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I hope this business of yours works out because a laptop that isn't a piece of junk with too much stuff I don't need inflating the price is something I've been

I hope this business of yours works out because a laptop that isn't a piece of junk with too much stuff I don't need inflating the price is something I've been wanting for a long time.

throwaway894345 6y ago
I've still never seen a PC with a sane touchpad. That's the first issue in a long tail of grievances with the PC laptop ecosystem. EDIT: This isn't a generic "pro-Mac" dig, I want a nice PC laptop because I like dabbling with Linux; however, even the high end trackpads are clunky, even with the pre-installed Windows (never mind the eternal sadness that is Linux trackpad configuration).
- boogies 6y ago
  I’ve never understood why people⁰ care so much about trackpads. For working with text (including code) keyboards are better, and for gaming mice are better. Where I'm less sure is graphics and video, but it seems to me like specialized mice, graphics tablets, and other tools (eg. https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/keyboard https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/key... and https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/panels https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/pan...) are better. The only thing trackpads seem good at is browsing¹, which IMO should be a slightly glorified text task where Pentadacyl/luakit/qutebrowser/etc.² vi-style keybindings³ are best. Edits to respond: My point is that most tasks are either ① best done in a good text editing / development environment that works well with a specialized text input device — a keyboard — or ② would be better done with a specialized non-keyboard, non-trackpad input device (eg. a gaming mouse, graphics tablet, etc.) ⁰especially here on HN ¹including scrolling through PDFs and other documents ²or Zathura or less ³and/or/including PageUp/Down, Home, and End on luxurious large keyboards. Space and Shift+Space are okay on smaller ones.
  - the_hoser 6y ago
    When done right, they're wonderful. When done wrong, you end up creating custom keybindings to augment your workflow and lug a mouse around when that doesn't cut it. I've never seen a PC laptop do it right.
  - sixothree 6y ago
    Let me introduce you to the developers whose primary machine is a laptop without a mouse. Or a second screen.
    - Brakenshire 6y ago
      I actually use the touchpad for scrolling even when I’m using a mouse. It’s a much better interface for that purpose.
      - medstrom 6y ago
        Now I'm picturing a fat tungsten scrollwheel with a lot of inertia, that keeps spinning after you roll it.
    - dingaling 6y ago
      We used to have a far better solution for that, the pointer stick on Dell and IBM laptops. Direct control over the cursor without abrading your sweaty dirty finger skin over a frictive surface.
      - BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
        > a far better solution for that, the pointer stick on Dell and IBM laptops. Please search the web for "trackpoint drift".
        hackyhacky 6y ago
        This is not a problem on modern ThinkPads.
        BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
        > This is not a problem on modern ThinkPads. Funny, because I see people complaining about it still in 2020 on brand new Thinkpads. See for instance https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/ken18b/does_your_trackpoint_cause_pointer_drift/ https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/ken18b/does_your_... and the comments saying "They all drift, it's inherent by the sensor design", "It drifts on all my ThinkPads too", "Mine sometimes drifts". So unless your definition of modern is "ones that haven't been released yet", I think you might be wrong.
  - meetups323 6y ago
    For general working, trackpad is better. You can type and move the mouse without moving your hands.
    - dublinben 6y ago
      Did you mean a trackpoint? How can you type and move the mouse without moving your hands with a trackpad?
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        Not sure what you're confused about - your hand can hover over the keyboard and trackpad at the same time - they're right next to each other. I don't need to move my hands to go from one to another?
      - losvedir 6y ago
        Use your thumbs. The track pad is right below the space bar. Or, it's close enough that with hovering hands you can move back and forth between keys without looking. It's much faster to navigate a code base that way, I think, than trying to jump in vim lines at a time. A smooth, continuous scroll at easily controllable, different speeds does wonders for keeping continuity of a file in mind.
        boogies 6y ago
        > easily controllable, different speeds This is why I like having not just ^f/b full page, {}() paragraph and sentence, and of course j/k line scrolling but also ^u/d half-page scrolling so much that I mapped them it U and D in Zathura and Pentadactyl just for the centimeter of finger movement that saves.
        meetups323 6y ago
        The funny thing is (){} are much further from where your fingers are at home than the track pad is from your thumbs on space.
  - spaetzleesser 6y ago
    I had the same opinion until I used a MacBook. The trackpad works beautifully, the gestures make sense. It’s close to perfect. Even while on a docking station at my work desk I either the MacBook trackpad or the Magic Trackpad.
  - kayodelycaon 6y ago
    > I’ve never understood why people care so much about trackpads. Because most people don't use vim and mice aren't usable unless you're sitting at a flat surface with the room to hold one. If I'm using my laptop on the couch, a trackpad is probably the best solution. (Trackpoint gave my index finger RSI, when I was was being careful.)
    - neilparikh 6y ago
      > mice aren't usable unless you're sitting at a flat surface with the room to hold one Trackball mice a good solution to this problem. I had work on a bed without a table for 2 weeks last year, and a trackball mouse ended up working great (I didn't like using the trackpad, since switching from the keyboard to trackpad on a laptop is fairly uncomfortable if you do it often enough).
      - BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
        > a trackball mouse ended up working great (I didn't like using the trackpad, since switching from the keyboard to trackpad on a laptop is fairly uncomfortable Switching from the keyboard to something an inch away is uncomfortable for you, but switching from the keyboard to something a foot away is not? I don't get it.
        kayodelycaon 6y ago
        The angle on the trackpad can be uncomfortable when it’s sitting on your lap.
        BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
        I find that the larger trackpads on newer macbooks help with this a lot because the upper right corner of the pad is easily accessible at exactly the same angle of inward rotation by just pulling your elbow back along the side of your body. The Apple magic, I guess, is being able to have that without constant phantom palm touches. See https://imgur.com/a/qeRQIFD https://imgur.com/a/qeRQIFD An offset trackpad would also work, though obviously would be less friendly to lefties.
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    my point is that most tasks are either ① best done in a good text editing / development environment Your point is only correct if you replace the word "most" with "my." The fact that trackpads are hugely popular indicates that your needs are not typical, and you should not impose your choices upon others with different needs. would be better done with a specialized non-keyboard, non-trackpad input device Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can use to rotate objects on a screen. Or zoom into a specific object without affecting other objects on a screen. Or configure to have multiple hotspots that when tapped can trigger events or macros. Again, trackpads aren't your thing. Good for you. Other people love them, and millions of people get real work done on them each day.
    - boogies 6y ago
      >Your point is only correct if you replace the word "most" with "my." The fact that trackpads are hugely popular indicates that your needs are not typical, and you should not impose your choices upon others with different needs. But Apple trackpads are not hugely popular, they have a fraction (~10%, likely less) of the global market. Does the fact that non-Apple computers are hugely popular indicate that the needs of Apple trackpad fans are not typical, and they should not extol their virtues to others? > Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can use to rotate objects on a screen. Or zoom into a specific object without affecting other objects on a screen. Or configure to have multiple hotspots that when tapped can trigger events or macros. I’ve previously used a normal Apple mouse and keyboard to do all of these things in Adobe Photoshoshop and Illustrator on macOS and subsequently a random BestBuy mouse and ancient Compaq keyboard to do them in Gimp, Inkscape, and Blender on GNU (with xdotool for hot corners, which I’m counting as close enough to tapping hotspots). A graphics tablet would only work better. > Again, trackpads aren't your thing. Good for you. Other people love them, and millions of people get real work done on them each day. Again, non-Apple trackpads don’t seem to be your thing. Good for you. The majority of trackpad users use them every day.
      - reaperducer 6y ago
        I’ve previously used a normal Apple Magic mouse and keyboard to do all of these things If you've used a Magic Mouse, then you've used a mouse with a trackpad on its back. Glad you liked it! And no, rotating in Photoshop with the keyboard isn't the same as rotating with a trackpad. It's an entirely different process that is significantly less efficient, unless you already know the exact angle of rotation you want down to the 0.1°.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    > Trackpad vs keyboard ¿Por que no los dos? Seriously, I wasn't talking about replacing my keyboard with a trackpad. They are different devices with different purposes and are intended to be used together.
  - dopu 6y ago
    In my day job I'm constantly reading PDFs. Being able to zoom in/out, scroll, and move the cursor with such low effort can even bring me a little bit of joy. It's not really about what is most efficient. Computing should feel good. That's why it's hard for me to move away from Apple's trackpads.
    - boogies 6y ago
      > a little bit of joy is a good description of what I feel reading PDFs efficiently, near effortlessly (which to me is near the same thing), and comfortably (also similar in that it involves minimal reaching, but also includes automatic semi-smart dark theming, easy good zooming, etc.) with Zathura.
  - BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
    > I’ve never understood why people⁰ care so much about trackpads. ... would be better done with a specialized non-keyboard, non-trackpad input device So you want a specialized input devices for every task on a mobile device. That's an interesting choice. And I guess you also want to carry all these specialized devices around with you? > browsing¹, which IMO should be a slightly glorified text task where Pentadacyl/luakit/qutebrowser/etc.² vi-style keybindings³ are best Ok. Say you see a headline on HN that looks interesting, and you go to click on it. Wait, no, you...uhh...tab tab tab tab tab over to it and press enter to go to the comments page (like we all do) and start reading the comments. And, oh look, you want to respond to one of them. So you...uhh...tab tab...uhh...tab...tab tab tab tab tab tab tab...tab tab? Or you could just point and click. Your proposed critical tasks of shifting the viewport and appending text to the current cursor location meet approximately 0% of computing user needs. The vast majority of all computer interaction is putting the cursor in the right place in the first place. The keyboard is terrible for that, external devices encumber portability, vertical touch screens require significant muscle control and effort, and trackpoints drift and do fewer things while being worse at all of them.
    - boogies 6y ago
      > uhh...tab tab tab tab tab Please take a minute to type the name of any of the browsers I named into your favourite search engine or package manager and return when you know what we’re talking about. (This comment was made via Pentadactyl). > The vast majority of all computer interaction is putting the cursor in the right place in the first place. This is why it pains me to use browsers where I can’t tap [count]gi to focus input fields.
      - BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
        > This comment was made via Pentadactyl Enlighten us all. What exactly did you press and what mental decision and awareness process was required to do it starting from the front page? > [count]gi "[count]" sounds like one would need to know how many like things on the page precede the thing you're trying to get to. Thanks but no thanks. 150! Oops, 100! Oops, 130!
  - GuB-42 6y ago
    A friend of mine is a professional photographer, he is using his trackpad to process and edit his pictures. Hundreds of them per session. And it's not like he can't afford a mouse or even specialized hardware. And having tried Apple touchpads, they are actually good, so much that they released a standalone version for desktop computers. On every PC I have tried, at best, they provide you with a pointing device in case using a mouse is impractical. I don't intend to buy a Mac for several reason but I have to admit that their trackpads are not in the same league.
  - PhasmaFelis 6y ago
    > I’ve never understood why people⁰ care so much about trackpads. Because it's nice to be able to use my laptop without having to find a tabletop and dig out my mouse. In bed, on the couch, on a bus, as a passenger in a car. Smartphones have taken over a lot of those situations, but a small laptop is still much better for a lot of tasks. I don't use Macs anymore, but their touchpads are actually as precise as a good mouse, and it just feels really nice. Same thing with knobs and graphics tablets, though it's not a use case I have personally. A dedicated peripheral is probably more powerful and precise, but sometimes it's nice to use your laptop from your lap.
  - oh-4-fucks-sake 6y ago
    Agree that efficient development (regardless of IDE/editor) is done best using primarily keyboard. Also agree that detached keyboards and mice will almost always be superior to their on-board counterparts. But, I think we're being a wee bit cognitively dissonant if we tell ourselves notebook keyboards and trackpads don't receive a non-trivial amount of use--even from the best of us. Even more, why are keyboard and external-mouse purists even bothered with even owning a laptop if they rarely/ever intend to use the most major distinguishing features that separate them from desktops in the first place? But even if you don't agree with any of that, why shouldn't we still demand a damn-good version of a highly ubiquitous tool, even if we don't personally use it that often? (Especially since Apple has proven that it's possible.) On HN (and the rest of the dev community) are perhaps the most demanding critics of anything technology. "Server starts up 8% slower!--dogshit!" "New release consumes 5% more memory--are you kidding me!" "Battery lasts 25m shorter--I'm in tears!" "The new theme is highly disruptive to my workflow--OH THE HUMANITY." I'm not being critical of our being sticklers. We should be! That's our job! Our fellow devs care about quality; our users care about quality. We should care about what our users care about. We have the voices and power to advocate for good products for all that use technology. The trackpad will be a major way people interact with computers for a long time to come and I'm not prepared to hand-wave away the mediocre.
- mnahkies 6y ago
  Use the keyboard predominantly instead of the trackpad and problem mitigated ;) I've been using Linux exclusively on ~5 different laptops of varying quality the last few years and I haven't been able to relate to the frequent comments about trackpad support being poor - not sure if it's just I don't use it that much, or don't realize what I'm missing since I haven't used a modern macbook. My biggest gripe applies to all laptops and that's the insufficient ram offered on most models - IMO 16gb should be the baseline, and 32gb approaching normal with the demands of current software (yes software could be more efficient but this isn't the reality we find ourselves in)
  - frant-hartm 6y ago
    >don't realize what I'm missing since I haven't used a modern macbook That's what I thought as well, but every time I try to use my colleagues Mac it's a struggle, movement speed is really weird as it's not linear, tapping doesn't behave as one would expect (never had a problem with Linux or even windows with that). The whole thing is a weird button which presses when I don't want to. True, I have used it maybe for 10 mins in total in.my life, so that's probably the main issue (I hope for the sake of the people who actually use it). On the other hand I have seen long time users and it makes me cringe. What a pain, learn some shortcuts and use it for random text selection only.
    - wtallis 6y ago
      > movement speed is really weird as it's not linear, It really shouldn't be linear. That would force you to make unnecessary tradeoffs between precision and the ability to get the cursor from one side of the screen to the other in just one or two swipes. > tapping doesn't behave as one would expect (never had a problem with Linux or even windows with that). The whole thing is a weird button which presses when I don't want to. Tap to click is an option that can be toggled on and off, on every trackpad I've ever used. Additionally, Apple trackpads since 2015 let you adjust in software the amount of force required for a press on the trackpad to register as a click. > What a pain, learn some shortcuts and use it for random text selection only. I can just as easily turn this around: configure and learn a few multi-touch gestures and you won't have to keep moving your hand off the trackpad to perform keyboard shortcuts.
- Brakenshire 6y ago
  Looks like there’s some good progress for touchpad support on Linux: https://bill.harding.blog/2021/02/11/linux-touchpad-like-a-mac-update-firefox-gesture-support-goes-live/ https://bill.harding.blog/2021/02/11/linux-touchpad-like-a-m... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26102894 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26102894 Many millions of people will benefit, but the project only has 129 supporters, if anyone wants to chip in!
- the_hoser 6y ago
  The sad part is that it's not just a hardware problem. While most PC laptops have really terrible trackpad hardware, some do have pretty decent hardware. It's just that the software is still absolutely terrible. You can run Linux on a relatively modern Macbook, and the trackpad becomes terrible.
- zerocrates 6y ago
  I feel like the XPS 13 trackpad is fine, what's your beef with it?
  - kibwen 6y ago
    In terms of hardware, IMO my XPS 15's trackpad is superior to my MacBook Pro's trackpad. The gesture support from the OS obviously isn't as good, but the XPS sure does feel better to use.
    - indymike 6y ago
      Honestly, my xps is the only laptop that comes close to my macbooks... Yo be fair, the touch screen and pen on the XPS blow away the ones on the Macbook.
  - bscphil 6y ago
    XPS trackpads have always been number one, from the very beginning. I'm working with a 10 year old laptop and its trackpad has performed flawlessly and is superior to any MacBook I've ever used (but especially older ones). My XPS has the advantage of two physical buttons for left and right click. They require just the right amount of force to press (like a slightly softer mouse button with deeper travel). It makes dragging things around (which I do a lot because I don't use a tiling window manager) very easy. Which doesn't feel like something I should have to comment on, but doing this on a MacBook is pure suffering. Trying to hold down the giant button (which takes quite a bit of force) while trying to drag your finger... ugh. It's miserable. Because of the physical buttons I can actually play some games on my XPS without needing an external mouse (or putting up with misclicks) In terms of hardware, what people are looking for is mostly surface feel, size, features. It's the former where cheap laptops fall down. Most of the ones I've used really suck, actually. Some of them are bad enough that the manufacturers actually texture the surface to try to slow your finger down, I guess because the accuracy of the touchpad isn't very good. High end touchpads like the one on the XPS or MacBooks have flawless feel: extremely low friction surfaces. It's not commonly noticed, but software contributes at least as much to how a trackpad feels as hardware. Given the limitations of its hardware, I have no quarrel with Apple's software quality. (Though the defaults are weird, like not being able to tap-to-click. They really want you to have to use that damn button.) Windows has historically sucked at this. I've seen about half a dozen trackpads that seemed absolutely terrible, and no Windows settings could make them better. After moving them over to Linux (on the synaptics driver) they suddenly became quite okay to use, even if the hardware was crappy. I'm afraid this era might be ending, sadly. I've had nothing but bad experiences with libinput. It lacks the kind of configurability you need to improve on the performance of a bad touchpad. (It's even quite bad under Wayland for the XPS touchpad - you can't set the combination of low speed, high acceleration that feels natural to me for this touchpad.)
- mottosso 6y ago
  I felt that way until I got my hands on a Surface Book. They did a good job on that one, still holding up after 4+ years of constant use.
  - fortran77 6y ago
    I'm using a Surface Book 2 right now, and it's -- by far -- the best laptop I've ever owned.
  - Groxx 6y ago
    Yeah, the surface line seems to have quite-acceptable trackpads. I have an SP4, and the keyboard-cover's is... a bit strange to the touch (highly textured), but works reliably. Unlike so many other brands. The vast majority I've used have been an endless stream of frustration and flakiness.
    - ImaCake 6y ago
      I have an SP4 as well and enjoyed the touchpad on it. I don't think it is as good as the macbook one, but the surface makes up for this with the touch screen. I would often mix it up between screen and touchpad touches to navigate and I miss it now I am using a macbook.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - Groxx 6y ago
        Yea, I'm not actually all that fond of the SP4, but it has utterly convinced me that touchpad + touchscreen is massively superior to either one alone. It's so natural feeling.
  - thw0rted 6y ago
    Seconded. I couldn't stand using a touchpad at all until I got a Surface Book 2 for work. It's now the standard to which I hold all other touchpads.
- nkrisc 6y ago
  For whatever reason, I've never used a laptop that wasn't a MacBook that has had a trackpad anywhere as amazing as what Apple has done. I don't know if the problem is hardware, software, or both, but as a consumer I don't care. I'll never buy a non-Apple laptop until I can find one that has a trackpad as good or better. That's my personal requirement. On a personal laptop I always use the trackpad so I want it to be the best.
  - anuragsoni 6y ago
    > That's my personal requirement. On a personal laptop I always use the trackpad so I want it to be the best. 100%. On my personal devices I don't want to compromise on trackpad or keyboards (I like that apple went back on the butterfly keyboards). The rest of my comment is just my personal experience so take it with a grain of salt. I've found the trackpad experience on the XPS and Thinkpad X1 laptops to be excellent under linux. The libinput [1] drivers seem to work really well and the gesture support seems nice too. What I miss from MacBook's touchpad is force-touch. Not having to worry about which part of the touchpad i'm pressing was really nice when I used a macbook. I'm contemplating purchasing a m1 macbook air as my next laptop, but I'm also not sure i'd be willing to give up on being able to run linux natively on a laptop I buy with my own money. [1] https://github.com/wayland-project/libinput https://github.com/wayland-project/libinput
    - anuragsoni 6y ago
      I didn't mention this in my comment, but i use wayland on linux and i've found the touchpad experience to be nicer there compared to X11, even though both X11 and wayland sessions for Gnome use libinput. I don't know much about libinput to know why I feel a difference in my touchpad experience between X11 and wayland.
    - TimTheTinker 6y ago
      > I'm also not sure i'd be willing to give up on being able to run linux natively on a laptop I buy with my own money. May I suggest sponsoring Hector Martin on GitHub[0]? He’s working on building first-class support for the M1 architecture (including drivers) into Linux. [0] https://github.com/marcan https://github.com/marcan
- sudosteph 6y ago
  I'll be honest, I've used a laptop as a primary computing device my whole life - and I have no idea what a "sane touchpad" would even be. They really are so frequently bad that I can't imagine what a good one would be like. I mostly use PCs (often with Linux), but used a mac for work for while - and I can't really say I saw the appeal in that touchpad either. Besides issues that come from low-quality pads + linux drivers (ghost mouse movements as I type, stupid imprecision from weird acceleration setting) - I don't like the way that most touch pads feel cold and metallic, and how they always attract dust you can feel as you use. My solution has always been to just keep a wireless mouse with rechargable AA's in my backpack. If I'm using my laptop on a couch at home, I have a wooden lap desk with ample mouse space to accommodate it. Additionally, the thinkpad I have now has both an eraser mouse and touch screen + stylus (as well as a trackpad), so if I do have to leave my mouse at home, I at least have options. I like the eraser mouse because I don't have to move my fingers away from the keyboard - and even if it feels it takes slightly longer to move - it's more pleasant tactile experience for me.
  - solraph 6y ago
    I'm with you on this one. I just find them incredibly difficult to use long term, despite multiple years across the various Macs and PC laptops I've used. I strongly suspect most of the complaints about PC trackpads are a bit like Windows/Linux/Mac users complaining about the current font rendering on any of the others. I can't help wondering how much is just personal preference + a bit of echo chamber.
    - withmorten 6y ago
      Well actually, Win10 font rendering is broken, i.e. 1 and l look completely the same on Courier New on Win10, but not on Win7 ... there are years old bug reports (it broke in some feature update), but of course those have been ignored.
- RileyJames 6y ago
  Definitely felt the same way moving from MacBook Air to XPS (under linux), but eventually I found the right settings to completely remove accidental touches on the pad while typing and since then, pretty good, not bad, can’t complain. Cause actually, all them track pads are about the same.
- getcrunk 6y ago
  Have you used an xps? I really like my trackpad. Haven't use apple's
  - syspec 6y ago
    Have you used an Apple? Really like my trackpad. Haven't used XPS
  - taneq 6y ago
    I've used both (albeit the Mac was a 2010 Macbook Pro so they may have changed - the Dell is a 2019 XPS13 and is my current travel laptop) and I'd rate them roughly on par. The Macbook had slightly better accidental touch rejection iirc (eg. if you brush the touchpad while reaching for the keys to type) and slightly nicer build quality. The XPS is really nice though.
  - cam-perry 6y ago
    I have both laptops and both touchpads are really nice. Though Apple's is nicer for being bigger and I prefer their materials to the XPS. If you run linux on the XPS this project (https://github.com/iberianpig/fusuma https://github.com/iberianpig/fusuma) is great for configuring multi-touch gestures that work like the Mac.
- neverminder 6y ago
  My Dell Precision 7750 touchpad works flawlessly and I'm running Ubuntu. The touchpad is optimal size, similar to that of Apple's I think. It also has 3 physical buttons, middle click is my favorite which by default is configured to open a link in a new tab. Multipoint touch and gestures work fine as well, at least those that I use - two finger touch for right click menu and two finger gesture for scrolling. Because it's a rather new touchpad by Dell, Initially the physical right button didn't work, which was a bit annoying, but eventually the problem was solved with kernel update.
- pwthornton 6y ago
  I honestly don't know how people use PC laptops without an external mouse. It's incredible that the trackpads are still so bad. Can you spend a ton of money on a PC laptop and get a decent one? I have assumed it has been an issue with just using cheap parts, and it being hard to get people to pay for premium parts on PC laptops.
  - aksss 6y ago
    They aren’t that bad, let’s be real. Try the latest XPS 13, the trackpad is more than fine. Maybe not Apple great, but it’s perfectly fine. I could point to earlier makes/models that were fine too. It’s not going to make or break your decision on PC/Mac if you have Apple money to spend on a PC.
bscphil 6y ago
Hmm, not that it's "something you don't need", per se, but > 4TB or more of Gen4 NVMe storage Suggests to me that this will be targeted at the "money is no object" market. (And it might still be something you don't need, I keep all my media on a server, so 1TB would be more than sufficient, thank you very much.)
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jameshart 6y ago
This does not look like a pathway to reduce the cost of your laptop by throwing out junk you don’t need. This looks like every part will be more expensive due to the focus on sustainable materials, e-waste and modularization. If you’re price-focused, are you really willing to pay a premium for ethical sourcing and repairability on the subset of components you want to populate your laptop with?
- Jeff_Brown 6y ago
  The upgradeability could mean you save money in the long term even if each piece is substantially more expensive than its dispoable counterpart. Of course, asking people to trust that long-term calculus for a new product from a new company is nontrivial.

I hope this business of yours works out because a laptop that isn't a piece of junk with too much stuff I don't need inflating the price is something I've been wanting for a long time.

throwaway894345 6y ago

I've still never seen a PC with a sane touchpad. That's the first issue in a long tail of grievances with the PC laptop ecosystem. EDIT: This isn't a generic "pro-Mac" dig, I want a nice PC laptop because I like dabbling with Linux; however, even the high end trackpads are clunky, even with the pre-installed Windows (never mind the eternal sadness that is Linux trackpad configuration).

boogies 6y ago
I’ve never understood why people⁰ care so much about trackpads. For working with text (including code) keyboards are better, and for gaming mice are better. Where I'm less sure is graphics and video, but it seems to me like specialized mice, graphics tablets, and other tools (eg. https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/keyboard https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/key... and https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/panels https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/pan...) are better. The only thing trackpads seem good at is browsing¹, which IMO should be a slightly glorified text task where Pentadacyl/luakit/qutebrowser/etc.² vi-style keybindings³ are best. Edits to respond: My point is that most tasks are either ① best done in a good text editing / development environment that works well with a specialized text input device — a keyboard — or ② would be better done with a specialized non-keyboard, non-trackpad input device (eg. a gaming mouse, graphics tablet, etc.) ⁰especially here on HN ¹including scrolling through PDFs and other documents ²or Zathura or less ³and/or/including PageUp/Down, Home, and End on luxurious large keyboards. Space and Shift+Space are okay on smaller ones.
- the_hoser 6y ago
  When done right, they're wonderful. When done wrong, you end up creating custom keybindings to augment your workflow and lug a mouse around when that doesn't cut it. I've never seen a PC laptop do it right.
- sixothree 6y ago
  Let me introduce you to the developers whose primary machine is a laptop without a mouse. Or a second screen.
  - Brakenshire 6y ago
    I actually use the touchpad for scrolling even when I’m using a mouse. It’s a much better interface for that purpose.
    - medstrom 6y ago
      Now I'm picturing a fat tungsten scrollwheel with a lot of inertia, that keeps spinning after you roll it.
  - dingaling 6y ago
    We used to have a far better solution for that, the pointer stick on Dell and IBM laptops. Direct control over the cursor without abrading your sweaty dirty finger skin over a frictive surface.
    - BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
      > a far better solution for that, the pointer stick on Dell and IBM laptops. Please search the web for "trackpoint drift".
      - hackyhacky 6y ago
        This is not a problem on modern ThinkPads.
        BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
        > This is not a problem on modern ThinkPads. Funny, because I see people complaining about it still in 2020 on brand new Thinkpads. See for instance https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/ken18b/does_your_trackpoint_cause_pointer_drift/ https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/ken18b/does_your_... and the comments saying "They all drift, it's inherent by the sensor design", "It drifts on all my ThinkPads too", "Mine sometimes drifts". So unless your definition of modern is "ones that haven't been released yet", I think you might be wrong.
- meetups323 6y ago
  For general working, trackpad is better. You can type and move the mouse without moving your hands.
  - dublinben 6y ago
    Did you mean a trackpoint? How can you type and move the mouse without moving your hands with a trackpad?
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      Not sure what you're confused about - your hand can hover over the keyboard and trackpad at the same time - they're right next to each other. I don't need to move my hands to go from one to another?
    - losvedir 6y ago
      Use your thumbs. The track pad is right below the space bar. Or, it's close enough that with hovering hands you can move back and forth between keys without looking. It's much faster to navigate a code base that way, I think, than trying to jump in vim lines at a time. A smooth, continuous scroll at easily controllable, different speeds does wonders for keeping continuity of a file in mind.
      - boogies 6y ago
        > easily controllable, different speeds This is why I like having not just ^f/b full page, {}() paragraph and sentence, and of course j/k line scrolling but also ^u/d half-page scrolling so much that I mapped them it U and D in Zathura and Pentadactyl just for the centimeter of finger movement that saves.
        meetups323 6y ago
        The funny thing is (){} are much further from where your fingers are at home than the track pad is from your thumbs on space.
- spaetzleesser 6y ago
  I had the same opinion until I used a MacBook. The trackpad works beautifully, the gestures make sense. It’s close to perfect. Even while on a docking station at my work desk I either the MacBook trackpad or the Magic Trackpad.
- kayodelycaon 6y ago
  > I’ve never understood why people care so much about trackpads. Because most people don't use vim and mice aren't usable unless you're sitting at a flat surface with the room to hold one. If I'm using my laptop on the couch, a trackpad is probably the best solution. (Trackpoint gave my index finger RSI, when I was was being careful.)
  - neilparikh 6y ago
    > mice aren't usable unless you're sitting at a flat surface with the room to hold one Trackball mice a good solution to this problem. I had work on a bed without a table for 2 weeks last year, and a trackball mouse ended up working great (I didn't like using the trackpad, since switching from the keyboard to trackpad on a laptop is fairly uncomfortable if you do it often enough).
    - BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
      > a trackball mouse ended up working great (I didn't like using the trackpad, since switching from the keyboard to trackpad on a laptop is fairly uncomfortable Switching from the keyboard to something an inch away is uncomfortable for you, but switching from the keyboard to something a foot away is not? I don't get it.
      - kayodelycaon 6y ago
        The angle on the trackpad can be uncomfortable when it’s sitting on your lap.
        BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
        I find that the larger trackpads on newer macbooks help with this a lot because the upper right corner of the pad is easily accessible at exactly the same angle of inward rotation by just pulling your elbow back along the side of your body. The Apple magic, I guess, is being able to have that without constant phantom palm touches. See https://imgur.com/a/qeRQIFD https://imgur.com/a/qeRQIFD An offset trackpad would also work, though obviously would be less friendly to lefties.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  my point is that most tasks are either ① best done in a good text editing / development environment Your point is only correct if you replace the word "most" with "my." The fact that trackpads are hugely popular indicates that your needs are not typical, and you should not impose your choices upon others with different needs. would be better done with a specialized non-keyboard, non-trackpad input device Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can use to rotate objects on a screen. Or zoom into a specific object without affecting other objects on a screen. Or configure to have multiple hotspots that when tapped can trigger events or macros. Again, trackpads aren't your thing. Good for you. Other people love them, and millions of people get real work done on them each day.
  - boogies 6y ago
    >Your point is only correct if you replace the word "most" with "my." The fact that trackpads are hugely popular indicates that your needs are not typical, and you should not impose your choices upon others with different needs. But Apple trackpads are not hugely popular, they have a fraction (~10%, likely less) of the global market. Does the fact that non-Apple computers are hugely popular indicate that the needs of Apple trackpad fans are not typical, and they should not extol their virtues to others? > Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can use to rotate objects on a screen. Or zoom into a specific object without affecting other objects on a screen. Or configure to have multiple hotspots that when tapped can trigger events or macros. I’ve previously used a normal Apple mouse and keyboard to do all of these things in Adobe Photoshoshop and Illustrator on macOS and subsequently a random BestBuy mouse and ancient Compaq keyboard to do them in Gimp, Inkscape, and Blender on GNU (with xdotool for hot corners, which I’m counting as close enough to tapping hotspots). A graphics tablet would only work better. > Again, trackpads aren't your thing. Good for you. Other people love them, and millions of people get real work done on them each day. Again, non-Apple trackpads don’t seem to be your thing. Good for you. The majority of trackpad users use them every day.
    - reaperducer 6y ago
      I’ve previously used a normal Apple Magic mouse and keyboard to do all of these things If you've used a Magic Mouse, then you've used a mouse with a trackpad on its back. Glad you liked it! And no, rotating in Photoshop with the keyboard isn't the same as rotating with a trackpad. It's an entirely different process that is significantly less efficient, unless you already know the exact angle of rotation you want down to the 0.1°.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  > Trackpad vs keyboard ¿Por que no los dos? Seriously, I wasn't talking about replacing my keyboard with a trackpad. They are different devices with different purposes and are intended to be used together.
- dopu 6y ago
  In my day job I'm constantly reading PDFs. Being able to zoom in/out, scroll, and move the cursor with such low effort can even bring me a little bit of joy. It's not really about what is most efficient. Computing should feel good. That's why it's hard for me to move away from Apple's trackpads.
  - boogies 6y ago
    > a little bit of joy is a good description of what I feel reading PDFs efficiently, near effortlessly (which to me is near the same thing), and comfortably (also similar in that it involves minimal reaching, but also includes automatic semi-smart dark theming, easy good zooming, etc.) with Zathura.
- BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
  > I’ve never understood why people⁰ care so much about trackpads. ... would be better done with a specialized non-keyboard, non-trackpad input device So you want a specialized input devices for every task on a mobile device. That's an interesting choice. And I guess you also want to carry all these specialized devices around with you? > browsing¹, which IMO should be a slightly glorified text task where Pentadacyl/luakit/qutebrowser/etc.² vi-style keybindings³ are best Ok. Say you see a headline on HN that looks interesting, and you go to click on it. Wait, no, you...uhh...tab tab tab tab tab over to it and press enter to go to the comments page (like we all do) and start reading the comments. And, oh look, you want to respond to one of them. So you...uhh...tab tab...uhh...tab...tab tab tab tab tab tab tab...tab tab? Or you could just point and click. Your proposed critical tasks of shifting the viewport and appending text to the current cursor location meet approximately 0% of computing user needs. The vast majority of all computer interaction is putting the cursor in the right place in the first place. The keyboard is terrible for that, external devices encumber portability, vertical touch screens require significant muscle control and effort, and trackpoints drift and do fewer things while being worse at all of them.
  - boogies 6y ago
    > uhh...tab tab tab tab tab Please take a minute to type the name of any of the browsers I named into your favourite search engine or package manager and return when you know what we’re talking about. (This comment was made via Pentadactyl). > The vast majority of all computer interaction is putting the cursor in the right place in the first place. This is why it pains me to use browsers where I can’t tap [count]gi to focus input fields.
    - BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
      > This comment was made via Pentadactyl Enlighten us all. What exactly did you press and what mental decision and awareness process was required to do it starting from the front page? > [count]gi "[count]" sounds like one would need to know how many like things on the page precede the thing you're trying to get to. Thanks but no thanks. 150! Oops, 100! Oops, 130!
- GuB-42 6y ago
  A friend of mine is a professional photographer, he is using his trackpad to process and edit his pictures. Hundreds of them per session. And it's not like he can't afford a mouse or even specialized hardware. And having tried Apple touchpads, they are actually good, so much that they released a standalone version for desktop computers. On every PC I have tried, at best, they provide you with a pointing device in case using a mouse is impractical. I don't intend to buy a Mac for several reason but I have to admit that their trackpads are not in the same league.
- PhasmaFelis 6y ago
  > I’ve never understood why people⁰ care so much about trackpads. Because it's nice to be able to use my laptop without having to find a tabletop and dig out my mouse. In bed, on the couch, on a bus, as a passenger in a car. Smartphones have taken over a lot of those situations, but a small laptop is still much better for a lot of tasks. I don't use Macs anymore, but their touchpads are actually as precise as a good mouse, and it just feels really nice. Same thing with knobs and graphics tablets, though it's not a use case I have personally. A dedicated peripheral is probably more powerful and precise, but sometimes it's nice to use your laptop from your lap.
- oh-4-fucks-sake 6y ago
  Agree that efficient development (regardless of IDE/editor) is done best using primarily keyboard. Also agree that detached keyboards and mice will almost always be superior to their on-board counterparts. But, I think we're being a wee bit cognitively dissonant if we tell ourselves notebook keyboards and trackpads don't receive a non-trivial amount of use--even from the best of us. Even more, why are keyboard and external-mouse purists even bothered with even owning a laptop if they rarely/ever intend to use the most major distinguishing features that separate them from desktops in the first place? But even if you don't agree with any of that, why shouldn't we still demand a damn-good version of a highly ubiquitous tool, even if we don't personally use it that often? (Especially since Apple has proven that it's possible.) On HN (and the rest of the dev community) are perhaps the most demanding critics of anything technology. "Server starts up 8% slower!--dogshit!" "New release consumes 5% more memory--are you kidding me!" "Battery lasts 25m shorter--I'm in tears!" "The new theme is highly disruptive to my workflow--OH THE HUMANITY." I'm not being critical of our being sticklers. We should be! That's our job! Our fellow devs care about quality; our users care about quality. We should care about what our users care about. We have the voices and power to advocate for good products for all that use technology. The trackpad will be a major way people interact with computers for a long time to come and I'm not prepared to hand-wave away the mediocre.
mnahkies 6y ago
Use the keyboard predominantly instead of the trackpad and problem mitigated ;) I've been using Linux exclusively on ~5 different laptops of varying quality the last few years and I haven't been able to relate to the frequent comments about trackpad support being poor - not sure if it's just I don't use it that much, or don't realize what I'm missing since I haven't used a modern macbook. My biggest gripe applies to all laptops and that's the insufficient ram offered on most models - IMO 16gb should be the baseline, and 32gb approaching normal with the demands of current software (yes software could be more efficient but this isn't the reality we find ourselves in)
- frant-hartm 6y ago
  >don't realize what I'm missing since I haven't used a modern macbook That's what I thought as well, but every time I try to use my colleagues Mac it's a struggle, movement speed is really weird as it's not linear, tapping doesn't behave as one would expect (never had a problem with Linux or even windows with that). The whole thing is a weird button which presses when I don't want to. True, I have used it maybe for 10 mins in total in.my life, so that's probably the main issue (I hope for the sake of the people who actually use it). On the other hand I have seen long time users and it makes me cringe. What a pain, learn some shortcuts and use it for random text selection only.
  - wtallis 6y ago
    > movement speed is really weird as it's not linear, It really shouldn't be linear. That would force you to make unnecessary tradeoffs between precision and the ability to get the cursor from one side of the screen to the other in just one or two swipes. > tapping doesn't behave as one would expect (never had a problem with Linux or even windows with that). The whole thing is a weird button which presses when I don't want to. Tap to click is an option that can be toggled on and off, on every trackpad I've ever used. Additionally, Apple trackpads since 2015 let you adjust in software the amount of force required for a press on the trackpad to register as a click. > What a pain, learn some shortcuts and use it for random text selection only. I can just as easily turn this around: configure and learn a few multi-touch gestures and you won't have to keep moving your hand off the trackpad to perform keyboard shortcuts.
Brakenshire 6y ago
Looks like there’s some good progress for touchpad support on Linux: https://bill.harding.blog/2021/02/11/linux-touchpad-like-a-mac-update-firefox-gesture-support-goes-live/ https://bill.harding.blog/2021/02/11/linux-touchpad-like-a-m... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26102894 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26102894 Many millions of people will benefit, but the project only has 129 supporters, if anyone wants to chip in!
the_hoser 6y ago
The sad part is that it's not just a hardware problem. While most PC laptops have really terrible trackpad hardware, some do have pretty decent hardware. It's just that the software is still absolutely terrible. You can run Linux on a relatively modern Macbook, and the trackpad becomes terrible.
zerocrates 6y ago
I feel like the XPS 13 trackpad is fine, what's your beef with it?
- kibwen 6y ago
  In terms of hardware, IMO my XPS 15's trackpad is superior to my MacBook Pro's trackpad. The gesture support from the OS obviously isn't as good, but the XPS sure does feel better to use.
  - indymike 6y ago
    Honestly, my xps is the only laptop that comes close to my macbooks... Yo be fair, the touch screen and pen on the XPS blow away the ones on the Macbook.
- bscphil 6y ago
  XPS trackpads have always been number one, from the very beginning. I'm working with a 10 year old laptop and its trackpad has performed flawlessly and is superior to any MacBook I've ever used (but especially older ones). My XPS has the advantage of two physical buttons for left and right click. They require just the right amount of force to press (like a slightly softer mouse button with deeper travel). It makes dragging things around (which I do a lot because I don't use a tiling window manager) very easy. Which doesn't feel like something I should have to comment on, but doing this on a MacBook is pure suffering. Trying to hold down the giant button (which takes quite a bit of force) while trying to drag your finger... ugh. It's miserable. Because of the physical buttons I can actually play some games on my XPS without needing an external mouse (or putting up with misclicks) In terms of hardware, what people are looking for is mostly surface feel, size, features. It's the former where cheap laptops fall down. Most of the ones I've used really suck, actually. Some of them are bad enough that the manufacturers actually texture the surface to try to slow your finger down, I guess because the accuracy of the touchpad isn't very good. High end touchpads like the one on the XPS or MacBooks have flawless feel: extremely low friction surfaces. It's not commonly noticed, but software contributes at least as much to how a trackpad feels as hardware. Given the limitations of its hardware, I have no quarrel with Apple's software quality. (Though the defaults are weird, like not being able to tap-to-click. They really want you to have to use that damn button.) Windows has historically sucked at this. I've seen about half a dozen trackpads that seemed absolutely terrible, and no Windows settings could make them better. After moving them over to Linux (on the synaptics driver) they suddenly became quite okay to use, even if the hardware was crappy. I'm afraid this era might be ending, sadly. I've had nothing but bad experiences with libinput. It lacks the kind of configurability you need to improve on the performance of a bad touchpad. (It's even quite bad under Wayland for the XPS touchpad - you can't set the combination of low speed, high acceleration that feels natural to me for this touchpad.)
mottosso 6y ago
I felt that way until I got my hands on a Surface Book. They did a good job on that one, still holding up after 4+ years of constant use.
- fortran77 6y ago
  I'm using a Surface Book 2 right now, and it's -- by far -- the best laptop I've ever owned.
- Groxx 6y ago
  Yeah, the surface line seems to have quite-acceptable trackpads. I have an SP4, and the keyboard-cover's is... a bit strange to the touch (highly textured), but works reliably. Unlike so many other brands. The vast majority I've used have been an endless stream of frustration and flakiness.
  - ImaCake 6y ago
    I have an SP4 as well and enjoyed the touchpad on it. I don't think it is as good as the macbook one, but the surface makes up for this with the touch screen. I would often mix it up between screen and touchpad touches to navigate and I miss it now I am using a macbook.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - Groxx 6y ago
      Yea, I'm not actually all that fond of the SP4, but it has utterly convinced me that touchpad + touchscreen is massively superior to either one alone. It's so natural feeling.
- thw0rted 6y ago
  Seconded. I couldn't stand using a touchpad at all until I got a Surface Book 2 for work. It's now the standard to which I hold all other touchpads.
nkrisc 6y ago
For whatever reason, I've never used a laptop that wasn't a MacBook that has had a trackpad anywhere as amazing as what Apple has done. I don't know if the problem is hardware, software, or both, but as a consumer I don't care. I'll never buy a non-Apple laptop until I can find one that has a trackpad as good or better. That's my personal requirement. On a personal laptop I always use the trackpad so I want it to be the best.
- anuragsoni 6y ago
  > That's my personal requirement. On a personal laptop I always use the trackpad so I want it to be the best. 100%. On my personal devices I don't want to compromise on trackpad or keyboards (I like that apple went back on the butterfly keyboards). The rest of my comment is just my personal experience so take it with a grain of salt. I've found the trackpad experience on the XPS and Thinkpad X1 laptops to be excellent under linux. The libinput [1] drivers seem to work really well and the gesture support seems nice too. What I miss from MacBook's touchpad is force-touch. Not having to worry about which part of the touchpad i'm pressing was really nice when I used a macbook. I'm contemplating purchasing a m1 macbook air as my next laptop, but I'm also not sure i'd be willing to give up on being able to run linux natively on a laptop I buy with my own money. [1] https://github.com/wayland-project/libinput https://github.com/wayland-project/libinput
  - anuragsoni 6y ago
    I didn't mention this in my comment, but i use wayland on linux and i've found the touchpad experience to be nicer there compared to X11, even though both X11 and wayland sessions for Gnome use libinput. I don't know much about libinput to know why I feel a difference in my touchpad experience between X11 and wayland.
  - TimTheTinker 6y ago
    > I'm also not sure i'd be willing to give up on being able to run linux natively on a laptop I buy with my own money. May I suggest sponsoring Hector Martin on GitHub[0]? He’s working on building first-class support for the M1 architecture (including drivers) into Linux. [0] https://github.com/marcan https://github.com/marcan
sudosteph 6y ago
I'll be honest, I've used a laptop as a primary computing device my whole life - and I have no idea what a "sane touchpad" would even be. They really are so frequently bad that I can't imagine what a good one would be like. I mostly use PCs (often with Linux), but used a mac for work for while - and I can't really say I saw the appeal in that touchpad either. Besides issues that come from low-quality pads + linux drivers (ghost mouse movements as I type, stupid imprecision from weird acceleration setting) - I don't like the way that most touch pads feel cold and metallic, and how they always attract dust you can feel as you use. My solution has always been to just keep a wireless mouse with rechargable AA's in my backpack. If I'm using my laptop on a couch at home, I have a wooden lap desk with ample mouse space to accommodate it. Additionally, the thinkpad I have now has both an eraser mouse and touch screen + stylus (as well as a trackpad), so if I do have to leave my mouse at home, I at least have options. I like the eraser mouse because I don't have to move my fingers away from the keyboard - and even if it feels it takes slightly longer to move - it's more pleasant tactile experience for me.
- solraph 6y ago
  I'm with you on this one. I just find them incredibly difficult to use long term, despite multiple years across the various Macs and PC laptops I've used. I strongly suspect most of the complaints about PC trackpads are a bit like Windows/Linux/Mac users complaining about the current font rendering on any of the others. I can't help wondering how much is just personal preference + a bit of echo chamber.
  - withmorten 6y ago
    Well actually, Win10 font rendering is broken, i.e. 1 and l look completely the same on Courier New on Win10, but not on Win7 ... there are years old bug reports (it broke in some feature update), but of course those have been ignored.
RileyJames 6y ago
Definitely felt the same way moving from MacBook Air to XPS (under linux), but eventually I found the right settings to completely remove accidental touches on the pad while typing and since then, pretty good, not bad, can’t complain. Cause actually, all them track pads are about the same.
getcrunk 6y ago
Have you used an xps? I really like my trackpad. Haven't use apple's
- syspec 6y ago
  Have you used an Apple? Really like my trackpad. Haven't used XPS
- taneq 6y ago
  I've used both (albeit the Mac was a 2010 Macbook Pro so they may have changed - the Dell is a 2019 XPS13 and is my current travel laptop) and I'd rate them roughly on par. The Macbook had slightly better accidental touch rejection iirc (eg. if you brush the touchpad while reaching for the keys to type) and slightly nicer build quality. The XPS is really nice though.
- cam-perry 6y ago
  I have both laptops and both touchpads are really nice. Though Apple's is nicer for being bigger and I prefer their materials to the XPS. If you run linux on the XPS this project (https://github.com/iberianpig/fusuma https://github.com/iberianpig/fusuma) is great for configuring multi-touch gestures that work like the Mac.
neverminder 6y ago
My Dell Precision 7750 touchpad works flawlessly and I'm running Ubuntu. The touchpad is optimal size, similar to that of Apple's I think. It also has 3 physical buttons, middle click is my favorite which by default is configured to open a link in a new tab. Multipoint touch and gestures work fine as well, at least those that I use - two finger touch for right click menu and two finger gesture for scrolling. Because it's a rather new touchpad by Dell, Initially the physical right button didn't work, which was a bit annoying, but eventually the problem was solved with kernel update.
pwthornton 6y ago
I honestly don't know how people use PC laptops without an external mouse. It's incredible that the trackpads are still so bad. Can you spend a ton of money on a PC laptop and get a decent one? I have assumed it has been an issue with just using cheap parts, and it being hard to get people to pay for premium parts on PC laptops.
- aksss 6y ago
  They aren’t that bad, let’s be real. Try the latest XPS 13, the trackpad is more than fine. Maybe not Apple great, but it’s perfectly fine. I could point to earlier makes/models that were fine too. It’s not going to make or break your decision on PC/Mac if you have Apple money to spend on a PC.

bscphil 6y ago

Hmm, not that it's "something you don't need", per se, but > 4TB or more of Gen4 NVMe storage Suggests to me that this will be targeted at the "money is no object" market. (And it might still be something you don't need, I keep all my media on a server, so 1TB would be more than sufficient, thank you very much.)

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jameshart 6y ago

This does not look like a pathway to reduce the cost of your laptop by throwing out junk you don’t need. This looks like every part will be more expensive due to the focus on sustainable materials, e-waste and modularization. If you’re price-focused, are you really willing to pay a premium for ethical sourcing and repairability on the subset of components you want to populate your laptop with?

Jeff_Brown 6y ago
The upgradeability could mean you save money in the long term even if each piece is substantially more expensive than its dispoable counterpart. Of course, asking people to trust that long-term calculus for a new product from a new company is nontrivial.