marketability, as you can present touchscreens as high tech (despite buying the cheapest possible ones that can render an image and occasionally register touch events). That other side benefits the vendor much more than user satisfaction.
  - unityByFreedom 6y ago
    Nothing wrong with wooing tech enthusiasts, but when that comes at the expense of safety we can take a second look. These screens may contribute to more accidents and if research eventually shows this no one will want one. I don't see how screens reduce cost since software has become an added cost, and tactile buttons have worked at low cost for decades.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      > I don't see how screens reduce cost since software has become an added cost, and tactile buttons have worked at low cost for decades. Half of the software is already done (those touchscreens don't get programmed from scratch, there's usually Windows or Android in them). You can outsource making it. But most importantly, this decouples car's UI from the rest of the design work. With physical knobs, you have to design, place and route wiring for panels, which interferes with designing and placing and routing of everything else. You have to mind the BOM and manufacturing - maybe getting the kind of button your designer wants, in a kind of panel they want, is prohibitively expensive? Making any change in controls arrangement involves altering physical elements of the car, which may need coordination with other teams designing other parts of the interior. Touchscreen gives you a nice separation from all of this. From the POV of designing the rest of the car, all you need is to fit a glass slab somewhere, and route wiring to that single place. Then, the UI people can do whatever they want. Change shape, arrangement and color of buttons 20 times a day. They can work on it while the physical desing of the car is already finalized. Hell, they can redesign the UI even after cars have already started to roll off the line. This kind of flexibility and decoupling saves money.
BluSyn 6y ago
I disagree. I get into modern cars and there are so many single-use buttons and dials that I need a 30-page manual to figure out what they do. Only to find out it's something I would use at most once-per-decade. Touchscreens make this simpler IF they are done correctly. Therein lies the problem; most car makers can't design a good UI if they tried, because they are just so incredibly bad at designing software. The only exception is Tesla. Everyone I know who has actually tried driving one immediately changes their opinion about the touchscreen, because in the Tesla is actually works and doesn't feel like it was designed in 1995. Other car makers need to get their shit together on software; stop outsourcing, and try actually giving a damn about your product for a change.
- sschueller 6y ago
  Tesla tries so hard to be KITT from knight rider but if KITTs turbo boost botton would have been buried in a touch screen menu he would have crashed before Michael would have been able to press it. Tactile buttons are important and give you the ability to operate them blind. This is not yet possible with touch screens.
- ohmaigad 6y ago
  Except Tesla puts wiper speed (a thing you actually use while driving) on Model 3 in the touchscreen. That is the dumbest thing ever. Touchscreens are fine, but the controls you use while driving should be buttons or via steering wheel controls + HUD.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- benburton 6y ago
  > most car makers can't design a good UI if they tried, because they are just so incredibly bad at designing software. Interface as a secondary concern to any other business function is historically a budget race-to-the-bottom. Just let Apple and Google design and implement everything with CarPlay/Android Automotive.
Brian_K_White 6y ago
I think it might be possible to make the touch screen safe by making it tactile. It can have possibly some permanently fixed borders and button areas of diiferent shapes or textures. It can also be made to vibrate such that you can feel when your finger is on some control spot on the screen. The touch firmware or higher level app software or maybe a touch library would have work a little differently to allow you to be touching the screen continuously as you feel around, and somehow register an intentional press some other way like pressure sensitivity, instead of just reacting instantly when you first touch anywhere, but this should be a solvable problem. It could provide haptic click feedback to presses too. There must be all kinds of ways to make the screen tactile like the old knobs and switches. And the point of bothering to make a touch screen you don't have to look at would be you still get software-defined-controls just like a regular visual app. You could make a set of hardware controls that phone apps could use as inputs, but you'd never think of everything that random apps might want. Maybe the right idea is both, a screen and some common hardware controls that the apps can use as well as the screen. Not just a set of undifferentiated border buttons that all feel the same and you have to read the screen to identify the buttons, but push-clickable rotating knobs, maybe with detents and end-stops. Play pause ff rw pickup/hangup controls. Mode selector: physical answer to a home screen, select between entertainment, nav, hvac... though I think main media volume and power, and hvac should have dedicated controls that don't change. You should always be able to shut the thing up in one step without navigating a menu, even a hardware mode selector. But now I've wandered into the weeds of details. The main point is, probably there is no getting rid of screens even if it would be better. And probably there is a way to make the screens ok instead of just wishing everyone would agree not to like them, by just making them tactile.
- Scene_Cast2 6y ago
  One way this was solved is the UI in airplane cockpits. For "Multi Function Displays" (or MFDs for short), they have a central screen, and buttons around the perimeter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-function_display https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-function_display I can't find any nicely linkable images, but you can search up "fighter jet mfd" for some examples.
crazygringo 6y ago
Obviously it seems intuitively plausible that touchscreens for drivers are dangerous. But it seems suspect to me that an author (such as this one) is arguing this based on hypothesizing, rather than on actual evidence, when cars with touchscreens have been around for years now. Surely there must be statistics showing or not showing correlations between touchscreens and accidents or deaths? Hell, for all I know they could counterintuitively keep us more alert with constant quick context-switching. So is there evidence they're dangerous? Are government agencies measuring it? Or are they not measuring it, which is a scandal? Are insurance companies measuring it? Are states not banning touchscreens because they're actually fine? Or are they not banning touchscreens out of incompetence or corruption? It's easy to hypothesize. But what's the evidence say?
- moduspol 6y ago
  Thank you for bringing some sanity to this thread. I think the vast majority of drivers are taking their eyes off the road to adjust media / climate controls even in cars with traditional tactile controls. It's a glance to see what the current setting is, or to make sure you hit the button you think you will, switching stations until you find the one you want, or more. That's not to say there are no drivers that exist that actually do operate these things without glancing off the road. I just think they're not nearly as common as these HN threads make them seem. And even cars with touchscreens often have voice controls, which allow for keeping your hands on the wheel in addition to your eyes on the road. Beats tactile controls even, for safety. We know the data's out there and we know there's a very vocal group that would pounce on any supportable conclusions. At some point, a lack of data is data. The Tesla Model 3 has been out since 2017, and despite thread after thread decrying the touchscreen, we've got no evidence of any measurable impact. Maybe it's worth burying this dead horse and moving on.
  - crazygringo 6y ago
    That's a great point. There's truly no difference in terms of distraction between changing the AC with a medium-sized button on a touchscreen, or changing it with a small physical button or medium-sized knob in the center console where it's always been anyways. If anything, the touchscreen is usually higher than where half the physical controls in the center console usually were anyways, and therefore keeping more of the road in your peripheral vision anyways. There's a huge difference between traditional physical controls used constantly during driving that we find and use purely by touch (e.g. blinkers) and the massive grid of badly labeled radio and climate controls in the center console that always required you to look anyways.
toss1 6y ago
Spot On The entire purpose of designing pilot/driver interface is to reduce pilot/driver workload and improve focus Touchscreens do the exact opposite in the UI of any vehicle, and are inherently dangerous 1) They provide zero haptic feedback. There is no way for the driver to know without focusing their eyes on the screen if they have even touched the intended control. Then there is no way for them to tell if they have activated it. Contrast with almost any kind of mechanical switch or knob - after using it just a few times, you can reach for it, find it and activate it, without even glancing and barely thinking, and know that you succeeded. 2) any activity REQUIRES that you take your eyes off the road and mirrors for an extended period of time, and focus on a text and menu system. Contrast this with a properly setup analog gauge cluster where a quick glance will show all is good or highlight any off condition. The dials are set so the normal condition puts the needle straight-up, so anything off (e.g., over/under temp, voltage, etc.) immediately shows up. A good digital cluster has either good mimicry of analog gauges or large clear numbers clearly indicating the correct status at a glance. I could plausibly see an interface with hardware switches and controls that activated controls on a map, as at least that can be learned to use by feel. The knobs used by BMW and Mazda to control their screens are better than touch screens, but not yet there. And infotainment on top of that? Absolutely insane I literally have zero insight into what these "designers" are thinking, if they are. Based on some replacement prices I've seen, it does not seem that touchscreens are cheaper than switches and knobs. Customers think it is pretty or cool? IDK Just because you can, does not mean you should. Yet they do.

249 points by sharkweek 6y ago

Have insurers determined if touchscreens result in more accidents? And have premiums accounted for this? I was told decades ago that insurance companies analyze vehicle make, models, and colors for accidents, and adjust the premiums (heard red cars were often at fault and white cars were often hit because they were missed by other drivers while merging lanes, not sure if that data is still true in 2021). Surely they also include these features into their analysis

chrisseaton 6y ago
> Have insurers determined if touchscreens result in more accidents? And have premiums accounted for this? Is it possible to buy a car without one anymore?
- Der_Einzige 6y ago
  Unfortunately, it's extremely possible. Up until recently, Lexus didn't have a touch-screen in its lineup. Android Auto / Apple Carplay forced their hand on bringing them back.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    How did things like navigation work before touchscreens? There can't have been a QWERTY keyboard on the dashboard?
    - lupire 6y ago
      Joystick control for virtual keyboard.
    - MauranKilom 6y ago
      You turn a knob to scroll through the alphabet and press the knob to enter the currently selected character.
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        Doesn't sound like great UX! Must take forever to type an address in.
        guessbest 6y ago
        It has the same functionality as putting a name in a game using a SNES controller.
        jodrellblank 6y ago
        Nobody complained when Apple did that with the Macbook Wheel a few years ago: https://www.theonion.com/apple-introduces-revolutionary-new-laptop-with-no-keybo-1819594761 https://www.theonion.com/apple-introduces-revolutionary-new-...
      - notriddle 6y ago
        That doesn't seem better than a touchscreen.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      Is that a serious question? Vehicles simply didn't have have navigation prior to separate GPSs like Garmin. Once they were built into cars, they used the same touchscreen interfaces. The entertainment "system" (radio/CD) simply used a few buttons. The "navigation system" was a map that, if you were by yourself, was something you tried to follow without taking your eyes off the road too much
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        > Is that a serious question? Yes? > Vehicles simply didn't have have navigation prior to separate GPSs like Garmin. But we're not talking pre-Garmin here - the person I was replying to said recent Lexus didn't have them. They must have had navigation in a recent Lexus surely? So how did you input an address?
        Der_Einzige 6y ago
        A joystick or touchpad! https://i.pinimg.com/originals/47/14/b2/4714b2032ba746a2fce7e8c41031d12d.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/47/14/b2/4714b2032ba746a2fce7... https://images.cars.com/cldstatic/wp-content/uploads/img-1424193245-1482253204115.jpg https://images.cars.com/cldstatic/wp-content/uploads/img-142... also lol at people downvoting me who don't drive a Lexus and think I'm wrong about my claim that they don't use touch screens. Maybe they had one model that kept a touch screen but the RX series didn't get one until I believe 2020. It had 4 years of not having one at least. That's by far their most popular car. I don't remember the ES or GX that I test drove having them either until recently...
        ghaff 6y ago
        I guess I'm surprised that such things existed. I never saw one, but then I still don't have a built-in touchscreen system. I just use a phone. I guess I assumed that any built-in nav touch screen was controlled by touch but maybe not.
    - mintone 6y ago
      There is a delightfully awful feature in audis where you can draw letters on a sort of touchpad and it works out what they are correctly a good 10% of the time. It's a cool tech I guess, but a really quite awful idea for cars, both in terms of UX and keeping concentration on the road.
      - bronxasaur 6y ago
        My car has this. It's actually pretty well-done, and I can do it while keeping a hand on the wheel and eyes on the road. Of course, I could also stare at the screen and use the knob to rotate through a keyboard, or use my voice. It's all about the options!
    - guessbest 6y ago
      You'd input a street address on something that looked like a SNES game controller. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw6EQXiLPkY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw6EQXiLPkY
    - Svip 6y ago
      Something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro_Gyrocator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro_Gyrocator
      - guessbest 6y ago
        Haha, I saw that, too before I posted the youtube link to a Mercedes-Benz GPS from 1999 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw6EQXiLPkY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw6EQXiLPkY People forget what older car and handheld units used to look like and how to input them, but then again, this was over 2 decades ago.
    - AshamedCaptain 6y ago
      Voice interface (of the "pull the lever to speak" variety), physical buttons (e.g. T9) , physical dials (e.g. rotate to select key then press to confirm), drawing letters on a touchpad (seen it), etc.
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        These all sound terrible. I'd hate to go back to that.
        AshamedCaptain 6y ago
        Except for the dial (some Mercedes had it) and voice, I've tested the rest and found them highly convenient, actually.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        cgriswald 6y ago
        The voice entry on my MB can be frustrating sometimes, mostly when telling it street names, but the entry knob it has is easy to use. It dials clockwise and counterclockwise, works as a four way joystick, and presses down as a button.
  - jimbob45 6y ago
    Why is that unfortunate? Being able to run your car by feel alone is very fortunate.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      There are certain systems that probably have to be a combination of touchscreen and voice. What's happened though is that a bunch of parallel knobs and buttons have been removed.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - aeternum 6y ago
    This is not true, the navigation option for Lexus has included a touchscreen for decades.
    - ObsoleteNerd 6y ago
      My 2019 IS300 doesn’t have a touch screen at all. It has a small wide-screen display on top of the dash but it’s controlled by a physical controller in the centre console like a mouse, and it’s only for GPS and audio. Same goes for all IS models until this year when they got CarPlay/etc.
  - ObsoleteNerd 6y ago
    Not sure why you’re being downvoted. I have a new (1yr old) Lexus and you’re correct, no touch screen.
    - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
      What did you buy? I'm suddenly interested...
      - ObsoleteNerd 6y ago
        IS300. I’ve had some older ISes and always been a fan so this was a dream purchase for me.
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        Wow the website says they're still running a CD player. I'm not sure that's really realistic today for most people and most consumers wouldn't accept that for entertainment.
        Der_Einzige 6y ago
        Lexus makes better cars than anyone else from a reliability standpoint. That's all that most people need to buy them...
swiley 6y ago
They should handle it like radios: let the user just yank the whole thing out and leave CAN/power/speaker connectors. Then reasonable organizations can build the controls.
- olyjohn 6y ago
  I miss standard DIN sizes. :(

deleted 6y ago

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renewiltord 6y ago

Biggest regret I have with my car is that it doesn't have a massive touchscreen. It's for me to observe and my passenger to operate.

NathanielK 6y ago

It won't be a fad if it's cheaper to add a touch screen than adding mechanical switch gear to cars. I agree with the article though, it can be dangerous. Unless there are legal consequences, I don't see touch screens going away. In Germany, a driver got in trouble for adjusting his wiper speed on the touch screen, then drove off the road from the distraction,[1] but I'm not aware of other rulings. > "The touch screen built into the Tesla brand vehicle is an electronic device [...] which the driver of the vehicle is only permitted to operate under the conditions of this regulation without it being a matter of what purpose the driver is pursuing with the operation. > The setting of the functions necessary for the operation of the motor vehicle via touchscreen (here: setting the wiping interval of the windshield wiper) is therefore only permitted if this is done with only a brief glance at the screen that is adapted to the road, traffic, visibility and weather conditions at the same time corresponding averted view of the traffic is connected ". [1] https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.auto-motor-und-sport.de%2Ftech-zukunft%2Ftesla-unfall-gerichtsurteil-gegen-touchscreenbedienung-fuer-scheibenwischer%2F https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=h...

ghaff 6y ago
It's idiocy not to have basic car and environmental functions accessible via easy to access physical controls. I'm less concerned about infotainment so long as that's all in the optional category--though, ideally, voice controls would be fairly useful.
- duskwuff 6y ago
  As far as infotainment is concerned, there's no excuse for not having a physical volume control. Everything else (channels, track/source selection, equalizer, etc) is potentially fine to have on a touchscreen, but volume is always relevant, and making it difficult to change could pose a safety risk (e.g. if the audio has become distracting to the driver and they want to turn it down).

Der_Einzige 6y ago

I dunno, I own a 2017 Lexus RX 450h which does not have a touch-screen but instead has a joystick type system which I can only imagine was designed to make it easier to use while driving. Not that you'd use it for much when you're driving anyway though, since most functionality is locked unless you're parked. I'd prefer a touch screen because the only time I want to use it is for plugging in destination names which is currently very slow with the joystick. In my case, I feel that a touch screen would not increase my risk of being hurt. I think the author is right that using touch-screens while driving is extremely distracting, but I think the point of (many) of them is to be used when you're not driving. Going onto the whole idea of "assault of information", I find as a driver that I would ideally never take my eyes off the road except to look at mirrors. This is why I cannot believe that some cars have absurdly complicated dashboards and dashboard/infotainment combinations (e.g. Audi). I tell people that my cars HUD is one of the best safety features ever made for this reason - because I keep my eyes on the road while getting info about my speed, gas usage, driving instructions. I don't ever look at the infotainment or dashboard when driving because of this HUD. I'm extremely excited to see the new AR HUDs coming from the Germans and I'm increasingly frustrated that Tesla won't make HUDs and that aftermarket options for them suck. It seems that few have similar driving experiences to myself which honestly shocks me.

fatnoah 6y ago
>I tell people that my cars HUD is one of the best safety features ever made for this reason Interesting, I have the opposite take. I feel like the HUD in my car offers me a constant flow of information, but it's always in my field of view and is a distraction as a result of it. With information restricted to my instrument cluster, it's not in the way and easy to ignore. Maybe it's because I live in a more urban area, but I don't need to constantly be aware of my speed because it's mostly limited by traffic and road geometry.
derekp7 6y ago
If the HUD covers part of the view of the road, I don't like it. If it covers part of the view of the hood (i.e., it is lower), then is it really different then having the dash designed so it sits higher up and you don't see your hood?

mey 6y ago

Every-time this comes up, I feel compelled to bring up Mazda's stance since at least 2019 to purge touch screens from their cars. https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-purging-touchscreens-from-its-vehicles https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur... Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20200335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20200335

not_knuth 6y ago
Great thread. Looks like HN has decently chewed on this topic before. Thanks for sharing!
hyperrail 6y ago
According to Consumer Reports, Mazda's non-touch-screen infotainment controls are actually not good at all: * https://www.consumerreports.org/infotainment-systems/how-to-solve-problems-with-your-infotainment-system/ https://www.consumerreports.org/infotainment-systems/how-to-... > Despite selling some vehicles with high ratings in other categories, Audi, Honda, Infiniti, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz, Mini, Subaru, and Toyota all joined Lexus at the bottom of our satisfaction ratings when it came to ease of use for in-car electronics. * https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/mazda/3/2021/road-test/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/mazda/3/2021/road-test/ (requires subscription): > The infotainment screen mounted in the center of the dash isn’t a touch screen; users must adjust audio and infotainment features using steering wheel controls or the rotary controller and buttons mounted between the front seats. Unfortunately, some steering wheel controls are hard to see and difficult to use because they have silver text on a silver background. The rotary knob and buttons in the center console are also challenging to use since many of the buttons are difficult to see at a glance, and the lack of an easy-to-decipher menu structure forces drivers to spend too long looking at the controls instead of the road. As can be seen from your first link, the main control method is a jog-wheel knob at your knee next to the gear shift lever, mounted facing up, so you turn it left and right to select things and push in to "click"/confirm. CR says that with this control system, and the menu hierarchies that Mazda's UI makes you go through, you end up more distracted than with the better touch-screen systems they review.
- 6y ago

Fordec 6y ago

Touchscreens will be on the way out. But what I do expect what will come down the line that hasn't been done yet is custom shaped screens embedded within analog controls. Since notches in phone screens started becoming a thing, the ability to manufacture non-rectangular shaped screens has an array of so far unexplored options for dynamic information communication without foregoing the tactile user experience.

zepto 6y ago
> I do expect what will come down the line that hasn't been done yet is custom shaped screens embedded within analog controls The Bugatti Divo has this already.

sebastien_b 6y ago

Someone once made an insightful comment about touchscreens: that it's ironic that they're the type of device you can't operate by touch.

roland35 6y ago

I agree. I am glad my 2018 Volt has nice big buttons right below the screen, both for radio controls and climate controls. It is also nice to have a few unique controls on the steering wheel, as opposed to the new trend I'm seeing where there are thumb rollers and selectors on the wheel. The only thing it is missing is a dedicated air conditioning button! I guess the car thinks it is smart enough to turn ac on if the temperature setting is low.

Agingcoder 6y ago

Is it me or is the title difficult to parse? (multiple negatives ?)

TechBro8615 6y ago
Not just you; I thought the same.
- dpoochieni 6y ago
  Out of curiosity, do you guys only speak English?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

einpoklum 6y ago

Suggestion to author: Consider also being done with not avoiding double negatives. If you don't fail to see what I mean.

dominotw 6y ago

>Pretty much every study of in-car touchscreens' effects on drivers reaches the same conclusion: They're a serious distraction. I think serious flaw in these studies is that B case is users without distracting displays in the cars. But B case is people using their phone to pick the next podcast or change the album. To me google car is less dangerous because i am not using my phone to look for traffic patterns, change music ect.

contravariant 6y ago
Well if your hypothesis is that it's a problem then you shouldn't be comparing it against a known problem. You will either end up showing it's not as problematic, which doesn't say much; or you end up with a negative result, meaning you can't really tell either way. Besides this isn't an either/or problem, we should aim to remove all forms of distraction, not go for the least bad choice. Driving safely takes precedence over avoiding traffic or enjoying music.
Daho0n 6y ago
Here they include both: https://www.iamroadsmart.com/campaign-pages/end-customer-campaigns/infotainment https://www.iamroadsmart.com/campaign-pages/end-customer-cam...

corytheboyd 6y ago

I just wish there was at least some effort/mandate to make the UIs the same. Every touch interface I have used is different, which is second in terribleness only to the horrible latency. This is such a stupid problem to have in a car.

bichiliad 6y ago
I think uniformness in interface will probably make it a lot harder for cars to be flexible to the needs of a driver. The fact that the interface is different from car to car is probably only a problem if you jump around between cars a lot, but the fact that you have to learn an interface that you have to look at to use, while at the same time operating a vehicle, is probably the main cause of frustration for most people. Plus, there's some argument to be made about regulations hurting innovation. I'm not usually the type of person to make those arguments, but this seems like one of those cases where the ability to actually make a good, dynamic interface might never happen.
- Brian_K_White 6y ago
  It's possible to have all kinds of differences while also having a standard framework or paradigm. One just hasn't gelled yet. The first cars didn't all agree on even the most basic controls like steering, braking, accellerating. Ony after some time did the currently universal framework establish. The same thing could happen to car computer interfaces. Some sort of paradigm evolves for some common elements that all car consoles have, and that framework of recognizable bits is good enough. The cars would all still be different as they all are now. I can easily switch from my manual transmission 4wd 4runner to my gf's prius, and I only joke about being baffled by the pushbutton ignition, missing clutch pedal, and the ridiculous shift lever on the dash for comic effect. The important paradigms of operating different vehicles are either the same or are recognizable by some same cues, even though I have two shifting levers and 3 pedals and they all do direct physical things, and she only has 2 pedals and 1 lever and they're all just fancy light switches, and some cars have cruise control and backup cameras and rear wipers and other cars don't even have those things in any form let along a different form. On the other hand, she can't drive my 4runner at all. So, maybe that's a point against my own argument. That there are already differences even in the basic controls that make it difficult or impossible for someone used to one vehicle to operate some others, long before any car computers came along, and so, who cares if the car computers are standardized or not?

alkonaut 6y ago

Just don’t use ”infotainment” when driving. Changing the lights and wipers or heating the windows isn’t infotainment and should be dedicated buttons you can find without taking your eyes of the road. But changing the car setup, choosing a navigation destination or changing playlists? Excellent on touchscreens. Almost impossible to even make well any other way. So don’t do that while driving! That touchscreen has 3 uses 1) as a read only screen for the driver when driving 2) as an interactive screen for the driver when parked 3) as an interactive screen for the passenger. What’s important is to not conflate entertainment and setup on one hand and driving on the other. Those are completely different use cases and need completely different interfaces. If a car brand puts lights or wiper controls on the touchscreen please don’t call it “infotainment”. It’s like putting the steering wheel on the touch screen. It’s driving controls. They don’t belong there.

swiley 6y ago
>Changing the lights and wipers or heating the windows isn’t infotainment and should be dedicated buttons you can find without taking your eyes of the road. It should be but isn't unfortunately. Also the radio is important, in the US at least driving for hours at a time is pretty normal and you need any tool you can get to keep yourself awake, that includes things like the radio. >Excellent on touchscreens. IMO the only thing "Excellent" on touchscreens is scrolling and that's only multi-touch screens which many cars don't have (and you absolutely shouldn't be scrolling and driving, heck have some beer instead of doing that.)
- deleted 6y ago
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Daho0n 6y ago
Like Porsche with touchscreen control of air vents..
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- 6y ago

Fomite 6y ago

When I bought my VW GTI, there was one model above the base, the "Wolfsberg Edition", that didn't have a screen. The controls were straightforward and tactile. I checked recently and that option's gone, which made me a little sad as I wrestled with having to restart CarPlay in our other vehicle to get it to talk to my iPhone.

yawaworht1978 6y ago

Yes it is dangerous, they are at times unresponsive, visibility can be obscured depending on daylight. Travelling at 60mph you move 45 meters or yards in one second. Would you run full steam ahead 45 yards in a tight jungle? I will give it a pass.

orev 6y ago

I agree in general, however the rise of touch screens has also coincided with a dramatic increase in other safety features, like lane keeping assist, auto braking capability, and even android auto/iOS carplay (which at least allow attention to be focused on the dash instead of down on the phone). I would not be surprised if these are somewhat mitigating the distraction issues by actually allowing distraction to have less risk. I’m not saying it’s perfect or even desirable, but it is at least there. Also, I think a contributing factor to touch screen problems are the absolutely terrible GUIs the auto manufacturers come up with, and their insistence on using the cheapest (slowest) CPU they can find just to save $2 on the build. If these screens were much faster to respond, you wouldn’t have to be distracted for multiple seconds just waiting for the command to have an effect.

clairity 6y ago
those “safety” features can be dangerous in a few ways, like generally deskilling drivers over time, thereby increasing accident rates and severity of accidents. i’ve personally had auto-braking (on a rental car) almost cause an accident, which i had to counteract to avoid.
Daho0n 6y ago
Research shows that even using voice control of Apple carplay is way worse than driving at the legal blood alcohol level and also worse than cannabis. So while I agree that it is bad with the often slow CPUs and bad UI (like Tesla's) it isn't much help if the fix still include anything but old knobs and dials. Edit: Example of research.. https://www.iamroadsmart.com/campaign-pages/end-customer-campaigns/infotainment https://www.iamroadsmart.com/campaign-pages/end-customer-cam...

alacombe 6y ago

Any kind of LCD screen is a security hazard at night. Even black are lit enough to cause distraction and prevent getting used to the dark.

nabla9 6y ago
Blue LCD's and LED's are both security risk and UI failure. BMW does it right. Their orange red is perfect for the dark.
- alacombe 6y ago
  All manufacturer did it right 15 years ago, thus why I won't buy any vehicle made after 2010'ish.
tenebrisalietum 6y ago
You're right--mine has an option to turn off the screen completely. It would be nice if the systems detected ambient light automatically and went into a redshift mode when it is dark.
- alacombe 6y ago
  Please no, NO MORE STUPID SENSORS.

myko 6y ago

This is silly when I think of the touch screen in my Model S. The "Infotainment" us 100% useful for the 45 minute charging sessions I occasionally endure. And while driving it isn't used.

Godel_unicode 6y ago
Just so you're aware, your experience does not appear to generalize. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/01/tesla-driver-killed-autopilot-self-driving-car-harry-potter https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/01/tesla-dri...
- myko 6y ago
  "The Florida highway patrol told Reuters that there was a portable DVD player in the vehicle." What does this have to do with the bits in the car?
  - Godel_unicode 6y ago
    There exist a great many people without the self-control espoused in your comment.
    - myko 6y ago
      I wasn't trying to brag about my self control. I'm just pointing out that the "infotainment console" didn't seem to contribute to this person bringing a DVD player into their car and watching a movie on it. The infotainment console wasn't used for that and couldn't be unless it was modified. That stuff only works in park.
Daho0n 6y ago
Do you park to change the wipers if it starts to rain? Someone in Germany crashed while using the touchscreen in his Tesla when it started to rain and was fined as using it while driving is illegal.

ogre_codes 6y ago

Just bought a Tesla so kind of new to the whole touchscreen thing. The big thing I noticed is the bulk of what you need to use while driving is either on the steering column or exceedingly easy to get to on the touch screen. Wipers, cruise settings, basic music controls, are all right there. Climate control is right on the bottom and easily adjustable. The thing which does bother me is it can be a rabbit-hole getting at some of the other features. If you want to enable seat heating on the back seats? It’s about 3 clicks in which is bad. Since the car has pretty damned good drivers assist technology it’s very easy to let the computer do the driving while you poke at the screen. Which... is not good. I love the autopilot. But it is very easy to lean on when you shouldn’t.

lostmsu 6y ago
The comment just above yours tells less rosy story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26280823 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26280823
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  Shrug I’ve owned the car for 2 weeks and it’s rained nearly every day. Turning the wipers on has been a non-issue. If they don’t automatically turn on, tap the stalk (not unlike on any other car) and they are on for 4-5 seconds and the control is up on your screen. Tap the speed you want. But auto works so well its something that has never bothered me. Why this guy hit a tree or whatever is beyond me, I’m not a Tesla expert by any means, but it seems to me like tapping the stalk or saying “Wiper on” doesn’t require looking away from the window..
kinghajj 6y ago
> If you want to enable seat heating on the back seats? It’s about 3 clicks in which is bad. IIRC, you can use voice commands for that particular case. "Turn on the right rear seat heater." There's definitely other use cases that still aren't covered by voice commands, at least the last time I tried. I can't exactly recall what those cases are, though. I should check the latest user manual, in case there's an exhaustive list of all supported voice commands...

Klonoar 6y ago

I find CarPlay + the BMW dial to be a useful level. Trying to do anything touch related is a nightmare while driving, so it's still tactile, and CarPlay itself is pretty well optimized for viewing things at a glance and not overwhelming you with things to decipher. I legitimately do not think that that touch screens and infotainment like this should be in cars, but I think the closer we get to self-driving cars, the more you're going to see this stuff pushed as it fits that model.

Daho0n 6y ago
Voice controlled Apple carplay much worse a distraction than driving at the legal alcohol limit or after using cannabis: https://www.iamroadsmart.com/campaign-pages/end-customer-campaigns/infotainment https://www.iamroadsmart.com/campaign-pages/end-customer-cam...

nom 6y ago

One big reason for touchscreens that is often overlooked is the fact that the traditional automobile industry moves slow. Very slow. Even software running all the basic functions has to be finalized like a year before production and knobs and buttons have to be designed and frozen much much earlier. With a touchscreen you have a lot more freedom and you can even ship upgrades afterwards that adds more features or changes the behavior.

swiley 6y ago

I think plenty of people here have been done with smart/touch crap for years now. It was kind of neat when the technology was new and the premium option but when the choice of a decent UI went away it really started to suck.

soheil 6y ago

The latest S-Class pretty much just has a giant touch screen in the center, I'm not so sure if I buy the just a fad argument [0]. If you don't know much about cars, S-Class is the standard other car manufacturers aspire to when it comes to tech, FSD notwithstanding. I don't want your down votes believe me I don't like them either, but the truth is touchscreens are cheaper than having a million buttons that break all the time, you can push a software update to fix bugs or heck even upgrade the entire UI if you wanted to. If you're a car manufacture why would you ever look back? [0] https://www.google.com/search?q=2021+s+class+interior https://www.google.com/search?q=2021+s+class+interior

oblib 6y ago

I think they're an awful addition to driver controls. You simply cannot be distracted while driving for more than a few seconds before you're endangering yourself and others and there is no good place to put them that doesn't take your eyes off the road. When I use a mapping app for driving I use one I can place on the dashboard and quickly glance at it but I don't fiddle with it. Watching videos of those pile ups in Texas this month was just stunning. Everyone who rear ended the car in front of them was an idiot. There is no excuse for driving faster than you can react to the car in front of you coming to a full stop. None at all. I grew up around and working with body men who repaired crashed car and the people who crashed them, custom and race car builders, and race car drivers, and some of those drivers broke world speed records, and some died racing. I also designed and built "zero effort" driving systems for C4-C5 quadriplegics so they could drive while sitting in their wheelchairs. Most of them couldn't pick up a sandwich but they could safely drive the vehicles we built for them. Of all the crazy things people have asked me to do to their car, none of it would be more dangerous than a touchscreen for driver controls, and especially one with entertainment features. That's the ultimate stupid feature. And I have been asked to do a shit ton of crazy things to cars people drive. Evel Kenival wanted me to build a show car that "exploded the body off", and I did. And as far as know, no one was ever injured by it. If he'd asked me to build him a car that he could change the radio station with a touchscreen TV in the center console while driving down the highway I'd have told him "No. I won't do that". What scares me is people buy and use this stuff now while barreling down the hwy at 70+mph.

dragosmocrii 6y ago
Are you referring to the pileup caused by the black ice on the overpass? At those Texan speeds, managing to stop a sixteen wheeler on ice would be a miracle. Edit: removed part that was saying ABS is useless on ice.
- kaonwarb 6y ago
  Can you explain how you would be better off without ABS than with it on ice? Ice is precisely the type of situation ABS is built for.

viraptor 6y ago

I liked the "accidental solution" in older Prius (2007 I think?). It had a touch screen for address input/map and some setup. But it was so far away you actually had to lean in to reach it. You would never do that while driving so you wouldn't play with it - the inconvenience was a good thing. Putting lots of controls on the steering wheel with tactile differences for each helped too.

surround 6y ago

The low-end 2019 Nissan Versa has hand crank windows, manual locks, manual transmission... yet still has a touch screen, because state law requires a back-up camera.

Sodman 6y ago

One of the biggest problems I have with these touchscreens is that, as they're generally included to reduce unit cost for the car manufacturer, they also usually have woefully underpowered hardware backing them. When I glance at my display after an audio cue and there's a one-button option to change to a faster route thanks to real time traffic data, there's an enormous difference between quickly tapping that button and having it work as expected, vs me forcefully jabbing the screen repeatedly (while staring at it) because the processor is so overwhelmed running the maps app that the display polling isn't registering my finger. You can argue that the touchscreen is a danger either way, but one of these two scenarios is much worse than the other.

unknown2374 6y ago

I was in the market for a car last year, and wanted to specifically buy a car from $BRAND. To my dismay, all their 2020 models were replaced with touchscreens, after many years of being behind on replacing their older hardware controlled infotainment. I ended up buying a second hand lease return model from 2018 instead. I understand why they don't provide that as an optional upgrade (increased manufacturing and maintenance costs for two different systems), but I really wish they did.

jrochkind1 6y ago

Is it even possible to get a new car without a touch screen? I hate it.

Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL 6y ago

"clearly you're not a fan of touchscreens" "no, I hate the things, I mean in a fast car, actually they shouldn't be allowed in a fast car, they really shouldn't" legendary f1/car designer Gordon Murray, approximately 30:05, but the complete video is gold : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4EIYQ6fkG4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4EIYQ6fkG4 anyone interested in cars, engineering or design (or a combination) should watch it. there's also a great podcast episode featuring him https://collectingcars.com/podcasts/ https://collectingcars.com/podcasts/ (episode 21). sorry since I don't have much to say about the article itself, wanted to share this though. I dislike almost everything about modern cars (touch is the least of my problems) ; usability, 'repairability', electronic assistance, cameras, trend towards SUVs (even if only for driving children to school), weight and size increase, technical gizmos, et cetera ... don't want to write that rant in full right now.

andrepd 6y ago
>electronic assistances and cameras That's a good thing, no? Plus safety improvements of course.
- Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL 6y ago
  - even in fast cars you often can't turn off the esc (electronic stability control) - it might actually not allow you to make unusual maneuvers (handbrake turns, etc) ; this actually can trigger the automatic emergency hotline call (been a witness) - it beeps at you for not wearing your seat belt (even while driving across an empty parking lot going 10 mph, or being on private property) - it has distance sensors (car beeps at you when driving out of a narrow parking garage constantly) - it warns you when it's cold, wet, you drive too fast ... - you can't set height of headlamps manually anymore (good for xeon which burn out everyone else's eyes even with default height settings...) - it might check whether you are in lane and warn when you go outside of it you might not agree, but all of that frustrates me (and does, whenever I have a rental), and makes me feel less in control and being treated like a child. -> add to all that : many electronic pieces are hard to replace, repair, debug if something isn't working ; not even talking about the full blown modern electronic gizmos where you now have to theoretically worry about your car getting (or not getting) software updates. Being in total control for me includes the ability to shoot yourself in the foot. I realize this isn't what your average 'a car is just a utility for me' driver wants, but what an enthusiast wants. to maybe come up with an imperfect analogy : average users use windows, power users use linux ; as long as I have linux as an option, I am happy. But the current development goes to a windows only world (in this metaphor), and it's rare to find cars that are exciting anymore.

ucm_edge 6y ago

What happened to voice commands in cars? I have a 2012 model that's about perfect from an ergonomics point. That is tactile buttons got first choice on positioning and every button is easily reachable from my driving position and there is an overall logic to the ordering of the buttons. Plus some of the buttons have little bumps on them similar to the home keys on a keyboard. The touchscreen got second choice so it's a little awkward to work, but that's fine because you're not supposed to fussing with it when in motion. The manufacturer tried to compensate for this by giving you voice controls to do things on the touch screen/nav system but you have to say the magic words just right so it's kind of a meh experience, as was a lot of that earlier voice controlled stuff. Went into look at the same model of car in 2020. Now two touch screens and just a few buttons, also no more voice commands. Tested a couple similar models that did have voice, but it feels like it has barely progressed, especially when compared to say Siri. We did't need all these dual touchscreens and such. We just needed the voice commands to get better. One insight I did gather was that my 2012's buttons were apparently costly to the manufacturer since they had to worry about the feel of the buttons, their layout had to be worked out, you have to make sure they hold up, it's moving pieces you need to quality control in your build, and of course if you ever want to redesign this cabin you have to do it all again for those faceplates. So touchscreens are cheaper. Which is probably why even though a lot of manufacturers probably know they could offer a better overall experience if they put more effort into the buttons, they go with the touch screen.

robomartin 6y ago

I have an admittedly simple minded opinion about this: If I can’t operate it without looking, it’s dangerous. Of course, there’s always a learning period. After that, with knobs and buttons, you don’t need to look (and sometimes very little). We have one vehicle with Apple Car Play. Once you understand the cognitive load required to operate certain functions it quickly becomes a scary thing to consider. A second simplistic perspective: If I can’t operate it without looking, while doing 120 at Willow Springs, it’s dangerous. Third perspective: I would not want touch screens on our Haas and Bridgeport CNC machines. It would be very dangerous. Why would I want one in a car. Touch screen UI’s are fragile and potentially dangerous because you don’t know what you are touching, the controls don’t maintain tactile state and it is too easy to click the wrong thing. I do understand the value for manufacturers. I have designed and worked on a range of knob-and-button and hybrid control panels, including one that went to space. Physical control panels are difficult and expensive to design and manufacture. They also require tons of testing because it’s a hard commitment. In sharp contrast to this, you can just throw a touch screen at something and worry about the UI later. Easily a 1000:1 development cost advantage for any non-trivial project.

gumby 6y ago

You don't have to have ADD to find these things hazardous. My 1980s Toyota heating controls had separate, independent switches for defrost vents, face vents, floor vents. My friend's US car had weird features like "bi-vent" with a slider switch. You had to look at it. I recently rented a Toyota and sometime since then they'd gone away from the simple controls that feel different and have some spacial analog. You can no longer manipulate any state beyond wipers, turn signal, and radio volume without looking away from the road.

MarkLowenstein 6y ago

Engineers have proven themselves unable to solve this. I will do so now: (1) have ONE pushable and turnable knob, somewhere - steering wheel, dash, doesn't matter (2) 25-30 one-word voice commands: "volume"/"louder"/"hotter"/"A-C"/"radio"/"front" Want to turn on the radio? Say "radio", push button. Louder? "louder", turn knob. Cooler? Say "A-C", push button, turn knob. "Fan", turn. Maybe some white noise feedback while turning it, to indicate whether you're in the low range or high range. Done!

lhorie 6y ago
God no. Have you actually tried using voice commands in a car? It just doesn't work. Also, I have a turnable+pushable knob in my car and it's frankly terrible because it's very easy to accidentally push when you're trying to turn. What is far easier to do is to make it so that turning a knob says via audio what action is selected. Then you press a different button to confirm.
- CharlesW 6y ago
  > Have you actually tried using voice commands in a car? It just doesn't work. I have 3 years of experience with a CarPlay-enabled car, and Siri mostly just works as a voice interface. (But to your point, car makers' home-grown solutions are almost comically bad.)
  - MarkLowenstein 6y ago
    I'm hoping that by offering simple and intuitive words we could have success where most have failed (overloaded so that hotter, temperature, colder, heat, heater are all recognized, but all mean the same thing).
  - lhorie 6y ago
    > car makers' home-grown solutions are almost comically bad Exactly. Judging by how they are managing to make the worst possible decisions wrt touchscreen offerings, I'm not holding my breath for siri-like voice activation from car makers

karaterobot 6y ago

As a designer, I complain about touch screens from the perspective of their awful usability and ergonomics. When that fails, I take a different tack, and praise the tactility, precision, and overall fit-and-finish represented by high quality physical knobs and buttons. So far, automakers have not taken notice, and I am beginning to think they don't much care what I think. I hope the author of this article gets more traction by being outraged about the accessibility concerns. That might work. Good idea!

TeMPOraL 6y ago
> So far, automakers have not taken notice, and I am beginning to think they don't much care what I think. On the one side, you have improved ergonomics and increased safety for the driver. But that needs to be weighed against: - Lower and more streamlined production costs, because if you stuff the UI into a touchscreen, all the car designers need to worry about is where to place a rectangular slab of glass; all UI design and adjustments can be made in parallel, likely by a contractor, and it has zero impact on manufacturing the car itself. - Better marketability, as you can present touchscreens as high tech (despite buying the cheapest possible ones that can render an image and occasionally register touch events). That other side benefits the vendor much more than user satisfaction.
- unityByFreedom 6y ago
  Nothing wrong with wooing tech enthusiasts, but when that comes at the expense of safety we can take a second look. These screens may contribute to more accidents and if research eventually shows this no one will want one. I don't see how screens reduce cost since software has become an added cost, and tactile buttons have worked at low cost for decades.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    > I don't see how screens reduce cost since software has become an added cost, and tactile buttons have worked at low cost for decades. Half of the software is already done (those touchscreens don't get programmed from scratch, there's usually Windows or Android in them). You can outsource making it. But most importantly, this decouples car's UI from the rest of the design work. With physical knobs, you have to design, place and route wiring for panels, which interferes with designing and placing and routing of everything else. You have to mind the BOM and manufacturing - maybe getting the kind of button your designer wants, in a kind of panel they want, is prohibitively expensive? Making any change in controls arrangement involves altering physical elements of the car, which may need coordination with other teams designing other parts of the interior. Touchscreen gives you a nice separation from all of this. From the POV of designing the rest of the car, all you need is to fit a glass slab somewhere, and route wiring to that single place. Then, the UI people can do whatever they want. Change shape, arrangement and color of buttons 20 times a day. They can work on it while the physical desing of the car is already finalized. Hell, they can redesign the UI even after cars have already started to roll off the line. This kind of flexibility and decoupling saves money.

BluSyn 6y ago

I disagree. I get into modern cars and there are so many single-use buttons and dials that I need a 30-page manual to figure out what they do. Only to find out it's something I would use at most once-per-decade. Touchscreens make this simpler IF they are done correctly. Therein lies the problem; most car makers can't design a good UI if they tried, because they are just so incredibly bad at designing software. The only exception is Tesla. Everyone I know who has actually tried driving one immediately changes their opinion about the touchscreen, because in the Tesla is actually works and doesn't feel like it was designed in 1995. Other car makers need to get their shit together on software; stop outsourcing, and try actually giving a damn about your product for a change.

sschueller 6y ago
Tesla tries so hard to be KITT from knight rider but if KITTs turbo boost botton would have been buried in a touch screen menu he would have crashed before Michael would have been able to press it. Tactile buttons are important and give you the ability to operate them blind. This is not yet possible with touch screens.
ohmaigad 6y ago
Except Tesla puts wiper speed (a thing you actually use while driving) on Model 3 in the touchscreen. That is the dumbest thing ever. Touchscreens are fine, but the controls you use while driving should be buttons or via steering wheel controls + HUD.
- deleted 6y ago
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benburton 6y ago
> most car makers can't design a good UI if they tried, because they are just so incredibly bad at designing software. Interface as a secondary concern to any other business function is historically a budget race-to-the-bottom. Just let Apple and Google design and implement everything with CarPlay/Android Automotive.

Brian_K_White 6y ago

I think it might be possible to make the touch screen safe by making it tactile. It can have possibly some permanently fixed borders and button areas of diiferent shapes or textures. It can also be made to vibrate such that you can feel when your finger is on some control spot on the screen. The touch firmware or higher level app software or maybe a touch library would have work a little differently to allow you to be touching the screen continuously as you feel around, and somehow register an intentional press some other way like pressure sensitivity, instead of just reacting instantly when you first touch anywhere, but this should be a solvable problem. It could provide haptic click feedback to presses too. There must be all kinds of ways to make the screen tactile like the old knobs and switches. And the point of bothering to make a touch screen you don't have to look at would be you still get software-defined-controls just like a regular visual app. You could make a set of hardware controls that phone apps could use as inputs, but you'd never think of everything that random apps might want. Maybe the right idea is both, a screen and some common hardware controls that the apps can use as well as the screen. Not just a set of undifferentiated border buttons that all feel the same and you have to read the screen to identify the buttons, but push-clickable rotating knobs, maybe with detents and end-stops. Play pause ff rw pickup/hangup controls. Mode selector: physical answer to a home screen, select between entertainment, nav, hvac... though I think main media volume and power, and hvac should have dedicated controls that don't change. You should always be able to shut the thing up in one step without navigating a menu, even a hardware mode selector. But now I've wandered into the weeds of details. The main point is, probably there is no getting rid of screens even if it would be better. And probably there is a way to make the screens ok instead of just wishing everyone would agree not to like them, by just making them tactile.

Scene_Cast2 6y ago
One way this was solved is the UI in airplane cockpits. For "Multi Function Displays" (or MFDs for short), they have a central screen, and buttons around the perimeter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-function_display https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-function_display I can't find any nicely linkable images, but you can search up "fighter jet mfd" for some examples.

crazygringo 6y ago

Obviously it seems intuitively plausible that touchscreens for drivers are dangerous. But it seems suspect to me that an author (such as this one) is arguing this based on hypothesizing, rather than on actual evidence, when cars with touchscreens have been around for years now. Surely there must be statistics showing or not showing correlations between touchscreens and accidents or deaths? Hell, for all I know they could counterintuitively keep us more alert with constant quick context-switching. So is there evidence they're dangerous? Are government agencies measuring it? Or are they not measuring it, which is a scandal? Are insurance companies measuring it? Are states not banning touchscreens because they're actually fine? Or are they not banning touchscreens out of incompetence or corruption? It's easy to hypothesize. But what's the evidence say?

moduspol 6y ago
Thank you for bringing some sanity to this thread. I think the vast majority of drivers are taking their eyes off the road to adjust media / climate controls even in cars with traditional tactile controls. It's a glance to see what the current setting is, or to make sure you hit the button you think you will, switching stations until you find the one you want, or more. That's not to say there are no drivers that exist that actually do operate these things without glancing off the road. I just think they're not nearly as common as these HN threads make them seem. And even cars with touchscreens often have voice controls, which allow for keeping your hands on the wheel in addition to your eyes on the road. Beats tactile controls even, for safety. We know the data's out there and we know there's a very vocal group that would pounce on any supportable conclusions. At some point, a lack of data is data. The Tesla Model 3 has been out since 2017, and despite thread after thread decrying the touchscreen, we've got no evidence of any measurable impact. Maybe it's worth burying this dead horse and moving on.
- crazygringo 6y ago
  That's a great point. There's truly no difference in terms of distraction between changing the AC with a medium-sized button on a touchscreen, or changing it with a small physical button or medium-sized knob in the center console where it's always been anyways. If anything, the touchscreen is usually higher than where half the physical controls in the center console usually were anyways, and therefore keeping more of the road in your peripheral vision anyways. There's a huge difference between traditional physical controls used constantly during driving that we find and use purely by touch (e.g. blinkers) and the massive grid of badly labeled radio and climate controls in the center console that always required you to look anyways.

toss1 6y ago

Spot On The entire purpose of designing pilot/driver interface is to reduce pilot/driver workload and improve focus Touchscreens do the exact opposite in the UI of any vehicle, and are inherently dangerous 1) They provide zero haptic feedback. There is no way for the driver to know without focusing their eyes on the screen if they have even touched the intended control. Then there is no way for them to tell if they have activated it. Contrast with almost any kind of mechanical switch or knob - after using it just a few times, you can reach for it, find it and activate it, without even glancing and barely thinking, and know that you succeeded. 2) any activity REQUIRES that you take your eyes off the road and mirrors for an extended period of time, and focus on a text and menu system. Contrast this with a properly setup analog gauge cluster where a quick glance will show all is good or highlight any off condition. The dials are set so the normal condition puts the needle straight-up, so anything off (e.g., over/under temp, voltage, etc.) immediately shows up. A good digital cluster has either good mimicry of analog gauges or large clear numbers clearly indicating the correct status at a glance. I could plausibly see an interface with hardware switches and controls that activated controls on a map, as at least that can be learned to use by feel. The knobs used by BMW and Mazda to control their screens are better than touch screens, but not yet there. And infotainment on top of that? Absolutely insane I literally have zero insight into what these "designers" are thinking, if they are. Based on some replacement prices I've seen, it does not seem that touchscreens are cheaper than switches and knobs. Customers think it is pretty or cool? IDK Just because you can, does not mean you should. Yet they do.